EXECTLY the same thing occurred to me today, except my scope was last used 3 months ago. Please let me know how Keysight handles this for you.
EXECTLY the same thing occurred to me today, except my scope was last used 3 months ago. Please let me know how Keysight handles this for you.
I plan on calling Keysight tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes.
I've found a number of other descriptions of this happening to people with MSOX3000 and MSOX4000 series scopes by doing a Google search. The common link between the incidents appears to be not using the scope for a period of several months. Why this should cause the scopes to not power up properly is beyond me. Perhaps there's some CMOS configuration memory that's kept alive by a rechargeable battery or supercap that discharges if the scope isn't used for a long period of time?
EXECTLY the same thing occurred to me today, except my scope was last used 3 months ago. Please let me know how Keysight handles this for you.
I plan on calling Keysight tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes.
I've found a number of other descriptions of this happening to people with MSOX3000 and MSOX4000 series scopes by doing a Google search. The common link between the incidents appears to be not using the scope for a period of several months. Why this should cause the scopes to not power up properly is beyond me. Perhaps there's some CMOS configuration memory that's kept alive by a rechargeable battery or supercap that discharges if the scope isn't used for a long period of time?
Seems to just be a bit or two in the NAND flash memory that decides to alter itself. Older firmware doesn't recover from the issue very well, newer firmware does. Scopes have a 3 year warranty and Keysight is pretty good with warranty repairs.
EXECTLY the same thing occurred to me today, except my scope was last used 3 months ago. Please let me know how Keysight handles this for you.
I plan on calling Keysight tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes.
I've found a number of other descriptions of this happening to people with MSOX3000 and MSOX4000 series scopes by doing a Google search. The common link between the incidents appears to be not using the scope for a period of several months. Why this should cause the scopes to not power up properly is beyond me. Perhaps there's some CMOS configuration memory that's kept alive by a rechargeable battery or supercap that discharges if the scope isn't used for a long period of time?
Seems to just be a bit or two in the NAND flash memory that decides to alter itself. Older firmware doesn't recover from the issue very well, newer firmware does. Scopes have a 3 year warranty and Keysight is pretty good with warranty repairs.
I wonder if there’s a way to force a firmware update if something like this happens?
I wonder if there’s a way to force a firmware update if something like this happens?
It can most likely be recovered if you have a network card by booting an image via network and then updating firmware. This has been covered in the 2000/3000 hacking thread for the most part. I've never done it with a T series scope, only the 2000a/3000a.
EXECTLY the same thing occurred to me today, except my scope was last used 3 months ago. Please let me know how Keysight handles this for you.
As an embedded engineer, if it were me designing a piece of equipment like this I would have implemented a fail-safe way to update the FW even if the FLASH gets corrupted and the unit won't boot. :-+
As an embedded engineer, if it were me designing a piece of equipment like this I would have implemented a fail-safe way to update the FW even if the FLASH gets corrupted and the unit won't boot. :-+
They did, in later version of firmware...
As an embedded engineer, if it were me designing a piece of equipment like this I would have implemented a fail-safe way to update the FW even if the FLASH gets corrupted and the unit won't boot. :-+
They did, in later version of firmware...
I'm talking about a hardware fail-safe here. A FW fix obviously doesn't help if there's no way to update the FW!
The bootloader is in NOR flash, it loads the primary image from the NAND flash, if that fails it goes to a second image - in newer firmware anyway. So most of the time a network boot can recover the scope, unless some of the truly unique info was lost - model/serial, cal data, licenses etc. The newer firmware also handles remapping bad blocks so that both images are correct/clean.
The bootloader is in NOR flash, it loads the primary image from the NAND flash, if that fails it goes to a second image - in newer firmware anyway. So most of the time a network boot can recover the scope, unless some of the truly unique info was lost - model/serial, cal data, licenses etc. The newer firmware also handles remapping bad blocks so that both images are correct/clean.
I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that you need to network boot vs normal boot to recover, or that recovery happens automatically, in which case what is the relevance of network boot? I have ethernet on this scope.
Just a quick update on Keysight's customer service. I just called, since they never called me back.
Bottom line, they will not assist, period. I'm on my own, 60 days out of warranty.
They denied knowing anything about 'corrupt nand', said there is no service note, and there is no 'known defect' of that type with any model.
When I asked about paid repair options, they demanded to see my origianl invoice, depsite purchasing the scope from Newark, and registering it with them the day it arrived, and purchasing numerous options that Keysight had to process.
