Author Topic: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?  (Read 117135 times)

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Offline Lightages

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Where did the first screen shot come from? I have seen the 1mS spec in the 87V manual, but I am not familiar with the 250uS spec.
 

Offline Muxr

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Offline Lightages

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Thank you.  :)
 

Offline Muxr

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No problemo  :-DMM
 

Offline Lightages

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No problemo  :-DMM

Is that an obscure reference to WKRP? if so  :-+ :-+ :-+
 

Offline Muxr

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No problemo  :-DMM

Is that an obscure reference to WKRP? if so  :-+ :-+ :-+
No, sorry, I say it all the time..  :)
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Interesting thread to read considering I have a Brymen BM869S coming in soon for review! I used to have an 87V but sold it a while back. It was a nice meter, solidly built but at the same time didn't feel like anything super special. If anything felt a bit dated. It's kinda like a 1990s Honda Civic. Nothing special stands out but you can run that bastard in to the ground and that is why it has the good reputation that it has. It doesn't feel like it was ever intended for real electronics work, more for industrial electrician work but there is nothign wrong with that.

As for latched/unlatched I wish there was a selectable option because there are times I like each.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline Muxr

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Interesting thread to read considering I have a Brymen BM869S coming in soon for review! I used to have an 87V but sold it a while back. It was a nice meter, solidly built but at the same time didn't feel like anything super special. If anything felt a bit dated. It's kinda like a 1990s Honda Civic. Nothing special stands out but you can run that bastard in to the ground and that is why it has the good reputation that it has. It doesn't feel like it was ever intended for real electronics work, more for industrial electrician work but there is nothign wrong with that.

As for latched/unlatched I wish there was a selectable option because there are times I like each.
87V's biggest strength is that it has a simple UI. For a day to day meter I'd take an 87V over a "modern" Fluke 287 exactly for that reason. Can't think of an outdated feature about it. The whole point of it is a great all around easy to use and fast meter with a 400 hour battery life. It's as dependable as it gets. Besides can't think of a single "modern" essential feature it lacks.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #158 on: August 18, 2015, 01:16:29 am »

The retail price of the 87v is $300-350. Doesn't matter what you got it for on eBay using buy it now when talking about regular price.

Also the bm869 is $230. http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/

Is there a distributor in the USA?  If not, any reason why?
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #159 on: August 18, 2015, 01:26:49 am »

The retail price of the 87v is $300-350. Doesn't matter what you got it for on eBay using buy it now when talking about regular price.

Also the bm869 is $230. http://www.tme.eu/en/details/bm869/portable-digital-multimeters/brymen/bm869s/

Is there a distributor in the USA?  If not, any reason why?
Currently, there isn't a Brymen distributor in the US.

I'm not sure they actually have distributors at all. But there may also be non-compete agreement/s with their ODM customers that sell in the US, such as Greenlee and Mastech, that would prevent an someone selling them here under the Brymen label.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #160 on: August 18, 2015, 01:57:56 am »
Is there a re-branded version of this meter?   I looked and did not find one.   

Any problems with using TME? 
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #161 on: August 18, 2015, 02:06:41 am »
Is there a re-branded version of this meter?   I looked and did not find one.   

Any problems with using TME?

Greenlee DM-860A is a rebranded Brymen BM869S. It is more expensive but it comes with a lifetime warranty.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #162 on: August 18, 2015, 03:46:45 am »
Thanks.   I see a new home meter in my future....
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline retiredcaps

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #163 on: August 18, 2015, 03:57:02 am »
Thanks.   I see a new home meter in my future....
I have brought this up before in other threads, but there is no quantifiable answer that has been given.  If you buy a Greenlee, ask the authorized dealer this.

In terms of years, what does Greenlee's multimeter lifetime warranty mean?  For example, with a Fluke 87V, you get a minimum of 10 years warranty.  This is clearly written right on the 87V manual.

Where on Greenlee's website is a written policy on the number of years?

