Author Topic: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services  (Read 30344 times)

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Online bdunham7

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2021, 03:33:36 am »
If the vendor asks "Is this for private or business use?" as the means of ascertaining whether consumer or B2B sales terms apply under the law you appear to be arguing that they shouldn't be allowed to rely on the reply.

No, I'm saying I don't know if they can rely on that reply and I would not automatically assume that they can.  I was using the term 'consumer protection' in the broadest sense when I was speculating, but we have no idea what the basis is for the sales restrictions by Keysight.  I sort of doubt it has anything to do with expanded warranty rights or the like (although the new right-to-repair laws might be worth researching), it seems more like the sort of thing that would be the result of liability concerns where the stakes are much higher.  I hope they do explain, because AFAIK other vendors have not taken this position.  And withdrawing support from already-sold products seems particularly difficult to justify--I can't imagine them deliberately damaging their own reputation without at least thinking that they have a compelling reason.

A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline knapik

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2021, 04:05:07 am »
Now people need a "Right to calibrate"  :box:

I work in a calibration lab for the supplier of a lot of test equipment manufacturers and you'd be surprised just how unwilling they are to provide service manuals, calibration manuals and god forbid schematics.
 

Offline tocsa120ls

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2021, 04:42:17 am »
What an odd endorsement for Tektronix.
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Offline glosair

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2021, 07:34:00 am »
Had this kind of a problem with an alarm system.

"Can I order some extra parts for my alarm system please?" "What's you BSIA number" "I don't have one, it's my alarm" "Sorry we only supply to professionals"

I did a charge back (after 2.5 years) against the company that supplied me and got my money back!
 

Offline porker1972

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2021, 10:09:23 am »
This thing about sales to an individual is down to two legal problems the manufacturer can get themselves into: Public Liability Insurance and Export Licencing. Breach of these is ruinous to a company with unlimited fines and jail for executives of the companies that breach these rules. We all know there are different safety and EMC standard for industrial and consumer products, but also requirements for user manuals and other materials. The product liability insurance is based on the class of product being sold.

American companies have to certify sales so they don't go to embargoed countries or people on a restricted party list, or used in certain applications (e.g. nuclear, defence). As such, they require resellers to check sales are to legitimate businesses in that country, and verify them. (In fact the UK did this too: I was at a distributor in the 90s when I took an order for some components from an individual with an Ulster accent who wanted to collect. Shortly afterwards I got a call from a UK security agency who asked us to delay the goods so they could turn up to follow the buyer).

Distributors (mostly) also only sell to businesses - it is in part a contractual thing with their suppliers, and also as they don't want to be liable for consumer returns rights and warranty obligations. If you buy from them as an individual, you are in breach of their terms of sale!

 

Offline OldtestgearTopic starter

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2021, 10:13:00 am »
Firstly, many thanks to everyone that has commented on my post. I will try to answer as many of the questions as I can. I do not want to get into a debate about the legalities of this.

Quote
FirstlyWas that actually mentioned in Keysight's Email? The OP mentions it, but was that actually stated by KS, or just an assumption?
Also, other calibration houses are available, you don't need to use Keysight to calibrate KS gear.
 

Yes, I was recommended by Keysight to be either VAT registered and /or  an incorporated business. Not in an email but in telephone conversations about the problem of being  an acceptable customer. Is this essential? No idea but it was recommended.
Other calibration housess ar available. True but how many can actually calibrate (& adjust if necessary) a 7.5 digit DMM?  I spent a while looking for an acceptable alternative based upon their declared capability. All ISO17025 test house are certified in the UK by UKAS  & full details are published on their website.  After a morning of hunting around to check the labs I was aware of & those recommended to me, the result was disappointing. The only lab I found with the declared competency was Fluke in Norwich. They would willingly calibrate it but the cost was eye wateringly high (to me anyway).