Never again. A $5000 paperweight they refuse to repair. For what it's worth, don't tell them you are an individual, you MUST be a company if you want decent customer service. The moment I told them I had no company name, this was my personal scope, their attitude immediately changed from eager to help to suspicion. What the hell happened to Keysight?
GlowingGhoul, perhaps you should mention where you are based. Someone, probably Daniel, from Keysight will eventually see this or be pointed to it. They'd need to know where you are from so the arse kicking can commence.
Assuming it is a NAND corruption issue(likely) then hopefully Keysight will fix it for free. If they won't do it free then I am 99% sure I can help you recover it.
You just might want to follow this:Assuming it is a NAND corruption issue(likely) then hopefully Keysight will fix it for free. If they won't do it free then I am 99% sure I can help you recover it.
I appreciate that. If they come back with a large repair quote, as I expect, I'll still have to pay $311 to get the scope back. Hopefully I can get it running again so I can sell it and move on to another brand.
As an embedded engineer, if it were me designing a piece of equipment like this I would have implemented a fail-safe way to update the FW even if the FLASH gets corrupted and the unit won't boot. :-+
They did, in later version of firmware...
It is more likely the original error correction isn't good enough to catch a few bit flips.Of course, that doesn't help you if the fail-safe part of the NAND also gets corrupted ...As an embedded engineer, if it were me designing a piece of equipment like this I would have implemented a fail-safe way to update the FW even if the FLASH gets corrupted and the unit won't boot. :-+
They did, in later version of firmware...
I should say (before it's engraved in stone somewhere) that this no-boot free repair isn't necessarily going to be around forever and ever (we have no plans to remove it) and IT DOESN'T APPLY TO EVERY SCOPE MODEL! Right now, it's just for the 2k, 3k, and 4k scopes that were shipped prior to 2016.
bgsd isn't entitled to anything. Keysight is living up to the terms of his warranty. For a little extra he could have gotten the insurance that would have covered him outside of the warranty but didn't.
That's not Keysight's fault. They owe him nothing.
Funny thing is as I was re-reading it I saw GlowingGhoul was well aware of the issue and not so full of sympathy:bgsd isn't entitled to anything. Keysight is living up to the terms of his warranty. For a little extra he could have gotten the insurance that would have covered him outside of the warranty but didn't.
That's not Keysight's fault. They owe him nothing.
Karma is a bitch...
Admittedly his situation was more complex than yours, but I'll stand by the comparison to someone with an out-of warranty situation who didn't choose to pay the "insurance" of the extended service contract.
I'm not trying to tear you down, and I'm sorry that you took it that way. I really do hope you get your scope fixed for free.
Of course, that doesn't help you if the fail-safe part of the NAND also gets corrupted ...It is more likely the original error correction isn't good enough to catch a few bit flips.
Admittedly his situation was more complex than yours, but I'll stand by the comparison to someone with an out-of warranty situation who didn't choose to pay the "insurance" of the extended service contract.
I don't need an imagination to analyze this situation.
Your equipment failed many months after the warranty expired. You believe you're entitled to a free repair or replacement despite the clear warranty terms and the ability to buy an inexpensive extended warranty. You took a chance and lost, now you cry like a spoiled brat.
Instead of taking the lesson of your stupidity, you want to make Keysight the bad actor.
Right now, it's just for the 2k, 3k, and 4k scopes that were shipped prior to 2016.
Upgrade to the latest firmware. They've been incorporating measures to minimize the chances of corruption preventing a boot.I've already been using the latest firmware for a year. Since DSOX3000T are also affected, the newer firmware obviously is not a miracle cure. Possibly a time bomb is sleeping in all DSOX scopes. Hence my question about the possibility to exchange the NAND chip.
As with all electronics, we can't guarantee that it'll be trouble free forever. But, the new NAND protection in our firmware is orders of magnitude more reliable than previous versions (internal data backs up that claim).
As with all electronics, we can't guarantee that it'll be trouble free forever. But, the new NAND protection in our firmware is orders of magnitude more reliable than previous versions (internal data backs up that claim).
I wonder how the original design made it through the design review process? This is really a rhetorical question as I wouldn't expect you to know.
I bought this scope directly from Keysight, so I'm also wondering why they didn't notify me via email (they had my address from the order) to update the FW? I've gotten written notices from car companies every time they have a recall (and some of these were merely annoying issues, not just safety-related issues)--perhaps Keysight should do something similar.
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