Author Topic: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win  (Read 21988 times)

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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2016, 05:36:31 am »
I was able to load up all 16 channels of the logic analyzer and the 4 analog channels to examine an entire fault sequence on my power management product for the first time.
:scared:

That we MUST see. Screenshot please.  :)

I am planning a similar test on Thursday, I will try to take a few photos and screen shots. Kinda fun trying to get that much probing on a PCB barely the size of the palm of my hand.

Does anyone know of a way to save directly to a network location? I have been saving to USB, but network share would be kinda bonus awesome.
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2016, 05:43:57 am »
Going to get a bit preachy here  :blah: and suggest that just about everyone in this thread spend some significant time studying basic digital signal processing theory in general and Fourier transforms in particular.  It's a shame to see people criticize an incredibly awesome piece of gear because it doesn't support a "25Mpt FFT" or some other such ridiculousness. 

Good idea.  :-+ Most importantly, the inter-dependencies between FFT sample size, sample rate, BW and frequency resolution, for example

df = Fs/N   (df = frequency resolution; fs = sample frequency, N = number of acquired points)

and

fmax<fs/2     (fmax = upper BW limit)

In short, the frequency resolution ('RBW') is dependent on the acquisition time, which again depends on the size of the memory and the sample rate. Lower sample rates allow longer acquisition times but also come with reduced BW due to Nyquist-Shannon laws.

For FFT to capture the full analog BW (6GHz) the sample rate must be at least 12GSa/s, a step that (if I remember right) doesn't exist on the DSOX6004A, with the next available sample rate step being the max of 20GSa/s.

With a 1M FFT sample size, the scope can capture 50us, which gives it a frequency resolution ('RBW') of 20kHz. To go lower, i.e. to 10kHz, the sample rate must reduce (10GSa/s which is the next lower step), which reduces the usable BW to <5GHz, <2.5GHz (5kHz), <1.25GHz (2.5kHz) and so on.

With 25M FFT size, the full sample rate of 20GSa/s could be maintained down to an RBW of 800Hz.

It should now be clear why most high bandwidth scopes use long memory for FFT and why having 25Mpts or more for FFT isn't as ridiculous as you seem to think (modern high BW scopes can typically use >100M for FFT). Of course Keysight knows this, too, because all their high bandwidth Infiniium scopes can use long memory for FFT, and have been for ages (even my old DSO8064A with 4GSa/s and 1.2GHz real BW uses up to 32Mpts for FFT). The reason the DSOX6004 doesn't lies in the limitations of its MegaZoom ASIC and it's (comparably) slow platform.

It doesn't make the DSOX6004 a bad scope. It just means that looking at the frequency spectrum is important then I'd look for an alternative, i.e. a cheap SA.
 
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Offline memset

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2016, 07:32:16 pm »
What is the type pf ADC in 6000X? Is it the same 80-way interleaved 20 GSa/s ADC as used in previous generations?
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2016, 12:48:27 am »
Most importantly, the inter-dependencies between FFT sample size, sample rate, BW and frequency resolution, for example

Once you have all that  - I think you need some brutal computational power to be usably responsive. 
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2016, 02:53:35 am »
Most importantly, the inter-dependencies between FFT sample size, sample rate, BW and frequency resolution, for example

Once you have all that  - I think you need some brutal computational power to be usably responsive.

At some point, straight FFTs are no longer the preferred approach.  That point usually arrives well before you start crunching 25 million points.  :)
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2016, 05:23:55 am »
Most importantly, the inter-dependencies between FFT sample size, sample rate, BW and frequency resolution, for example

Once you have all that  - I think you need some brutal computational power to be usably responsive.

True, but scopes in this class usually come with very powerful processing backends.

At some point, straight FFTs are no longer the preferred approach.  That point usually arrives well before you start crunching 25 million points.  :)

No, it doesn't. Especially not with modern wideband signals. Good luck trying to capture a 100Mhz wide signal with your average swept SA (most of the better common SAs have a max RBW of 10 or so MHz, and while high end SAs can go to some 500MHz they cost a lot more than any of the scopes in question). A scope like the DSO-S can capture several GHz in adequate resolution. Modern SAs of course also come with FFT, but it's usually very limited in performance and memory compared to a modern high bandwidth scope.

Like many things the use of deep memory FFT depends on what you do but there are many situations where long FFT on a scope can be really helpful. Even if a good SA is available, because the typical swept SA isn't always the better tool.

Fast FFT with very large sample sizes certainly hasn't become standard in that class because there's no use for it (FFT is probably the most processing-intensive application on a modern scope, and I'm sure manufacturers would gladly save on expenditure for the required fast processing elements if 1Mpts on a low-end embedded platform was enough)  ;)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 08:58:59 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2016, 05:57:30 am »
Ah that is why the FFT on my old 6000 never looked all that good.

