Keysight (lack of) calibration & other services

[bd139]

There are of course other vendors such as Time, Keithley, Transmille if a moderately drifty reference isn't your thing

[2N3055]

HPAK's 6+ digit DMSs have a reputation for using selected voltage references, and they appear to be relatively stable.

ISTR reports that ?Silglent? equivalents are less stable. More subtle than a display failure, but invisibly problematic.

34465 and 34470 probably do use aged refs. 34461 and 34460 don't. They do drift in a first year too.
34465 and 34470 do too but not much.
After a year they all get very stable though. So you would really want to buy new one, and have it adjusted after a year. Then it would be really good.
Truth is, my Rigol DM3068 also did drift a bit in first year. Now it's 3 something years old and the last year or two didn't move much, few ppms.. It is easily on par with 34465.
It is not only reference, resistors need to recover from thermal shock and go through initial aging. Board has to settle too.

Problem is that you would really want to keep sending it for yearly checks anyways. Especially if you have only one. If you have 3 meters of comparable accuracy, you cross check as sanity check and for non critical work you're good. But if you have only one, you never know... And there is the point where you need service..

[BU508A]

Looks like Daniel is active here in the forum but for some reason he doesn't want to respond here or in the other thread with the broken 34470A.

Imo not the best PR Keysight is performing here. 

[2N3055]

Looks like Daniel is active here in the forum but for some reason he doesn't want to respond here or in the other thread with the broken 34470A.

Imo not the best PR Keysight is performing here. 

I would not lay it so hard on Daniel. If what we see is change by corporate decisions (as it seems to be) his hands will be tied, and he might even be ordered not to comment.
You can see that people are being served exact phrases and language carefully crafted by lawyers.
In my experience, Daniel helped to many people above and beyond on many occasions, even volunteering to help, without help being directly solicited.

So maybe we should be fair to him and not make this situation uncomfortable, where he is put in a position that he is "demanded" to do something he cannot do.
So maybe a bit of camaraderie for our colleague,  Daniel "the person".. 
I'm sure many of use have been in similar situations..

Regards to all.

[BU508A]

You should read a little more carefully what I wrote and how.
Daniel is very helpful and supports people where he can.
I am well aware that Keysight may have muzzled him,
which is why I blame Keysight for the poor PR and not Daniel.

[bd139]

Yes this is never the fault of an individual.

(Unless there’s a lawyer behind it all!)

[2N3055]

You should read a little more carefully what I wrote and how.
Daniel is very helpful and supports people where he can.
I am well aware that Keysight may have muzzled him,
which is why I blame Keysight for the poor PR and not Daniel.

No, no, it WASN't a critique to you. I apologize if it came that way.
Your post merely reminded me that I wanted to say that. Before there is flurry of "Daniel this, Daniel that..."

Best,

[Cerebus]

My suspicion is that Daniel is quietly fuming because some little jobsworth* in Keysight Germany is undoing all the good work he's been doing over the years.

Nobody ought to read anything here as criticism of Daniel - in a public forum he can't very well say that he thinks his own company is making a pig's ear of this. At least he has the consolation that he doesn't work for Apple - I wouldn't want to be one of their corporate apologists at the moment!

* An English expression for the kind of inflexible individual who when asked to do something reasonable uses company policy as the excuse not to, with the phase "It's more than my job's worth". Closely allied to, and frequently used with, the English idiom for someone who has been given a little authority and has allowed it to go to their head and become dictatorial - a "little Hitler". Normally I'd regard that a tad insensitive to use about or in the presence of Germans but in this case ...

[EEVblog]

I don't think there is anything anyone can do here, the lawyers have deemed it so for whatever reason and that's that, and Keysight management aren't going to go against the lawyers.

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 
 

[tggzzz]

I don't think there is anything anyone can do here, the lawyers have deemed it so for whatever reason and that's that, and Keysight management aren't going to go against the lawyers.

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

Well, yes, but...

Who in "KeysightSuxCo" would be willing to take responsibility (whatever that means) for the actions of unknown third parties, and "police" the business they are doing through KeysightSuxCo?

Being able to disprove accusations of ITAR violations and money laundering spring to mind.

[nctnico]

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

IOW: a local Keysight equipment dealer!

[Cerebus]

I don't think there is anything anyone can do here, the lawyers have deemed it so for whatever reason and that's that, and Keysight management aren't going to go against the lawyers.

Rather a case of the tail wagging the dog there, if that's true.

A former colleague gave me some very good advice in regard to dealing with corporate lawyers. He said that if you go to your lawyers and ask "Is it legal for us to do this?" or "Do we have a legal problem if we do this?", it is in the habit of corporate lawyers to interpret that as "Find me a legal way to do this." with the result that you can end up with something other than you want and can go down some deeply unethical routes if you're not careful - corporate lawyers are conscienceless. The point being that most corporate lawyers are enablers, people who assist you in conducting your business as you want to, not guardians of all that is good, legal and true.