Test houses /cal. labs. work for their market sector. This is how they survive & having a modest capability is absolutey great if it fulfils the customers requirements. I am sure that there are very few csutomers that want a 7.5 diggit DMM certified by a third party  company rather than the OEM. Posiibly a wrong assumption on my part.

Quote
On HPAK groups.io, Dr David Kirby made the interesting suggestion "So in summary, I would say if one argues with Keysight, they will probably back down. Otherwise say you are a consultant and use it professionally! You don't need to be either VAT registered or have a limited company to use something professionally."

I argued & they did not back down despite an mail describing my 40 year experience in the industry.

Quote
speculation:
Imagine the ownership cost of a NIST traceable josephson array. Now imagine some hobbyist getting a perfect calibration, let's say the black edition HP 3458A and that person starts distributing precision calibration all over the world for the price of postage. In another thread i read the statement: "When i tried to get an official calibration i recognized how my private equipment was superior to the central metrology lab of my state."
That can't work. Maybe precision calibration is a value that needs supervision, similar to IP.

This is the Metrology section of the EEVBLOG. I would bet serious money that many of the  VOLT NUTS here do have a better calibration facility than many (most?) local calibration labs.  A cal lab needs to actually make money to survive & cannot waste it on facilities & equipment that does not add value to their bottom line.  Besides Keysight does calibrate their equipment for other labs. It is the natural flow down of capability.  Any hobbyist buying a black edition 3458A , & has the controlled environment to use it fully,  is either very rich or a committed VOLT NUT. My wife would just describe them as "mad". She may have a point.


Quote
My understanding is that it's "a legitimate interpretation of a boneheaded 'consumer protection' law." I believe there are some restrictions around "industrial equipment" [probably not the correct legal term] being sold to non-industrial parties (aka individuals). I do not know the details but @oldtestgear I'm looking into it with Peter.

Thanks Daniel for offering to look into this. I would stress that everyone I have dealt with at KS (UK) & KS Germany has been very pleasant & seem to have tried very hard to get this problem solved. I am deifinitely angry about the sudden block on getting a calibration without hassle but not at the messengers.

Quote
What an odd endorsement for Tektronix.

 Tektronix Uk suggested using Keithley to calibrate it ( they also recommended Fluke of course) plus a couple of other companies. Keithley are in Germany which now makes it too difficult to consider trying.

Thanks again to everyone who has posted here.

Phil
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 10:54:59 am by Oldtestgear »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2021, 10:17:28 am »
Remember the time when Bill Hewlett himself gave a 12yo Steve Jobs the parts needed to build his oscillator?
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-we-can-learn-from-the-gutsy-way-steve-jobs-landed-a-job-at-hp-2015-7?r=US&IR=T

Those were the days...

Personally I had amazingly positive experience with Keysight and really thought that the HP spirit had survived. But I also got to know the opposite. Times have changed.

I have my own business in Germany and luckily I still can buy replacement parts from Keysight, as long as they are available.

Interesting thread to follow. Looking forward to see, how this one ends.
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2021, 10:24:12 am »
This thing about sales to an individual is down to two legal problems the manufacturer can get themselves into: Public Liability Insurance and Export Licencing.

I ran into the export licencing issue 30 years ago when I was an HP employee. I needed to import a munition made by HP to be used inside an HP building. The paperwork wasn't too much trouble.

Now, why was that piece of test equipment classed as a munition? I don't know, but will speculate that Ulster accents were involved :)
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2021, 11:43:45 am »
After a morning of hunting around to check the labs I was aware of & those recommended to me, the result was disappointing. The only lab I found with the declared competency was Fluke in Norwich. They would willingly calibrate it but the cost was eye wateringly high (to me anyway).

Try Calmet in Teddington (https://www.calmet.co.uk). Their UKAS accredited capabilities take them well into 7 1/1 digit territory (accredited 10V to 0.3ppm versus 34470  8+2ppm@24 hours) and they are a proper cal lab, not monkeys doing token calibrations for electrician's "testers" (sic). Not surprising really when a walk will take them to NPL where the national traceability standards are kept. No idea what their pricing is like.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2021, 04:41:51 pm »
Caution: since I know little about the topic, this speculation is worth what you paid for it.

