Author Topic: JBC CD-1BQE  (Read 4497 times)

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Offline exe

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2019, 01:28:45 pm »
There is a lot of love to the new pace soldering iron. However, I think its performance is greatly exaggerated. Dave clearly showed that jbc solders better at the same temperature. Not "a bit better", but really better. It's not in the same league with jbc and metcal. Of course at this point people start pointing at the price, but to me it looks like backpedaling. BTW, is it universally accessible for the advertised price? People reported real pricing was almost twice higher than MSRP.

Second, I'm yet to see how pace compares to ksger (which I bought for ~$40 delivered, controller without PSU can be got twice cheaper, afaik) and how much more value it brings. No doubt who will win, but I want to see the difference in numbers.

Third, t12 didn't become worse just because someone release a new iron.

I'd say ADS200 is overhyped. One real thing (tm) that can be "a game changer" about pace is support for tweezers. Will see in August.
 

Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2019, 02:47:42 pm »
Dave was using a low soldering temperature on a high thermal mass. As I mentioned old firmware and there are differences in the heating profile and tip plating between stations. It's not a comparable test.

If you look at the Pace station it's hardly moving off temp so no proper thermal bridge was established. There were small differences, like the geometry favored the JBC tip (it was shorter) and I got the impression it was running hotter from the thermometer test. Being used on a mound of solder and kept consistently on the joint may help it establish a thermal bridge faster. Once that happens of course the heat is going to dump into the joint and the station regulates the deficiency which is where overshoot comes into play.

The Pace is designed with a very conservative heating profile to maintain temp accuracy. It's a little easier to see in the latest firmware which has single digit resolution.

It's a great station, pity there are no videos showing any actual proper soldering with it yet. Pace mentioned distributors set their own prices, at least the 120V model is cheap in the US. Yeah can't wait to see the tweezers are like.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2019, 02:55:37 pm »
I can get the Jabe UD-1200 from Alibaba shipped DHL to the USA, 110V with English menu for $220 US.  I'm tempted after watching DEFPOM's review, especially as it has English menu.  What are the tips used in this? I assume they are the same as the JBC iron it clearly copies?

[EDIT] From the pictures, it looks pretty certain that the tips are the (more popular) C245 range, all the Jabe tips in the pictures are marked 2245-xxx and they look physically the same.  I was also happy to get the English menu system.

Anyway, I just placed the order; maybe Donnie-2 scoops' tariffs will bite me in the ass but whatever, I can spend more on a night out in a good restaurant than I paid for the Jabe, $223 shipped via DHL.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 03:37:06 pm by Gandalf_Sr »
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Offline SoundTech-LG

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2019, 03:34:59 pm »
Great question, because the JBC tips are grossly over priced...
 

Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2019, 04:26:22 pm »
I'm tempted after watching DEFPOM's review, especially as it has English menu.  What are the tips used in this? I assume they are the same as the JBC iron it clearly copies?

I don't think the video above showing the JBC clone was Defpoms.

In that video play close attention to how the JBC overshoots by 20C then sits solidly on 450C while soldering. Then the clone lands instantly on a perfect 450C and starts dipping while soldering. Overshooting while soldering looks hidden in both firmware.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline exe

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #30 on: June 05, 2019, 06:50:28 pm »
I'm a bit uncomfortable with Jabe because of the price. Chinese t12 was (and is) a real breakthrough as one could buy a controller for $20 (now it's ~$30, still affordable) and power it from a laptop brick. This gave access to high-performance soldering to everyone.

This Jabe costs >$200 (+customs, no way such a big box will go unnoticed). At this price point I'm personally more into a "real brand".
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #31 on: June 05, 2019, 07:10:44 pm »
In that video play close attention to how the JBC overshoots by 20C then sits solidly on 450C while soldering. Then the clone lands instantly on a perfect 450C and starts dipping while soldering. Overshooting while soldering looks hidden in both firmware.
Maybe that's why the Jabe takes a little bit longer?  Is an 20C overshoot worse or better? I don't know.

