Is a Rigol MSO5000 overkill for a hobbyist?

[WaveyDipole]

I have been considering the purchase of a Rigol MSO5000 series scope but it is rather a lot of money to justify for a hobbyist. I could set aside a budget of around £800 and the DSO5074 at the moment is £850 including VAT which I could stretch to, this having been apparently reduced by almost £100. I would have to buy the probe later, or perhaps make one by following one of the two projects on EEVBLOG.

Incidentally, I did look at the Siglent 2102/2104 but since these cost considerably more, they are out of the running.

I already own a Rigol 1054Z which has been adequate for messing around with micro-controllers and vintage computer repairs and catching transients. However, I also like to work with vintage radio (valve and transistor) as well as other analog repairs. Sometimes an analog scope can be more useful than a digital one so I would like to keep at least one analog scope around for such occasions. As for analog scopes, I own a Tek 468 10MHz storage/100MHz 2CH hybrid digital/analog scope with GPIB (useful for dumping screenshots), a Philips PM3094 200MHz 4CH analog which was my last upgrade some three or four years ago, and more recently I have acquired a Tek 475 200MHz 2CH scope. The Phillips PM3094 is a nice instrument, but seems to struggle at FM radio frequencies. I haven't had the opportunity to compare the Tek 475 in this scenario yet but I would like be able to view frequencies up to the 2M ham band. A scope with bandwidth anywhere beyond that is just going to be way out of my budget.

Obviously I will not need all of these oscilloscopes, so I have decided that if I go ahead an purchase the MSO5074, then at least two of the analog scopes or maybe even the 1054Z will have to be sold. Because of the amount of work I put into it, I am the least inclined to sell the 468. I am probably most inclined to sell the PM3094. I do not actually need to sell anything, but I should probably also point out that storage and work space is a significant problem so getting rid of a couple of these large instruments would certainly be advantageous and would help to offset the cost somewhat. I am struggling to decide which ones to sell.

I did also consider selling my HP function generator as it is also pretty big and has an awkward deep footprint, but it seems that the sig gen built into the MSO5000 can only manage 2.5Vpp? Is this even adequate to drive a 5V TTL circuit? I do also have a separate RF sig gen for radio servicing purposes as well as an FY6900 function generator so could probably manage without the HP. Still, it is a nice unit.

As mentioned, £800 is a lot of money so naturally the question arises whether spending that much is justifiable for mostly hobbyist activities, i.e. I am forced to ask myself the question "do I really need this?". I suspect that the answewr is that it is probably more of a want than a need, although having seen both the MSO5000 and the 1054Z (as well as the Siglent) side by side at the recent Hamfest, I did feel that the larger screen would be beneficial. The Fourrier transforms and pseudo spectrum analyser function and the 16-channel LA also seemed rather useful.

Incidentally, I also saw there an example of the HDO series although this does not appear to be available for sale yet. In any case, it is in a much higher price bracket.

What I would like to know is:

a) is there anything else in the price range that will give me the same value for money as the Rigol MSO5000 series?

b) which of the scopes should I get rid of and which one to keep?

c) should I simply stick to and be content with what I have?

Decisions. Decisions.

[tautech]

Incidentally, I did look at the Siglent 2102/2104 but since these cost considerably more, they are out of the running.

SDS2104X Plus is a 500MHz design and the 100 MHz model has a -3dB BW of ~185 MHz.
Currently the MSO probe, license and internal AWG license are in promo package for just $ 220

[IAmBack]

Incidentally, I did look at the Siglent 2102/2104 but since these cost considerably more, they are out of the running.

SDS2104X Plus is a 500MHz design and the 100 MHz model has a -3dB BW of ~185 MHz.
Currently the MSO probe, license and internal AWG license are in promo package for just $ 220

While SDS2104X+ is awesome (also in terms of its hackability), keeping Rigol 1054z should be considered, because Siglent hasn't filters (hi/lo/bandpass filters are available in Rigol) , that may be handy for some kind measurements. Of course, if any of Your other tools doesn't offer this feature.

