DS1102E replacement (Australia)

[paul49]

My DS1102E has developed an intermittent fault with (I presume) the component(s) which decode the rotary encoders. I can still use it if I connect and control it from a PC but I don't find this very convenient.

Given that I'm in Australia, is the DS1054Z still a reasonable replacement for this? I'm not interested in buying from overseas.

The DS1054Z has been available for quite a few years and is still selling for the full RRP. I thought a replacement might be in the cards by now. I have read the comparisons here with Siglents and others but they do seem more expensive here in Australia.

Edit: I probably should have mentioned that this is for occasional hobby use and the DS1102E is plenty good enough for my needs. I note that the DS1102E is (amazingly) still for sale but if I'm going to invest in a new DSO, I might as well move up-market a little.

[tautech]

I have read the comparisons here with Siglents and others but they do seem more expensive here in Australia.

SDS1104X-E is a step up in spec and capability hence the higher price.
A bit cheaper option depending on your needs is the 200 MHz 2ch SDS1202X-E.

[paul49]

SDS1104X-E is a step up in spec and capability hence the higher price.
A bit cheaper option depending on your needs is the 200 MHz 2ch SDS1202X-E.

Thanks for that. I just did a quick search and the 1202X-E is about 50% more expensive than the Rigol. I don't really need the extra bandwidth (or perhaps I should say that I don't need it enough to pay extra for it  ).

[tautech]

SDS1104X-E is a step up in spec and capability hence the higher price.
A bit cheaper option depending on your needs is the 200 MHz 2ch SDS1202X-E.

Thanks for that. I just did a quick search and the 1202X-E is about 50% more expensive than the Rigol.

DS1102E ?

Yes well they're a dated design now with limited memory depth, no decoding and just a 5" display.
Most entry level DSO's are now much better featured.

[paul49]

DS1102E ?

Sorry for the confusion. No, I'm comparing prices of the SDS1202X to the DS1054Z.

[tautech]

DS1102E ?

Sorry for the confusion. No, I'm comparing prices of the SDS1202X to the DS1054Z.

Okay then you have some reading and datasheet study to do.

There's a mountain of info on each of those models here on the forum without going into another 'which is best' bun fight.

[paul49]

Okay then you have some reading and datasheet study to do.

There's a mountain of info on each of those models here on the forum without going into another 'which is best' bun fight.

OK, apologies again for not explaining myself clearly.

Since the pricing structure in Australia appears not to be the same as in higher volume countries, I was looking for someone with local knowledge of comparably priced models which might be a better choice than the DS1054Z. (but I can understand that "better choice" might be somewhat meaningless without knowing my requirements.) I was trying to make that clear in my original post by boldfacing "I'm in Australia" and mentioning that I had in fact already read the comparisons.

[tautech]

IPD's (ex Trio) pricing in OZ is a bit of a mystery when you can buy online and generally whip local pricing by a good amount and here in NZ sometimes even get through border controls without having the dreaded GST added.
That's how I started but now bringing big shipments in there's no way around it yet I attempt to keep pricing low and get the sales as customers prefer local support.

Although we're neighbors I can't sell into OZ despite being asked to on many occasions.
There's a bit of relevant info here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/where-to-buy-the-siglent-sds1202x-in-asutralia/

[Shock]

I hope you realize you have been talking to a Siglent dealer this whole time.

The Rigol DS1054Z should be fine, it is an upgrade. Four channels and you can free unlock all the features along with 100MHz bandwidth. The actual bandwidth of the oscilloscope goes higher according to tests 160MHz with -3dB and usable up around 200MHz or so but with a bit more attenuation.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, aside from getting 4 channels you also get the 4 150MHz probes. According to Tequipment.net it's been their top seller for 5 years running. It will probably remain that way until there is another 4 channel oscilloscope with the same or better features for the same price or less.

But do look into repairing your Rigol DS1102E, could be something simple or at least you could sell it to offset the costs of the new scope.

[paul49]

IPD's (ex Trio) pricing in OZ is a bit of a mystery when you can buy online and generally whip local pricing by a good amount and here in NZ sometimes even get through border controls without having the dreaded GST added.
That's how I started but now bringing big shipments in there's no way around it yet I attempt to keep pricing low and get the sales as customers prefer local support.

Although we're neighbors I can't sell into OZ despite being asked to on many occasions.
There's a bit of relevant info here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/where-to-buy-the-siglent-sds1202x-in-asutralia/

That is an interesting read. Thanks for the link.

[paul49]

I hope you realize you have been talking to a Siglent dealer this whole time.

Yes, but I'm happy for any information.

The Rigol DS1054Z should be fine, it is an upgrade. Four channels and you can free unlock all the features along with 100MHz bandwidth. The actual bandwidth of the oscilloscope goes higher according to tests 160MHz with -3dB and usable up around 200MHz or so but with a bit more attenuation.

As I've mentioned in previous posts, aside from getting 4 channels you also get the 4 150MHz probes. According to Tequipment.net it's been their top seller for 5 years running. It will probably remain that way until there is another 4 channel oscilloscope with the same or better features for the same price or less.

But do look into repairing your Rigol DS1102E, could be something simple or at least you could sell it to offset the costs of the new scope.

I bought the 1102E shortly before the 1054Z was released. I was less than amused. But it did the job until it started acting up.

As regards fixing the 1102E, there are only a couple of posts online about the same issue. Nobody seems to have posted a solution other than it's most likely the chip(s) which decode the encoders but no information on which chip. Unfortunately I don't have another scope to help with fault finding.

The 1054Z does look the most appealing. If for no other reason than I can literally drive 10 minutes and buy one from a reputable reseller - no freight costs and I can take it back if it breaks.

