Author Topic: Keysight New instruments  (Read 34873 times)

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #125 on: February 28, 2021, 04:45:54 pm »
Yes. If a scope is deep enough I like to stack equipment on top.

If only somebody could invent "adjustable shelving".

Better patent that idea quick.

As for stacking I never really liked it because the minute you need to pull an instrument or just move it around you run into a lot of frustration.   A shelf per layer might not work in every case but it is simple to implement.   I can imagine though people not wanting to spend $100 on shelving to place their $20 000 of equipment on.
Shelving isn't ideal either due to varying equipment height and depth. I usually build stacks of equipment dedicated for a project (partly due to not having room for shelves). And sometimes re-shuffling the stack of equipment is necessary.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #126 on: February 28, 2021, 04:49:41 pm »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #127 on: February 28, 2021, 05:14:42 pm »
Actually I do want better CAT ratings on bench meters.   I may be 60 but I still remember the stupid things students do in tech classes.   The idea that they are marketing this as a solution for education is what prompted my post.

Students do a lot a crazy things. It is even easier in Europe then in the US: the standard 4 mm plugs nicely fit many European power outlets.
So it is a good thing they introduced the fixed shrouded plugs, especially for educational use.

It makes some sense to have at least some 300 V CAT II rating, but not much more really needed.
A much higher rating can get quite expensive as it may require special relays instead of the more normal ones.

A not so high CAT rating also allows for cheaper fuses, which may be an issue for use with students.


The new DMM format may not replace the old 34450 - just an alternative in a different form factor. So one has the choice, depending on the space available and use. Not so sure the 34450 is that popular with automated setups, as it is not that much cheaper than a 34460 or similar.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #128 on: February 28, 2021, 06:41:16 pm »
Bench multimeters have low (common-mode) isolation voltage to their mains power, due to the power transformer.
It looks like the EDU34450A has a linear PSU for lower noise floor, there's a mains power transformer in there. The MCU noise in the 34461A is quite noticeable though.

If I was designing mains SMPS using these multimeters, they would have a short life. They autorange down to mV and get hit with say 370VDC and click clank clunk relays with auto-ranging. So the input stage gets multiple overloads every time. This is differential-mode I am referring to. Then the mux/JFET's get killed and it's a $500 repair bill for the $725 product.
 

Online Berni

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #129 on: February 28, 2021, 08:00:06 pm »
I don't think a really high CAT rating is all that important for such an educational bench DMM.

It has to not explode being plugged into the 230V mains outlet and that is it. If any high voltages are used in the experiment the stuff is generally covered under some plastic, shrouded banana jacks used etc... because they know some of the students are stupid and will not pay attention to what they are doing. If high voltages at such high currents are used to require the proper high CAT rating meters then they REALLY should not leave students to mess with it unattended. But a mains outlet, any decent name brand DMM will take that without exploding and harming the user.

The overall robustness of the meter is more important id say. It must survive having 230V shoved into it for any combination of input connections and measurement modes. Sure it might blow a fuse on mA or A but once replaced it should continue to work fine.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #130 on: February 28, 2021, 08:07:16 pm »
If I was designing mains SMPS using these multimeters, they would have a short life. They autorange down to mV and get hit with say 370VDC and click clank clunk relays with auto-ranging. So the input stage gets multiple overloads every time. This is differential-mode I am referring to. Then the mux/JFET's get killed and it's a $500 repair bill for the $725 product.
Do you really think that the maximum voltage is only allowed in the least sensitive range? That would be an utterly stupid design! DMM designers are smarter than that. The high input impedance alone makes that even at 1000V at the input the amount of energy getting into the input circuitry is minimal and can't do any damage.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #131 on: February 28, 2021, 09:06:57 pm »
My preferred style would be "short half-rack". Like, Siglent stuff. It nicely fits my table, stackable, and not too deep.

For power supply and signal generator yes, but a scope?
Yes. If a scope is deep enough I like to stack equipment on top.

Makes it a big empty box, when the reason it is big is just to have a display?
 

Offline ResistorRob

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #132 on: February 28, 2021, 10:11:07 pm »
I didn't realize it was a fashion show!
If you want 6.5 digits, BK has the 5493C.  I don't know where you are looking at prices, but the 5493C will be more than the GW-Instek--it's twice as accurate.