Weasel wording, marketing brochures do not count.  What is it in number of years?
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #164 on: August 18, 2015, 04:49:23 am »
Quote
For questions regarding this policy, contact:
Customer Support · 1-800-435-0786

I assume you called them.  What did they say?     I also put in a request for that and along with a few other questions I have about this meter.  I'll let you know their response.   

Looks like about $100 increase from Greenlee using Amazon.   That's a pretty good profit.  I wonder if it is the exact same meter besides the case color and markings.   
More on par with what I was wanting from Fluke.   To get the basic AC+DC put me into the slow booting,  power starved unit.    Dave's review on it was helpful.   

« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 05:11:52 am by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline Lightages

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Offline retiredcaps

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #166 on: August 18, 2015, 05:35:51 am »
Quote
For questions regarding this policy, contact:
Customer Support · 1-800-435-0786

I assume you called them.  What did they say?
A verbal response or written email response from one customer service support personnel is NOT the same as what should be clearly written on Greenlee's website.

Imagine calling Greenlee 15 months later for a problem and saying well customer support person xyz back in Aug 2015 told me it was "lifetime" and then being told by customer support person abc saying that xyz no longer works here and that he was wrong.

Customer support personnel should send/refer to a link on their public website that clearly states the warranty in terms on number of years.

My question to Greenlee is a simple one?  How many years is a Greenlee multimeter under warranty?  1? 5? 10?

Their manual states "useful life".  Useful life is subject to wide interpretation and IMHO weasel wording.

PS. I see a lot of misinformation regarding Fluke multimeters with respect to warranty.  Many people incorrectly assume/state how Fluke's warranty work and buy based on those incorrect assumptions.  These assumptions are also being made with Greenlee products.

PPS. I have no financial affiliation with Fluke and/or Greenlee.  All I'm trying to do is find a concrete answer so others can make an informed decision when choosing their multimeter.  I could care less what people buy as long as it meets their requirements.
 

Offline Robomeds

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #167 on: August 18, 2015, 05:37:41 am »
Way late to this party but why should that stop me. 

I've had a number of meters recently (buying and selling on ebay when I find deals really helps).  What I've found is the 87 just seems to be a meter that never disappoints*.  I have an 87-5 and had an 87-4, 87-3 and 87-1.  I've also had a number of other Flukes including several 11x series, 170 series and older models.  I have not used the current crop of larger Brymens like the 869.  Looks nice... looks big.  I have used the Brymen designed Amprobe AM-270 (older design) and the Greenlee 200a (smaller, current Brymen).  I have real trouble suggesting someone gets a Fluke over a Brymen if they are going out and paying sticker.  Even on ebay where deals can be had Brymen has been better for me.  I found a like new AM-270 for $40.  My Greenless 200a was almost free.  It was given to me because it didn't work.  Turns out the trace to the ground lug was blown.  A bit of solder and a wire later and the thing works again.**  So having used those as well as my Metrix and some others I just feel like Fluke, the 87 in particular seems to rarely disappoint.  The 87 just seems to work right.  The display seems to show just what I want to see and nothing else.  The bar graph seems to move quickly and in all modes.  The Greenless (small Brymen) seems to have a slow graph update speed.  The bends on the leads aways seem to stick out over the edge.  The switch doesn't feel as nice.  These are all trivial things and it's worth noting they don't require you to pull the case appear to replace fuses.  Still, the 87 just seems to feel right, the display works nicely in all modes.  It's all non-specific stuff but, and I hate to say this, it's a bit like Apple in that you get the feeling if a feature was left out it was because it wasn't needed. 