[Martin72]

For his purposes, he won´t need the filters I guess...
Nevertheless the MSO5000 got the filters too.

a) is there anything else in the price range that will give me the same value for money as the Rigol MSO5000 series?

Clearly no.
The SDS2104X+ is in several ways "better" but cost more, for the price of the MSO5000 you won´t get a "better" scope.
If you are confident with your 1054Z, you should compare both side by side and decide if you really need a new DSO.
The pros of the 5000 against the 1054Z are given:
- Bigger (touch-)screen, higher resolution
- Unlikely more memory
- Inbuild 2-ch awg
- Bode plot
- Power analyzer
- Hdmi output

And so on, there are more pros but IMHO not interesting when working on analog audio stuff.
"Old" man as I am, I would never return to a screen smaller than 9"...
If you won´t/couldn´t spend more money, the 5000 would be a good choice if not the best.
But have also a look at the HDO1000...
It will have significant lower noise than the 5000, 12 bit resolution and 10" screen(but no logic analyzer, bode plot).
If you don´t need LA, inbuild awg, high samplerate, but needing low noise and higher vertical accuracy, this could be worth waiting for.

[nctnico]

With that budget I'd look at the oscilloscopes from MicSig. Big screen, small casing, rock solid firmware and easy to use.

Internal function generator is typically not extremely useful especially if you need high amplitudes. There are several cheap function generator options nowadays from Feeltech and Uni-t that offer very good value for money.

[Martin72]

With that budget I'd look at the oscilloscopes from MicSig. Big screen, small casing, rock solid firmware and easy to use.

YOU own one ?
Now I´m really surprised.

[WaveyDipole]

Incidentally, I did look at the Siglent 2102/2104 but since these cost considerably more, they are out of the running.

SDS2104X Plus is a 500MHz design and the 100 MHz model has a -3dB BW of ~185 MHz.
Currently the MSO probe, license and internal AWG license are in promo package for just $ 220

So what is your point? Although I had seriously considered the Siglent and its a nice scope, the price is circa 50% above the Rigol and well beyond my budget and therefore not under consideration. I thought that I had made this clear in my opening post. Having to pay an extra $220 for licences is also unlikely to persuade me to change my mind. Let’s not turn this into another Siglent vs Rigol thread.

Filters are worth consideration IMHO and have been useful ocassionally.

The prices I saw for the Rigol HDO on the Telonic stand at the Ham-fest started at a price point comparable to the Siglent SDS 210x series, although the range does not appear to be for sale in the UK yet. As usual the USA prices are much lower and might even be compelling had they been the same in the UK.

Nctnico, I will check out the Micsig. I did also see them on the stand at the Ham-fest but didn’t take much notice. I don’t think any of them were capable of more than 1gs/s or had 4 channels. Not sure whether they had LA capability, at least for serial, SPI, I2C etc. More research required on my part. As regards the function gen, its the Feeltech FY6900 (60MHz) model that I have. Its pretty capable for the price. I guess that I don’t need to worry too much about such a feature being built into the scope.

BTW, anyone know what the bit width is on the Rigol MSO5000 series? Clearly its less than the 12 bits of the HDO series, so does the MSO5000 have an 8-bit or perhaps 10-bit ADC?

[Martin72]

Hi,

"True" 8 bits.

[balnazzar]

A thread that may be of interest: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/mso5000-bode-plotting-capability-is-it-good-enough/

Many people stated their opinions about the MSO5K there, and are unlikely to repeat them here once more. Possible alternatives are also examined.
TL;DR is that that scope has a noisy fron end, not particularly good for analog work, but has proper MSO integration, and it seems there is "nothing better" under 1K for people who need a MSO.

[tautech]

Incidentally, I did look at the Siglent 2102/2104 but since these cost considerably more, they are out of the running.

SDS2104X Plus is a 500MHz design and the 100 MHz model has a -3dB BW of ~185 MHz.
Currently the MSO probe, license and internal AWG license are in promo package for just $ 220

So what is your point? Although I had seriously considered the Siglent and its a nice scope, the price is circa 50% above the Rigol and well beyond my budget and therefore not under consideration. I thought that I had made this clear in my opening post. Having to pay an extra $220 for licences is also unlikely to persuade me to change my mind.

