Author Topic: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services  (Read 30327 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #100 on: August 08, 2021, 04:27:30 pm »
The lack of freely available support documentation (known as CLIP) with schematic drawings, parts lists, etc is in my opinion another reason to be careful when selecting an instrument supplier. The instruments used at my workplace has to be there for a long time. Thus, the strategy that I implemented was this:

If the instrument did not need to meet any stringent specifications that required a brand new state of the art device, I always purchased old second hand instruments where CLIP was available. Such instruments are quite inexpenceive. As long as they work, fine. If they fail, I was normally able to fix them. If not, the low cost meant that they could be discarded without any "financial pain". If there was a need for performance, the first rule stated in a previous post applied.

So you basically won't buy any electronic device ever again, unless it was made before, say, 1980es... ??
;D In the end modern equipment isn't made from unicorn pixy dust but from parts you can buy (new or from discarded equipment). Even without a schematic any EE with some talent where it comes to repairs can fix a piece of equipment. There are people who are specialised in doing repairs on undocumented equipment commercially. If I'm not mistaken forum member Jwalling is such a person.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #101 on: August 08, 2021, 04:40:28 pm »
;D In the end modern equipment isn't made from unicorn pixy dust but from parts you can buy (new or from discarded equipment). Even without a schematic any EE with some talent where it comes to repairs can fix a piece of equipment. There are people who are specialised in doing repairs on undocumented equipment commercially. If I'm not mistaken forum member Jwalling is such a person.
If you cannot obtain the firmware needed for repair, you are screwed regardless of you skill.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #102 on: August 08, 2021, 05:16:50 pm »
Most equipment repairs are easy, even on new type of equipment and even on modern Keysight instruments.
What usually fails are power supplies and power rails.
If one has to look deeper, it usually leads to a good repair after hours of searching but if special firmware or unobtanium chips are required, a schematic would also not help.

What worries me with Keysight is also the approach of limited licensing.
That should not be the case after spending lots of money for an instrument.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #103 on: August 08, 2021, 05:52:39 pm »
In the end modern equipment isn't made from unicorn pixy dust but from parts you can buy (new or from discarded equipment). Even without a schematic any EE with some talent where it comes to repairs can fix a piece of equipment. There are people who are specialised in doing repairs on undocumented equipment commercially. If I'm not mistaken forum member Jwalling is such a person.

I repair both older, 'documented' stuff and newer stuff, although I do it for pocket change and don't want to do it for regular commercial customers--the type that need it yesterday.  Some things are unicorn pixie dust--and that applies to old as well as new--and I'm not sure I could say that one variety was easier than another to repair.  When we are talking about repairing test equipment, it pays to remember that often the older stuff worth repairing was very expensive when new.  Just because its market value has declined doesn't necessarily mean the difficulty and expense of repairing it has declined as well.  Experience and spare parts supply management are pretty important, probably just as important as schematic-divining and reverse engineering skills.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #104 on: August 08, 2021, 06:38:17 pm »
;D In the end modern equipment isn't made from unicorn pixy dust but from parts you can buy (new or from discarded equipment). Even without a schematic any EE with some talent where it comes to repairs can fix a piece of equipment. There are people who are specialised in doing repairs on undocumented equipment commercially. If I'm not mistaken forum member Jwalling is such a person.
If you cannot obtain the firmware needed for repair, you are screwed regardless of you skill.
Not for someone who specialises in such repairs; these people have collections of firmware at their disposal which they gathered from previous repairs en FUBAR equipment procured from various sources.

And I also second what HighVoltage wrote: most of the repairs are power supply related.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #105 on: August 08, 2021, 07:00:09 pm »
Not for someone who specialises in such repairs; these people have collections of firmware at their disposal which they gathered from previous repairs en FUBAR equipment procured from various sources.
As if. Sure they have some firmware dumps. But not even close to what is needed and not even remotely everything can be dumped from equipment. Even if you have another piece of equipment, good luck reading some read protected MCU.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #106 on: August 08, 2021, 07:32:30 pm »
Not for someone who specialises in such repairs....And I also second what HighVoltage wrote: most of the repairs are power supply related.