In comparing the electrician Flukes the Brymen I actually prefer the Brymens.  Cheaper and I feel like they do a bit more stuff for the same money.  The Fluke wins in build quality but the Greenlee's probes are better (that seems to be a reseller specific choice).  However, the Greenlee just seems to work well as an electricians meter.  Things change when we step up to the 87.  It's just such a good meter it's hard to pick something else... including the 87-4.  The Amprobe is a great deal at ~$120 on Amazon.  Great value but not quite as nice as the Fluke in many ways.  I recommend the Amprobe to people who want a "good" meter but wouldn't pay $300+ for a new 87-5.  If I had to buy a new (non-used) meter the Am-270 would top my list.  Still, it doesn't feel as nice.  The display is good but not quite as nice to read as the Fluke's.  All and all it's like getting a high end Toyota and then comparing it to a lower end Mercedes or Caddy.  The luxury brands are just nicer but they cost more for similar specs.  Part of that extra cost goes into the little things.  Things Fluke pays for and Amprobe doesn't.

Anyway, high risk safety aside, I think the 87 is no better on paper but just feels nicer to use in real life.  But there is a reason why I'm more likely to buy a top end Toyota vs a luxury brand car.  I just can't see spending the extra at retail prices. 

*Well almost.  The LCD's contrast was better on the 87-3, as was the bar graph.  Also the previously mentioned mA AC vs DC thing. 

** Clearly the meter was shorted.  The HRC fuse was blown but it appears that was not enough to protect the input trace.  Since short circuits are something that is almost to be expected it makes me wonder about what killed the meter and would a Fluke have walked away with only a blown fuse?
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #168 on: August 18, 2015, 07:22:40 am »
Any problems with using TME?
A number of members have bought from there without issues, including from the US.  :)
 

Offline TheAmmoniacal

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #169 on: August 18, 2015, 07:39:36 am »
I've had a few problems with TME, minor ones though - and something you could expect from most suppliers. They will run out of stock of something I've ordered without telling me (even though it shows in stock on their website), and just ship my package with orders missing. They will reschedule a shipment for the missing orders awaiting stock, a couple of weeks will pass and they'll cancel the orders and refund the money for it. They've done this with plain resistors, so not something that became obsolete either.

It's a real PITA when you have a project and you need those parts!
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #170 on: August 18, 2015, 11:15:08 am »

My question to Greenlee is a simple one?  How many years is a Greenlee multimeter under warranty?  1? 5? 10?


So, you would rather rant on a public forum than try and solve it?   

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/greenlee-lifetime-warranty-an-answer-almost/msg710524/#msg710524

Already waiting for them to make it clearer.
:-+   


Good info on TME.  Thanks!   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #171 on: August 18, 2015, 12:13:36 pm »
I've had a few problems with TME, minor ones though - and something you could expect from most suppliers. They will run out of stock of something I've ordered without telling me (even though it shows in stock on their website), and just ship my package with orders missing. They will reschedule a shipment for the missing orders awaiting stock, a couple of weeks will pass and they'll cancel the orders and refund the money for it. They've done this with plain resistors, so not something that became obsolete either.

It's a real PITA when you have a project and you need those parts!
That would be annoying.

BTW, has this issue been with just parts, or has it extended to T&M gear in your experience?
 

Offline saturation

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #172 on: August 18, 2015, 02:05:14 pm »
There are no large scale comparisons published I can recall but in a past life, early 1990s, many thousands of DMM were bought by the US government over a 3-4 year span, including Fluke 70s, maybe 80s, Taiwan and Korean model re-brands, [Sperry, B&K, etc.,].  The idea then was any maker who met the specs of the bid, submitted a few samples for testing, were purchasable. 

These devices were rated to operated in harsh environments: year long treks at sea, deserts, jungles, ant/arctic,  at or above rated altitude, and other things.  They were used in electrically "dirty" conditions, working on life and death mission critical sort of things.  The same devices could travel to environmental extremes depending on the technician sent there, or the devices stayed in a harsh environment as part of a tool kit.