My post was to point out the great promo with these scopes currently however you've made it clear you can't/won't stretch that far.
Anyways, have a look at what you get for 200 Euro:
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/

[nctnico]

The MicSig TO1000 series has up to 4 channels, filtering and protocol decoding. On top of that it is portable as well due to the battery. Because it has a 4:3 screen it has about 25% more screen area.

[mwb1100]

[for the MSO500] I would have to buy the probe later, or perhaps make one by following one of the two projects on EEVBLOG.

There is someone on ebay selling MSO5000 logic analyzer probes based on one of those two projects' design for $80 US. (https://www.ebay.com/itm/224648789536)

I have decided that if I go ahead an purchase the MSO5074, then at least two of the analog scopes or maybe even the 1054Z will have to be sold.

If you have the MSO5074, is there a compelling reason to hang on to the 1054z?

it seems that the sig gen built into the MSO5000 can only manage 2.5Vpp?

Yes the amplitude range on the MSO5000's sig gen is limited.  But it does 5Vpp into HighZ, which is cut in half to 2.5Vpp into 50 Ohm.  I believe the FY6900 function generator you have is more capable than the MSO5000's sig gen, but I've never used an FY6900.

should I simply stick to and be content with what I have?

As always, such a question can only really be answered by you.  That said - I had a 1054z and didn't really need to 'upgrade' to an MSO5074.  But I did anyway, intending to sell the 1054z to offset some of the cost.  I might actually get around to doing that one day...

[Fungus]

Incidentally, I did look at the Siglent 2102/2104 but since these cost considerably more, they are out of the running.

SDS2104X Plus is a 500MHz design and the 100 MHz model has a -3dB BW of ~185 MHz.
Currently the MSO probe, license and internal AWG license are in promo package for just $ 220

So what is your point?

The point is he's a Siglent salesman.

[Fungus]

How much can you get the Rigol MSO5072 for? It's easy to unlock the other two channels and make a MSO5074.

The main benefit of paying for the MSO5074 is that you get four probes but in your case you probably have loads of them lying around.

Lately the MSO5074 is about the same price as the MSO5072, probably due to the launch of the HDO series, so... 

Just a thought.

Every 'scope has strengths and weaknesses. I love my Micsig but it I'm aware doesn't have the largest feature set.

The real question is: What new abilities do you think the MSO5000 will give you?

[2N3055]

The MicSig TO1000 series has up to 4 channels, filtering and protocol decoding. On top of that it is portable as well due to the battery. Because it has a 4:3 screen it has about 25% more screen area.

And it also does not have trend plots and even basic statistics on measurements that even DS1000Z does have. In some ways it is a downgrade from DS1000Z if those things are important to OP.

A general remark to original question:  Honestly, most of the equipment is overkill for a hobbyist. You probably already have more than enough equipment for the stuff you use it for and not even using that to the full.
How I dare to presume that ? Because of speculative question. It is simple: whenever I NEEDED a piece of equipment it was really, really obvious. For instance if you want to measure 3 phases voltages and currents at the same time you need at least 6 channels scope. Hence 8 channel scope. When I needed to look at fast signals, there it is, a 1GHz scope. I needed to solder, there is soldering station..

Things you need are usually quite obvious. Everything else is nice to have or luxury. In professional setting you might invest in things that speed up your work. Those are not needed in hobby environment but nice if you can afford it.
By definition, people do hobby to entertain themselves, it is something they like to do, not because it is "good business decision". So If you think you will get something "more" out of it (in whatever way that is meaningful to you) then you buy some piece of equipment or a parts for a project, if you can afford it.
If you want to be more on a rational side, I would say, spend more time and money on projects and find out what kinds of projects interest you the most. And then, it will soon be clear what tools (tools, instruments etc) you need to work on your topic of interest.
Other rational thing is to get rid of unnecessary and unreliable stuff. Also stuff that is too large and bulky and power hungry maybe.. If you want to keep an analog scope, keep one that will be most reliable. These things are on it's last breaths nowadays anyways.