[bd139]

I think the corporate lawyer causality is the wrong way round. It's usually "you did what?" followed by "hey we found a loophole so no one is going to prison!"  followed by lines of coke, hookers and expensive champagne. Well that's how it works in the finance sector anyway 

As mentioned earlier I implore keysight to do what the corporate lawyers would have told them do, which is why I know the lawyer argument is wrong:

1. Remove all their products from resellers web sites and ebay where consumers can purchase the items.
2. Remove all marketing targeting non-commercial users (makers fad mostly).
3. Put out a formal statement regarding the support of keysight products purchased from date X
4. Put out a formal statement regarding the support of keysight products purchased before date X stating your statutory rights will not be affected.
5. Ask business customers to formally register accounts with Keysight.

None of that has happened (yet) so it's either in discussion, not in discussion or someone is going yadda yadda yadda with their finger in their ears. Some clarity would be nice but so far we had Daniel pop up and said "not his call" which it probably isn't.

I'd rather have been told "I have informed Keysight management of the concerns raised in this thread"

[EEVblog]

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

IOW: a local Keysight equipment dealer!

I thought that actually was one of the problems here? (maybe another thread) Wasn't an individual denied the purchase of a bit of gear though a legit dealer in their country?

[EEVblog]

I don't think there is anything anyone can do here, the lawyers have deemed it so for whatever reason and that's that, and Keysight management aren't going to go against the lawyers.

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

Well, yes, but...
Who in "KeysightSuxCo" would be willing to take responsibility (whatever that means) for the actions of unknown third parties, and "police" the business they are doing through KeysightSuxCo?
Being able to disprove accusations of ITAR violations and money laundering spring to mind.

Become a "used"  Keysight dealer maybe? I'm sure there are legal ways around every loophole.

[EEVblog]

I think the corporate lawyer causality is the wrong way round. It's usually "you did what?" followed by "hey we found a loophole so no one is going to prison!"  followed by lines of coke, hookers and expensive champagne. Well that's how it works in the finance sector anyway 

As mentioned earlier I implore keysight to do what the corporate lawyers would have told them do, which is why I know the lawyer argument is wrong:

1. Remove all their products from resellers web sites and ebay where consumers can purchase the items.
2. Remove all marketing targeting non-commercial users (makers fad mostly).
3. Put out a formal statement regarding the support of keysight products purchased from date X
4. Put out a formal statement regarding the support of keysight products purchased before date X stating your statutory rights will not be affected.
5. Ask business customers to formally register accounts with Keysight.

None of that has happened (yet) so it's either in discussion, not in discussion or someone is going yadda yadda yadda with their finger in their ears. Some clarity would be nice but so far we had Daniel pop up and said "not his call" which it probably isn't.
I'd rather have been told "I have informed Keysight management of the concerns raised in this thread"

Keysight will happily sell anyone a used scope on ebay through the adverising link above 

[nctnico]

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

IOW: a local Keysight equipment dealer!

I thought that actually was one of the problems here? (maybe another thread) Wasn't an individual denied the purchase of a bit of gear though a legit dealer in their country?

AFAIK some dealers (like Batronix in Germany) got ordered by Keysight to stop selling to individuals but that got reverted. But it seems Keysight has stopped offering services like sales, calibration and repairs to individuals.

[tggzzz]

I don't think there is anything anyone can do here, the lawyers have deemed it so for whatever reason and that's that, and Keysight management aren't going to go against the lawyers.

I reckon that if someone were to set up an Incorporated Business or suitably VAT Registered company, then well, there is no limit to how many "contractors" that said company can have that can use that VAT/business number or whatever to get products and services 

Well, yes, but...
Who in "KeysightSuxCo" would be willing to take responsibility (whatever that means) for the actions of unknown third parties, and "police" the business they are doing through KeysightSuxCo?
Being able to disprove accusations of ITAR violations and money laundering spring to mind.

Become a "used"  Keysight dealer maybe? I'm sure there are legal ways around every loophole.

I presume money laundering and ITAR apply no matter what the ostensible purpose of the business is.

[figgie]

Hi folks new here but not new to the world of dealer/distributor/manufacturing.

Just MAYBE, they have decided to let all the service go through the distribution channel instead of directly to them? Of course that is a massive ASSUMPTION that is the business model they are doing now.

As a real life example.

I am a dealer for some widgets (those widgets are for motorsport applications but that is not important).

When a customer buys said widgets from me. I am the support channel for said customer for that widget. If a customer decides to call the widget manufacture to go around me for support because of some issue or even misconfiguration. The manufacture will politely tell them that they need to contact the dealer that they bought said widget from and they WILL give the customer my information and hang up. Afterwards I, as the dealer, get an email stating the customers name and product that they called about along with serial number, I look through my records and if all is well, I am calling the customer to figure out what is the issue at hand if the customer has not called me about said issue yet.

