Author Topic: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102  (Read 20794 times)

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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2015, 07:41:56 am »
some low end monochrome crappy 1Gsps DPOs for almost free (the list proce is 2.8K each, which I believe no one will buy it nowadays

You'd be surprised  ;)

Two examples cases I can immediately think of:

o on an existing active production line, the cost of re-developing test processes to use a new scope would easily outstrip the 2.8k price;

o in education, an entire course may well have been engineered a few years ago around a particular scope, the cost and time to produce a new course and re-equip a lab will be far more than picking up a replacement or odd additional scope.

But in essence the OP right, I wouldn't buy the Tek TDS2024B I bought a decade ago again for about that price (£1,800), but to be fair it has paid for itself many, many times over during that time. Technology and bang for buck has improved no end in that time, I'd be nuts to want to replace it with the same again in my one-man-band lab for the same cost. While it is a bit of a dinosaur these days, one thing that can be said for it though is that it doesn't have any bugs!
 

Online H.O

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2015, 07:59:29 am »
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But the sad reality is that you can't do a lot with it as there are no search or analysis tools to find stuff like runts or glitches in memory.
That may be the case if you do a single acquisition and fill the 140Mpts of memory. However, if you use the segmented memory feature and fill that 140Mpts of memory with, for example, ~32000 frames each 14kpts long then you can use analyze mode (yes the scope has one) to compare each frame to either a reference waveform (and you can set a threshold for how much it's allowed to deviate) or a pass/fail mask. The scope will then do the analysis and flag all frames considered to be in error and you can jump back and forth between them as you wish.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2015, 09:05:07 am »
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But the sad reality is that you can't do a lot with it as there are no search or analysis tools to find stuff like runts or glitches in memory.
That may be the case if you do a single acquisition and fill the 140Mpts of memory. However, if you use the segmented memory feature and fill that 140Mpts of memory with, for example, ~32000 frames each 14kpts long then you can use analyze mode (yes the scope has one) to compare each frame to either a reference waveform (and you can set a threshold for how much it's allowed to deviate) or a pass/fail mask. The scope will then do the analysis and flag all frames considered to be in error and you can jump back and forth between them as you wish.

Actually that sounds pretty cumbersome, but I guess on the DS6000 it's necessary as mask testing is pretty slow on that scope (too slow for proper real time use). Plus this only works on repetitive signals, and for those on other scopes I'd just setup mask test and histogram in real-time.

I also had a look at the DS6000 manual, and it seems the "analysis" mode is really just that, mask testing/comparison against a waveform template during the playback of a sampled dataset, and that seems to be it. That's really not much more than what you get with cheap low end scopes like the DS2000 (and I wouldn't be surprised if the DS1000z can do that as well), and nothing to write home about in for a scope in the class of a DS6000.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2015, 09:11:50 am »
some low end monochrome crappy 1Gsps DPOs for almost free (the list proce is 2.8K each, which I believe no one will buy it nowadays

You'd be surprised  ;)

Two examples cases I can immediately think of:

o on an existing active production line, the cost of re-developing test processes to use a new scope would easily outstrip the 2.8k price;

o in education, an entire course may well have been engineered a few years ago around a particular scope, the cost and time to produce a new course and re-equip a lab will be far more than picking up a replacement or odd additional scope.

A lot of these scopes go to certain customers that traditionally buy Tek and who were offered these scopes when they needed some low end scope. Usually those that do the deals have no idea what else is out there, so they apply the IBM principle (no-one got ever fired for buying IBM).

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Technology and bang for buck has improved no end in that time, I'd be nuts to want to replace it with the same again in my one-man-band lab for the same cost. While it is a bit of a dinosaur these days, one thing that can be said for it though is that it doesn't have any bugs!

That's a positive. I guess the costs to produce those scopes should be pretty low these days, so Tek certainly doesn't need to charge these ridiculous prices and could probably sell much more of them if the price was much more reasonable (doesn't even have to be cheap). But then, that would be against the way things are done in Danaher  ;)
 

Online H.O

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2015, 09:41:38 am »
It's funny because when a "A-brand" scope is "criticised" for not having long memory the "A-brand people" says it doesn't need it because one can just set up a trigger to capture that runt pulse (or glitch or  whatever) anyway. Now when a B-brand scope does have long memory IT can't be used to capture that runt pulse (or glitch or whatever) because there is no (not enough or the correct) search/analysis/navigation tools....

