Author Topic: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win  (Read 21989 times)

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Offline rx8pilot

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Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« on: July 15, 2016, 10:30:46 pm »
Many of you have seen the various threads on the Keysight Technologies 'Test to Impress' contest where the bold and beautiful MSOX-6004A 6Ghz scope was the top prize. In the end, the the Keysight team decided to give away not 1, but 3 of these because the contest was so close. I am the very lucky recipient of this instrument and look forward to using its capabilities to push myself personally and my business to design more advanced products.

Almost the day is showed up, I have been buried in manufacturing a rush on our main product and unable to do much with the new scope. That rush is starting to slow, and I wanted to have a place to discuss some of the details of what this scope can do. There is no question that a number of the features are beyond what I have used before and therefore hoping that this can be a good place to look at the details and better understand how to use it to gain insight into a design challenge.

One hurdle that will take a while to get over is that I need a number of probes to do what I plan to do with this. At the moment, I only have the 10:1 500Mhz passive probes that are kitted with it. I am looking at the various active high-speed voltage probes as well as current probes. The total on the probe wish list is about $15k which is not as bad as it sounds since I was pretty close to spending that on a new scope package anyway. Now, that money can go toward accessorizing this one.

In the meantime, I am trying to gather the video from the delivery (which was a TON of fun!) and fiddling with the general operation. I have connected it to a real PCB once so far. As I dig in, questions will come up and hopefully a discussion here can help get to the next level. So much to learn. So much fun!

Fun note: This is my first ethernet enabled piece of test equipment. Goodbye GPIB!
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Offline timb

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2016, 03:22:02 am »
Man, that is a gorgeous piece of kit! Looking forward to seeing a video of it in action. :D

Also, thank you once again for passing your old scope on! I can't properly express how grateful I am for that. I'll be putting it to good use and hopefully it'll serve me as well as it did you!

So, what kind of active probes are you looking at for the new scope? What sort of bandwidth?
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2016, 05:36:34 am »
Man, that is a gorgeous piece of kit! Looking forward to seeing a video of it in action. :D

Also, thank you once again for passing your old scope on! I can't properly express how grateful I am for that. I'll be putting it to good use and hopefully it'll serve me as well as it did you!

So, what kind of active probes are you looking at for the new scope? What sort of bandwidth?

Thank you timb - I need to go buy some packing material to ship your scope. The boxes I have are too small and I was not able to leave my desk all last week.

For probes - I need a variety to do what I want to do.

SMPS design/validation I need a pair of DC current probes, differential amplifier or probes for sense resistor current measurements, injection transformer for loop response measurements, and likely the power-rail probe.
For high-speed digital I need high-speed 6Ghz active probes to look at timing and signal integrity on signals that will probably be close to the BW limit of this scope. I suspect there will be a measurement technique learning curve to go along with my circuit design and PCB layout learning curves in the high-speed realm.

First task is to figure out how the scope deals with memory. I did a few tests and could not figure out how to capture more data than what fits on the screen. It is important that I understand the details of how the sample rate and memory are handled.

Basic functions seem to be quite obvious and intuitive and I love having the choice of buttons, touch screen, and mouse to navigate. I was quickly able to get to the point where I was functionally with my old Tek scope in terms of basic setup, triggering, horiz/vert controls, etc. The fancier features like reference wave forms, trigger on data packets, dual channel arbitrary waveform generators that can take a displayed waveform and 'play' it back. Awesome.

Before I can even think of spending $15k on probes and other accessories - I need to master the fundamentals. Maybe some of the other winners of the 3000's, 4000's and other Keysight owners can chime in. Maybe I should post video questions too.



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Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2016, 08:49:58 am »
Such a beautiful piece of kit that thing. Makes my old MSO6000 look like a toy.

Probes for getting the most of of such a scope are going to be expensive alright. I have a 4GHz MSO9000 that i use for high speed digital. My favorite probes for it are the HP 1152A active 2.5GHz probes. They can be had for 150 bucks on ebay and feature very low tip capacitance so that you don't mess up your circuit under test. In most cases 2.5GHz is plenty and the probes are pretty solid so should survive a lot of every day use as long as you don't drop one on the floor as the ceramic PCB inside is fragile. They have a common mode reach up to +/- 10V and are specified to survive 30V. Only problem is that these are infiniium branded probes while your scope might only support infinimax type probes. But there is a trick of covering the ID pin with tape to prevent the scope from detecting it (or if you change the resistor inside it will detect it as a diferent probe and work fine) and i got them to work on my 6000, just the voltage range of the probe is not to spec (The supply voltage is lower on non infiniium scopes)

As for using your scope to look at USB 3.0, HDMI etc then you will need a 1134A. These work on all modern scopes(Tested one on mine 6000). Those are significantly more expensive tho but you don't need more than one.

With about 2 grand and some time on ebay you can get all the basic probes to put that massive bandwidth to use.

Have fun with the new toy.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2016, 09:28:30 am »
Great that you have this beauty in your lab now.

Once in a while there are really good deals on probes on ebay.
But you have to have patience for a long time.
Congratulations again.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2016, 05:35:20 pm »
Patience has served me well so far....a requirement for eBay shopping. The next few projects I need to get done, will not need the high speed - so I am first looking for the current probes to get some power electronics through the process. The scope includes the the POWER analysis software option that I very much look forward to using.

One of the coolest option to be integrated is the FRA (frequency response analyzer) that uses the built in sig-gen to create a poor-mans FRA. While it may not be as sensitive and accurate as a Venable, it is FAR better than guessing the performance of the loop in SMPS designs. The POWER option also includes more basic functions that seem like they will speed up the process. I was previously using differential probes and sense resistors for current monitoring, but had to manually calculate everything. The Keysight scope with the POWER option automates the process. Perfect.

The only thing I worry about in working with SMPS designs is that it is more likely to make a probing mistake that can damage the scope. When I had a far lower cost scope - I was less nervous. It is quite nice to have a scope that can service needs in power and high-speed at the same time - just need to be bonus careful.


My favorite probes for it are the HP 1152A active 2.5GHz probes.

Not a bad suggestion. The cost is low enough that they can be the 'everyday' digital probes, where the juicier 6Ghz differentials would be more cautiously deployed. As for current probes - I am generally needing modest current <15A max and commonly need (want) to see relatively fine resolution of mA with lower currents of only a few amps. Using tiny 5mOhm sense resistors and differential amplifiers was ok for that. The ultimate accuracy was not likely all that good but generally I was looking for relative measurements.

I feel like I should have both clamp-on
http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2202912-pn-1147B/50-mhz-15a-ac-dc-current-probe?cc=US&lc=eng

 and the resistor based N2820A
http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2229629-pn-N2820A/3-mhz-50ua-high-sensitivity-ac-dc-current-probe-2-ch?cc=US&lc=eng

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2016, 06:13:04 pm »
IMHO a sense resistor and amplifier is a very good way to measure current accurately (ofcourse depending on the sense resistor and amplifier accuracy but these are easy to control). Clamp-on current probes use hall-effect chips and current transformers. Generally speaking they have large offsets and lots of noise.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2016, 06:40:06 pm »
IMHO a sense resistor and amplifier is a very good way to measure current accurately (ofcourse depending on the sense resistor and amplifier accuracy but these are easy to control). Clamp-on current probes use hall-effect chips and current transformers. Generally speaking they have large offsets and lots of noise.

Maybe I should consider a pair of the Preamble/LeCroy 1855 differential pre-amps. It seems the specs are rather awesome - much better than I had before. There are more uses other than current sensing too - bonus for versatility.