This has been the way for ongoing support for many things.

Cars, no one goes to General Motors to say, I have issue so and so with my Chevy Volt. The customer goes to the local dealer preferably were they bought said Chevy Volt and gets the service for their Chevy Volt especially warranty work.

Same with Ferrari, no individual is going to call Ferrari SpA and get support regardless if you just plunked down $1,800,000 million dollars for the newest La Ferrari. Ferrari SpA will respond that you need to call the dealer that sold you that cool La Ferrari for service or warranty work, they will be even courteous enough to provide said dealer name and phone number so you can schedule an appointment but that is as far as Ferrari SpA might go.

This might be Keysight's first volley to separate support from the HQ to the sellers/distributors.

It is all a guess though!

[bdunham7]

This might be Keysight's first volley to separate support from the HQ to the sellers/distributors.

That would all be great....but who are the distributors that can provide any more support than packaging and shipping?  eBay?  Or is Keysight going to narrow their distribution channel to those distributors like Transcat that actually are capable of some level of support?  I suppose they could keep selling through mass market channels and still want their capable distributors to provide support, but I don't think that model would be well received.

[manupthehills]

Reading this and the other thread (in Metrology) on this subject concerned me a bit.
I'm a EE working in Silicon Valley and, like many, I have a more than decent personal lab that comes useful for hobby, working from home, consulting, and likely it will get even more useful in the future
Last year I had two DMMs calibrated by Keysight in Roseville: great experience with home pick-up and delivery, so, even if I could have waited some more time, I decided to have a power meter calibrated as a test to see what all this is about.

To date everything went smooth: within few days from my online request, I got a quote, they took my money, and came to pick-up the instrument as well. In few more days it should be back, hopefully.
Same good experience as usual, at least here. This new marketing approach toward "consumers", although mentioned in the latest version of their "terms of sale", seems being enforced outside the US only. For now.
There's still an open question about their service website: from my account I was able to place this calibration order but all the info about my assets are unavailable... The guy on the phone (while talking about the details of this calibration order) said that the data was migrated to a new system and they were experiencing glitches... If this doesn't resolve by itself I'll get on the phone to get a new answer.

[figgie]

This might be Keysight's first volley to separate support from the HQ to the sellers/distributors.

That would all be great....but who are the distributors that can provide any more support than packaging and shipping?  eBay?  Or is Keysight going to narrow their distribution channel to those distributors like Transcat that actually are capable of some level of support?  I suppose they could keep selling through mass market channels and still want their capable distributors to provide support, but I don't think that model would be well received.

it might not be well received but they are forcing the hands of the transcat, testequipment etc to be able to support said merchandise.

I do not know about keysight and what their official support model was but it looks l like it was a free for all and keysight themselves were in charge of support up until recently. Now keep in mind that i am talking a micro view of what is happening in HPAK UK.

It seems like HPAK US is not doing that CURRENTLY to my knowledge but It might not change based on volume sales or it might. It is a moving target until the dust settles.

Also keep in mind with the massive chip shortages happening across all industries, HPAK might be impacted (see GM shutting plants down due to said chip shortage).

[Oldtestgear]

I started the thread & it seems that I might be ending it too.

I have "given in" to Keysight's demand that I incorporate a company as the only way to get my 34470A calibrated.  It is definitely not a sensible option but it is pragmatic. I have completed the paperwork & notified Keysight. They have acknowledged my email & stated that full support is now available.  I hope to get the 34470A calibrated next week, with one of my newly acqured 3458As planned for late October assuming that both pass the dreaded long term drift test.

Not sure if I can help anyone else with parts or calibrations but am happy to try.  My new company is not intended to be profitable butcannot be run at a loss either.

If anyone is looking to buy a 3458A (with or without calibration) then please PM me to discuss. I will offer one for sale in the not too distant future.

Phil

[jc101]

I started the thread & it seems that I might be ending it too.

I have "given in" to Keysight's demand that I incorporate a company as the only way to get my 34470A calibrated.  It is definitely not a sensible option but it is pragmatic. I have completed the paperwork & notified Keysight. They have acknowledged my email & stated that full support is now available.  I hope to get the 34470A calibrated next week, with one of my newly acqured 3458As planned for late October assuming that both pass the dreaded long term drift test.

Not sure if I can help anyone else with parts or calibrations but am happy to try.  My new company is not intended to be profitable butcannot be run at a loss either.

If anyone is looking to buy a 3458A (with or without calibration) then please PM me to discuss. I will offer one for sale in the not too distant future.

Phil

Be interesting to know how long it takes, I couldn't find any details on their website.  I have a 34465A used for checking some custom built devices, so ideally I need to get an up to date calibration done. No reason to believe it's out, but to keep the paperwork people happy... It's my only meter though, so being without for a lengthy period will be a bit of a pain.

[tautech]

 
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