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Plus this only works on repetitive signals, and for those on other scopes I'd just setup mask test and histogram in real-time.
I don't understand, if the signal isn't repetitive how well does the mask testing work on those other scopes?

Yes, real time mask testing on, at least my DS4k, is pretty slow. Analyzing recorded frames is quite quick though.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2015, 10:21:27 am »
It's funny because when a "A-brand" scope is "criticised" for not having long memory the "A-brand people" says it doesn't need it because one can just set up a trigger to capture that runt pulse (or glitch or  whatever) anyway. Now when a B-brand scope does have long memory IT can't be used to capture that runt pulse (or glitch or whatever) because there is no (not enough or the correct) search/analysis/navigation tools....

First, A-brands are regularly critiziced for their often small sample memory, i.e. Keysight with their 'new' DSOX3kT with 4M (which is due to limitations of their MegaZoom ASIC).

Second, you're right, a proper set of triggers and analysis tools helps a lot of capturing a problem, and it does so in real-time. But the DS6000 has nothing of that sort, all it has is a very large sample memory.

I'm not saying you can't capture glitches with the DS6000, but frankly these days and in this scope class the last thing I want to do is to sit through recordings and wait for the scope to do one-to-one comparisons, which is the only way you can find your glitches with the DS6000. This was a common method with DSOs in the late '90s/early 2000's, but in the mid-range class we have long moved on from that, plus as I said before, this method only works for repetitive signals (for debugging non-repetitive signals the DS6000 has even less to offer).

These days in this scope class I'd expect to see the signal analyzed in real-time, with every deviation from the preset conditions highlighted in a histogram. This gives me more or less immediate feedback on when exactly a problem occurs, and that helps tremendously to isolate the source of a problem. And for that I don't really need 140M of memory, but I need proper triggers and a fast processing subsystem that can cope with the data.

This is the standard that the big brands offer in this class.

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Plus this only works on repetitive signals, and for those on other scopes I'd just setup mask test and histogram in real-time.
I don't understand, if the signal isn't repetitive how well does the mask testing work on those other scopes?

You misunderstood. I was stating that your method works for repetitive signals only, and that for those (repetitive signals) I'd use real-time mask testing and histogram mode on other scopes.

For non-repetitive waveforms mask testing isn't well suited for obvious reasons, and for that I'd use advanced triggers or (on my LeCroy scopes) WaveScan to capture deviations in real-time.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 10:25:09 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline hs3

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2015, 10:34:13 am »

Second, you're right, a proper set of triggers and analysis tools helps a lot of capturing a problem, and it does so in real-time. But the DS6000 has nothing of that sort, all it has is a very large sample memory.


Could you clarify what these proper triggers are that all the "A-brand" scopes have but that are missing from the DS6000? Some specifics should help understanding this better.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2015, 04:56:17 pm »
The first item I bought, signal hound SA44B, has arrived. If you guys want a quick review, please give me some ideas in this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/signal-hound-usb-sa44b-review/.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2015, 07:15:32 pm »
Could you clarify what these proper triggers are that all the "A-brand" scopes have but that are missing from the DS6000? Some specifics should help understanding this better.

Well, examples for basic triggers would be Runt Trigger (captures meta-stable pulses, i.e. pulses with reduced amplitude, most scopes can also combine it with a time condition), Timeout trigger (absent pulses), Sequence Trigger (A/B Trigger, armes after one condition and triggers at another, different condition). Especially the first two are pretty useful.

These triggers are pretty basic stuff for probably any big brand mid-range scope made in the last 15 years or so. All of them seem to be absent from the DS6000.

Keysight's competitor scope to the DS6000 (DSOX3000T) also offers Zone Triggering (triggers for an even in a specific zone of the waveform).

My (!!!) personal favorite however is WaveScan:



(Please be aware that the video is from 2008 but it's still a good explanation what WaveScan does). WaveScan (which works on captured data as well as on real-time data) was originally only available in high-end scopes but these days it's also standard in LeCroy's mid-range scope that competes in the DS6000's class (WaveSurfer 3000).

