Author Topic: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz(or more) hardware upgrade mod  (Read 34799 times)

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Offline electrolust

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2017, 06:06:51 pm »
#17 - The 50 ohm path is much improved with the updated front end and use of the Teledyne 20 dB attenuator relays

Would this part of the mod be worth doing just on its own, for a 200MHz scope, without doing the rest of the mod?  Or at 200MHz is it not gaining you so much.
 

Offline Amazing

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2017, 06:12:08 pm »

Great job!  that really took guts.

scope. And, as is made clear by the mod, the whole backend of the scope is capable to 1 GHz (or higher  >:D)

The first version of the 3000T manual mentions a 1.5GHz model that was never sold... 
 

Offline TheSteveTopic starter

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2017, 08:07:49 pm »
I really am keen to try this but I am not sure I have the courage. Can you do it to a single channel? Or is is all or none?

This is an all or nothing mod and if you aren't sure please don't risk your scope.

SNIP
And, as is made clear by the mod, the whole backend of the scope is capable to 1 GHz (or higher  >:D)
SNIP

Is that a challenge?
I know the front end ASIC is capable of at least 1.5 GHz as it is used in the 4000x series. My dream was a 1.5 GHz upgrade but without seeing a 4000 series 1.5 GHz front end it just isn't going to happen. It was hard enough to determine the required values for 1 GHz.
There is the jumper option on the board for 1.5 GHz but as far as I am aware it will be rejected as it isn't a 4000 series board. I have no desire to get into firmware hacking.
I don't need to sleep, I'll be pondering it.


Would this part of the mod be worth doing just on its own, for a 200MHz scope, without doing the rest of the mod?  Or at 200MHz is it not gaining you so much.

There is nothing to be gained by modifying the 200 MHz front end for a better 50 ohm match. It also wouldn't work properly as the relay/attenuator controls change when you go from 100-500 to 1 GHz hardware.

Can you characterize the response curve?  My memory might be bad, but as I recall from the literature, the sub-1GHz models have gaussian response and the 1GHz (as shipped from Keysight) has maximally flat response.  Apologies if the posted traces show that fact, I'm a bit excited and haven't read through in detail!

I do believe the 1 GHz model has the flat response. If you look at the anti alias/low pass filter on the output of the front end ASIC you'll see the 1 GHz model has an added series resistor/capacitor. In simulation this prevents attenuation above 500 MHz and changes the curve around 1 GHz.
I will plot the curve when I get a chance.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 08:21:43 pm by TheSteve »
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Online KE5FX

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2017, 09:47:03 pm »
 

Offline WastelandTek

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2017, 10:27:02 pm »
wowwwww...
I'm new here, but I tend to be pretty gregarious, so if I'm out of my lane please call me out.
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2017, 10:59:34 pm »
Impressive stuff... :)

Some equipment can be upgraded simply by creating a valid licence file. A couple of years ago I reverse engineered Agilent/Keysights option licencing system so I could upgrade my E5071 VNA to add time domain analysis. It just requires a text based licence file with a key code to unlock the option.

They appear to use a similar system on a lot of test gear, I tried upgrading a DSO 80000 series scope just by creating a valid licence file for its serial number. It took me about 10 minutes to hack the 80000 scope system and I managed to write a licence that unlocked loads of options and upgraded the BW from 4GHz to 12GHz (proved/measured with a 20GHz sig gen).


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-infiniium-dso8000a-hacking-anyone-done-this/

« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 11:17:55 pm by G0HZU »
 

Offline G0HZU

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2017, 11:27:10 pm »
I'm not a scope guru and I know nothing about the 3000 series but I wonder if there is another way to do your mod without needing to change hardware?

From my limited time spent with Agilent scopes I think they sometimes have switchable front end LPF sections in them. I think Agilent prefer to limit the bandwidth in hardware if you select user settings with a low sample rate and this minimises alias issues on certain timebase settings. So maybe your scope could be upgraded in code to manage the LPF as well as doing your BW upgrade. It might not be necessary to change any components? The higher BW LPF may already be in the scope waiting to be selected? But this is just a guess.
 

Offline TheSteveTopic starter

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2017, 12:28:17 am »
Parts have to be changed, absolutely no question. There are three hardware versions. 100/200, 350/500 and 1000 MHz. The 100 can be software updated to 200 and the 350 can be updated to 500. Each has unique hardware filters that the laws of physics dictate.
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Offline bson

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2017, 02:04:47 am »
Isn't it likely that minor channel level variation and possibly zero variance is handled through calibration?  That looks like the ideal method if the response is otherwise reasonably flat.
 

Offline TheSteveTopic starter

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2017, 04:00:53 am »
Isn't it likely that minor channel level variation and possibly zero variance is handled through calibration?  That looks like the ideal method if the response is otherwise reasonably flat.

