Author Topic: JBC CD-1BQE  (Read 4213 times)

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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2019, 12:40:23 pm »
The power supply in the KSGER is supposed to be 24V / 5A which is 120W and upping the voltage slightly to say 29V would get me 145W.

Are you aware the Hakko T12 and T15 series 70w tips are the same as your Hakko FX-951 75W station uses? The clone T12 tips won't be any better than what you currently have.

Aliexpress says the Ksger is 75W (120W Max). 120W looks like a power supply maximum specification to me not the tip power consumption. I hope you're not expecting Pace and JBC performance after buying the Ksger. You are buying a cheap interface replacement with a smps.

Whatever the specs suggest, the KSGER has arrived and it's a little beast.  The actual unit was shipped from the USA but it only came with 1 tip, the one that looks like a fat Xacto knife, but I'm warming to it.  The heat delivery is excellent, way better than the Hakko FX-951 and the standby and sleep funtions well implemented.  One thing I discovered today was that a sleeping KSGER will come up RUNNING if the mains power goes out for a second or 2 which happened to me this morning - it's possible that there's a menu item to fix this.

I looked inside and the PCB build quality is OK but they were in a hurry soldering stuff together, when I have time I'll take it apart and improve it as well as grounding the case which is a bad oversight having 115V coming into a case that's not grounded.

My Jabe UD-1200 115V English menus also shipped today  from Alibaba.
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Offline labjr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2019, 10:27:39 pm »
I'm wondering how the heat delivery of the KSGER can be way better than the FX-951?  More overshoot in the programming? Inaccurate temperature display? Keep in mind that temperature cycling and accurate setback temperature probably affects the tip life.

I wonder if there will be any third party programming for the Pace ADS200 with more aggressive ramp up curves and maybe a bit of overshoot? Perhaps in time.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 03:19:06 am by labjr »
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2019, 03:16:21 am »
I'm wondering how the heat delivery of the KSGER can be way better than the FX-951?  More overshoot in the programming? Inaccurate temperature display? Keep in mind that temperature cycling and accurate setback temperature probably affects the tip life.

I wonder if there will be any third party programming for the Pace ADS200 with more aggressive ramp up curves and perhaps a bit of overshoot? Perhaps in time.

maybe similar heat delivery but the user interface on the fx-951 controller is brain dead and almost useless. The KSGER controller has a nice feature in that you can accurately calibrate each tip and add the calibration profile to a library of predefined T12 tip models thus making sure each tip works at its correct temperature. Don't know any other controller that has this feature. One of the perks of open source diy which is not limited by some MBA dickhead breathing down your neck for more shareholder return ;)

cheers
 
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Offline exe

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2019, 08:26:19 am »
Yeah, I think ksger UI almost nailed it. I'd change behavior a little bit (I'd make temperature change the default action, but I can live with current behavior). Rotary encoders FTW!
 

Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #54 on: June 11, 2019, 09:20:11 am »
I'm wondering how the heat delivery of the KSGER can be way better than the FX-951?  More overshoot in the programming? Inaccurate temperature display? Keep in mind that temperature cycling and accurate setback temperature probably affects the tip life.

Could be anything or nothing, easy to look at a more responsive displays and be mislead. I'd start by characterizing the tip, seeing if requires an offset and using the same tip in both stations. Measure the output voltage, check the tip calibration and get a feel for the overshoot with temperature thermometer. Then count heating cycles.

Quote
I wonder if there will be any third party programming for the Pace ADS200 with more aggressive ramp up curves and perhaps a bit of overshoot? Perhaps in time.

Well recovery is still fast, from what I can the curve only softens near set temp so I doubt nothing is lost in performance. It just means if a station has overshoot its the same as if someone had turned the set temp up 10-20 degrees etc. The Pace has a fairly simple circuit design so eventually someone will substitute in their own micro and software.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #55 on: June 11, 2019, 09:31:10 am »
Use the force Shock; let go!

Seriously, rather than wonder why we like a $50 soldering station better than a $500 one, why not go get one and try it?  My biggest complaint so far is that KSGER got the abbreviation for Thursday wrong.

If the KSGER interface is open source, can anyone point to where it is on Github?
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Offline exe

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #56 on: June 11, 2019, 09:55:59 am »
If the KSGER interface is open source, can anyone point to where it is on Github?

I'm afraid it's not. However, there might be an alternative opensource firmware...
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #57 on: June 11, 2019, 10:17:09 am »
If the KSGER interface is open source, can anyone point to where it is on Github?

I'm afraid it's not. However, there might be an alternative opensource firmware...
ptdreamer wrote alternative code for what looks like the KSGER, check out his blog page here and there's also a Github page that has all his code.  My thought is this... The PCB that ptdreamer reverse-engineered is not the same as the one that's in my KSGER stations - in mine the iron connector is a 5 or 6 pin connector on a PCB extension that's clearly designed to be snapped off.  However, if it's basically the same circuit then we have the basis for an open-source hardware and firmware solution.
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Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #58 on: June 11, 2019, 11:56:12 am »
Use the force Shock; let go!