As I understand it, in the UK it is entirely possible to trade as a business without a VAT number and without Companies House allocating you a number.

In that case, would Keysight be satisfied with a purchase order from "Mousetrap Consultants"?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2021, 05:25:37 pm »
As I understand it, in the UK it is entirely possible to trade as a business without a VAT number and without Companies House allocating you a number.
I have my own limited company that is VAT registered, and in the past I've also run a business as an unregistered sole trader so I know the ropes.

In the UK, you have to register for VAT if your turnover is, or is reasonably likely to be more than £85,000 in any year (full set of thresholds here: https://www.gov.uk/vat-registration-thresholds). Below that threshold you do not have to register for VAT, but you may register if you so choose. Once you have registered you are required to charge VAT, supply quarterly VAT returns, keep suitable formal records and obviously pay over VAT to the government that you have collected over and above the VAT that you have paid out to suppliers, so the advantage of registering and claiming input tax is offset by the records keeping and reporting requirements. Thus many people who may register but are not required to do so choose not to register. Most people will acquire the addition expense of paying a professional accountant if they opt to or are required to register for VAT.

Many, many, sole traders and partnerships run a business in the UK without forming a corporation, without registering for VAT and without being required to hold a general 'business license' as is common in the more bureaucratic parts of the world. It's very common for tradesmen like electricians and plumbers to operate a business on this basis.

There used to be an intermediate ground between being a sole trader/partnership  and running a registered company of having a Registered Business Name, but that was abolished some years ago in 1982. You only had to have a registered name if you wanted to use a trading name other than your own, other than that it was entirely optional.  I used to have a Registered Business Name back in the 70s because it allowed you to open a bank account in that name and avoid having to refer to yourself as "Jerry Mouse trading as Mousetrap Consultants" on your letterheads, invoices etc.

One requirement that is placed on electricians working as sole traders by the IET wiring regulations/BS 7671 - having test equipment that is traceably calibrated. Bit of a gotcha for them if they opt to buy Keysight test gear but Keysight will subsequently refuse to recognise them as legitimate businesses because they aren't VAT registered or haven't formed a limited liability company.

Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline rf-messkopf

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2021, 06:40:19 pm »
This warning applies to ALL customers of Keysight that are NOT either an Incorporated Business or VAT Registered.

This warning must be extended to Rohde & Schwarz as well.

Recently they terminated without any notice all accounts on their GLORIS service platform that they believe belong to private individuals. See the attached screenshot after an attempt to log in; I get "Ihr Konto ist deaktiviert." ("Your account was deactivated.") From what I hear they also no longer respond to emails from individuals.

This means that I no longer have the possibility to issue service requests or order spare parts. Even worse, I no longer have access to the download section of GLORIS. That means no user and service manuals, no firmware, no drivers, etc., unless they are linked on their public web page. This is not only a problem when it comes to older equipment, but also for newer and current equipment not all documents are publicly accessible (e.g., option manuals and service manuals).

The fact that I am no longer able to order any spares as I am unfortunate enough to count as an unimportant private individual in the eyes of R&S, my testgear effectively becomes a collection of time bombs for which I paid several 10,000 Euros.

I'm struck by the double stupidity of this. Surely everybody knows that the best way to build a future for a professional brand is to get it into the hands of students. One of the ways to make sure that students won't use your gear is to make sure that there's no support available if you're anything other than a employee of a tidily documented corporation with a purchase order burning a hole in your pocket.

I couldn't agree more. With this move the Chinese manufacturers look more and more attractive when it comes to low end and midrange gear. Add to that things like the rather mediocre newer power supplies by R&S that barely meet their specifications, and several UI blunders.