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Offline H.O

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2016, 07:30:06 pm »
Quote
Maybe I should consider a pair of the Preamble/LeCroy 1855 differential pre-amps.
Isn't that new baby of yours four channels? I'm sure two of them will feel left out if you get diff amps for only two of them :-)

How much are you looking to spend anyway? Same amount as that scope would've cost you had you not got it for free? Congrats BTW!
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2016, 07:51:30 pm »
Quote
Maybe I should consider a pair of the Preamble/LeCroy 1855 differential pre-amps.
Isn't that new baby of yours four channels? I'm sure two of them will feel left out if you get diff amps for only two of them :-)

How much are you looking to spend anyway? Same amount as that scope would've cost you had you not got it for free? Congrats BTW!

Diff amp on two channels and two voltage probes on the other. Full house  :-+

I was anticipating around $15k if I get a combination of new and used-but-nearly-new. That would cover the power related and high-speed related needs that I can think of now. Obviously, if I get lucky and find deals that will be great and I do have some time to build up a probe package for this scope. It is a LOT cheaper when you are not in a huge hurry.

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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2016, 04:32:06 pm »
I connected the scope to one of my cameras last night just to see some high-speed action (sort of).

1.485 Gbps HD-SDI which is a serial signal on a 75 Ohm coax cable. I terminated it at 50 Ohms, but it still shows some fast edges that I could not see before. The rise time is about 120ps or so and the signals I am most interested in are about 60-75ps. I was able to do some jitter analysis and build a real time eye too. This is getting fun.


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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2016, 08:40:55 pm »
Here's a link to the 1152a mod. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-mso-500060007000-anyone-hacked-these-scopes/msg868073/#msg868073

It may be that your scope supports this probe directly without any fiddling about, but just be aware that the significant DC offset I encountered on my x3054a, and there isn't a means to adjust it from the UI, so it means I don't generally use it on that scope. It is, however, quite a bargain for a FET active probe. There may be a way to adjust the offset by adding a trimpot, maybe on pin 3 of the autoprobe interface?
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2016, 08:49:31 pm »
Here's a link to the 1152a mod. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-mso-500060007000-anyone-hacked-these-scopes/msg868073/#msg868073

It may be that your scope supports this probe directly without any fiddling about, but just be aware that the significant DC offset I encountered on my x3054a, and there isn't a means to adjust it from the UI, so it means I don't generally use it on that scope. It is, however, quite a bargain for a FET active probe. There may be a way to adjust the offset by adding a trimpot, maybe on pin 3 of the autoprobe interface?

That is juicy news and a fast/easy/low-cost path to get 2.5Ghz single ended probes. GREAT info.
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Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2016, 08:55:11 pm »
Who knows if you are lucky they might work unmodified on that scope. Only one way to find out.

Getting under 100ps rise time signals is not easy by the way, Perhaps looking at some USB 3.0, but you might need a proper probing solution for that.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2016, 09:15:02 pm »
Getting under 100ps rise time signals is not easy by the way, Perhaps looking at some USB 3.0, but you might need a proper probing solution for that.

Yes, agreed. <100ps is nuts. I expect that the N2752A 6Ghz is the best option to deal with those signals properly. These signals are generally only seen in broadcast TV and film production and post production. My new designs will need to generate and receive these signals to the appropriate SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture Television Engineers) specification. Line drivers and equalizers are generally off the shelf silicon and that places my primary challenge on PCB layout, connectors, power etc. I need to be able to quantify delay and jitter as well as seek out any infrequent glitches, runts, or other error generating anomalies. This scope is perfect for that - but only with the right probes for sure.

I suspect that placing dedicated high-speed probe points on the PCB would be very wise. Hoping the 'technique' learning curve is modest trying to look at signal integrity issues at close to the limits of the BW of this scope.

For those that missed the 'Arrival' video of this scope......
https://youtu.be/_GIldByHYPk
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2016, 09:29:04 pm »
IMHO a TDR and impedance analyser (or spectrum analyser + generator + directional coupler) are much better tools for validating transmissions lines than a scope when using off-the-shelve silicon. A TDR allows you to see any impedance changes versus time so gives a good view on what the signal path looks like. An impedance analyser shows the impedance versus frequency which gives some insight into signal attenuation over frequency (see also SWR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_wave_ratio ).
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Offline tautech

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2016, 10:01:22 pm »
Patience has served me well so far....a requirement for eBay shopping. The next few projects I need to get done, will not need the high speed - so I am first looking for the current probes to get some power electronics through the process. The scope includes the the POWER analysis software option that I very much look forward to using.

One of the coolest option to be integrated is the FRA (frequency response analyzer) that uses the built in sig-gen to create a poor-mans FRA. While it may not be as sensitive and accurate as a Venable, it is FAR better than guessing the performance of the loop in SMPS designs. The POWER option also includes more basic functions that seem like they will speed up the process. I was previously using differential probes and sense resistors for current monitoring, but had to manually calculate everything. The Keysight scope with the POWER option automates the process. Perfect.
Be sure to Deskew any propagation delays out between current and voltage probes for PA computations to be accurate.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2016, 11:05:16 pm »
IMHO a TDR and impedance analyser (or spectrum analyser + generator + directional coupler) are much better tools for validating transmissions lines than a scope when using off-the-shelve silicon. A TDR allows you to see any impedance changes versus time so gives a good view on what the signal path looks like. An impedance analyser shows the impedance versus frequency which gives some insight into signal attenuation over frequency (see also SWR https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_wave_ratio ).

While those are good to consider for those tasks, I don't have any of them yet. For the transmission line signals, to some extent, I will have to go with the reference designs and use the scope to validate the signals as best as possible. Since the parameters of the transmission line and the signals on it are etched in stone - should I really be worried about  analysis at that level? The connectors, layouts, external components have long since been chosen. Is that a logical fallacy?

Most of the signal measuring will happen differentially on the PCB and need to see noise, phase, and other signal anomalies as well as measure timing from the FPGA's driving the signals - things that scopes are good at.

Be sure to Deskew any propagation delays out between current and voltage probes for PA computations to be accurate.

Johnnie Hancock from Keysight gave me a lesson on this personally while doing a demo on the POWER option. It's an easy detail to overlook so the scope actually reminds you during the setup of the processes that use the current probes. Great point - skipping that step could have me chasing my tail indefinitely.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2016, 01:34:13 am »
IMHO a TDR and impedance analyser (or spectrum analyser + generator + directional coupler) are much better tools for validating transmissions lines.......

You have already got me looking at new gear with all the money I saved winning the scope  :-DD

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Online Brumby

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2016, 02:59:57 am »
I am still in awe of the screen real estate ... I mean, that's acreage!

I will now step back - and put my voyeur hat on........
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2016, 03:23:31 am »
The display is indeed enormous and awesome.

Sent from my horrible mobile....

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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2016, 10:16:05 pm »
Trying to understand the limitations of the FFT. I have never owned an SA, so my ability to compare is near zero. First look seems like it is slow and has a high noise floor - but keep in mind that this is a new place for me that I have very little understanding and not even sure where to look first.

The options seem minimal. Does anyone have tips/hints/white papers/links/etc for using FFT? I had generally ignored FFT since I did not have the capability, but with a 6Ghz-20GS/s front end I was hoping it would allow me to get through some pre-compliance and very basic RF measurements (with external amplifiers). Curious how much mileage I can get out of the FFT.

How to choose the window? What noise floor should I expect in a best-case scenario? The no-input noise floor seems about -97dBm.