This is totally possible. But so far I have never found any information detailing any calibration info beyond the UserCal built into the scope.
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2017, 07:44:00 pm »
f C1 to 2.4 pF on channel 4 and 3.3 pF on channel 1. This gives me amplitudes within 10-15mV between all channels when looking at a 1 Vpp signal at 1 GHz. The 3 dB cutoff frequency of all channels is between 1060 and 1070 MHz. At 1 GHz the attenuation is about 1.5 dB. Seems like pretty darn acceptable performance to me.
Another forum member will be modifying his scope in the near future, so we will see how his does.


Do you think this will be the same on all scopes, or is this something that more likely will need to be tweaked on a per scope basis?

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Offline TheSteveTopic starter

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2017, 07:49:13 pm »
A rough guess suggests it will vary on all scopes. We should know in a week or two when another scope meets the soldering iron.
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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2017, 01:24:40 am »
And, as is made clear by the mod, the whole backend of the scope is capable to 1 GHz (or higher  >:D)

The gauntlet has been thrown!  OK next level mod is to take this thing to 1.2 or 1.5GHz!!

The next step is for someone to design and open-source active probe to make use of this kind of horsepower between 500Mhz and 1GHz.  Keysight's 2795A probe starts at $1K ea, which is a lot less than what they used to be, but still not inexpensive. 
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2017, 02:48:32 am »
And, as is made clear by the mod, the whole backend of the scope is capable to 1 GHz (or higher  >:D)

The gauntlet has been thrown!  OK next level mod is to take this thing to 1.2 or 1.5GHz!!

The next step is for someone to design and open-source active probe to make use of this kind of horsepower between 500Mhz and 1GHz.  Keysight's 2795A probe starts at $1K ea, which is a lot less than what they used to be, but still not inexpensive.
Keep an eye out for any of the N2795A, 1156A, and 1152A. All come up well under $1000.
 

Offline TheSteveTopic starter

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2017, 02:57:45 am »
And, as is made clear by the mod, the whole backend of the scope is capable to 1 GHz (or higher  >:D)

The gauntlet has been thrown!  OK next level mod is to take this thing to 1.2 or 1.5GHz!!

The next step is for someone to design and open-source active probe to make use of this kind of horsepower between 500Mhz and 1GHz.  Keysight's 2795A probe starts at $1K ea, which is a lot less than what they used to be, but still not inexpensive.
Keep an eye out for any of the N2795A, 1156A, and 1152A. All come up well under $1000.

Keep in mind that to use the 1152A with the 3000A/3000T series of scopes the probe needs to be modified.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-1152a-active-probe-'smartprobe'-conversion-for-dsox3000-series-scopes/
VE7FM
 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2017, 04:19:19 am »
is this hack likely to work on a DSOX3014T ? 
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Offline TheSteveTopic starter

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2017, 04:24:47 am »
is this hack likely to work on a DSOX3014T ?

Yes, the DSOX3014T has the identical hardware as the MSOX3024T I started with.
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Offline TheSteveTopic starter

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2017, 05:14:48 am »
This is why I suggest nobody tries to re-use the original relays. I used as little hot air as possible to remove them yet they just don't look so great. All I really cared about was nothing else being exposed to excessive heat so the hot air was focused directly on the relays to remove them.
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Offline Dubbie

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2017, 05:58:17 am »
Are they not through hole?
Why did you not just suck the solder from the pins?

Worried about damaging the pads?
 

Offline TheSteveTopic starter

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2017, 06:02:02 am »
Nope, not through-hole. They are tiny little SMT buggers.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 07:01:43 am by TheSteve »
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2017, 08:29:37 am »
Did you preheat the board?
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Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2017, 08:32:48 am »
K1 - Teledyne A150-20-12 - 3104T only - This is the money part. I bought mine from a trusted vendor in China and verified they were 100% legit before install.
K2 - AGQ210S4H 3024T only (I recommend carefully removing using hotair)
K3 - AGQ210S4H 3104T only
***I don't recommend planning to re-use the removed AGQ210S4H relays - buy new ones***

Just a little confused by this..       



and can you share ( pm maybe ) the trusted source for the part.
Which bits are replaced if I'm going from a 3014T?   


« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:36:30 am by mrpackethead »
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Offline adranp

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2017, 08:37:20 am »
:mrpackethead

K1 has to installed (the most expensive part from the upgrade BOM and the most hard to get)
K2 has to be removed
K3 has to be installed (new part required due to hotair removal procedure which will most probably damage the part from K2)


Steve did not preheat the board as far as I know..

 

Offline mrpackethead

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2017, 08:44:33 am »
My scope is 20,000km away, so i dont' have one to look at.  :-)

K1 has to installed (the most expensive part from the upgrade BOM and the most hard to get) -    So this part is unpopulated?

K2 has to be removed -
K3 has to be installed (new part required due to hotair removal procedure which will most probably damage the part from K2)


In the photos it seems that both K2 and K3 are left installed??

Steve did not preheat the board as far as I know..
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Online tautech

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Re: Keysight 3000T scope 1 GHz hardware upgrade mod
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2017, 08:47:44 am »
See #17 in the OP.
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