Good luck in your pursuit...

[WaveyDipole]

Incidentally, I did look at the Siglent 2102/2104 but since these cost considerably more, they are out of the running.

SDS2104X Plus is a 500MHz design and the 100 MHz model has a -3dB BW of ~185 MHz.
Currently the MSO probe, license and internal AWG license are in promo package for just $ 220

So what is your point? Although I had seriously considered the Siglent and its a nice scope, the price is circa 50% above the Rigol and well beyond my budget and therefore not under consideration. I thought that I had made this clear in my opening post. Having to pay an extra $220 for licences is also unlikely to persuade me to change my mind.

My post was to point out the great promo with these scopes currently however you've made it clear you can't/won't stretch that far.
Anyways, have a look at what you get for 200 Euro:
https://www.siglenteu.com/news-article/save-up-to-e496-with-a-new-sds2000x-plus-oscilloscope-and-option-bundle/

Fair enough. The 2 channel Siglent SDS2012X costs €1070 inc VAT from Batronix. Add the option bundle for €244 inc VAT, that takes the total cost to €1314 which is about 1140GBP. The price from Telonic is 945GBP inc VAT plus 220GBP plus VAT for the bundle which comes to a comparable 1165GBP. You are correct. I definitely cannot stretch beyond 850-900GBP at this time.

Hi,

"True" 8 bits.

That's a shame. I thought it might be 10. Sounds like it could be worth waiting for the HDO series to become available in the UK, although that would depend on the eventual price point. Either way, that's likely to be more than my current budget so any purchase would have to be put on hold pending further information and funds.

A thread that may be of interest: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/mso5000-bode-plotting-capability-is-it-good-enough/

Many people stated their opinions about the MSO5K there, and are unlikely to repeat them here once more. Possible alternatives are also examined.
TL;DR is that that scope has a noisy fron end, not particularly good for analog work, but has proper MSO integration, and it seems there is "nothing better" under 1K for people who need a MSO.

Thanks. I just had a look at that thread (in addition to the 33 page one I had already digested over the last few weeks) and it does have some interesting points. It also mentions the Digilent AD2 and a GW Instek GDS1054B. I don't think that the AD2 is what I am looking for. The GDS1054B is interesting though.

should I simply stick to and be content with what I have?

As always, such a question can only really be answered by you.  That said - I had a 1054z and didn't really need to 'upgrade' to an MSO5074.  But I did anyway, intending to sell the 1054z to offset some of the cost.  I might actually get around to doing that one day...

That is a fair point and I suspect that I might end up doing the same!

The MicSig TO1000 series has up to 4 channels, filtering and protocol decoding. On top of that it is portable as well due to the battery. Because it has a 4:3 screen it has about 25% more screen area.

And it also does not have trend plots and even basic statistics on measurements that even DS1000Z does have. In some ways it is a downgrade from DS1000Z if those things are important to OP.

Thank you. Useful to note. I do think the Micsig might have a couple of advantages: a) it is handheld so does not have a common ground which might be useful in some circumstances. b) might a decent scope with good stable firmware be better than a jack of all trades with known bugs? Still it has only 2 channels at 200 or 300MHz.

A general remark to original question:  Honestly, most of the equipment is overkill for a hobbyist. You probably already have more than enough equipment for the stuff you use it for and not even using that to the full.
How I dare to presume that ? Because of speculative question. It is simple: whenever I NEEDED a piece of equipment it was really, really obvious. For instance if you want to measure 3 phases voltages and currents at the same time you need at least 6 channels scope. Hence 8 channel scope. When I needed to look at fast signals, there it is, a 1GHz scope. I needed to solder, there is soldering station..

Also a fair point. Generally I have purchased kit on an as needs basis but not always. For example, I haven't used all of the functions of the PM3094, however, I did purchase it because I knew I needed a bandwidth greater than 100MHz which none of my other scope have. Sometimes I might think that a purchase might come in handy for X but then that does not mean that X will ever arise. It just seems like a useful to have just in case. Since I have in mind to sell the PM3094, there would be no point purchasing a GDS1054B 100MHz scope.