In the end I've bought 2 units for just over $300 instead of one for $515 and I need another unit for my second home/cottage.  The US customs seems never to intercept small parcels and packages from anywhere, there's some value (I think it's $800, per person, per day) at which they ignore stuff so they aren't nickel and dimeing small buyers like us.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 07:30:39 pm by Gandalf_Sr »
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Offline SoundTech-LG

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2019, 07:39:01 pm »
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2019, 11:54:11 pm »
Just ordered 2 of these...

https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/CD-1BQE/Soldering-Stations/

LOL, the thread goes full circle and Tequipment.net sells 2 instead of 1!
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Offline snoopy

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Offline JxR

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2019, 01:52:13 am »
What's the difference between 1BQE and 2BQE ? Is it the mains voltage ?

A quick glance at tequipment.net shows all of the models starting with "2" are 230V.  So looks like that is all it is.
 

Offline JxR

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2019, 02:03:20 am »
Just ordered 2 of these...

https://www.tequipment.net/JBC/CD-1BQE/Soldering-Stations/

LOL, the thread goes full circle and Tequipment.net sells 2 instead of 1!

Funny how that works.  I bought a JBC DDE about three years ago around tax refund time.  I love having the 245/210 (regular/micro) handles loaded with different cartridges and ready to go.  Having two hand pieces also works great as ghetto hot tweezers.  I guess it was a bit of a splurge on my part, but I have never regretted that particular purchase.

I hope your new equipment works out great, and gives you the performance you are looking for.  My Hakko 888 worked great for getting me started, but I can't say I've missed it at all these past years.
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2019, 09:44:10 am »
I hope your new equipment works out great, and gives you the performance you are looking for.  My Hakko 888 worked great for getting me started, but I can't say I've missed it at all these past years.

I can see that my Hakko FX951 may be looking for a new owner soon, it's like new but the inability to change temperature easily is really annoying.  Is the 210 handle compatible with the 245 in terms of plugging it into a station?  It sounds as though the micro bits may be what I need to do the really small work and I could buy just the handle and bits and plug them into my Jabe station.

[EDIT] Equalizor's video on the Jabe says (at the very very end) that you can't plug the 210 handle into the UD-1200
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 10:51:17 am by Gandalf_Sr »
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Offline JxR

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2019, 02:03:05 pm »
Equalizor's video on the Jabe says (at the very very end) that you can't plug the 210 handle into the UD-1200

Honestly I wouldn't let that deter you if what ever you buy will be using a JBC handpiece.  There is alot of overlap on the tips between the 245/210.  Its only the smallest tips where the 210 has some versions that are not on the 245, and those are not going to have the greatest thermal transfer.  If I had to choose between one or the other, I would definitely choose the 245 hand piece.  I typically don't go smaller than 0603 components for my own projects, and the 245 has tips that work just fine for those.
 

Offline SoundTech-LG

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2019, 08:47:48 pm »
Actually we have a whole building full of these older BD-2BA stations...  just replacing a few that got coffee spilled into them, etc...
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2019, 12:51:28 am »
After everything is taken into account Metcal is 10 times the running costs of Pace.

Depends on whether you buy new or used.  Nothing wrong with a used MX-500.  I scored a crazy deal trading some stuff I got for free at the local surplus store and by the time I was done, I have the PSU, Talon tweezers and stand, added NOS RM-3E wand and base and 8 tips for just north of $200 USD.  Metcal tips are getting a bit pricey but Thermaltronics makes tips that work for under $20 USD.  I have spent as little as $10 for a tip.