Specialization helps, since you can choose to specialize in things for which you have the firmware, parts, knowledge, etc.  But in the wider world, many things end up being BER or just plain not repairable at any price because of these issues.  And while I'll happily repair PSUs as needed, there's a lot of stuff that I see that goes way beyond that.  Of course if you only count the repairs and not the broken units that didn't get fixed, perhaps the PSU percentage goes up, especially for the less determined.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #107 on: August 08, 2021, 07:41:27 pm »
Not for someone who specialises in such repairs; these people have collections of firmware at their disposal which they gathered from previous repairs en FUBAR equipment procured from various sources.
As if. Sure they have some firmware dumps. But not even close to what is needed and not even remotely everything can be dumped from equipment. Even if you have another piece of equipment, good luck reading some read protected MCU.
That is grasping at straws. The reality is that you don't need that data because MCUs don't fail (or better put: MCUs have such an insignificant failure rate that it is easy enough to procure a replacement board). Hard drives & SSDs OTOH do fail regulary but are easy to clone.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #108 on: August 08, 2021, 07:49:05 pm »
Not for someone who specialises in such repairs; these people have collections of firmware at their disposal which they gathered from previous repairs en FUBAR equipment procured from various sources.
As if. Sure they have some firmware dumps. But not even close to what is needed and not even remotely everything can be dumped from equipment. Even if you have another piece of equipment, good luck reading some read protected MCU.
That is grasping at straws. The reality is that you don't need that data because MCUs don't fail (or better put: MCUs have such an insignificant failure rate that it is easy enough to procure a replacement board). Hard drives & SSDs OTOH do fail regulary but are easy to clone.
:palm: |O Do you ever repair any equipment? What you just wrote is nonsense, MCU and other components which contain firmware fail often enough to be a big problem for independent repairs. Or firmware/config data just gets corrupted without any component failure.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 07:50:44 pm by wraper »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #109 on: August 08, 2021, 08:03:15 pm »
If you have read what I have been posting over the years then you'd know I have a whole bunch of repairs under my belt. The majority of those without access to schematics.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online wraper

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #110 on: August 09, 2021, 06:21:22 am »
If you have read what I have been posting over the years then you'd know I have a whole bunch of repairs under my belt. The majority of those without access to schematics.
Then you had an extreme luck if almost all of your repairs came down to fixing PSU.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #111 on: August 09, 2021, 08:44:16 am »
Oi Kids, stop fighting  :box:  this ain't "I am a better repairer than you" thread.

I doubt Keysight UK gives much of a rats ass about losing members of the public from their customer base, it is just a small amount of the market and in many cases, they are not worth it compared to a firm sending in 20k of calibration a year. They may have their reasons and we aren't aware of them. It may be because they are restructuring or they have lost a few engineers and don't want to compromise the customer care to the big customers. I very much doubt they will turn up here to speak about the issues.

One way to get around this may be to ask your local cal lab how much they would charge to sub out your meter to Keysight. I suspect a small lab would charge you some extra fees but happily do it for you[1]. Another is to take a bit of time on the UKAS website and find a lab[2] with a decent budget and go with them for calibration. I just spend a few hours last night looking at a better lab for my work kit as the current lab isn't good with the customer service.


[1] Last week we have several off the street customers who wanted their electrical test gear done, its not mega money but we take the attitude it all adds up.
[2] Yes its not Keysight, but here in the UK we have UKAS and they are pretty good at checking labs to make sure they are up to the task. You can ask the lab for an example cert and compare it to the holy grail.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
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So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #112 on: August 09, 2021, 09:19:47 am »
As mentioned before you have to look after all customers not just the high rollers. The little ones might be big ones down the line. The software industry learned that one after shooting it’s own toes off through the 90s.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #113 on: August 09, 2021, 09:35:47 am »
Oh, I agree. But they also have to look after the big customers who spend 100k a year, they will just take the work elsewhere and the firm loses out on significant money it is short-sighted but they are possibly looking after the books for the moment. I have seen labs getting into a right mess because one or two of the elders leave and they take with them 40 years of experience and this causes a bit of a void, it is not easy to find cal engineers. You have the likes of Tr*sc*l buying up labs and making a big dent in the market. I suspect they are just doing some transition stuff and the sales droids are trying to avoid the one item a year customers as they are pressured to go after the bigger customers. It may ease out in 6months time. But if it doesn't just go elsewhere there is a lot of other labs out there doing a very good job.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
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So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #114 on: August 09, 2021, 11:22:04 am »
As mentioned before you have to look after all customers not just the high rollers. The little ones might be big ones down the line. The software industry learned that one after shooting it’s own toes off through the 90s.

As I wrote before, current management doesn't think so. Just watch videos I linked if you want details.
But basically it is same old "we are culling all parts of business that is not high profit margin" and going for latest fads of software as a service (rent vs buy), putting that software service in a cloud etc etc..
They literally state their business  is NOT sale of T&M equipment but adjacent services and software. They only sell you scope as a platform to sell you software and options on it. Hardware is only sales enabler and not a primary income source. And they prioritize all development and product lines to support only markets that are high stakes and deep pockets because they are prepared to pay more. All simple T&M equipment (ones we discuss here) will be just there to complement the offering.
They don't care for places where one disgruntled man can make choice not to buy Keysight.. Their primary business is signing contracts with the likes of US Air Force for equipping them with  T&M solutions  for all their needs..
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
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Offline Resonant

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #115 on: August 09, 2021, 12:12:01 pm »
As mentioned before you have to look after all customers not just the high rollers. The little ones might be big ones down the line. The software industry learned that one after shooting it’s own toes off through the 90s.

 Keysight.. Their primary business is signing contracts with the likes of US Air Force for equipping them with  T&M solutions  for all their needs..

