Is NON-CONTACT VOLTAGE feature worth it?

[donescamillo]

Hi,

Silly question, but still have to ask it:
for home and hobbyist usage, is it worth choosing Brymen 829, which has NON-CONTACT VOLTAGE detection (which I guess comes in handy) over Brymen 869s, which is more precise, has more features but no NON-CONTACT VOLTAGE detection?

I currently have AstroAi M6KOR, but I have not really pushed it hard and I think is not as robust as the Brymens.

[shapirus]

NON-CONTACT VOLTAGE detection (which I guess comes in handy)

How often?
It can be bought as a separate very cheap device, if you really need it. The 869s is a great DMM (but it sure could use a facelifting refreshment -- it's an older platform) for everything else.

[5U4GB]

I don't have any specific experience with the Brymen but many measuring devices, typically from China, have some sort of NCV detection capability added on and they're anything from poor to near-useless.  Given that you're using this to try and detect the presence of lethal voltages, I'd buy a separate device for this purpose and then test it to make sure that it will actually warn you of lethal voltages.  Again, most of the cheap Chinese ones aren't something I'd want to rely on for warnings.

[jonpaul]

if mains or HV safety is involved get a Fluke or Miller hot stick electricians volt probe.

We use only Fluke DVM, eg 87V.

Dont trust yoru life to China DVM

Jon

[shapirus]

I wouldn't trust *any* non-contact detector when it comes to safety considerations. NCV is just a convenient preliminary indicator, that's it.

[donescamillo]

Dont trust your life to China DVM

This is why I want a Brymen, it is of much higher quality than cheapos. And no, I would not trust the NCV, but as a preliminary test it should be OK.

[tszaboo]

It's a useful feature. I don't think it's particularly handy on a handheld DMM, because of the shape of it, you cannot get into thigh corners and such. On a clamp mater it's somewhat better, and dedicated contactless pen shaped sensors its very useful.

[Majorassburn]

I tried to resist commenting here but my weakness of character prevented me from remaining silent. 

A few rules to LIVE by when working around lethal voltages with a DMM:
1)  Above 240V, DO NOT USE A DMM!!!
2)  Below 240V, USE A FLUKE!!!
3)  Chinese DMM's & Brymens are fine for ELECTRONICS but NOT MAINS ELECTRICITY.

I have been shocked and burned several times in my life by 120V, 240V and burned by 25KV in older TV's and I can tell you that it is no fun.

As for NCV, as another poster before me has said, "NCV is just a convenient preliminary indicator, that's it."  And, That's really it.

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself! 

[shapirus]

3)  Chinese DMM's & Brymens are fine for ELECTRONICS but NOT MAINS ELECTRICITY.

Why?

[donescamillo]

Your weakness of character is appreciated!   

[bdunham7]

Silly question, but still have to ask it:

It's actually not silly.  NCV is definitely worth having but probably not worth having incorporated into a DMM.  The standalone tools are inexpensive and generally work better.  It is a good idea to use both NCV first and then some other tester (DMM, 2-pole, test light, etc) since one possible wiring fault is where you have only two wires that are at the same high potential and no accessible ground.  The probe-contact EF detection as found in the 829S may also be a reasonable substitute for NCV as it will also detect any high potential with one probe.

For general electrical work a more useful feature to have in your DMM is the Lo-Z function (aka "Auto Check") which unfortunately the 869S does not have, but the 829S does. 

[bdunham7]

1)  Above 240V, DO NOT USE A DMM!!!

So for measuring voltage drop in a 3-PH 480VAC motor circuit you would use a....?

[shapirus]

So for measuring voltage drop in a 3-PH 480VAC motor circuit you would use a....?

An analog MM, I suppose.

[2N3055]

3)  Chinese DMM's & Brymens are fine for ELECTRONICS but NOT MAINS ELECTRICITY.

Yes, we get it,  Murica best....

Brymen has CAT IV/1000V meters that Fluke does not have.
If anything, it is safer than yellow overpriced brand.

For checking in house electricity even Chinese UNI-T is good enough. Low energy.

If you want to mess with power distribution, don't, if you don't know what you're doing..
Not because of meter used but general safety rules...

NCV in meter is not useful at all. Meter case is too big.
NCV volt-stick type is useful but not to be fully trusted. It is one of those tools that if it shows voltage you know it is dangerous, but if it does not show anything it is not sure it is safe...
I find contact detectors to be better choice.

I would get BM869S as superb meter and get separate BT-75 Voltage tester for electrician work.
It is fully featured voltage detector, NCV detection, contact voltage detection, RCD testing, voltage, resistance and continuity.
It has vibration alert for high voltages, and will detect high voltage even with dead batteries.

[themadhippy]

And of course before and after every voltage test  were all proving the meter

[J-R]

NCV is the only option in certain situations, such as for locating inside walls or tracing between closed junction boxes.  In both cases, there is no way to directly probe the wire.  While I have a lot of DMMs that offer NCV, there are only two that I can highly recommend: the Amprobe AM-47 (Brymen BM27s) and the UEi DL489.  The Amprobe is small and sensitive enough that you can check wall switches (but not really inside walls).  The UEi is larger but simply amazing in my opinion in how it leverages a unique audio buzzing noise to indicate the strength of the signal.  I can zone in on an active circuit in a wall from multiple feet away.

Another option is some stud finders offer a voltage detection feature and I have a couple of those.  It's more about an extra sanity check before shoving a screw into the wall, though.

The voltage detection sticks are a bit less sensitive in my experience and this can be good and bad.  Good that you can check individual wires when they are close to each other, but bad for other things like outlets because you frequently have to insert it directly into the socket to have it register.