Even Tek's MDO3k has somewhat similar toolsets (Wave Inspector) and triggers.

« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 07:50:02 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2015, 06:13:37 pm »
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Well, examples for basic triggers would be Runt Trigger (captures meta-stable pulses, i.e. pulses with reduced amplitude, most scopes can also combine it with a time condition), Timeout trigger (absent pulses), Sequence Trigger (A/B Trigger, armes after one condition and triggers at another, different condition). Especially the first two are pretty useful.

Is runt trigger really missing, or is it just that the manual is incorrect for the DS6k?

The DS4k has runt for example, and I remember checking the manual available online at that time - because of something you said actually - and noticed that there were more features in the scope than shown in the manual. The manual has been updated for the DS4k since then.

I think missing pulse trigger could be emulated by the Rigol pulse trigger - trigger on a negative pulse width greater than normal.

 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #60 on: October 19, 2015, 09:01:22 pm »
Not sure what makes you think a repair agreement for a $3600 device is $1.1k (which would be ludicrous)
Well, it was from your own post:
3yr repair agreement for roughly 1/3rd of the price of a new one in basic config
I got the price of a new one and divided by three...

That said, the amounts you mentioned are much more reasonable, but contingent to a reasonably priced and well maintained used equipment from eBay (as blueskull said and I can attest, the clearance center has spotless equipment).

Because, as an engineer, I am well aware that any piece of complex electronics can fail,
I was just pulling your leg with this one (thus the O0 icon) - agree 100% and wish Rigol would do the same.

I deal with a lot of test equipment as part of my job(...)
From this point and on everything was already discussed in several other threads (here, here and here are just some examples); no need to revisit all this again.

I still think the price/performance ratio of the clearance center is very compelling for hobbyists/enthusiasts, also due to the number of bugs already fixed in the latest firmware releases (for example, one of the bug lists for DS4000 in this forum is mostly outdated). If anything, it shows they are listening and improving step by step - obviously I am a newcomer as my DS4014 is two months old, but others such as Dr. Diesel suffered longer with the existing bugs and are clearly more frustrated with it.

Rigol is a relative newcomer to the market and it is fighting on price, even in mid range models - otherwise, I suspect the A-brands wouldn't be so generous with their free upgrades and discounted bundles. In my opinion, Rigol (and other B-brands) are putting a lot of pressure to materialize all this generosity, only lacking time and resources to reach the level of expertise of the A-brands (which will still take some time if they are running a low profit operation).
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2015, 11:02:44 am »
Not sure what makes you think a repair agreement for a $3600 device is $1.1k (which would be ludicrous)
Well, it was from your own post:
3yr repair agreement for roughly 1/3rd of the price of a new one in basic config
I got the price of a new one and divided by three...

Actually what I said was "... I recently bought an 33522B AWG on ebay and a 3yr repair agreement for roughly 1/3rd of the price of a new one in basic config (while the one from ebay came with several options)...". The '1/3rd of the price of a new one' refered to what I paid for the whole setup (device plus repair agreement).

I agree that 1/3rd of a device's RRP would be pretty expensive for a repair agreement  ;)

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That said, the amounts you mentioned are much more reasonable, but contingent to a reasonably priced and well maintained used equipment from eBay

Really, all that is required is that the device is working when you buy the agreement (and if it doesn't work then ebay pretty much has you covered anyways).

As to price, unless you want something really special/rare then there are often deals to be had. Keysight's ebay store is always a good start.

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I still think the price/performance ratio of the clearance center is very compelling for hobbyists/enthusiasts, also due to the number of bugs already fixed in the latest firmware releases (for example, one of the bug lists for DS4000 in this forum is mostly outdated). If anything, it shows they are listening and improving step by step - obviously I am a newcomer as my DS4014 is two months old, but others such as Dr. Diesel suffered longer with the existing bugs and are clearly more frustrated with it.

I haven't read through the various threads as I don't own a Rigol scope, but as mentioned before I know a few owners of the higher priced Rigol kit, and while they said that many issues have been fixed for the DS4000 there are still issues which are pretty annoying, and it appears the DS6000 sees even less love from Rigol than the DS4000.