EDIT:
As usual, a great video from W2aew
https://youtu.be/oRf-IpG6XAw

« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 11:16:45 pm by rx8pilot »
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Offline tautech

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2016, 11:48:07 pm »
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Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2016, 06:09:04 am »
You can get a bit better FFT with averaging on the waveform and playing with the settings just right. The 8 bit ADC in there is the limiting factor with its quantization noise. But with all those GS/s the high res mode is pretty useful. I only ever saw this scope at a Keysight stand on a trade show(and the guy there quickly tried to sell me on one) so I don't know how high res works on it, but my 9000 has a useful one where it down samples the signal by a fixed ratio. For example it turns 20GS/s in to 2,5GS/s with 500MHz of bandwidth and what they claim 12bit resolution. It does make the signal nice and clean without the weird artifacting that the old scopes do in high res. Since a lot of times I don't need more than 500MHz I usually run it in this mode.

Spectrum analyzers only have better noise floors when using low RBW settings. I'm still getting the hang of those since I bought my first SA just a few days ago (never did much RF work so have t had the need for one)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2016, 07:25:16 am »
What's that beast of a modular PSU?
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2016, 08:08:38 am »
The display is indeed enormous and awesome.

I have a similarly sized display in the MSOX7104B I have, and it's taken me a while to get it set up in a way that it doesn't takeover the bench, or alternatively is so out-of-the-way that it becomes inconvenient to control without having to lean out of he chair every few moments.

For smaller lunchbox style scopes I've used gas spring articulated VESA mounts, but the 7104B and I assume the 6004 is a bit too heavy and combersome to jury rig something up, although I did try. My solution now is a slide-out shelf on runners and a turntable that's about 8" above the bench, so I still enjoy the all important bench space and benefit from thr "enormous and awesome" display.




 

Offline memset

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2016, 10:30:33 am »
Wow, such a nice, overpowered and overpriced toy!
Although best thing to get as a prize, I wonder who would prefer X6000-series scope over DSO-S series for the money?

Similarly priced, DSO-S looks to be better in all features. Except for the weight and waveform update rate, that's 450000/s for hardware-based X6000 and only 700/s for software-driven DSO-S.
But hey, for the same price magnitude you're getting loads of memory, full compatibility with InfiiniMax probes, crazy 10-bit ADC and OCXO-based timebase.
And I didn't mention Windows 7 enabling you to browse Internet directly on the scope screen pretending you're working hard.

Just can't understand why Keysight set their prices so close.
 

Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2016, 10:39:00 am »
That is a pretty neat solution for holding a scope. I keep it on a equipment shelf behind the bench and that only works without leaning when sitting directly in front of it, while the bench is 3m long. Still means I can make a bigger mess before I decide I can't work anymore and clean it.

I am curious to see your vesa mounted arrangement

Edit:
There are bad sides to these S scopes tho. They take long to boot, they are noisy and power hungry and you don't get a nice fuzzy graduated waveform on them. My MSO6000 gets mo e use than my MSO9000 for those very reasons
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 10:45:12 am by Berni »
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2016, 11:10:43 am »
Trying to understand the limitations of the FFT. I have never owned an SA, so my ability to compare is near zero. First look seems like it is slow and has a high noise floor - but keep in mind that this is a new place for me that I have very little understanding and not even sure where to look first.


See if there's a "Precision" option that you can turn on in the scope's settings/configuration menu.  Agilent added this feature to one of the later firmware releases for the DSO/MSO6000 scopes, which was extremely awesome of them.  It allows FFTs to be performed on the entire acquisition record rather than just the screenspace data buffer. 

It may not be included or relevant in the newer-generation models, but if it is, you should familiarize yourself with it.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2016, 12:25:33 pm »

I am curious to see your vesa mounted arrangement


Here are some details. In the first link, I had the 7000 on top of the monitor, but it was inconvenient to keep having to get up, so typically I found I ended up using the smaller form factor x3000 on the vesa mount bracket shown in the second link. The Tek MDO3000 comes with a vesa mount already fitted, and I have both the MSOX3054a and the MDO3000 on the same clamp stand on separate gas spring articulated arms.

To finish it off, both scopes are on quick release brackets so if I need to use the scopes elsewhere I can, and if I want to put another monitor on the arm for pcb/schematic layout for example I can easily do that too.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-dso-for-work-any-opinions-welcome/msg861879/#msg861879

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-dso-for-work-any-opinions-welcome/msg871104/#msg871104

http://youtu.be/IbPh7-DGkC8?t=50s
 

Offline memset

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2016, 01:03:06 pm »
My MSO6000 gets mo e use than my MSO9000 for those very reasons
Sure it's better to have both, but if you'll be choosing one to spend big money to...

Here are some details.
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2016, 01:53:21 pm »

Here are some details.
Mein Gott! Howardlong, so many scopes :)

So I can fix the ones I break ;-)
 

Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2016, 04:26:50 pm »
Sure it's better to have both, but if you'll be choosing one to spend big money to...

Well if you spend that much you can still afford a Rigol 1000Z for the quick poke around jobs.

I still wouldn't mind a low end S series for a good price. They have software unlockable bandwidth to 8 Jigaherz and i might happen to know a little bit how the licensing system works.
 

Offline memset

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2016, 05:07:41 pm »
I still wouldn't mind a low end S series for a good price. They have software unlockable bandwidth to 8 Jigaherz and i might happen to know a little bit how the licensing system works.
Yep. BTW, 6000 X-series are also all-software up to 6GHz.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2016, 05:46:59 pm »
What's that beast of a modular PSU?

That is a Chroma DC electronic load. Up to 8 channels - a fantastic instrument for the multi-channel power systems I have been designing.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2016, 06:35:37 pm »
There's a good paper linked by rf-loop in this post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg965873/#msg965873

Excellent paper, thank you for the link. If the paper was not nerdy enough - I was reading it at a Weird Al Yankovic concert last night for bonus nerd points.

I have a similarly sized display in the MSOX7104B I have, and it's taken me a while to get it set up in a way that it doesn't takeover the bench.......

So far, with the few hours I have in front of this scope, I am slowly developing a flow and physical layout. The scope, in general has been placed out of reach from where by DUT would be. At first it was just where I arbitrarily set it up. What I found myself intuitively doing is using the front panel to do an initial setup. When I was focusing on probing (relatively far from the scope) - I just kept my wireless mouse close by for tweaks. The voice control was reasonably handy for simple things like start/stop and single shot while both hands were on probes. I kind of like having the scope out of the way and using the mouse/voice - that arrangement gives me some space for the DUT and all the leads coming/going.

Wow, such a nice, overpowered and overpriced toy!
Keysight gave me a good deal.  :-DD Only cost a few weeks of pestering friends, family, and complete strangers for votes.

Although best thing to get as a prize, I wonder who would prefer X6000-series scope over DSO-S series for the money?

Similarly priced, DSO-S looks to be better in all features. Except for the weight and waveform update rate, that's 450000/s for hardware-based X6000 and only 700/s for software-driven DSO-S.
But hey, for the same price magnitude you're getting loads of memory, full compatibility with InfiiniMax probes, crazy 10-bit ADC and OCXO-based timebase.
And I didn't mention Windows 7 enabling you to browse Internet directly on the scope screen pretending you're working hard.

Just can't understand why Keysight set their prices so close.

