Keysight 34465A reliability

[Smith]

I have a 34465A at work, just died after maybe 40 hours. The transformer is blown (input side is open), I'm still waiting for a replacement from China. Keysight won't sell the transformer to me. This was one from only 2 we have.

I had multiple Keithleys (199, 485, 2000, 6485, 6517) and never had real issues, except for some dirty contacts, blown resistors (my bad). One 6485 at work had troubles with the EEPROM, but it had at least 10 years of almost daily duty and a 199 had lost it's EEPROM after it was written about 30 years ago. I will definitely be looking for a Keithley to replace the 34465A.

[alm]

I have a 34465A at work, just died after maybe 40 hours. The transformer is blown (input side is open), I'm still waiting for a replacement from China. Keysight won't sell the transformer to me. This was one from only 2 we have.

So it was only used for maybe 40 hours yet it's already out of warranty? Could be an open thermal fuse. But test equipment companies (Keysight, but also Keithley / Tektronix) certainly aren't as helpful with service information and spare parts as they used to be.

I had multiple Keithleys (199, 485, 2000, 6485, 6517) and never had real issues, except for some dirty contacts, blown resistors (my bad). One 6485 at work had troubles with the EEPROM, but it had at least 10 years of almost daily duty and a 199 had lost it's EEPROM after it was written about 30 years ago. I will definitely be looking for a Keithley to replace the 34465A.

And I've had numerous HP/Agilent instruments, none of which has had any transformer trouble. I do have a Keithley 6485 with an open primary in its transformer. Tektronix are ignoring my requests to buy a spare, so it's just sitting there. None of this gives any useful data about the reliability of the Keysight 34465A or the Keithley DMM 6500, however. Just anecdotes.

[HighVoltage]

Sad ... I just pull the trigger for Keysight 34465A, choosing between it and Fluke 8846A. Now it is too late to withdraw the order.
I just hope that the black case is not the only revision for the KS 34465A.

P.S. For those interested TME has now in stock Fluke 8846A at a good price for Europe. Though it is little outdated as display.

I had a 8846A and I am happy it is gone!
It is such old school instrument with a crappy display, completely outdated and too expensive!

The 34465A is a much better choice!

If one is buying a 34465A in 2022, I would think that all problems presented in this thread have been eliminated.
 

[AVGresponding]

I have Keithley DMM 6500 from more than a year. It is better than 34356A in most respects and with 400 E cheaper!
I am buiyng KS for a "second opinion"    as Siglent SDM 3065X is already out of calibration after 3 years.

Are you saying the Siglent has drifted out of its calibration limits and requires adjustment?

[bdunham7]

For bench use I'd skip the Fluke 8846A and get the DMM6500 instead. Having some graphing / logging facilities on a bench DMM can be very handy at some times.

 

This seems to be an oft-repeated discussion.  IMO any discussion of these three somewhat different meters should include their differences.  They're all 6.5 digit bench meters, but that's all they really have in common.  I don't recommend the 8846A to people in general because it isn't the best choice for many uses, but for the OP person wanting a 'second opinion' meter, it probably would, in fact, be the best by far.  The DMM6500 is simply a different class of instrument and has a lot of features--digitizing, the scanner card option, etc--that probably make it quite attractive for actual engineering use.  If I was going to buy another meter, I probably would go with it just for the scanner card function. 

The 8846A is a quick and efficient service bench meter, it goes from dormant (standby) to almost any range in 2 seconds and 3 button pushes or less.  Maybe 5 button pushes if you want dual display or something special like Hi-Z.  It also has 1000VAC, 1G-ohm and 10V diode ranges and is rated CAT I/1000V and CAT II/600V, unlike any competitors.  It also has actual and specified accuracy (if you read carefully) that significantly exceeds the other contestants.  So if those are the things that are important to you, the 8846A should not be overlooked.  I personally don't mind the display and logging can be done with Flukeview Forms (which is admittedly not great), LabView or HKJ's excellent Test Controller.  YMMV.

As for the current discussion, as an individual or very small business, I'd be very reluctant to invest in a 34465A given the recent issues with the model and the company.  It seems that unless you cycle them out before the warranty ends or you have an ongoing paid service contract with them and are a big enough fish to merit their attention, you may be left with scrap metal for your investment.  You might be better off with a decent HP 34401A and a PC for logging.  But again, YMMV--I have a high tolerance for things that are a bit odd or cumbersome to learn and use but a very low tolerance for things that are unreliable, don't last or can't be fixed.

[Smith]

So it was only used for maybe 40 hours yet it's already out of warranty? Could be an open thermal fuse. But test equipment companies (Keysight, but also Keithley / Tektronix) certainly aren't as helpful with service information and spare parts as they used to be.