It's great that Rigol has fixed many of the bugs in the DS4000, but frankly the scope should have never been brought to market with that number of bugs in the first place. Plus it seems that the higher bandwidth models of the DS4000 suffer from some stability issues for which Rigol so far has been unable to find the root cause (apparently it's some hardware problem, not a firmware issue).

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Rigol is a relative newcomer to the market and it is fighting on price, even in mid range models - otherwise, I suspect the A-brands wouldn't be so generous with their free upgrades and discounted bundles. In my opinion, Rigol (and other B-brands) are putting a lot of pressure to materialize all this generosity, only lacking time and resources to reach the level of expertise of the A-brands (which will still take some time if they are running a low profit operation).

I'm sorry but even when leaving brand reputation, support, firmware bugs etc aside, there isn't much which would sway me to buy a Rigol instead of an A-brand, neither in features nor in (retail) price.

I would agree with you 100% if we were talking about low-end/entry-level scopes, but I honestly can't see how Rigol would be putting pressure on the mid-range class with scopes that are inferior in terms of performance and features while costing almost the same as their a-brand competitors. Even less so when also considering that, while a lot of entry level scopes are bought by hobbyists, mid-range scopes are generally bought by businesses where vendor support and reputation play a much bigger role (and any price advantage that Rigol may have in the retail market is essentially void).

The simple reason why the big brands come up with promos is because of competition from other A-brands (i.e. Keysight's current promo for the DSOX3kT is a reaction to LeCroy pushing WaveSurfer 3000 scopes at very low prices into the market). Rigol plays no part in that.

But at the end of the day I guess it comes down price and expectations, and I guess if the price is sufficiently low (and I mean really low!) and you're fine with a basic scope (and can live with the bugs and the basic support) then a DS6000 might be worth considering. But still, many people (especially when upgrading from low-end scopes) are often not familiar with the mid-range market, and unaware what the mid-range class offers much more than what can be found in Rigol's products (something you can see quite regularly on these forums, probably because a large part of its member base are hobbyists). Which is why doing some research before making a purchase decision is important.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 11:14:20 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #62 on: October 20, 2015, 06:08:41 pm »
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Plus it seems that the higher bandwidth models of the DS4000 suffer from some stability issues for which Rigol so far has been unable to find the root cause (apparently it's some hardware problem, not a firmware issue).

Could you elaborate on the stability issues on the high bandwidth models, I hadn't heard that before.
 

Offline commongrounder

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #63 on: October 20, 2015, 06:50:05 pm »
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Plus it seems that the higher bandwidth models of the DS4000 suffer from some stability issues for which Rigol so far has been unable to find the root cause (apparently it's some hardware problem, not a firmware issue).


Could you elaborate on the stability issues on the high bandwidth models, I hadn't heard that before.



+1 on that.  I follow Rigol DS4000 issues pretty closely and haven't heard of this either.  Wuerstchenhund, what is your source for this information?
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #64 on: October 20, 2015, 07:18:15 pm »
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Plus it seems that the higher bandwidth models of the DS4000 suffer from some stability issues for which Rigol so far has been unable to find the root cause (apparently it's some hardware problem, not a firmware issue).

Could you elaborate on the stability issues on the high bandwidth models, I hadn't heard that before.

As I said, I don't have a Rigol scope myself so I don't follow its issues closely, but it seems that at least some of the 500MHz variants apparently suffer from regular lock-ups. I don't know if its limited to certain hardware versions, and if so if all of them are affected or just some, but from what I was told Rigol is aware of the problem but doesn't know what causes it and how to fix it.

Wuerstchenhund, what is your source for this information?

Two owners of DS4054s I know of which one is now through his third replacement scope.

If my memory serves me right then I believe that this (or a similar) issue was also mentioned in this forum some time ago (the thread was I think about someone who had a Tek DSO dying on him looking for a new scope that for some reason shouldn't contain PC hardware).
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #65 on: October 21, 2015, 12:25:19 am »
Duuuuuh, fail.

I got the scope today, and as expected, nice and hefty building quality, as well as numerous bugs.