It's hard to say for sure. I was looking at getting a round of financing about a year ago and that was partially for a new high-end scope. The The S-series was high on the list and the X6000 was not on the list at all. During my research, I found how difficult it is to pick an 'all-around' scope that can go from power-electronics to high-speed digital. There are so many little details that add and subtract capability in different areas. Certainly one consideration is the liability of having one very expensive scope vs 2 or more more task dedicated scopes. In SMPS design, the scope is at more risk and does not need anything close to 6Ghz. The high-speed scopes tend to focus on signal integrity for digital systems. The X6000 fits somewhere in the middle and is good at being the only scope on the bench.

While I don't know for sure, it seems the X6000 is much easier to get discounted relative to the S-Series. The MSRP's seem rather close and the S-Series has a winning front end and gobs of memory. Hard to say if the slower update rate would be a problem or not.

In the end, I never business planned to win this scope from Keysight. Now that I have it, I can spend my T&M money on other things - starting with an awesome probe kit. If I had to pay for the scope, it would take a lot longer to go beyond basic probing. In reality, I probably would have looked for a round of financing and used it on a broader variety of lower-cost gear. My money has to cover much more territory than T&M - the whole business is always screaming for more stuff - computers, software, pick and place parts, labor, wire stripping machines, laser engraver, air conditioning upgrade, etc, etc. This thing is a real world win of $40k+ taxes - massive bonus and just the beginning.


See if there's a "Precision" option that you can turn on in the scope's settings/configuration menu.  Agilent added this feature to one of the later firmware releases for the DSO/MSO6000 scopes, which was extremely awesome of them.  It allows FFTs to be performed on the entire acquisition record rather than just the screenspace data buffer. 

It may not be included or relevant in the newer-generation models, but if it is, you should familiarize yourself with it.

I looked at the impact of using hi-res mode and how it may impact FFT performance. What seems to be hidden or at least hard to understand - is how the system is using it's memory. I find myself trying to figure out how long will it take to fill up the modest 4Mpts of memory at a particular sample rate. It would be nice to be able to specify how much time I need to capture and the sample rate would adjust even if I was on a much faster timebase. Or, if I am looking at a span on the FFT - the scope would adjust to an appropriate minimum sample rate. These may be the wishes of an newbie beginner though.

Curious if anyone knows if it would be possible to measure output power of WiFi, Bluetooth, etc - what instrument is needed for those measurements?
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Offline BFX

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2016, 06:59:21 pm »
Curious if anyone knows if it would be possible to measure output power of WiFi, Bluetooth, etc - what instrument is needed for those measurements?

You need an HF Power Meter  ... little expensive unit.
For common usage is enough homemade power meter based on AD8318.
Really nice base part is this Chinese board from eBay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/142020799172

And congratulation MSOX-6004A is really nice piece of gear.
 

Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2016, 07:06:51 pm »
You certainly can look at wifi and other 2.4GHz stuff. If you a are interested more than just tx power but actually demodulating it, then you might want to look at Keysights VSA software. It can be used to turn my MSO9000 in to a vector spectrum analyzer with bit error rate meshurement and everything. It runs the oscilloscope data trough FFT to do it, but it gets better performance when run on a actual spectrum analyzer(still uses FFT but works better because the signal is downcoverted and digitized with a high resolution adc)

I don't know if it can work on your scope but it's worth a look.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2016, 10:25:54 pm »
I looked at the impact of using hi-res mode and how it may impact FFT performance. What seems to be hidden or at least hard to understand - is how the system is using it's memory. I find myself trying to figure out how long will it take to fill up the modest 4Mpts of memory at a particular sample rate. It would be nice to be able to specify how much time I need to capture and the sample rate would adjust even if I was on a much faster timebase. Or, if I am looking at a span on the FFT - the scope would adjust to an appropriate minimum sample rate. These may be the wishes of an newbie beginner though.

Hi-res mode isn't the same thing.  If there's a "hi-res mode," and if it works like the one in the previous 6xxx scopes, then it trades off aliasing protection for a few more simulated bits of ADC resolution, and has no useful effect on the FFT display.  You're better off ignoring it.  The "precision" setting, on the other hand, decouples the FFT input size from the screenspace waveform buffer.

On the MSO/DSO6000 series, the FFT rate and length is determined by a combination of the horizontal time/div setting, the selected FFT span width, and whether the 'precision' control is turned on.  What I usually do is enable the precision feature, assuming I care more about the resolution and noise floor than I do about acquisition time.  Often that's the case, but not always.  Then I set the desired span width and adjust the time/div control for a good compromise between bin density and acquisition time.  Finally, if I need averaging to reduce the noise floor further, I'll mess with that.  This may all work entirely differently on your model, of course. 

Quote
Curious if anyone knows if it would be possible to measure output power of WiFi, Bluetooth, etc - what instrument is needed for those measurements?

You can probably do this but it may not be straightforward. 

Ideally you'd select an equivalent "resolution bandwidth" or "analysis bandwidth" that's wider than the modulation type you're looking at, so that the entire waveform (or at least the majority of it) is represented in a single FFT bin, or more precisely within the response of a flat-top window.   The amplitude can be translated directly into signal power based on the load impedance.  With most traditional spectrum analyzers you don't get resolution bandwidths on the required order of 100 MHz, so you'd typically look at the amplitude in a narrower bandwidth and scale it up to the signal bandwidth by 10*log10(signal BW / resolution BW) dB.  This is made possible by the fact that modern modulation types look like noise, but it's also complicated by the same fact.  The effective noise bandwidth isn't quite the same as the nominal bandwidth rating for most real-world filters, whether they're physical filters or FFT windows.

Even if the scope won't let you position your entire signal in a single wideband FFT bin, you could just capture a burst in the time domain and convert its amplitude into RMS power based on its crest factor without bothering with the frequency domain at all.  The trouble with that is that you'd need to know the crest factor for the modulation type in question.  Hopefully the scope can do the RMS conversion for you, but you'll still need to reconcile your measurement with the relevant regulations and standards, which will be written in terms of mask shapes, duty cycles, antenna gains, and other stuff.

So, the TL;DR is that you'd want a software package that knows how to measure occupied bandwidth and power for the specific wireless industry standard you're working with.  Capturing the raw data is only the first step.  You don't need a dedicated power meter, given a sufficiently-killer scope, but you do need to think carefully about how to interpret the data you get.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2016, 10:44:07 pm by KE5FX »
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2016, 11:58:10 am »
While I don't know for sure, it seems the X6000 is much easier to get discounted relative to the S-Series. The MSRP's seem rather close and the S-Series has a winning front end and gobs of memory. Hard to say if the slower update rate would be a problem or not.

The DSOX6k gets pretty large discounts simply because it's a tough sell, mainly because it's not exactly the type of scope that people expect in this price class. It's main strength is the waveform update rate but that's generally not a critical factor in this price class.

Quote
I looked at the impact of using hi-res mode and how it may impact FFT performance. What seems to be hidden or at least hard to understand - is how the system is using it's memory. I find myself trying to figure out how long will it take to fill up the modest 4Mpts of memory at a particular sample rate.

If I remember right FFT on the DSOX6k doesn't use above 1Mpts of memory.


You certainly can look at wifi and other 2.4GHz stuff. If you a are interested more than just tx power but actually demodulating it, then you might want to look at Keysights VSA software. It can be used to turn my MSO9000 in to a vector spectrum analyzer with bit error rate meshurement and everything. It runs the oscilloscope data trough FFT to do it, but it gets better performance when run on a actual spectrum analyzer(still uses FFT but works better because the signal is downcoverted and digitized with a high resolution adc)

I don't know if it can work on your scope but it's worth a look.