What I like about the FFT on the 9000 is that you just enter the RBW and span and the scope sets up the sample rate and memory size and all that for you. Makes it feel like you are using a SA instead of a scope. It also "sweeps" pretty fast as it updates faster than once per second with quite a few Mpts.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2016, 03:14:46 pm »
I just got my DSOX6004A today and it makes my 7000 series scope look small, LOL!
Here is a comparison shot.

But where do I find a setting to turn OFF the serial number displayed at the top of a screen shot
Why would I publish my Serial Number to a client, every time I send a screen shot.
What was Keysight thinking to implement this?
Or have I overlooked a setting, to turn it off?

Hmmmm

It is a very impressive scope.
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2016, 07:16:43 pm »
Saving a .PNG file to the USB drive is about twice as fast as with the 7000 Series scope
That is actually a very good improvement

Funny, the voice recognition does not like my weir German/English accent when set to American English.
But it works well in German.

So many things to play with!
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2016, 07:52:18 pm »
JAVA control of the DSOX6000A works so well, I am really impressed.

There is so much to discover about this scope, it will take a few days to get to know it.



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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2016, 08:11:12 pm »
I am surprised how useful the voice control is. Initially, I tried it just for the sake of trying it. After just a few times where my hand were full and I could start/stop/single/zoom, etc, etc - awesome. It saves me from needing to setup probe holders.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2016, 10:42:16 pm »
JAVA control of the DSOX6000A works so well, I am really impressed.

There is so much to discover about this scope, it will take a few days to get to know it.

I have not tried the java interface - how do you get to it? I used the HTML5, but it is screen only - no virtual panel.
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2016, 11:38:07 pm »
I just got my DSOX6004A today and it makes my 7000 series scope look small, LOL!
Here is a comparison shot.

But where do I find a setting to turn OFF the serial number displayed at the top of a screen shot
Why would I publish my Serial Number to a client, every time I send a screen shot.
What was Keysight thinking to implement this?
Or have I overlooked a setting, to turn it off?

Hmmmm

It is a very impressive scope.

And I thought the 7000 was big!

I don't think Agilent/Keysight necessarily used the screen real estate to its best capacity in either scope, but on the 7000 the fonts seem enormous because they use the same 1024x768 resolution with the same firmware on the 5000 and 6000 (non-x) which only have 6" or so displays. As a comparison, x6000 is only 800x600 resolution.

The waveform area itself is limited to the ASIC in each case, but the old 5000/6000/7000 have about 1000x630 pixels, and the new X series only about 640x400 for the x2000/x3000 or 640x480 for the x4000/x6000, both less than half the pixels of those older models.

In use though, somewhat counter intuitively, I don't particularly notice the drop in resolution between the 7000 and x3000 I use daily.

 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2016, 12:42:59 am »
I just got my DSOX6004A today and it makes my 7000 series scope look small, LOL!
Here is a comparison shot.

Are you able to say where you picked up your X6000? What type of work do you have in mind for it?
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Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2016, 06:11:34 am »

Are you able to say where you picked up your X6000? What type of work do you have in mind for it?

I am also interested in hearing it since these things don't run cheep.

The 9000 I have also slacks off in the resolution department. It's a pretty huge scope yet the screen is only 1024x768 like on the tiny screens of the old 5000 and 6000. Yes you can see the pixels, but it never bothers me, it can show enough detail on the waveform. The low resolution is actually a good thing because it has a touchscreen since this makes the UI elements big and easy to press(without using the scaling options in windows that sometimes break stuff)
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2016, 08:52:30 am »
I have not tried the java interface - how do you get to it? I used the HTML5, but it is screen only - no virtual panel.
1. Install JAVA
2. Configure JAVA with a security exception for the scope
3. Use your browser and log in to the IP address of the scope
4. Click on the "Browser Web Control button
5. Select "Full Scope Remote Front Panel"
6. Confirm to "run" Java
Done


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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2016, 09:03:26 am »
I just got my DSOX6004A today and it makes my 7000 series scope look small, LOL!
Here is a comparison shot.

Are you able to say where you picked up your X6000? What type of work do you have in mind for it?
Well, I have this new project and need to analyze high voltage spark discharge formation in the pico second range. Any good fast scope would have done the job. But this one was offered to me at such a low cost, that I could not say no and it will work perfectly for the job. I don't care for the MSO part, since I have the MSO7000B series scope for that.
But the serial bus decoding in the 6000x will be handy for an upcoming automotive CAN BUS project.

I played all night with this scope. It is that impressive!
The responses on all buttons and even on the touch screen are really amazing.
BenchVue v3.5 connects perfectly and also has a good response on controls.
This is a highly recommended scope.