Here is a bug list at a glance:
1. BNC connector on CH2 is rotated by a couple degrees, mounting active probes will be painful.
2. ETS, which is why I paid so much, is not working. It is definitely working internally since I can see jitter caused by delay lines showing on transition parts of the waveform, but even at ETS mode, I still only get 2.5 points/div at 500ps/div at 5Gsps.
3. The unit is pumping air at a very fast speed that is is almost 20% as loud as my air conditioner. Even though, it runs at 40 deg centigrade as system monitor shows.
4. No options to stop option trial timer. The timer will tick as long as I power up the unit.

Besides, no big problems at all. 1GHz BW is real, I hooked up this thing to a pulse generator and it is really a 1GHz scope. The probe is really nice, slim and firm, the best quality probe I have used ever, even compared to high end Tek passive probes. Well, these probes are as expensive as a D1054Z, each.

I already emailed RigolNA and RigolHQ to see how exactly to use the ETS function. I will update later.

Finally, a big rant on TEquipment. I quoted 2*T2R1000 adapters, and they didn't reply until I paid. That is bull s[censored]t smart marketing hypocrisy.

Edit: corrected some grammatical mistakes as well as typos.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 12:38:32 am by blueskull »
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #66 on: October 21, 2015, 04:28:31 pm »
Actually what I said was (..)
Hahaha! Funny how two people can read the same sentence and have completely different understandings... :)

As to price, unless you want something really special/rare then there are often deals to be had. Keysight's ebay store is always a good start.
Apart from one offer I saw a while ago, I am still to find another really competitive offer from Keysight's eBay store for hobbyist/enthusiast level oscilloscopes. But that may be just me...

It's great that Rigol has fixed many of the bugs in the DS4000, but frankly the scope should have never been brought to market with that number of bugs in the first place.
No contest there. Despite I still think Rigol's struggle with firmware is understandable from a newcomer perspective, I don't think it should have been released with so many issues from the get go.

I'm sorry but even when leaving brand reputation, support, firmware bugs etc aside, there isn't much which would sway me to buy a Rigol instead of an A-brand, neither in features nor in (retail) price.

I would agree with you 100% if we were talking about low-end/entry-level scopes, but I honestly can't see how Rigol would be putting pressure on the mid-range class with scopes that are inferior in terms of performance and features while costing almost the same as their a-brand competitors. Even less so when also considering that, while a lot of entry level scopes are bought by hobbyists, mid-range scopes are generally bought by businesses where vendor support and reputation play a much bigger role (and any price advantage that Rigol may have in the retail market is essentially void).
It is hard to dissociate brand from overall quality perception, but I would not probably be swayed either by price alone if I had my rear end on the line (nobody is fired for buying IBM). However, one point that A-brands should be concerned is that, as people use Rigol's gear as hobbyists, they start to get comfortable with its quirks and interface. If Rigol survives long enough in this marketplace, there is a strong chance they will eat the market from the ground up.

But at the end of the day I guess it comes down price and expectations, and I guess if the price is sufficiently low (and I mean really low!) and you're fine with a basic scope (and can live with the bugs and the basic support) then a DS6000 might be worth considering.
In hindsight, I think my comments were swayed by the price I got for my DS4104 (US$1.6k with new 500MHz passive probes), which was pretty difficult to match with eBay's offers of newer generation oscilloscopes from the A-brands (yes, I did a large search as I mentioned here). Closer to US$3k the search can be widely expanded.
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Online H.O

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #67 on: October 21, 2015, 05:58:57 pm »
For me, as a hobbyist, when I purchased my DS4014 in 2012 there simple was no alternative at that price point for a 4 channel 100MHz 4Gs/s scope - that I could find. Heck I couldn't even FIND a list price for some of the A-brand models.... When my 100MHz scope later turned out to be "upgrdeable" to a 500MHz scope that price/performance ratio got even better - a lot better.

As for the problems with the DS6102 that this thread is about,
1 and 2 sucks for sure. It'll be very interesting to hear what they say about it.
3 It's personal preference I think. Some people think Rigol scopes are loud, some don't. My DS4014 was pretty loud so I replaced the fan at the cost of a slightly warmer unit. They could probably have done a bit better but I wouldn't call it a bug/issue/problem.
4 Just the way they decided to do it, it's the same on all their stuff as far as I know. If you ask I'd be surprised won't supply you with new trial licenses. Or you might want to look into getting them activated permanently, though I don't know how compatibel the DS6k is with the others in that regard.....