The DSOX6000, like all DSOX models, is an embedded scope (I think running WinCE) on which you can't install 3rd party applications. You'd need an Infiniium scope (like the MSO9000), which is Keysight's Series of scopes running desktop Windows, to install the VSA software directly.

The DSOX6k can still be used with the 89600B VSA software if its installed on a separate PC. Performance will be limited though as there's no way to get real-time data out of the scope fast enough for streaming (it's limited to USB 2.0 and a not exactly fast 1000Mbps Ethernet interface).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 12:02:48 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline memset

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2016, 12:27:58 pm »
The DSOX6k gets pretty large discounts simply because it's a tough sell, mainly because it's not exactly the type of scope that people expect in this price class. It's main strength is the waveform update rate but that's generally not a critical factor in this price class.
I'd prefer high-speed interface (PCIe/10ge, etc) decoding / trigger for a 6GHz-class scope.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2016, 02:28:14 pm »
The DSOX6k gets pretty large discounts simply because it's a tough sell, mainly because it's not exactly the type of scope that people expect in this price class. It's main strength is the waveform update rate but that's generally not a critical factor in this price class.
I'd prefer high-speed interface (PCIe/10ge, etc) decoding / trigger for a 6GHz-class scope.

Yes, I'd too. I'd also want decent FFT (>25Mpts), a wide range of triggers and search tools, and some serial data/signal analysis tools at least as option, and MathLab integration (on the scope).

FFT on the DSO-S is very nice  :)
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2016, 08:07:12 pm »
If I remember right FFT on the DSOX6k doesn't use above 1Mpts of memory.

Ouch. Where would I find that data? I cannot really figure out what is happening under the hood.

I have been binge reading/watching about FFT and SA's over the weekend. While I am still under-educated on the topic, it appears that the FFT on the X6000 is rather limited. The good news is that I don't really need it for what I am doing right now. What I would like, however, is to find an SA/Signal Analyzer/VNA etc that has a good triggers and a trigger output so that I can time correlate events between the time and frequency domain.

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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2016, 09:10:11 pm »
If I remember right FFT on the DSOX6k doesn't use above 1Mpts of memory.

Ouch. Where would I find that data? I cannot really figure out what is happening under the hood.

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5991-4087EN.pdf?id=2456396&cc=GB&lc=eng

Page 34:

Enhanced FFT:                Record size: Up to 1-Mpts resolution via precision mode

Not a lot  ;)

Quote
I have been binge reading/watching about FFT and SA's over the weekend. While I am still under-educated on the topic, it appears that the FFT on the X6000 is rather limited. The good news is that I don't really need it for what I am doing right now. What I would like, however, is to find an SA/Signal Analyzer/VNA etc that has a good triggers and a trigger output so that I can time correlate events between the time and frequency domain.

That depends on what you want, i.e. BW, RBW range, RF performance, and budget.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2016, 10:50:11 pm »
Enhanced FFT:                Record size: Up to 1-Mpts resolution via precision mode

I am not sure what 'precision mode' is - there is no mention of it in the manual. Curious if the 450k/s update rate reduced the need for large records to be stored for FFT. Even though it's taking a small bite of data - it's taking a lot of bites?

The only source of high frequencies I have right now sends out 1.485Gbps data. I was curious how the FFT would do with this. After adding some filtering (averaging), it was easily able to see the 3rd harmonic at 6Ghz. It looks like it will be a useful general purpose tool, but I doubt it will replace an SA as I advance my studies. Being able to get a quick spectral picture out past 6Ghz.

That depends on what you want, i.e. BW, RBW range, RF performance, and budget.

6+Ghz, with some analysis capability and tracking gen. $5k to $15k (obviously looking at used options, but not decades old stuff). Right now, probes are by far the higher priority.






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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2016, 12:45:32 am »
....wellllll look what I just found. The 'PRECISION' option that feeds more (much more) data into the FFT engine. The default I think is around 64kpts for the FFT and the precision takes that to 1Mpts. No wonder I was struggling to see anything! Much better! :-+ The downside is that is gets rather slow. Finding glitches in the frequency domain is not going to happen at this speed. This is memory dedicated to the math functions and is a sample reduced data set from the main acquisition memory. I guess that is why it gets slow.


Pic1: Precision off, not enough data for FFT.

Pic2: Precision on, but at 100kps - nothing

Pic3: Precision on at 1Mpts has useful amount of data available to accomplish FFT.

Now I am looking at the various measurements, filtering, peak detect, etc, etc not that I can get some spectral data.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 12:50:15 am by rx8pilot »
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2016, 03:10:05 am »
....wellllll look what I just found. The 'PRECISION' option that feeds more (much more) data into the FFT engine.

Yes, that's what I just explained earlier.  It was a big help when Agilent added this feature to their older 6000-series models, but I doubt that even 1% of their customer base has used it or even noticed it.

Going to get a bit preachy here  :blah: and suggest that just about everyone in this thread spend some significant time studying basic digital signal processing theory in general and Fourier transforms in particular.  It's a shame to see people criticize an incredibly awesome piece of gear because it doesn't support a "25Mpt FFT" or some other such ridiculousness. 

Especially for those who have been given free access to these scopes, please take the time to learn what these tools can do, learn how they work, and learn as much as you can about how they're implemented. 

Seriously.  This is some amazingly cool stuff, and it will only get better as your understanding increases.  You guys with these scopes have been given a kingly gift.  Don't waste it.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 03:12:53 am by KE5FX »
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2016, 04:53:40 am »
Yes, that's what I just explained earlier. 

That is why I went on the hunt for it. If you said nothing, I would not have stumbled across that any time soon. I did find it in the manual and better understand what it does. Great tip - the FFT has much more limited use without it. The extra data does slow it down to the point where it only updates/sweeps once every few seconds - limiting its use. I don't think there is a magic menu for that. This precision feature is not at all obvious to me, thanks for pointing it out.

Going to get a bit preachy here  :blah: and suggest that just about everyone in this thread spend some significant time studying basic digital signal processing theory in general and Fourier transforms in particular.  It's a shame to see people criticize an incredibly awesome piece of gear because it doesn't support a "25Mpt FFT" or some other such ridiculousness. 

Especially for those who have been given free access to these scopes, please take the time to learn what these tools can do, learn how they work, and learn as much as you can about how they're implemented. 

Seriously.  This is some amazingly cool stuff, and it will only get better as your understanding increases.  You guys with these scopes have been given a kingly gift.  Don't waste it.

That is why I have been binge learning on the FFT topic the past few days. While that is only enough to scratch the surface, I have definitely covered some ground. The new surface knowledge has left me wanting more but I have to get back to revenue generating work now unfortunately. The more daily features have been fantastic. I was able to load up all 16 channels of the logic analyzer and the 4 analog channels to examine an entire fault sequence on my power management product for the first time. Being able to time correlate analog events with the i2c data is such a time saver. It is so much easier to look at actual timing from a fault condition to uC interrupt and the i2c responses during that time.

There are a few scenarios where the system I am working on is locking up or dealing with a short period of data errors and I suspect some glitches are on the i2c lines or possibly the 5v power rail. This is a power management device with a lot of high-current current switching and DC-DC conversion. Tons of opportunity for the delicate analog areas or i2c to couple some stray EMI.  This may be a good chance to take advantage of the fast update rate to catch a one time problem. To stimulate the problems, I have to set up a sequence of external problem scenarios and don't want to miss the problem when I finally get it to happen. The plan is to record the good i2c in the AWG and modify it with various problems so that I can work out various advanced triggers while playing it back. Once I feel like I have the triggers setup I can start trying to stimulate the problems - which could take a long time. Being able to see a dozen elements at the same time should help isolate the root  cause. Learning the details of the instrument is the only way to sort these kinds of things out.