Other rational thing is to get rid of unnecessary and unreliable stuff. Also stuff that is too large and bulky and power hungry maybe.. If you want to keep an analog scope, keep one that will be most reliable. These things are on it's last breaths nowadays anyways.

That seems like sound advice. I am beginning to think that I should actually put the purchase on hold for now and clear any surplus items first.

[nctnico]

By definition, people do hobby to entertain themselves, it is something they like to do, not because it is "good business decision". So If you think you will get something "more" out of it (in whatever way that is meaningful to you) then you buy some piece of equipment or a parts for a project, if you can afford it.

My advise: Either for business or hobby, buy the best you can afford. It will make your life better because the work is easier and the results are better. Unless you need a tool for a one-off project and have time to 'make do' with a sub-optimal tool.

[balnazzar]

Thanks. I just had a look at that thread (in addition to the 33 page one I had already digested over the last few weeks) and it does have some interesting points. It also mentions the Digilent AD2 and a GW Instek GDS1054B. I don't think that the AD2 is what I am looking for. The GDS1054B is interesting though.

The AD2 doesn't have the bandwidth you need for your work. But if you like USB scopes with good software (generally better than the software accompanying benchtops) there are the Picos.
You could also consider the SDS1104X-E. It can do more things than the Instek, it's unbeatable in terms of bang-for-bucks, has two 1GSa/s ADCs, but also has two annoying defects:
- It is loud (small fan driven at high rpms)
- It can't zoom out (if you stop acquisition and then enlarge horizonally, it will show you nothing).

Hope this helps.

[2N3055]

Thanks. I just had a look at that thread (in addition to the 33 page one I had already digested over the last few weeks) and it does have some interesting points. It also mentions the Digilent AD2 and a GW Instek GDS1054B. I don't think that the AD2 is what I am looking for. The GDS1054B is interesting though.

The AD2 doesn't have the bandwidth you need for your work. But if you like USB scopes with good software (generally better than the software accompanying benchtops) there are the Picos.
You could also consider the SDS1104X-E. It can do more things than the Instek, it's unbeatable in terms of bang-for-bucks, has two 1GSa/s ADCs, but also has two annoying defects:
- It is loud (small fan driven at high rpms)
- It can't zoom out (if you stop acquisition and then enlarge horizonally, it will show you nothing).

Hope this helps.

And if you take long memory slow acquistion and stop, you can zoom in into detail... And it is much easier to set scope that way instead of mentally calculating how long will certain memory depth be at certain sample rate...

People should stop repeating this nonsense statement. It is not a defect... It is a design decision. Scope captures amount of time that fits on  screen and  as set with timebase, same as analog scope would.
Many other scopes work this way (including LeCroys and Picoscope) and most of the scopes by default work like this also in AUTO memory mode. They have to be put into manual memory mode for this to happen. Some scopes, like Keysight Megazoom, don't do it either, but make a trick that if you stop the scope it takes additional longer capture. So people wrongly think it captured things outside the screen. It didn't, it took separate full memory single capture after you pressed stop...
Even on scopes that can manually control memory, most of the people don't use it and use Auto memory mode because setting memory back and forth all the time is time consuming and annoying and if you just set to longest memory all the time, than it slows down scope to a halt...
It can be useful in some specific scenarios but same captured data can be achieved by simply setting a scope timebase to long setting, capture and then change timebase to faster..

[luma]

Incidentally, I did look at the Siglent 2102/2104 but since these cost considerably more, they are out of the running.

SDS2104X Plus is a 500MHz design and the 100 MHz model has a -3dB BW of ~185 MHz.
Currently the MSO probe, license and internal AWG license are in promo package for just $ 220

So what is your point? Although I had seriously considered the Siglent and its a nice scope, the price is circa 50% above the Rigol and well beyond my budget and therefore not under consideration. I thought that I had made this clear in my opening post. Having to pay an extra $220 for licences is also unlikely to persuade me to change my mind. Let’s not turn this into another Siglent vs Rigol thread.