 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #68 on: October 21, 2015, 06:10:46 pm »
Hahaha! Funny how two people can read the same sentence and have completely different understandings... :)

I guess that's one of the limitations of this form of communication. Also, English isn't my first language, so I'll probably make a fair bit of mistakes.

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Apart from one offer I saw a while ago, I am still to find another really competitive offer from Keysight's eBay store for hobbyist/enthusiast level oscilloscopes. But that may be just me...

I doubt that, and it can sometimes be difficult to find the good one amongst the masses of overpriced crap on ebay. As to the Keysight store, not everything there is priced attractively (especially older gear can be overly expensive), but they seem to not list everything they have, so it might be worth just asking them if they can offer you the item you want.

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No contest there. Despite I still think Rigol's struggle with firmware is understandable from a newcomer perspective, I don't think it should have been released with so many issues from the get go.

I wouldn't call them a newcomer, in fact, Rigol makes scopes for much longer than say Rohde & Schwarz (the first Rigol scope came out around 2002 if I remember right). They have also produced entry-level scopes for Agilent. You'd think that being in the business for over a decade that by now they have figured out that software is as important as hardware. And they really got the hardware bit right (the hardware quality is pretty good), they (unlike Siglent) even managed to come up with some decent UIs for their kit.

A while ago I talked with some colleagues who worked in China, and they said that the reason why software in Chinese products regularly sucks is pretty much cultural, as software isn't considered valuable over there (one reason why piracy is so high there). Which isn't that surprising, considering that the same thinking as (and still is) prevaillent in some Western companies, but by now it should be pretty clear that to get somewhere in T&M the whole package (software and hardware) must be right. Good support is a big thing as well. That Rigol still doesn't understand that is worrying, even more so when they now have a US subsidiary which you'd think would help get the software quality issues sorted out, but it doesn't look like that's the case.

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It is hard to dissociate brand from overall quality perception, but I would not probably be swayed either by price alone if I had my rear end on the line (nobody is fired for buying IBM). However, one point that A-brands should be concerned is that, as people use Rigol's gear as hobbyists, they start to get comfortable with its quirks and interface. If Rigol survives long enough in this marketplace, there is a strong chance they will eat the market from the ground up.

I doubt that. Any hobbyist who decides to pursue the career of an EE will very likely get into contact with big brand kit on college, and even if not there then very likely when starting to work as EE. And the enthusiasm for Rigol will hardly last long when confronted with the superior capabilities of a A-brand mid-range scope, plus the fact that the big brand scope is unlikely to suffer from similar firmware issues as the Rigol gear. Most EE graduates we get know Rigol (usually because they own some Rigol kit) but the majority seems to be well aware that there is quite a difference between Rigol and big brand, especially outside the entry-level class. And as big brands are essentially giving gear away for education this is unlikely to change anytime soon.

We also have had a few people who really didn't know much more than their Rigol scope (or their old analog banger). We usually sit them on a bench with a modern DSO and some low complexity circuit and ask them to perform some simple tasks (i.e. measure signal jitter). If they then start to fiddle with cursors then they get a quick introduction into the jitter analysis package, at which point you can hear the penny drop  ;)

Seriously, unless Rigol comes up with something groundbreaking they will remain stuck to the entry level/hobbyist/startup market, and even if they do they'd still have to dramatically improve support to even make a dent.

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In hindsight, I think my comments were swayed by the price I got for my DS4104 (US$1.6k with new 500MHz passive probes), which was pretty difficult to match with eBay's offers of newer generation oscilloscopes from the A-brands (yes, I did a large search as I mentioned here). Closer to US$3k the search can be widely expanded.

Well, $1600 isn't a bad price for a hackable 4ch scope, and in the end it only comes down on what you want the scope to do and if you can live with its bugs and Rigols support.

Back to the topic, for what the OP wants to do and the amount he could spend I'm sure there would have been a few big brand options available for the money he was willing to spend and considering that he's obviously fine with only 3months warranty. Especially if the requirement is ETS (although for that price you could also find a scope with proper jitter analysis software).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 06:15:59 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #69 on: October 21, 2015, 07:16:29 pm »
We too have bought a DS6104. The price/performance ratio of it hasn't been beaten.
Overall, I like it. With two adc's we can run two channels on 5GSa/s or 4 channels on 2.5GSa/s.