This instrument will not be wasted at all.
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Offline tautech

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2016, 05:13:30 am »
I was able to load up all 16 channels of the logic analyzer and the 4 analog channels to examine an entire fault sequence on my power management product for the first time.
:scared:

That we MUST see. Screenshot please.  :)
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #50 on: July 26, 2016, 05:36:31 am »
I was able to load up all 16 channels of the logic analyzer and the 4 analog channels to examine an entire fault sequence on my power management product for the first time.
:scared:

That we MUST see. Screenshot please.  :)

I am planning a similar test on Thursday, I will try to take a few photos and screen shots. Kinda fun trying to get that much probing on a PCB barely the size of the palm of my hand.

Does anyone know of a way to save directly to a network location? I have been saving to USB, but network share would be kinda bonus awesome.
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #51 on: July 26, 2016, 05:43:57 am »
Going to get a bit preachy here  :blah: and suggest that just about everyone in this thread spend some significant time studying basic digital signal processing theory in general and Fourier transforms in particular.  It's a shame to see people criticize an incredibly awesome piece of gear because it doesn't support a "25Mpt FFT" or some other such ridiculousness. 

Good idea.  :-+ Most importantly, the inter-dependencies between FFT sample size, sample rate, BW and frequency resolution, for example

df = Fs/N   (df = frequency resolution; fs = sample frequency, N = number of acquired points)

and

fmax<fs/2     (fmax = upper BW limit)

In short, the frequency resolution ('RBW') is dependent on the acquisition time, which again depends on the size of the memory and the sample rate. Lower sample rates allow longer acquisition times but also come with reduced BW due to Nyquist-Shannon laws.

For FFT to capture the full analog BW (6GHz) the sample rate must be at least 12GSa/s, a step that (if I remember right) doesn't exist on the DSOX6004A, with the next available sample rate step being the max of 20GSa/s.

With a 1M FFT sample size, the scope can capture 50us, which gives it a frequency resolution ('RBW') of 20kHz. To go lower, i.e. to 10kHz, the sample rate must reduce (10GSa/s which is the next lower step), which reduces the usable BW to <5GHz, <2.5GHz (5kHz), <1.25GHz (2.5kHz) and so on.

With 25M FFT size, the full sample rate of 20GSa/s could be maintained down to an RBW of 800Hz.

It should now be clear why most high bandwidth scopes use long memory for FFT and why having 25Mpts or more for FFT isn't as ridiculous as you seem to think (modern high BW scopes can typically use >100M for FFT). Of course Keysight knows this, too, because all their high bandwidth Infiniium scopes can use long memory for FFT, and have been for ages (even my old DSO8064A with 4GSa/s and 1.2GHz real BW uses up to 32Mpts for FFT). The reason the DSOX6004 doesn't lies in the limitations of its MegaZoom ASIC and it's (comparably) slow platform.

It doesn't make the DSOX6004 a bad scope. It just means that looking at the frequency spectrum is important then I'd look for an alternative, i.e. a cheap SA.
 
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Offline memset

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #52 on: July 26, 2016, 07:32:16 pm »
What is the type pf ADC in 6000X? Is it the same 80-way interleaved 20 GSa/s ADC as used in previous generations?
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2016, 12:48:27 am »
Most importantly, the inter-dependencies between FFT sample size, sample rate, BW and frequency resolution, for example

Once you have all that  - I think you need some brutal computational power to be usably responsive. 
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2016, 02:53:35 am »
Most importantly, the inter-dependencies between FFT sample size, sample rate, BW and frequency resolution, for example

Once you have all that  - I think you need some brutal computational power to be usably responsive.

At some point, straight FFTs are no longer the preferred approach.  That point usually arrives well before you start crunching 25 million points.  :)
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2016, 05:23:55 am »
Most importantly, the inter-dependencies between FFT sample size, sample rate, BW and frequency resolution, for example

Once you have all that  - I think you need some brutal computational power to be usably responsive.

True, but scopes in this class usually come with very powerful processing backends.

At some point, straight FFTs are no longer the preferred approach.  That point usually arrives well before you start crunching 25 million points.  :)

No, it doesn't. Especially not with modern wideband signals. Good luck trying to capture a 100Mhz wide signal with your average swept SA (most of the better common SAs have a max RBW of 10 or so MHz, and while high end SAs can go to some 500MHz they cost a lot more than any of the scopes in question). A scope like the DSO-S can capture several GHz in adequate resolution. Modern SAs of course also come with FFT, but it's usually very limited in performance and memory compared to a modern high bandwidth scope.

Like many things the use of deep memory FFT depends on what you do but there are many situations where long FFT on a scope can be really helpful. Even if a good SA is available, because the typical swept SA isn't always the better tool.

Fast FFT with very large sample sizes certainly hasn't become standard in that class because there's no use for it (FFT is probably the most processing-intensive application on a modern scope, and I'm sure manufacturers would gladly save on expenditure for the required fast processing elements if 1Mpts on a low-end embedded platform was enough)  ;)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 08:58:59 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2016, 05:57:30 am »
Ah that is why the FFT on my old 6000 never looked all that good.

What I like about the FFT on the 9000 is that you just enter the RBW and span and the scope sets up the sample rate and memory size and all that for you. Makes it feel like you are using a SA instead of a scope. It also "sweeps" pretty fast as it updates faster than once per second with quite a few Mpts.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2016, 03:14:46 pm »
I just got my DSOX6004A today and it makes my 7000 series scope look small, LOL!
Here is a comparison shot.

But where do I find a setting to turn OFF the serial number displayed at the top of a screen shot
Why would I publish my Serial Number to a client, every time I send a screen shot.
What was Keysight thinking to implement this?
Or have I overlooked a setting, to turn it off?

Hmmmm

It is a very impressive scope.
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2016, 07:16:43 pm »
Saving a .PNG file to the USB drive is about twice as fast as with the 7000 Series scope
That is actually a very good improvement

Funny, the voice recognition does not like my weir German/English accent when set to American English.
But it works well in German.

So many things to play with!
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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2016, 07:52:18 pm »
JAVA control of the DSOX6000A works so well, I am really impressed.

There is so much to discover about this scope, it will take a few days to get to know it.



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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2016, 08:11:12 pm »
I am surprised how useful the voice control is. Initially, I tried it just for the sake of trying it. After just a few times where my hand were full and I could start/stop/single/zoom, etc, etc - awesome. It saves me from needing to setup probe holders.
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2016, 10:42:16 pm »
JAVA control of the DSOX6000A works so well, I am really impressed.

There is so much to discover about this scope, it will take a few days to get to know it.

I have not tried the java interface - how do you get to it? I used the HTML5, but it is screen only - no virtual panel.
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2016, 11:38:07 pm »
I just got my DSOX6004A today and it makes my 7000 series scope look small, LOL!
Here is a comparison shot.

But where do I find a setting to turn OFF the serial number displayed at the top of a screen shot
Why would I publish my Serial Number to a client, every time I send a screen shot.
What was Keysight thinking to implement this?
Or have I overlooked a setting, to turn it off?

Hmmmm

It is a very impressive scope.

And I thought the 7000 was big!

I don't think Agilent/Keysight necessarily used the screen real estate to its best capacity in either scope, but on the 7000 the fonts seem enormous because they use the same 1024x768 resolution with the same firmware on the 5000 and 6000 (non-x) which only have 6" or so displays. As a comparison, x6000 is only 800x600 resolution.