It was sold about 2 or 3 years ago. I've done a lot of software for the last years, and haven't used it much.

And I've had numerous HP/Agilent instruments, none of which has had any transformer trouble. I do have a Keithley 6485 with an open primary in its transformer. Tektronix are ignoring my requests to buy a spare, so it's just sitting there. None of this gives any useful data about the reliability of the Keysight 34465A or the Keithley DMM 6500, however. Just anecdotes.

I never had any trouble getting Keithley parts. I've ordered displays, display assemblies, connectors, resistors (which I had blown), housing parts and such. Never had any transformer fail on me though. At this moment I have 7 Keithleys on my personal bench, so fingers crossed.

I'm almost sure it's the thermal fuse, but it would be quite some destructive work disassembling the whole transformer. I would if it would be my personal unit. Some transformers have the fuse accessible from the outside, this one was epoxied in the transformer. Took about 140 dollar for a new unit from China via Ebay.

[wraper]

It was sold about 2 or 3 years ago. I've done a lot of software for the last years, and haven't used it much.

AFAIK it has 3 year warranty. Warranty status checked on the Keysight website does not matter since purchase date in a proof of sale actually matters.

I have a 34465A at work, just died after maybe 40 hours. The transformer is blown (input side is open), I'm still waiting for a replacement from China. Keysight won't sell the transformer to me.

I don't think that a usual transformer is up to the task for such precision meter. It will probably inject too much leakage current into the DUT. I would take the outer insulation off and see if a thermal fuse can be reached.

[Smith]

I don't think that a usual transformer is up to the task for such precision meter. It will probably inject too much leakage current into the DUT. I would take the outer insulation off and see if a thermal fuse can be reached.

The transformer had the same number as the original, not just a compatible transformer. It was also sold as a 34465 / 34461 type transformer, it looked the same too, so I guess it should work. The transformer was epoxied stiff. It would take some serious work the get to the thermal fuse, with a reasonable probability of doing more damage. I did this type of repair to other transformers without any trouble, but not this one.

[tautech]

Siglent SDM 3065X is already out of calibration after 3 years.

Which ranges ?
Are you aware of the SDM Cal site Defpom made ?
http://www.thedefpom.com/siglent_sdm_calibration.php

[skander36]

Siglent SDM 3065X is already out of calibration after 3 years.

Which ranges ?
Are you aware of the SDM Cal site Defpom made ?
http://www.thedefpom.com/siglent_sdm_calibration.php

Yes I am aware. But this method is useless if you don't have a calibrated source like his Datron.
I know that after one year any DMM need calibration, but the ideea was that SDM3065X left me with the sensation of not being in the same league as Keythely,Fluke or KS. This is why I  headed to 34465A. But this topic make me anxious about ...

[tautech]

Siglent SDM 3065X is already out of calibration after 3 years.

Which ranges ?
Are you aware of the SDM Cal site Defpom made ?
http://www.thedefpom.com/siglent_sdm_calibration.php

Yes I am aware. But this method is useless if you don't have a calibrated source like his Datron.
I know that after one year any DMM need calibration, but the ideea was that SDM3065X left me with the sensation of not being in the same league as Keythely,Fluke or KS. This is why I  headed to 34465A. But this topic make me anxious about ...

Yes Siglent doesn't use aged references so they can drift outta spec. IIRC some owner here mapped the drift and found it almost exactly matched the LM399 datasheet drift spec.
You should contact Siglent in Germany as I believe they have a universal calibrator that can bring yours back to factory accuracy in a flash. Actually I will check on this as I know the US branch has one.

[skander36]

I will PM you to not continue to be off-topic.
Sorry, @OP.

[Fgrir]

When I bought a 34465A last summer, I got the 5 year extended warranty for an extra $82.  At that time similar 5 year coverage for a DMM6500 was quoted at $357.  I have a hard time believing Keysight is really experiencing massive failure rates on a product while selling extended coverage at such a low price.

[floobydust]

Why should customers suffer over a product defect?
It takes a lot of time getting the RMA, customs docs, shipping info, then there's down-time and the repair costs sending in the brick for repair, assuming it's not declared obsolete.

This guy's 34461A died after 6 months in storage, sounds just like the FLASH aging/corruption issue, a 2015 (at 4 yrs old) https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/keysight-34461a-179388/
At some point the affected models, years and serial numbers will have to be known. Your extended warranty, is it "to" or "additional" 5 years to the standard 3 years?