[Majorassburn]

1)  Above 240V, DO NOT USE A DMM!!!

So for measuring voltage drop in a 3-PH 480VAC motor circuit you would use a....?

Answer:  1)   A licensed electrician with proper training and equipment and his/her life insurance paid up....
 Or,  2)  A Fluke 87V while properly suited and booted and gloved and accompanied by a medical trauma team. 

Yes, you are correct that there ARE certain circumstances where a DMM must be used around lethal voltages above the common mains. In those special cases, I would suggest that only a carefully chosen, well-proven and fully certified DMM like a Fluke be used.

All Chinese DMM's that I have owned and experimented with over the years are of such flimsy construction and have such questionable certifications that I would never think of using them for mains work. And I would be nervous with one even when making a casual check in a residential setting.

Now, I'm no fan boy of Fluke or any other brand. But, as some of us who have viewed the Fluke testing video where a Chinese cheapie explodes and burns when it is connected to mains while mistakenly set to the OHMS function, I have a much healthier respect for a Fluke DMM as a result.

I'm not knocking a Brymen either. But, I wouldn't buy one myself because the basic accuracy specs don't meet my preferences like the Flukes do. Neither, do I know what their performance record is when placed in use in a lethal industrial environment. I do know what Fluke's is though.

Another reason that I wouldn't buy a Brymen is that they have no brand distribution or support in the USA other than a couple of private labels.

That's important to me as I ask why a quality DMM manufacturer would avoid the lucrative U.S. market for so many years? Is it because of the potential liability that they would be exposed to if their DMM's didn't live up to their claims and started hurting users?

Maybe they, themselves, don't believe that their products could stand up to the tasks when compared to Fluke, Amprobe and a few other U.S. brands with proven track records of safety in service?

Just raising questions about DMM's being used in lethal voltage applications, that's all.   

[bdunham7]

Maybe they, themselves, don't believe that their products could stand up to the tasks when compared to Fluke, Amprobe and a few other U.S. brands with proven track records of safety in service?

Just raising questions about DMM's being used in lethal voltage applications, that's all.   

Brymen actually makes meters that are sold under the Amprobe and Fluke names, as well as Greenlee which is their biggest label.  The most likely reason that they don't move in directly is simply that they have a contractual obligation to Greenlee.  I use Fluke myself, but not because I think other (good) brands are likely to explode.  The video with the Harbor Freight free meter isn't representative of every "Chinese" meter.   That would be like crashing your Hummer into a Tata Nano or Citroen 2CV and using the video as proof that only American-made GM vehicles are safe.

In any case, if you are working on higher energy systems, you are much more likely to blow something up by using the wrong probes (unshielded tips) than you are to have an actual problem with the meter itself.  And the 'proving' requirements mentioned earlier are proving the test leads more than anything because the leads fail more often than the meters, at least with Fluke.  I've heard Brymen actually has nice test leads although I haven't seen them myself.

[Majorassburn]

Brymen actually makes meters that are sold under the Amprobe and Fluke names, as well as Greenlee which is their biggest label.

Really?  I Didn't know that Danaher/Fortive used Brymen for their Fluke & Amprobe DMM's...wasn't aware of that.  Specifically, which Fluke or Amprobe DMM's are made by Brymen?

[helius]

I prefer to use a specialized tool for non-contact voltage detection. The grand-daddy of these is the TIF TIC100 "Tracer". TIF also made (maybe still makes?) a 300HV version that is rated up to 125,000 VAC with appropriate insulated handles.

A more modern tool is the Ideal 61-025 VoltAware, available around $15 at major retailers. A narrow, pen-shaped tool is more useful for detecting voltage in confined areas such as electric junction boxes.

[floobydust]

NCV sensitivity depends on how you hold the instrument. It's relying on your body capacitance as the other electrode. Always be careful with how/where you're holding it.
Also if the probe "can get in there", anything shielding wires will thwart it.
I use NCV only when it's not possible to measure voltages and to confirm the junction box does not have multiple power sources. For when you shut off a breaker but there's still hazardous live wiring in there.

I got a cheap NCV probe from Aliexpress I think it was $1 possibly a Fluke knockoff. Hmmm it didn't work very good at all, poor sensitivity. Took it apart, the problem is the probe tip was missing the metal flag and somebody put a resistor lead in place. It uses a 74HC14 and very high Z input impedance 12x22MEG (264MEG) to GND. Works great now.

NCV in multimeters, the electrode looks not well thought out, a PCB trace next to a bunch of other traces and nowhere near 264MEG input impedance. so I expect the feature to not work as good as a dedicated probe.

[ejeffrey]

Yes NCV is handy.  I use it somewhat regularly.  I wouldn't make it a major factor in a DMM decision but it's a nice to have feature if it's there.  But it's easy enough to get a stand alone tester if you prefer a different meter.

[Simon]

Fluke are seriously overpriced. A 179 now goes for £450 when a few years ago it was £250, you are literally buying a pantone colour.

[2N3055]

Fluke are seriously overpriced. A 179 now goes for £450 when a few years ago it was £250, you are literally buying a pantone colour.

Even £250 is too much.

179 is a 6000 count meter with DC accuracy of 0.1% (0,09% in sales talk) and in the rest of the measurements it is not better than 1%.
AC BW is 1 kHz.

While at the same time you can get 3 pieces of Brymen BM857S/867S/789.
Or a BM869, a BT75 and a good Brymen current clamp of your choice.
That complement of instruments would be much more usefull.

[Simon]

well I just sold mine for £120 on an ebay auction. the guy actually messaged me to confirm I was happy with the price before he paid. I said yes. people had them up for a little more and the fact that they were just sitting there meant no one was interestd.