The waveform area itself is limited to the ASIC in each case, but the old 5000/6000/7000 have about 1000x630 pixels, and the new X series only about 640x400 for the x2000/x3000 or 640x480 for the x4000/x6000, both less than half the pixels of those older models.

In use though, somewhat counter intuitively, I don't particularly notice the drop in resolution between the 7000 and x3000 I use daily.

 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2016, 12:42:59 am »
I just got my DSOX6004A today and it makes my 7000 series scope look small, LOL!
Here is a comparison shot.

Are you able to say where you picked up your X6000? What type of work do you have in mind for it?
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Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2016, 06:11:34 am »

Are you able to say where you picked up your X6000? What type of work do you have in mind for it?

I am also interested in hearing it since these things don't run cheep.

The 9000 I have also slacks off in the resolution department. It's a pretty huge scope yet the screen is only 1024x768 like on the tiny screens of the old 5000 and 6000. Yes you can see the pixels, but it never bothers me, it can show enough detail on the waveform. The low resolution is actually a good thing because it has a touchscreen since this makes the UI elements big and easy to press(without using the scaling options in windows that sometimes break stuff)
 

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2016, 08:52:30 am »
I have not tried the java interface - how do you get to it? I used the HTML5, but it is screen only - no virtual panel.
1. Install JAVA
2. Configure JAVA with a security exception for the scope
3. Use your browser and log in to the IP address of the scope
4. Click on the "Browser Web Control button
5. Select "Full Scope Remote Front Panel"
6. Confirm to "run" Java
Done


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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2016, 09:03:26 am »
I just got my DSOX6004A today and it makes my 7000 series scope look small, LOL!
Here is a comparison shot.

Are you able to say where you picked up your X6000? What type of work do you have in mind for it?
Well, I have this new project and need to analyze high voltage spark discharge formation in the pico second range. Any good fast scope would have done the job. But this one was offered to me at such a low cost, that I could not say no and it will work perfectly for the job. I don't care for the MSO part, since I have the MSO7000B series scope for that.
But the serial bus decoding in the 6000x will be handy for an upcoming automotive CAN BUS project.

I played all night with this scope. It is that impressive!
The responses on all buttons and even on the touch screen are really amazing.
BenchVue v3.5 connects perfectly and also has a good response on controls.
This is a highly recommended scope.

 
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2016, 09:12:52 am »
The 9000 I have also slacks off in the resolution department. It's a pretty huge scope yet the screen is only 1024x768 like on the tiny screens of the old 5000 and 6000. Yes you can see the pixels, but it never bothers me, it can show enough detail on the waveform. The low resolution is actually a good thing because it has a touchscreen since this makes the UI elements big and easy to press(without using the scaling options in windows that sometimes break stuff)

Indeed, the large screen on the DSO9000 helps a lot. It was a huge improvement over the predecessor (DSO8000) which has the same resolution and essentially the same UI as a 9000 running XP but on a tiny 8.4" touch display, which makes the touch option useless unless you have toddler-sized fingers.

Also, a very high resolution is pretty pointless on an 8bit scope, at least as long as the pixel size doesn't get overly large and text is still crisp and easily readable. I've another scope with a 10.2" SVGA (800x600) screen but the resolution is fine because the UI is well designed and makes very good use of the screen area.


1. Install JAVA

I really wish that scope manufacturers would stop requiring Java for their remote control interfaces. These days there are better alternatives which don't require additional software on the client, especially none that has such a poor security track record as Java.

At least on the Infiniiums one can simply use RDP to remote control the scope.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 09:14:44 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2016, 09:31:55 am »
1. Install JAVA

I really wish that scope manufacturers would stop requiring Java for their remote control interfaces. These days there are better alternatives which don't require additional software on the client, especially none that has such a poor security track record as Java.

At least on the Infiniiums one can simply use RDP to remote control the scope.
I totally agree on the JAVA stuff.
Plus the first time you have to configure it, it is horrible
Plus JAVA wants to update as much as an Adobe flash player.

But for some reasons it worked well on the 6000X series scope
And the response from clicking a button on the screen to seeing it on the scope is visually instant!
I have separate lab PC, just for instrument connections and don't mind the Java stuff on that one. 
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2016, 09:46:36 am »
I totally agree on the JAVA stuff.
Plus the first time you have to configure it, it is horrible
Plus JAVA wants to update as much as an Adobe flash player.

Indeed. Which, considering who's behind Java these days (Oracle), isn't really surprising.

Quote
But for some reasons it worked well on the 6000X series scope
And the response from clicking a button on the screen to seeing it on the scope is visually instant!
I have separate lab PC, just for instrument connections and don't mind the Java stuff on that one.

For me that's an option at home but not at work. In addition, Java gets increasingly shunned by modern browsers (and that rightfully so), and this will only become worse in the future, meaning more workarounds and exceptions, potentially opening even more gaps.

A modern scope shouldn't require installing insecure software like Java on your PC. Keysight should really replace the Java interface with a modern HTML5 solution.
 

Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2016, 10:17:51 am »
Oh they still use Java for everything? It made sense on the web interface of the 6000 since back then Java was the only sensible way of doing it. But I don't remember it being all that snappy on the 6000, so at least they improved be aspect of it.

My method of doing it on the 9000 is installing Synergy on it and my PC so that I can just move my mouse over on to the scope as if it is a second screen. Provides nice bonuses of having a real keyboard and being able to take screenshots simply by hitting print screen and then paste on my PC straight in to word document or whatever.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2016, 02:14:07 pm »
Its HTML5 on my unit, but I think JAVA is still supported for older browsers.

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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2016, 02:20:18 pm »
Its HTML5 on my unit, but I think JAVA is still supported for older browsers.

Interesting. So you can get the virtual scope incl all buttons and screen without Java?

Maybe it was changed in a firmware update.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2016, 04:37:48 pm »
The only reason you ever needed Java was to run a browser-hosted VNC client.  You can use your own native VNC client as well.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #74 on: July 29, 2016, 08:18:01 pm »
Its HTML5 on my unit, but I think JAVA is still supported for older browsers.

Interesting. So you can get the virtual scope incl all buttons and screen without Java?

Maybe it was changed in a firmware update.

I believe the HTML5 only delivers the screen payload - I have not figured out how to get the full virtual panel. Not even sure if it is possible. Because its touchscreen - you can get to all the functions with mouse clicks on the screen, but the buttons are faster. For example, the RUN/STOP function is in the menu, but I would rather see the panel and click on that. Minor detail.

I do like the browser based screen capture and data save button a lot. Seems like a small thing, but I am able to set it up to save direct to a network location where all the test data already is. Much less cumbersome than USB stick. Beyond the banner spec of 6Ghz - they day to day bits of this scope are really fast and easy. They clearly prioritize operator speed which is why this box will help me make a living. My old Tek scope was just slow to operate in general and it was built before networked and USB capable instruments existed. All GPIB and very basic/cumbersome to save anything.

The REF waveforms are really handy. I can save a waveform and recall is to the screen and compare with live waveforms with only a few button pushes. That will be very handy to keep track of progress as I am working through prototypes.


One of the things I am trying to figure out is what options I have to program automated tests. Controlling the signal generators and capturing data. Maybe an externally controlled FRA program similar to the built in power app.I have Lab View, maybe I should use that. Guessing is will be far more responsive than my GPIB instruments.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #75 on: July 29, 2016, 08:20:33 pm »
Can you scale and zoom/move the reference traces afterwards?
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #76 on: July 29, 2016, 08:30:25 pm »
Move, yes..... scale? Have not tried, checking it out now.