Tautech's schtick is to reply to every thread with a suggestion to buy a Siglent.  How well that suggestion matches the actual thing being asked is immaterial, just "reply" and "YOU SHOULD BUY A SIGLENT", no additional thought applied. He gets paid to do this, for some reason we all put up with it, so just ignore everything he says as it won't ever be pertinent to your question.

I have an MSO5072 sitting here that I bought shortly after launch.  Works a treat, does all the things I need it to do. UI is OK, speed is great, and the bang-for-the-buck is off the chart.  I don't know if my use case is the same as yours, but for me it's been a great solution on my bench for the past few years.

[nctnico]

Thanks. I just had a look at that thread (in addition to the 33 page one I had already digested over the last few weeks) and it does have some interesting points. It also mentions the Digilent AD2 and a GW Instek GDS1054B. I don't think that the AD2 is what I am looking for. The GDS1054B is interesting though.

The AD2 doesn't have the bandwidth you need for your work. But if you like USB scopes with good software (generally better than the software accompanying benchtops) there are the Picos.
You could also consider the SDS1104X-E. It can do more things than the Instek, it's unbeatable in terms of bang-for-bucks, has two 1GSa/s ADCs, but also has two annoying defects:
- It is loud (small fan driven at high rpms)
- It can't zoom out (if you stop acquisition and then enlarge horizonally, it will show you nothing).

Hope this helps.

And if you take long memory slow acquistion and stop, you can zoom in into detail... And it is much easier to set scope that way instead of mentally calculating how long will certain memory depth be at certain sample rate...

People should stop repeating this nonsense statement. It is not a defect... It is a design decision.

Which does affect useability in several very useful workflows. Maybe it is better that you stop pushing your workflow on others. Likely you are working on different problems / projects. IOW: try to understand that what is not a problem for you, can be a huge problem for others. Not everyone lives on your island!

Fortunately Siglent has finally seen the light and is now implementing memory management that is common for digital oscilloscopes on their newer models. There is no longer a need to pretend that a shortcoming/limitation is some kind of 'design choice'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

[balnazzar]

And if you take long memory slow acquistion and stop, you can zoom in into detail... And it is much easier to set scope that way instead of mentally calculating how long will certain memory depth be at certain sample rate...

People should stop repeating this nonsense statement. It is not a defect... It is a design decision. Scope captures amount of time that fits on  screen and  as set with timebase, same as analog scope would.
Many other scopes work this way (including LeCroys and Picoscope) and most of the scopes by default work like this also in AUTO memory mode. They have to be put into manual memory mode for this to happen. Some scopes, like Keysight Megazoom, don't do it either, but make a trick that if you stop the scope it takes additional longer capture. So people wrongly think it captured things outside the screen. It didn't, it took separate full memory single capture after you pressed stop...
Even on scopes that can manually control memory, most of the people don't use it and use Auto memory mode because setting memory back and forth all the time is time consuming and annoying and if you just set to longest memory all the time, than it slows down scope to a halt...
It can be useful in some specific scenarios but same captured data can be achieved by simply setting a scope timebase to long setting, capture and then change timebase to faster..

Good points but.. I still prefer a scope that zooms out. In absence of this, I'd like at least to have some workaround a-la-Keysight.

Anyway, a detailed review about this aspect among various brands has been done:

[balnazzar]

I have an MSO5072 sitting here that I bought shortly after launch.  Works a treat, does all the things I need it to do. UI is OK, speed is great, and the bang-for-the-buck is off the chart.

But isn't the noisy front end a bit annoying?

[Martin72]

Not when you don´t need to observe very low voltage signals.
It´s always a question of what you need.
For me it was a real showstopper and so I gave it away.
For him not and he´s happy with it.

[tautech]

I still prefer a scope that zooms out. In absence of this, I'd like at least to have some workaround a-la-Keysight.

Anyway, a detailed review about this aspect among various brands has been done: Daves outdated video link

Trouble is Dave's video is outdated as it implies all Siglent scopes are incapable of capture zoom out which in Zoom mode is certainly not the case.
Fast forward to 2022 and his claims are just wrong as 2 new model series and the existing SDS5000X series now all have a new memory management mode when combined with deep memory makes for DSO's with market leading zoom out capability.