Seriously, rather than wonder why we like a $50 soldering station better than a $500 one, why not go get one and try it?  My biggest complaint so far is that KSGER got the abbreviation for Thursday wrong.

If the KSGER interface is open source, can anyone point to where it is on Github?

Haha! Nah I'm good, I got plenty of soldering stations to keep me occupied. The next handpiece I'll be looking at is the new aluminum tweezers for the ADS200.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #59 on: June 11, 2019, 12:21:14 pm »
Anecdotal Tales from the Bench part 301

I've just been doing a soldering job this morning on a T0220 FET mounted on a PCB that has a vertical heat sink which is already attached to the FET. The 2 irons I used were the Hakko FX-951 (set to 345C) and the KSGER T12 (set to 300C).  On the S and D pins, the Hakko could barely melt the solder even after 10 seconds or so, the KSGER hit the pad and the solder flowed fully within a second or so.
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Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2019, 01:48:04 pm »
Now you have to determine why there was such a large difference. Because if the tip temps are the same and it's the same wattage tip why would one be better than the other.

Just curious though you didn't happen to buy your FX-951 off amazon, ebay or secondhand did you?
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline labjr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2019, 01:51:08 pm »
Did you use the same tip? Or swap tips?  Did you measure the tip temperatures?
 

Offline exe

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2019, 02:18:04 pm »
There are fake Hakko stations that look like real ones. That was one of the reasons I didn't buy it: too many fakes, too hard to identify which one is real. I'm personally not capable of recognizing Hakko fakes, differences are too subtle and unreliable. Like, boot up time, I see no reason why clones cannot "fix" it.

Also, I once was surprised how well my clone of Hakko 936 performed after I replaced the broken heater... Until I measured tip temperature :). Turned out there are different temperature sensors, my station didn't like the new handpiece and put temperature much higher than it should.
 

Offline labjr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2019, 02:18:59 pm »
BTW, while KSGER and other stations from banggood etc. may be good for hobbyist use, they probably wouldn't hold up for production use. The quality is questionable with dozens of variants of the same product from different sources. And there's no certifications for safety or otherwise. So it's not an apples to apples comparison. People are used to cheap knock-offs of everything. It seems unreasonable to expect real companies such as Hakko & Pace to compete price-wise with goods from Bangood and Aliexpress.
 

Offline exe

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2019, 02:33:12 pm »
The quality is questionable with dozens of variants of the same product from different sources.

There are clones, but I thought KSGER means a very specific t12 controller that is sold from an official aliexpress shop. I'd suggest buy from there, do not buy clone of a clone :)

Concerning safety, I wouldn't trust it, it's up to the buyer to check isolation and grounding :/ Ofc, no certs/compliance either.

It seems unreasonable to expect real companies such as Hakko & Pace to compete price-wise with goods from Bangood and Aliexpress.

I still think there is a lot of room to make branded products more accessible. Plus, for some reason, for example, ads200 costs ~%50 more in Europe than in US. While KSGER has same price everywhere. Not to say there are no artificial limitations which many big vendors like to put to segment the market and make maximum profit. This used to work, but...  I'd say the market landscape is changing, will see what's going to happen next.

BTW, is there really that big demand for certified hand-soldering stations? Who buys them (except mil/gov)? I doubt a typical repair shop would care about certs.
 

Offline labjr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2019, 03:22:24 pm »
I've been thinking about replacing my 25 yr old Weller station for a couple years now but haven't pulled the trigger. I service mostly older pro audio, stereo equipment with through-hole parts and point-to-point wired vacuum tube stuff. The fact that I've had the Weller for 25 years is telling. That thing fell into a bucket of water ten years ago and survived. Reliability is one of the criteria for my purchase. But An OLED display that tells me the date is not. Cost of consumables is also important to me. I don't want to be changing a $30 tip every two weeks. I don't want to be fiddling with bad connectors and strange temperature issues or a switching power supply with Sungwa caps when I have a job to do. I don't buy tools at Harbor Freight because I expect my equipment to work when I need to use it .
 

Offline exe

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2019, 04:53:16 pm »
But An OLED display that tells me the date is not.

Afaik it's a cheap standard module that cost $5-9 or so.

I don't want to be changing a $30 tip every two weeks

Common tips are about $5 as well... You can also buy original Hakko cartridges, if needed.

Anyway, if you do things professionally and can justify the price of a good station then there is probably nothing to discuss. Chinese clones obviously cannot provide same confidence as established brands, that's how those brands survive :).