If someone from R&S is reading here, there is a saying in German: "Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall" ("arrogance goes before a fall").
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2021, 06:46:52 pm »
That's useful information about R&S.

I haven't got any of their equipment, and now I never will.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2021, 07:10:34 pm »
This warning must be extended to Rohde & Schwarz as well.

Recently they terminated without any notice all accounts on their GLORIS service platform that they believe belong to private individuals.

If someone from R&S is reading here, there is a saying in German: "Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall" ("arrogance goes before a fall").

I thought it was just me or that they didn't like the fact that I inquired about a spare part (just a rear foot....) for a 9-year old CMU-200.  Their reply, by email:
   
Dear Brian *******,
There is an updated status available on your ticket 262449.
The status has changed from Waiting for Customer to Resolved.
What does this mean?
We have a proposed solution for your ticket:
no answer - no Validation - set obsolete


And when I went to log into Gloris to see the actual support ticket, I found that my account was similarly deactivated with no explanation--so I'm left with just 6 words of terse contempt.  IOW--F-U dude, you aren't our type.  For me, no big deal as the CMU-200 was a cheap spectrum analyzer/generator project for me, so I can cross them off my Christmas card list and forget about it.  If I had a more modern, support-expected instrument that I'd paid real money for, I'd go up in flames.

I've actually seen similar behavior before in a companies where I had some knowledge of what was going on, and in those cases they were aggressively "leaning" their operations so as to make the company look better for someone to acquire them.  The acquisitions happened, but the fate of the actual company operations, product line, etc was not good--they were essentially dissolved and the acquirer just took the bits they wanted.  So good luck to all of you at R&S.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online Bud

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2021, 07:28:12 pm »
I am sorry to see this happening, and believe me i am with you, as i am in the same boat in terms of using aftermarket equipment, but this is really just seems to getting back to how it was before companies started onboarding individuals. There was no access to parts back then , when was it, before mid-2000 or something ( could had been earlier than that). In fact i was stunned when big boys like Agilent started working with individuals, it was like - "really? I can't beleive i can order stuff now!"

So what is happening now may represent a shift in paradigm back to the original model, after some years of trying to get engage private individuals and non- incorporated small businesses. Perhaps that did not improve the bottom line to the brands.
As to me, i am coming fro the old school when i did not expect to be dependent on Big Boys support, so frankly i give no sh!t to this change, i have never been depended on it.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 07:29:49 pm by Bud »
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Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2021, 07:39:26 pm »
This is very odd behaviour but not unheard of. I once had to repair a crimp tool for a customer, I ordered the parts (a spring) from Tyco and did the repair. A few months later I needed another, they wouldn't sell me a spring, I had to send it to their UK repair centre for £200 for a £10 spring. I work for a calibration lab and that has always annoyed me when we have to send to a repair centre.

I would love to know the reasoning behind the shift away from private individuals as customers. I wonder if there is some daft law change (DPA?) that means that they can't hold data for the public on a business system for the risk of getting done big time.

I currently send my Agilent to a firm down on the cost but their turnaround time is annoying so I am looking elsewhere, I might go for CMR as they have always been good to me. I may have to dig into the Unc as that is what heavily dictates my own Unc Budget. My plan was to go to Keysight but if they are being dicks I would prefer not to send them money.
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2021, 07:57:51 pm »
So what is happening now may represent a shift in paradigm back to the original model, after some years of trying to get engage private individuals and non- incorporated small businesses.

I think a lot of other things changed between then and now.  I don't recall ever not being able to get something from various big companies, but for many of them you had to do it through a dealer.  Service manuals and parts lists were published, but weren't available on the internet since it basically didn't exist yet.  I think the direct support model emerged because of the shift from dealers that offered support (remember the term Value Added Reseller from when HP was still one company?) to volume discount distributors.  There may have been very highly specialized equipment manufacturers that didn't want to deal with some hobbyist that happened to get hold of a random bit of their product, but I don't recall any examples.