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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #77 on: July 29, 2016, 09:06:54 pm »
So yes, the REF waveforms can be moved/scaled. The crazy thing is that the scope crashed (full re-boot) when I was playing around with the REF waveforms. Possible that a glitchy USB stick could cause it to happen, going to find a new memory stick to try. Full on crashing has my eyes popping out of my head!

EDIT: I switched to a different USB stick. The one in the machine is really old and beat up - maybe a driver issue, physical issue? The scope is not crashing with the new one, but every time with the old one.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 09:16:17 pm by rx8pilot »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #78 on: July 29, 2016, 09:21:26 pm »
So yes, the REF waveforms can be moved/scaled.
OK, so that is definitely an improved over the Agilent  DSO/MSO7000 series!
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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #79 on: July 29, 2016, 09:24:16 pm »
Could be some race condition in the USB device driver that shows up on a faulty USB memory stick.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #80 on: July 29, 2016, 10:45:55 pm »
So yes, the REF waveforms can be moved/scaled.
OK, so that is definitely an improved over the Agilent  DSO/MSO7000 series!
The mso7000B series scope does not have a ref waveform, right?
It does not even have a REF button
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #81 on: July 30, 2016, 12:22:54 am »
My DSO7104A has ref waveforms for sure. You have to juggle around a bit with saving and loading waveform data (save / recall waveform). But it is not very useful. You basically get a finite persistence trace which you can't move or scale at all.
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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #82 on: July 30, 2016, 12:41:43 am »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #83 on: July 30, 2016, 08:08:43 am »
But the reference trace is only what is on screen  :palm:
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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #84 on: July 30, 2016, 08:26:57 am »
Ahh, thanks for the explanation on the 7000b series scope ref waveform.

My old old Fluke/Philips PM3394B have a better Reference Waveform than any of these modern scopes. Kind of funny.
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #85 on: July 30, 2016, 12:24:37 pm »
But the reference trace is only what is on screen  :palm:

Yes, that's a bit daft. On the Infiniiums, when you save a trace, you're asked if you want to save the screen segment only or the whole trace in sample memory. You can also scale and move the stored traces.
 

Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #86 on: July 30, 2016, 12:36:55 pm »

Yes, that's a bit daft. On the Infiniiums, when you save a trace, you're asked if you want to save the screen segment only or the whole trace in sample memory. You can also scale and move the stored traces.

 :-+

I do love how the infiniium scopes do it. Save a trace in memory, assign it to a math operation with a live channel trace, hide all of them except the math trace and then use the controls to move around it live just like it was a regular analog channel trace. And if you like you can also do FFT on the entire memory at the same time inside a sepeware waveform window while you wander around the waveform.

Its only needed in very rare cases but when it is needed it's just heaven.

Edit: Oh and every memory or math channel has a checkbox to chose if you want that trace to follow the vertical and horizontal controls of the analog channel that it is assigned to.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 12:40:42 pm by Berni »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #87 on: July 30, 2016, 03:51:42 pm »
But the reference trace is only what is on screen  :palm:

Yes, that's a bit daft. On the Infiniiums, when you save a trace, you're asked if you want to save the screen segment only or the whole trace in sample memory. You can also scale and move the stored traces.
Perhaps Keysight is trying to force people to buy their (even) more expensive scopes but meanwhile the low end scopes already have way better features than what Keysight offers unless you go way north of $50k. My DSO7104A is a great scope (don't get me wrong) but it makes me grind my teeth when I see the many ways in which my cheap GW Instek DSO works better and has more features.
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Online Berni

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #88 on: July 30, 2016, 04:29:33 pm »
I don't think they are doing it on purpose. If you look back along the predecessors of the MSOX6000 you will notice they follow the same formula all the way back to the early ones with HP badges that used a green raster CRT for display. They have mostly the same menu structures and similar buttons on the front panel.

It appears that Keysight is simply sticking to a formula that works, upping the performance and adding a small feature or tweak here or there rather than making major changes Those scopes ware great instruments I will give them that, but the cheap Chinese competition is catching up fast.

A lot of modern companies are too risk averse. They rather do something that is proven to work and sell instead of inovating and risking the product might flop.
 

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #89 on: July 30, 2016, 06:00:56 pm »
Perhaps Keysight is trying to force people to buy their (even) more expensive scopes

I doubt that's the motivator (and the Infiniium DSO-S is in the same price class as the DSO-X6004). As Berni said this is how Keysight/Agilent/HP has done it on its predecessor embedded scopes before, and this was more likely down to limitations in the hardware (memory/processor performance). The reason why these things weren't an issue in the 4+GHz scope class is that in this segment you'd normally find full Windows scopes with abundance of memory and CPU power. It's only now when Keysight essentially put a fast ADC and a wide front end into what at the end of the day essentially is an entry-level/lower mid-range platform and put that into the high-end market (which is probably why the DSO-X6k sells so badly).

Quote
but meanwhile the low end scopes already have way better features than what Keysight offers unless you go way north of $50k. My DSO7104A is a great scope (don't get me wrong) but it makes me grind my teeth when I see the many ways in which my cheap GW Instek DSO works better and has more features.

I agree, but then don't forget that the DSOX platform is now going into its 5th year, and obviously since then the competition in the low-end/entry level market has caught up, with faster platforms and more memory. But the DSOX2k, 4k and especially the 3k still sell well, and as long as they do I guess Keysight doesn't see a point in coming up with really new InfiniiVision scopes.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 06:10:17 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Keysight MSOX-6004A Test to Impress Win
« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2016, 08:16:13 pm »
Some recent purchase of probes and an injection transformer will allow me to test drive the Power Application that is included with this scope. The hope is that I can avoid buying a dedicated Frequency Response Analyzer by getting a 'close enough' measurement with the scope. I still have a number of power projects to finish before I attempt any high-speed digital designs.

I purchased a LeCroy DA1855 100Mhz differential pre-amplifier for non-ground referenced measurements and very small signals common in the feedback loops of SMPS. It is also fantastic for measuring small and fast currents with sense resistors. I can use very small resistors and still get a measurment.
Looking for a second one of these, but I need to be patient for a reasonable deal.

2x DC current probes Tek A6302 20A 50Mhz with AM503B external amplifiers. These were a relative bargain as far as current probe go, but the amplifiers are massive. Considering I save a few $K, I will figure out how to arrange the bench for these.

2x 1:1 probes for looking at the small low frequency signals. Limited uses, but they will be handy periodically. Too cheap not to have them.

I am re-purposing a Jensen video transformer to use as an injection transformer similar to what Picotest and Ridley sell. The Pico transformer is $525 US - the Jensen is $18 on eBay. The bandwidth is not nearly as wide, but I don't need wide bandwidth as much as I need to save some money.

This should be a good start for measuring and analyzing SMPS, power distribution, eFuses, etc. The scopes FFT, power analysis tools, and dual channel function generator will allow reasonably advanced analysis with a single box. Seriously considering getting the Keysight Power Rail Probe N7020A http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2471132-pn-N7020A/power-rail-probe?cc=US&lc=eng
It is a relatively new design and not on the used market - may have to spring for full price on that one.

After that - high speed digital probes are next on my shopping list. The Agilent 1152A 2.5Ghz active single ended probes look like excellent day-to-day signal hunters and they are not expensive at all. Still a good distance from needing the full bandwidth 6Ghz probes which is good because those suckers are >$3k used EACH. I will look at those when I have a project starting so that I can have some revenue to cover the cost within a reasonable amount of time.
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