I myself started doing electronics when I didn't have a stable income, so I had to stick to solutions that didn't require much investment upfront. So, I wasn't given a choice of buying a cheap station, or a rework station from JBC with full set of tools and cartridges :). Now I can buy any station I want, but with my modest soldering needs I don't the point, nor I want to support ridiculous pricing and artificial market segmentation most brands try to do.
 

Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2019, 04:55:52 pm »
I still think there is a lot of room to make branded products more accessible. Plus, for some reason, for example, ads200 costs ~%50 more in Europe than in US. While KSGER has same price everywhere. Not to say there are no artificial limitations which many big vendors like to put to segment the market and make maximum profit. This used to work, but...  I'd say the market landscape is changing, will see what's going to happen next.

BTW, is there really that big demand for certified hand-soldering stations? Who buys them (except mil/gov)? I doubt a typical repair shop would care about certs.

Pace are shipped to the UK and then the rest of Europe distributors as far as I'm aware, so tax and currency conversion plus shipping doesn't help, I think their MSRP is quite reasonable considering costs of importing from the US. Pace stations in the past were fairly expensive.

Aside from the MSRP distributors set their own price at the end of the day, all you can do is look for the cheapest or go on Amazon or Ebay and see if you can find the Euro voltage version at a decent price.

Any manufacturer that has standards compliance and does hand soldering, so anything to do with safety and critical systems, medical, aviation, automotive, energy, telecommunications.

The market landscape would change overnight if someone did an exposé on how many non safety compliant imports there are in the wild. Most of them are only picked up when someone gets hurt.
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline labjr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2019, 05:06:28 pm »
Pace was fairly expensive here in the US until the ADS200 came out. Obviously, the lower price was meant to compete with Hakko. I think the US version of the ADS200 can be rewired for 220V but I haven't checked it myself. Someone here in the US could probably ship one to anyone who used a freight forwarding service.

I also expect that someone, at some point will make a drop in controller PCB for the ADS200 that has a better UI.
 

Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2019, 06:17:56 pm »
Pace was fairly expensive here in the US until the ADS200 came out. Obviously, the lower price was meant to compete with Hakko. I think the US version of the ADS200 can be rewired for 220V but I haven't checked it myself. Someone here in the US could probably ship one to anyone who used a freight forwarding service.

Unless someone has checked the transformer assume it's a no, they have always sold a separate US and Europe version.

You would have to look for Aaron Caplans exact quote but I believe they lowered the station price and with that expected to sell more tips/consumables. So it sounded like changing their sales model rather than move in on someones turf. But yes they are competing with Hakko and JBC, especially in the prosumer market now.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 06:20:03 pm by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline labjr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2019, 06:28:51 pm »

Unless someone has checked the transformer assume it's a no, they have always sold a separate US and Europe version.


Judging by the tear-down video and photos, there appears to be two primary windings. If you have one, you could take it apart and check? I'm surprised someone hasn't done it yet.
 

Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2019, 07:38:13 pm »
Judging by the tear-down video and photos, there appears to be two primary windings. If you have one, you could take it apart and check? I'm surprised someone hasn't done it yet.

In the back of the 230V model it looks like you could possibly parallel them for 120V operation, highly depends if the windings are identical of course. Not seen a clear shot of the of the 120V transformer, Cliff took a couple of photos of his but only saw two primary wires, unless I'm mistaken (which does need checking).
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline labjr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2019, 07:43:48 pm »
It was mentioned in the Pace thread. Aaron didn't comment about it. I think because he's not going to condone circumventing local dealers. Something tells me he would've commented if it wasn't possible.  ;D

No big deal though. One could always use a step-down transformer. If I lived where there was 220v power, I probably would have one myself. Historically, there's been a lot of equipment that's less expensive in the US market. I convert old Conn Strobe tuners to 220v and change the calibration circuitry for 50hz, because relatively few of them were made for the European market.   
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 05:11:05 pm by labjr »
 

Offline Shock

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2019, 08:19:44 pm »
It was mentioned in the Pace thread. Aaron didn't comment about it. I think because he's not going to condone circumventing local dealers. Something tells me he would've commented if it wasn't possible.  ;D

Geez you're inventive :D. He said he couldn't remember why they don't have dual voltages. He is the Director of Marketing not Engineering, nice conspiracy theory though heheh. But anyway someone needs to check with Cliff or find a photo of the back of the 120V version. I can't tell from this photo, which shows Cliffs mod adding a 40V secondary aux power supply along with some creative fuse mounting.

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 09:15:00 pm by Shock »
Soldering/Rework: Pace ADS200, Pace MBT350
Multimeters: Fluke 87V, 117, 27/FM
Oscilloscopes: Rigol DS1054Z, Phillips PM3065
 

Offline labjr

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Re: JBC CD-1BQE
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2019, 09:18:39 pm »
I suspect they use the same transformer. If the 220v model has a dual primary winding but the US version does not, what other conclusion could you come to other than protecting the foreign markets? Aaron knows that. Come on!
 


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