Now you may find companies that simply have no real support to offer to anyone, or ones that have been acquired, reorganized or simply atrophied and don't have anything for their former--or even current--product lines.  But telling actual current, paying customers to go away seems outrageous, especially for a company that promotes its used and refurbished products on eBay
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 08:01:13 pm by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2021, 08:01:40 pm »
Does Keysight do this to individuals in the US?
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2021, 08:51:54 pm »
A speculation:
Imagine the ownership cost of a NIST traceable josephson array. Now imagine some hobbyist getting a perfect calibration, let's say the black edition HP 3458A and that person starts distributing precision calibration all over the world for the price of postage. In another thread i read the statement: "When i tried to get an official calibration i recognized how my private equipment was superior to the central metrology lab of my state."
That can't work. Maybe precision calibration is a value that needs supervision, similar to IP.

Regards, Dieter

Said hobbyist would not be accredited as being part of a traceable calibration chain. The service might technically be perfect but it would not matter to anyone who actually needs to have, and provide, a paper trail as proof.
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Offline dietert1

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2021, 09:37:10 pm »
Yes, and Keysight is trying to make that criterion of traceability (which is about procedures) into paperwork, as it always used to be. You are paying for papers and don't know what they give you anyway. Some days ago i saw the calibration certificate of a new Keysight 3458A and as far as i remember there was absolutely no technical info in it - i mean no measurement results, no info about actual procedures performed.

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Online bdunham7

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2021, 09:59:49 pm »
Does Keysight do this to individuals in the US?

From the terms and conditions posted on their eBay store:

For EU customers: Keysight products are designed
manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial
use. They are not designed or tested for use by Consumers.
 While we thank you for your interest in our products,
we are unable to supply them to you.


It seems pretty clear that they have an EU-specific concern.  Appears to not affect the USA, although it also appears that they haven't been informed about Brexit yet...
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 10:02:07 pm by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2021, 10:02:22 pm »
Does Keysight do this to individuals in the US?

From the terms and conditions posted on their eBay store:

For EU customers: Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for use by Consumers. While we thank you for your interest in our products, we are unable to supply them to you.

Appears to not affect the USA, although it also appears that they haven't been informed about Brexit yet...

Does Ebay allow terms like that ?
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Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2021, 11:00:48 pm »
Interesting thread.

I think people (and at Keysight) need to read up on the Consumer Rights Act 2015. When the goods are transferred to a consumer by definition the legislation is enforceable. There is no secondary contract or terms here and it is binding. You can't assign a purpose past the function of the device. You can however pull all your products off Farnell, RS, CPC, ebay and choose not to sell them to consumers and only direct for business. And of course we know what a shit show that'd be considering Keysight UK couldn't even get their Spanish payment handling division to call me to take payment for some knobs a year or so ago.

For premium prices, we expect premium service regardless of who we are for customers. The IT industry learned a long time ago that you need to treat private customers well because they're the professionals doing things in their spare time. When someone turns up and says "hey we need a tool to solve problem X" the last thing you want to be told from your engineers is "Keysight are dicks" which is what the presentation is here.  There's a huge pile of corporate corpses due to that one. I'm doing my best to murder a company now for being difficult with me. In fact I take pride in such things.

Chinese vendors looking good here. Most of the products are cheaper than a Keysight calibration so you can just throw them away and buy another one  :-DD

Edit: also Keysight might want to remove all those trendy YouTube videos targeting "makers" who are not professional engineers if their policy is to not sell to them.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 11:05:48 pm by bd139 »
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2021, 11:07:13 pm »
Edit: also Keysight might want to remove all those trendy YouTube videos targeting "makers" who are not professional engineers if their policy is to not sell to them.

Add the appropriate snark to each of those videos.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2021, 11:11:41 pm »
There are many Keysight adverts at the top of this forum's pages.

If they won't sell to private people on this forum, why are the adverts there, and are they appropriate?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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