By late 1990s, the initially procured Fluke brand meters operated as specified, even those heavily abused.  Of other brands a good minority malfunctioned, over time the Fluke's remained and replacements were nearly all Flukes.  Of the non-Fluke procurement, some too malfunction, so by the mid 2000, nearly all DMM purchases are Fluke with little turnover of DMMs today due to malfunction.  Its unclear which non-Fluke models those were.

So, initial higher purchase price was recouped over the much longer operational use, low maintenance from ruggedness and calibration stability.   While that experience speaks for Fluke and not Brymen, a competitor would have to live to up a similar reputation that took decades to establish across a single large organization.


An 87V at McMurdo:

« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 03:43:23 pm by saturation »
Best Wishes,

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Offline fanOfeeDIY

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #173 on: August 19, 2015, 07:51:43 am »
If I were going to buy it for myself on my personal usage, I will probably buy Brymen but if I were going to buy it for earning money, then it depends on the situation for buying Fluke or Brymen but it is easily to imagine I will be buying Fluke on many occasion.

The test equipment like handheld DMM are used for both as own usage (hobby, your own projects and etc) and for the purpose for earning revenue and this makes situation complex.

I like Brymen and derivative of Bryman such as Amprobe (it is Sanwa PC7000 in Japan) because the price is better for the specs and built quality, input protection, quality of LCD, speed of auto range, speed of update rate, speed of continuity test, quality of test leads and etc are reasonable (may not be the best but it is reasonable) and it makes me feel that Brymen knows what they need to do to make a good multimeter, compare to many other cheaply made ones.

But if I have to select a multimeter for earning income or for the company then it is really depends on the situation.

For example,
(*)If I am an OEM factory owner and in the position to find the manufacture who is seeking for a good factory, then I have to promote or demonstrate the goodness of my factory. If my factory was using like Fluke which is well known top brand multimeter or using Brymen, then the later will probably consume my effort for explaining extra.
(*)If my organization bought heavy industry equipment like power plant or military equipment made in US (which is the case in Japan), then the almost all the manuals for maintenances will be written based on using Fluke. Then the selection becomes whether to buy Fluke 83/87 or translate all the manuals for the Bryman.
(*)If I was working as an engineer in the large electronic company and most of the top management is not engineering background, then I have to consider when making evaluation reports which will be less hustle if the data will be measured by Fluke or Brymen.
(*)If I were employee as a service engineer to frequently visit customer’s sites to measure very expensive machineries, then I have to consider which will be easier to have better credibility from the customer if I were using Fluke or Brymen.
(*)If I were in a position for procure department for the company and wanted to secure my job for my life as much as possible, then which will have less blames if anything happens on the mulimeters between Fluke or Brymen.

There must be more examples, so there are many reasons for selecting Fluke does have good reasons.
If it was for my *own* use, I will pick Brymen and ask my friends the Fluke 87V for a present for me because it is just a nice superb mutimeter want to have it someday. :)
(Am I asking too much?) :)
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 12:13:18 pm by fanOfeeDIY »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: If Brymen BM869s is cheaper and as good, why people would still buy Fluke?
« Reply #174 on: August 22, 2015, 12:26:35 am »
No problems at all with TME.  Meter arrived today, was very well packed and delivered in less than a week to the USA.   And shipping was only $10 US!    Thanks for the advice on TME!

No plans to do a review of it.  A few of us did a little shootout with it against some Mastechs, Extech, Fluke and the 8.5 digit Agilent.   Meter holds it own very well. 

I noticed that they seem very conservative on some of specs.  For example with a 10dBm 50 ohm signal applied, the 3dB point is around 390KHz.  I was thinking it would be around 100KHz from the manual.     Freq input appears to work to around 13MHz, was expecting a MHz.   One thing I like right away is it stores the settings.   If you select 50 ohm calculations, next time you measure dB, it's at 50 ohms.   Overall, I'm impressed with it. 

Picture of the meter connected to -40dBm 50 ohm source.  Notice the counter won't trigger at this low of a signal.   
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 12:30:43 am by joeqsmith »
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 


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