Thanks for the advice.

[Someone]

As regards fixing the 1102E, there are only a couple of posts online about the same issue. Nobody seems to have posted a solution other than it's most likely the chip(s) which decode the encoders but no information on which chip. Unfortunately I don't have another scope to help with fault finding.

If you scope is still running via the PC it should be possible to probe the encoders and see what is happening. But encoders (even on "high end" test equipment) are wear items and fail with use. It is probably as simple as refurbishment or replacement of the encoders:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/problem-with-rigol-scope-knob/?all
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/rigol-ds1052e-annual-service-(knob-problem)/?all

[paul49]

If you scope is still running via the PC it should be possible to probe the encoders and see what is happening. But encoders (even on "high end" test equipment) are wear items and fail with use. It is probably as simple as refurbishment or replacement of the encoders:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/problem-with-rigol-scope-knob/?all
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/rigol-ds1052e-annual-service-(knob-problem)/?all

Yes, those are the posts I was referring to. The reason that I don't think it's a problem with the encoders per se is that they ALL fail simultaneously and then (occasionally) recover simultaneously. When they fail, the smaller (free-turning) knobs don't respond at all and the larger (click) knobs either don't respond or do something completely unexpected - for example, the horizontal scale encoder is (erratically) changing the trigger level. That feels like a more "global" issue than faulty encoders.

But I didn't think of using the DSO to probe itself. That's somehow wonderfully recursive. Many Thanks for the tip.

[Shock]

I've not looked at the schematic but if the symptom changed over time and it goes away my money is on two dirty/faulty encoders.

[JohnPen]

As the fault is intermittent it could also be caused by a poor solder joint and just be a temperature sensitive problem.  It might be worth using a hot air gun with a narrow nozzle alternating with an 'Artic Spray' can to try and localise the problem to a particular area of the PCB/circuit.   Also if possible check the power supply voltages for any changes between 'fault' and 'no fault'.   You might be lucky intermittent's can be very frustrating though.  Hopefully it won't be a chip fault but something rather easier to fix.  Best of luck.
John

[Fungus]

Given that I'm in Australia, is the DS1054Z still a reasonable replacement for this? I'm not interested in buying from overseas.

Yes.

(it will be a big step up...  )

Yes, those are the posts I was referring to. The reason that I don't think it's a problem with the encoders per se is that they ALL fail simultaneously and then (occasionally) recover simultaneously. When they fail, the smaller (free-turning) knobs don't respond at all and the larger (click) knobs either don't respond or do something completely unexpected - for example, the horizontal scale encoder is (erratically) changing the trigger level. That feels like a more "global" issue than faulty encoders.

But I didn't think of using the DSO to probe itself. That's somehow wonderfully recursive. Many Thanks for the tip.

It might be just the cable from the PCB with the knobs to the main PCB.

OTOH it could be a crack in the PCB, might be hard to find.

[paul49]

As the fault is intermittent it could also be caused by a poor solder joint and just be a temperature sensitive problem.

It no longer appears to be intermittent. I also left it running for a few hours and no change to behaviour as it warms up.

[paul49]

It might be just the cable from the PCB with the knobs to the main PCB.

OTOH it could be a crack in the PCB, might be hard to find.

Good suggestion, so I just had a look at a teardown/repair video and it looks like there is only one ribbon cable going to the controls. All of the momentary contact switches (Menu, Run Control etc.) work correctly whereas the rotary controls are not responding appropriately. Seems less likely to be a cable fault perhaps. I'd expect that at least one of the "push-buttons" would be misbehaving since they appear to share the same cable.

Could be a crack, solder joint or a chip. In any case, and since it seems that it is a little more challenging to remove the case than just removing a few screws, I might not attempt a repair. I can still use it via a PC (and it's a good excuse to buy a DS1054Z.  )

Thanks to all for the excellent advice.

[PTR_1275]

I had 2 of the 1054z, one at work and one at home.

Work then bought me a shiny 1000 series keysight to use, so I sold the rigol I had at work.

There are things I prefer the keysight for and things I prefer the rigol for.


With regards to encoder failures, the 7000 series keysight at work had 2 encoders fail. They were pretty easy to replace, but in your case with all the encoders dropping out, it definitely is something more than a dirty encoder.

I’ve got a few siglent bits of gear, but haven’t looked at the new offerings for a while, so I can’t advise on what is good. As others have mentioned, tautech is a siglent distributor and a wealth of knowledge, so any advice he gives on the siglent products is going to be 100%

[Fungus]

any advice he gives on the siglent products is going to be 100%

100% correct, but also 100% biased.

[tautech]

any advice he gives on the siglent products is going to be 100%

100% correct, but also 100% biased.

So you wanna play silly buggers then !

My biases are based on the relationship I have with the excellent company I represent, any equipment specification (all brands) and price.
Yours however seem to change with the winds and can be so one eyed that we've witnessed you badger another member with a contrary POV until he reacted in such a way he was banned.
IMHO your behaviour was disgraceful and especially so for a super contributor.

So what brand/s might you be pushing next week ?
What personal support will you offer buyers of such brands you might recommend ?
Will you invest in one ? (Put up or shut up ! )
Will you offer tests to support proof of its capabilities ?

Merry bloody Christmas to you too !

[Fungus]

My biases are based on the relationship I have with the excellent company I represent, any equipment specification (all brands) and price.

We know.

and can be so one eyed that we've witnessed you badger another member with a contrary POV until he reacted in such a way he was banned.

Oh, that was my fault now...?

If he was the one who got banned then maybe it was him badgering me.