 
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2016, 09:12:52 am »
The 9000 I have also slacks off in the resolution department. It's a pretty huge scope yet the screen is only 1024x768 like on the tiny screens of the old 5000 and 6000. Yes you can see the pixels, but it never bothers me, it can show enough detail on the waveform. The low resolution is actually a good thing because it has a touchscreen since this makes the UI elements big and easy to press(without using the scaling options in windows that sometimes break stuff)

Indeed, the large screen on the DSO9000 helps a lot. It was a huge improvement over the predecessor (DSO8000) which has the same resolution and essentially the same UI as a 9000 running XP but on a tiny 8.4" touch display, which makes the touch option useless unless you have toddler-sized fingers.

Also, a very high resolution is pretty pointless on an 8bit scope, at least as long as the pixel size doesn't get overly large and text is still crisp and easily readable. I've another scope with a 10.2" SVGA (800x600) screen but the resolution is fine because the UI is well designed and makes very good use of the screen area.


1. Install JAVA

I really wish that scope manufacturers would stop requiring Java for their remote control interfaces. These days there are better alternatives which don't require additional software on the client, especially none that has such a poor security track record as Java.

At least on the Infiniiums one can simply use RDP to remote control the scope.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 09:14:44 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2016, 09:31:55 am »
1. Install JAVA

I really wish that scope manufacturers would stop requiring Java for their remote control interfaces. These days there are better alternatives which don't require additional software on the client, especially none that has such a poor security track record as Java.

At least on the Infiniiums one can simply use RDP to remote control the scope.
I totally agree on the JAVA stuff.
Plus the first time you have to configure it, it is horrible
Plus JAVA wants to update as much as an Adobe flash player.

But for some reasons it worked well on the 6000X series scope
And the response from clicking a button on the screen to seeing it on the scope is visually instant!
I have separate lab PC, just for instrument connections and don't mind the Java stuff on that one. 
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2016, 09:46:36 am »
I totally agree on the JAVA stuff.
Plus the first time you have to configure it, it is horrible
Plus JAVA wants to update as much as an Adobe flash player.

Indeed. Which, considering who's behind Java these days (Oracle), isn't really surprising.

Quote
But for some reasons it worked well on the 6000X series scope
And the response from clicking a button on the screen to seeing it on the scope is visually instant!
I have separate lab PC, just for instrument connections and don't mind the Java stuff on that one.

For me that's an option at home but not at work. In addition, Java gets increasingly shunned by modern browsers (and that rightfully so), and this will only become worse in the future, meaning more workarounds and exceptions, potentially opening even more gaps.

A modern scope shouldn't require installing insecure software like Java on your PC. Keysight should really replace the Java interface with a modern HTML5 solution.
 

Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2016, 10:17:51 am »
Oh they still use Java for everything? It made sense on the web interface of the 6000 since back then Java was the only sensible way of doing it. But I don't remember it being all that snappy on the 6000, so at least they improved be aspect of it.

My method of doing it on the 9000 is installing Synergy on it and my PC so that I can just move my mouse over on to the scope as if it is a second screen. Provides nice bonuses of having a real keyboard and being able to take screenshots simply by hitting print screen and then paste on my PC straight in to word document or whatever.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2016, 02:14:07 pm »
Its HTML5 on my unit, but I think JAVA is still supported for older browsers.

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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2016, 02:20:18 pm »
Its HTML5 on my unit, but I think JAVA is still supported for older browsers.

Interesting. So you can get the virtual scope incl all buttons and screen without Java?

Maybe it was changed in a firmware update.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2016, 04:37:48 pm »
The only reason you ever needed Java was to run a browser-hosted VNC client.  You can use your own native VNC client as well.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2016, 08:18:01 pm »
Its HTML5 on my unit, but I think JAVA is still supported for older browsers.

Interesting. So you can get the virtual scope incl all buttons and screen without Java?

Maybe it was changed in a firmware update.

I believe the HTML5 only delivers the screen payload - I have not figured out how to get the full virtual panel. Not even sure if it is possible. Because its touchscreen - you can get to all the functions with mouse clicks on the screen, but the buttons are faster. For example, the RUN/STOP function is in the menu, but I would rather see the panel and click on that. Minor detail.

I do like the browser based screen capture and data save button a lot. Seems like a small thing, but I am able to set it up to save direct to a network location where all the test data already is. Much less cumbersome than USB stick. Beyond the banner spec of 6Ghz - they day to day bits of this scope are really fast and easy. They clearly prioritize operator speed which is why this box will help me make a living. My old Tek scope was just slow to operate in general and it was built before networked and USB capable instruments existed. All GPIB and very basic/cumbersome to save anything.

The REF waveforms are really handy. I can save a waveform and recall is to the screen and compare with live waveforms with only a few button pushes. That will be very handy to keep track of progress as I am working through prototypes.


One of the things I am trying to figure out is what options I have to program automated tests. Controlling the signal generators and capturing data. Maybe an externally controlled FRA program similar to the built in power app.I have Lab View, maybe I should use that. Guessing is will be far more responsive than my GPIB instruments.
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