If you are willing to wait and hunt, there are deals to be had.  Shock, I know you love your Pace, but you will never persuade me to give up my Metcal! :-DD
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Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2019, 01:26:34 am »
When looking at stations it's clear some don't accurately show the tip temperature or overshoot when heating this gives a false indication of speed. Plus to get an idea of performance you need to at least compare stations with a tip thermometer and start by checking the calibration before testing.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/disappointed-with-jbc/

I read this thread a while ago, the Performance Comparison attached was for the JBC BD-2A station with T245-A handpiece. If you look at the recovery the JBC is overshooting, except at 400C it must have forgot to on that occasion. :D

From observing the slope and the stations I have a fair idea it's using an aggressive profile and recovering faster by applying more heating cycles. The problem in doing this is maintaining temperature accuracy and giving a false indication of performance. It's hard to do a side by side comparison without constantly observing the temperature especially with long dwell times which would favor the more aggressive profile.

This performance comparison was not the CD-1BQE station but I expect they are still doing similar. This is not about hating on JBC stations it's to highlight comparing stations and making assumptions on performance without complete data i.e. software, tip geometry and construction.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2019, 01:41:43 am »
If you are willing to wait and hunt, there are deals to be had.  Shock, I know you love your Pace, but you will never persuade me to give up my Metcal! :-DD

Congrats on the score, Heh no I would never do that. The only station people should be persuaded from buying now is the Hakko FX-951 (possibly the Hakko FX-203 in the future) :).
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2019, 03:23:30 am »
After everything is taken into account Metcal is 10 times the running costs of Pace.

Depends on whether you buy new or used.  Nothing wrong with a used MX-500.  I scored a crazy deal trading some stuff I got for free at the local surplus store and by the time I was done, I have the PSU, Talon tweezers and stand, added NOS RM-3E wand and base and 8 tips for just north of $200 USD.  Metcal tips are getting a bit pricey but Thermaltronics makes tips that work for under $20 USD.  I have spent as little as $10 for a tip.

If you are willing to wait and hunt, there are deals to be had.  Shock, I know you love your Pace, but you will never persuade me to give up my Metcal!  :-DD

But you can't easily change the tip temperature on a Metcal because it is totally fixed by the tip you are using. This reminds me of the old Weller WTCPN soldering stations with the fixed tip temperatures.  :-DD
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 03:43:39 am by snoopy »
 

Offline exe

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2019, 07:05:18 am »
From observing the slope and the stations I have a fair idea it's using an aggressive profile and recovering faster by applying more heating cycles.

I think this is a good feature, esp. if it can be turned on and off. Or, put it another way, adjustable PID settings.
 

Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2019, 07:39:54 am »
But you can't easily change the tip temperature on a Metcal because it is totally fixed by the tip you are using. This reminds me of the old Weller WTCPN soldering stations with the fixed tip temperatures.  :-DD

Depends what you mean by easily, but you can change to a different series tip to adjust the temp that's how Metcals work. That was the point I was making before, in order to solder at different temperatures it's about 10 times the cost of Pace (or about 3 times the cost of JBC), I'm sure GreyWoolfe is well aware of this though.

His Metcal MX-500 is still a good upgrade on the Hakko FX-951 and T12 series for recovery speed. But just because Metcal is Metcal it doesn't mean all the stations and irons are going to be the same. In the performance test JBC did (if that can even be trusted) it showed the Metcal PS800 taking over 45 seconds to reach set temp. I bet they cherry picked it for that reason.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2019, 08:04:28 am »
From observing the slope and the stations I have a fair idea it's using an aggressive profile and recovering faster by applying more heating cycles.

I think this is a good feature, esp. if it can be turned on and off. Or, put it another way, adjustable PID settings.

Yeah it must be switchable in firmware. Ersa calls it power level, if you look at the PDF I posted before you can see the huge overshoot on the Ersa.

I've mentioned it to Pace, obviously its a good feature if you just want pure performance and don't care about overshoot. I'm not sure if they want to market the Accudrive series as the Inaccudrive though hahah. I just had a big pointless discussion before about IPC standards, this might have been part of Paces motivation behind a new more accurate high power station.