The "professional use only" shitstorm (almost 33,000 views) I wonder if it's to elude consumer protection laws which would apply here?
"They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use." https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-officially-lost-the-plot-dont-buy-if-youre-a-hobbyist/

[TaylorD93]

If not already mentioned in the forum, there has been issued a service note for the 34465A regarding loose front panel (date 02/02/2022 )

That is a weird service note.
The mounting of the front panel has not really changed in years.
If they have not made the mounting holes very large, I can not visualize how the front panel should come loose.

But then on the other hand, these 4 screws should probably have been installed since the early 34401A

Ive had a 34461A come back from Calibration at Keysight, opened the bag to find the front panel loose on one side.

could see the plastic could have just be squeezed a bit and pushed back in, but we sent it back to make sure they were aware of it. But that was back end of 2021. Not seen any since, but most of ours are still in their first year of calibration. so will see when we send them out for the next rotation.

[Fgrir]

Your extended warranty, is it "to" or "additional" 5 years to the standard 3 years?

It extends the standard 3 year warranty coverage to 5 years, so I am paying $41/yr for the extra years of coverage. In my experience with other instruments, Keysight is happy to keep renewing this at similar pricing as long as the equipment is still supported by them. I've read all the threads about Keysight reliability over the last few years since I also own a MSOX3024A that was vulnerable to flash corruption. That unit was bought in 2014 and still running fine, but every time I read about the flash corruption issues I have to turn it on to see if it was still working. Yep, still boots.

To be honest, I am using all this professionally and a $1600 meter is not a big investment for me, but I'm not sure I would have gone with another Keysight without the cheap extended coverage. I still believe that pricing wouldn't be possible if their reliability was really as dismal as it seems based on the stories of people who have had bad experiences.

[bdunham7]

I still believe that pricing wouldn't be possible if their reliability was really as dismal as it seems based on the stories of people who have had bad experiences.

Suppose the annual failure rate is 1 in 20.  I would call that bad and that would be enough to generate howls of complaints, but if everyone had a contract, Keysight would have collected $820 for each failure.  That should cover it, I would think.  The incremental cost for an OEM to do a repair should be much less than retail.

[Kleinstein]

I still believe that pricing wouldn't be possible if their reliability was really as dismal as it seems based on the stories of people who have had bad experiences.

Suppose the annual failure rate is 1 in 20.  I would call that bad and that would be enough to generate howls of complaints, but if everyone had a contract, Keysight would have collected $820 for each failure.  That should cover it, I would think.  The incremental cost for an OEM to do a repair should be much less than retail.

That is especially true if they have a series fault on would only have the change the front part.
I would not expect the price for the waranty extension tp be calculated the normal way - it is more like an crude estimate upfront and rather hard to change a lot later on. Better pay a little for a few more repairs instead of unhappy customers.

[skander36]

New units come with screws mounted. The holes were left for rack mount kits, but with screws in place the face is rock solid. Without the screws it feel a little loosy.
Also they seem that changed the TI MCU (TM4C1292NCPDTI3 - G4), and what that seem to be an electric switch with a jumper. (see pics)
And they used for 34465A boards marked 34460.

[nctnico]

New units come with screws mounted. The holes were left for rack mount kits, but with screws in place the face is rock solid. Without the screws it feel a little loosy.
Also they seem that changed the TI MCU (TM4C1292NCPDTI3 - G4), and what that seem to be an electric switch with a jumper. (see pics)

If you put the datasheets / pinout of the TM4C1292NCPDTI3 next to the LM3S1D21, you'll spot many similarities. I think TI renamed the former Luminary devices and hopefully fixed their issues in the process.

[Bassman59]

New units come with screws mounted. The holes were left for rack mount kits, but with screws in place the face is rock solid. Without the screws it feel a little loosy.
Also they seem that changed the TI MCU (TM4C1292NCPDTI3 - G4), and what that seem to be an electric switch with a jumper. (see pics)

If you put the datasheets / pinout of the TM4C1292NCPDTI3 next to the LM3S1D21, you'll spot many similarities. I think TI renamed the former Luminary devices and hopefully fixed their issues in the process.

One major change between LM3S and TM4C is that the former is a Cortex-M3 and the latter is an M4.

[nctnico]

That is just the off-the-shelve CPU core. What matters is all that is around it.

[skander36]

They also came back with the kapton tape on top of the big caps ... 

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

I still believe that pricing wouldn't be possible if their reliability was really as dismal as it seems based on the stories of people who have had bad experiences.

Suppose the annual failure rate is 1 in 20.  I would call that bad and that would be enough to generate howls of complaints, but if everyone had a contract, Keysight would have collected $820 for each failure.  That should cover it, I would think.  The incremental cost for an OEM to do a repair should be much less than retail.

I can promise you the AFR is much better than that

[skander36]

I can promise you the AFR is much better than that

What does AFR stand for?