It looks like the high rollers are also getting fed up.
In the US presidential decree of 9th July

Section  (s)  The Secretary of Defense shall:….

(iii) not later than 180 days after the date of this order, submit a report to the Chair of the White House Competition Council, on a plan for avoiding contract terms in procurement agreements that make it challenging or impossible for the Department of Defense or service members to repair their own equipment, particularly in the field.'

But back to the original issue.. the support of independent engineers and enthusiasts by Keysight, it is in my view short sighted, I use a lot more of Keysight and Agilent than any other brand of test equipment but if it not going to be supported or make me jump through hoops, even if it is only for spare parts and information, I will have to rethink my purchase decisions. In the past Keysight have been happy to do videos with Dave on their services and how they changed after Agilent but now seem to be drifting back to the bad old ways and their lack of response to this thread is poor.

If this behaviour is the new norm then the catalogues and websites of suppliers like Keysight should carry a health warning.
Along the lines of:-
If you are not a major corporate company purchasing equipment and services over $xxx per annum then you purchase this equipment entirely at your own risk and we will not provide support or service under any circumstances.

Perhaps we should have sticky thread where clear warnings can be placed of companies which will not provide good support and information and those that do, to inform forum member's purchase decisions.

Resonant

 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #116 on: August 09, 2021, 02:37:03 pm »
As mentioned before you have to look after all customers not just the high rollers. The little ones might be big ones down the line. The software industry learned that one after shooting it’s own toes off through the 90s.

As I wrote before, current management doesn't think so. Just watch videos I linked if you want details.
But basically it is same old "we are culling all parts of business that is not high profit margin" and going for latest fads of software as a service (rent vs buy), putting that software service in a cloud etc etc..
They literally state their business  is NOT sale of T&M equipment but adjacent services and software. They only sell you scope as a platform to sell you software and options on it. Hardware is only sales enabler and not a primary income source. And they prioritize all development and product lines to support only markets that are high stakes and deep pockets because they are prepared to pay more. All simple T&M equipment (ones we discuss here) will be just there to complement the offering.
They don't care for places where one disgruntled man can make choice not to buy Keysight.. Their primary business is signing contracts with the likes of US Air Force for equipping them with  T&M solutions  for all their needs..

I worked in defence T&M. They're actually fairly demanding on the price front. There are budgets that need to be met and a tendering process. The only thing they win at is volume which pays the sales commission. That's where the problem is; commission focus.
 
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Offline dietert1

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #117 on: August 09, 2021, 03:04:15 pm »
Somewhere in the basement we still have three Tektronix 7912A digitizers (used to be working 15 years ago).
"This October 10, 1975 TekWeek describes a half a million dollar waveform system built using 26 7912D digitizers.  This system was built for the Air Force Weapons Lab and was deployed on the TRESTLE (Wikipedia page) test site for evaluation of EMP susceptibility..."
Anybody who ever got "preowned" test equipment from the US should be aware we are harvesting the extraordinary US military budgets of the past, whatever the labels are on the equipment. No guarantee things will stay like that. Maybe future budgets will be needed for something else, who knows.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #118 on: August 21, 2021, 05:02:13 pm »
To add to this, our lab contacted Keysight UK as a customer of ours wants to get an RF Dummy load calibrated. They wouldn't deal with us because the effort of setting up an account would be more than the calibration is worth to them.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
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So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 
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Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #119 on: August 23, 2021, 12:37:05 am »
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #120 on: August 23, 2021, 06:53:37 am »
A little gem from today's mail box:

https://support.keysight.com/KeysightdCX/s/?language=en_US

We cannot see what it was when you have logged in to your account..
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #121 on: August 23, 2021, 07:31:50 pm »
Another screwed customer here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/a-broken-34470a-and-keysights-terrible-customer-service/msg3642043/

I think based on the complete lack of any word from Keysight here that they have clammed up entirely and decided the most business friendly option is let dissent grow among their current and future customer base. Classic strategy known as “the ostrich”.

Perhaps someone should start posting this thread on their YouTube video comments.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 07:43:07 pm by bd139 »
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #122 on: August 23, 2021, 07:47:17 pm »
Perhaps this is why the auction prices of old HP/Agilent equipment is going up faster than I would expect.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #123 on: August 23, 2021, 07:56:01 pm »
Everyone stock piling it because the current stuff is clearly garbage with garbage support.

I only buy their stuff with a service manual which barely tips into Agilent branded universe. If I can’t fix it I don’t want it.

Honestly the sales and support is better on products from China which are 1/3 the initial outlay.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 07:58:03 pm by bd139 »
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #124 on: August 23, 2021, 08:12:36 pm »
HPAK's 6+ digit DMSs have a reputation for using selected voltage references, and they appear to be relatively stable.

ISTR reports that ?Silglent? equivalents are less stable. More subtle than a display failure, but invisibly problematic.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 


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