I don't have the latest standard but IPC J-STD-001F states:
"A-2b Equipment should be able to maintain control within ±10°C [+18°F] of the selected or required temperature during multiple point-to-points or thermal mass on demand soldering operations to verify temperature stability."
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 08:24:27 am by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline exe

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2019, 08:40:55 am »
I don't have the latest standard but IPC J-STD-001F states:
"A-2b Equipment should be able to maintain control within ±10°C [+18°F] of the selected or required temperature during multiple point-to-points or thermal mass on demand soldering operations to verify temperature stability."

I have two points about this.

First, the standard you are referring to is for "electronics assembly manufacturing". Nowadays people use reflow for most part of the work. May be some final assembly (bigger connectors, etc) can use some manual labor, but a) temperature precision is not that important for connectors b) quality is controlled by visual inspection. I think here many people will agree with me that even "horrible poor performing overshooting JBC" does a great job, even though its default profile may not potentially comply to something.

Second, JBC claims for those who need compliance they have 25 profiles for different workflows, including the standard you mentioned: https://www.jbctools.com/new-compact-station-with-soldering-profiles-news-170.html . For their modular system they claim they have compliant profiles.

I also don't get where 10x/3x/whatever price difference comes from. JBC is indeed expensive, but it doesn't mean you have to have the whole range of tips. Many people solder with just two or three different tips. Instead of buying 10 different variants of chisel, I'd buy one chisel, one blade, may be one for qfp-32, and one with a cavity for wave soldering. Most of these are not even offered for Pace.

Anyway, if someone wants to throw their non-compliant JBC away, please let me know, I'll help with reducing e-waste.
 

Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2019, 10:45:01 am »
I think here many people will agree with me that even "horrible poor performing overshooting JBC" does a great job, even though its default profile may not potentially comply to something.

My point was mainly that software/control can be used to exaggerate performance by reducing the overall temperature accuracy of the station. It has to be a consideration at some point. The clone in the video appeared faster than the original JBC which is hilarious.

I also don't get where 10x/3x/whatever price difference comes from.

Metcal have different series tips that cover different soldering temperatures. Compared to JBC or Pace, Metcal is about 3-10 times more expensive for variable temp functionality.

Many people solder with just two or three different tips. Instead of buying 10 different variants of chisel, I'd buy one chisel, one blade, may be one for qfp-32, and one with a cavity for wave soldering. Most of these are not even offered for Pace.

Pace does chisels, miniwave (concave tip) and some blades, SOIC, QFP, TQFP have been added but not everything is moved over to the Accudrive series yet. If the Accudrive series follows what they did with Intelliheat I would expect it to grow with the release of the new stations and handpieces.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline exe

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2019, 11:14:15 am »
The clone in the video appeared faster than the original JBC which is hilarious.

I'm not sure which video you are talking about, but I comment anyway :).

JBCs performance was greatly mystified because no other brand could get close to it (except metcal). But I think the reason is simply no-one tried hard-enough. The big brands divided the market, they get their profit share, why invest into research?

Then Chinese t12 clones came, as well some DIY stations (unisolder and a few from youtube) and original developments like ts100/ts80. They show good performance. Looking at schematics I don't see any "know-how". It's just a pid-controller. For a soldering station, it doesn't need to be fancy, nor to be super-fast or precise. An STM32 with built-in 12bit ADC seems to do well. So, just a mcu, a power supply, a mosfet and a display is that all is needed.

So, I don't see why a Chinese clone cannot compete with big brands. Esp., if overshooting is allowed :). I'd say Chinese companies have an advantage because they have much more freedom. Say, they don't need to supply service and spare part for next 20 years, they don't need to comply with some standards that may not be of interest of most customers, etc. They can experiment with UI, with graphic displays, rotary encoders etc. Big brands either cannot do it, or afraid of it so they don't piss off existing customers.
 


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