Firmware is always a weak spot with Rigol. With the default fw version 00.01.04 it's impossible to use it via LAN.
The scope freezes completely. Via USB it works apart from that it's not possible to download the deep memory waveform data.

I reported the bugs three months ago and a couple of days ago we received a newer firmware (00.02.00.SP5) that solved the issue with the memory downloading
and the freezing of the scope when using LAN but as always it introduced a new bug.
When using LAN to poll for parameters and values, the scope sometimes responds with "command error" instead of the requested value.
Still, USB connection works fine.

Well, DS6102 has only one ADC, so it must operate at 2.5Gsps at 2 channels. Anyway it doesn't matter to me because I will be using ETS.

The firmware was upgraded to the latest before shipping, according to their sales team.

I will see if I can discover more bugs, and include them in the review as well.
Make sure you can return it and don't think twice about returning it if you find nasty bugs. There is no use to spend this kind of money on a product which doesn't work properly. You quickly forget the amount of money you spend but annoyances keep haunting you forever!

In that price range you could also have bought a used Agilent DSO7104 (with all options liberated) and have a scope you know will work as advertised (BTW the Agilent 7000 seriest has 400Gs/s ETS and MSO). I went down the 'cheap' Chinese mid-range scope road before and ended up wasting a lot of money.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 07:51:29 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #70 on: October 21, 2015, 08:58:43 pm »
Make sure you can return it and don't think twice about returning it if you find nasty bugs. There is no use to spend this kind of money on a product which doesn't work properly. You quickly forget the amount of money you spend but annoyances keep haunting you forever!

In that price range you could also have bought a used Agilent DSO7104 (with all options liberated) and have a scope you know will work as advertised (BTW the Agilent 7000 seriest has 400Gs/s ETS and MSO). I went down the 'cheap' Chinese mid-range scope road before and ended up wasting a lot of money.

I called them and they said they are happy to refund this item. I gave them a couple of days to see if they can solve the ETS problem, if not, I will return this item.

Email response is slow, they only gave me this response after I wrote an email to RigolNA, where I purchased this item, an email to RigolHQ and a call to RigolNA.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #71 on: October 21, 2015, 09:38:23 pm »
blueskull, in addition to nctnico's suggestion I would take a look at this one as well. 20ns/div in RIS (ETS) mode, manufacturer refurbished with passive probes. (perhaps with that I get to Wuerstchenhund's good side again :))

I only wish I was able to cough up that kind of money with my hobby...
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #72 on: October 21, 2015, 10:31:57 pm »
blueskull, in addition to nctnico's suggestion I would take a look at this one as well. 20ns/div in RIS (ETS) mode, manufacturer refurbished with passive probes. (perhaps with that I get to Wuerstchenhund's good side again :))

I only wish I was able to cough up that kind of money with my hobby...

I guess you meant 20ps/div. I considered this one seriously, and apparently this is the only 10Gsps model I can afford, but it is just too big. If I had a house own by myself that I can modify its garage I would definitely get one.

I will give Rigol some more time to solve this. If they can not, I will probably go with an used MSO7102 or new PicoScope 6404C.

I know it is a USB one, but I can go with that. I've been using my Owon VDS3102 and Analog Discovery for more than a year, and I found them handy in some aspects compared to my lab's bench top DPO2024. I do screeshot and ATE programmings sometime.
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #73 on: October 21, 2015, 10:45:57 pm »
Whatever you do, don't hold onto it thinking they'll fix it someday because you never know if that will happen.  Good luck.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Just ordered a Rigol DS6102
« Reply #74 on: October 21, 2015, 10:56:28 pm »
Whatever you do, don't hold onto it thinking they'll fix it someday because you never know if that will happen.  Good luck.
I agree. I made that mistake with Siglent. Someone on this forum once commented something along this line: 'if it ain't there out of the box don't expect it to arrive later'. The sooner you return something because it doesn't work properly the easier it is to get your money back!

I suspect the DS6102 is a customer return hence the discount and shorter warranty.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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