Why do people in construction spend $50,000 on a new truck when a $10,000 will do the same thing? Or pay extra for nicer wheels, nicer paint, or other unnecessary things? An Ugly Pontiac Aztec will get you from point A to point B, but 99% of people wouldn't want one. I suspect you are in the 1% that would and don't understand aesthetic appeal. I do electronics for fun and having my bench be visually appealing just adds to the enjoyment. I do see beauty in a lot of vintage test equipment but that Fluke meter is just hideous.

The Instek GDM-9061 is 6.5 digit count with 0.0035% accuracy and costs $807 at tequipment.net. BK 5493C is also 6.5 digits and 0.0035% accuracy and costs $834 at the same vendor. So you are mistaken that the BK is cheaper and more accurate. Both have comparable features such as histogram and trending.

Don't get your feelings hurt because one person doesn't like one of your suggestions. I tend to be way more visual than your average person and went my gear to look as nice as well as it functions, so I understand it might be hard to wrap your head around if you are more old school and just want something that works and could care less about what the thing looks like. Thanks for your suggestions, but they just aren't what fits my personal requirements.

Back on topic... being the visual person that I am I really love these new Keysight products. The prices seem good for what you get with the exception of the function gen. At a minimum I think I will definitely pull the trigger on that power supply.
For my 10th Birthday I got a Fisher Price oscilloscope!
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #133 on: February 28, 2021, 10:35:32 pm »
Actually I do want better CAT ratings on bench meters.   I may be 60 but I still remember the stupid things students do in tech classes.   The idea that they are marketing this as a solution for education is what prompted my post.

However in industry, at least the one i work in, "bench" meters do go out onto the plant floor very regularly.   In this case they are either used for calibration+validation or in some cases diagnostics.   Generally they should never get close to high energy circuits but it does happen.   Recent enforcement of regulations for arc flash safety has equipment coming in such that the process control stuff is separated from the heavy 3 phase stuff, usually in separate cabinets.  That makes the meter use "safer" but a better CAT rating would be very welcomed. 

Further if you are at the bench you may have three phase hardware you are working on.   This honestly doesn't happen much today due to the lack of time which leads to a lot of "stuff" going into the recycle bin.   I'm not real thrilled about this but there is little I can do about staffing because personnel says they can't find candidates.

As for safety I'm not sure how it became a specialty need.   Also fused connections are not a guarantee of safety.   I've seen some strange things over the years when it comes to what appeared to be properly installed hardware.
For starters its the fuses. A HRC fuse is more expensive. And the enclosure is different. If a fuse blows up in a multimeter, which is in your hand, you might loose a finger. If it blows up in a desktop DMM, worst case you might need to change the pants.
Its much worse, that they might melt the isolation of leads or set them on fire before any of the fuse would act.

And there are practical reasons for this. Unlike a 3.5 digit DMM, here we are dealing with precision. It's only 5.5 digits, but it comes from the same family as the 6.5 and 7.5 digit Agilents. Its entirely possible that there is tradeoff between accuracy and safety, and I give you an example.
Take an ordinary relay, and try to measure 100 mv with it. When you do that with a 6.5 digit DMM, you realize that the energized coil will heat up the connection of the relay, and you have a bunch of tiny thermocouples everywhere  in it. You can either use a latching relay (not safe), Analog switch of FET to switch the signal (not safe), wet contact mercury relays (kills polar bears, somehow) or high end relays that dont fit in the budget.

Students do a lot a crazy things. It is even easier in Europe then in the US: the standard 4 mm plugs nicely fit many European power outlets.
Isn't it that way by design?

I can appreciate the new kind of housing, it saves a lot of space on the workbench (depth).
Prices are better for hobby purposes but what when Keysight doesn't sell to private persons anymore...
Thats what distributors are for.

I didn't realize it was a fashion show!
If you want 6.5 digits, BK has the 5493C.  I don't know where you are looking at prices, but the 5493C will be more than the GW-Instek--it's twice as accurate.
just out of curiosity, who is going to calibrate that meter for you? Just as an example, the 34465A has 2 year specification, so you need to calibrate it half as often (if you can live with the accuracy). So while it might cost more, at 3 or 5 years, the cost breaks even.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #134 on: February 28, 2021, 10:35:45 pm »
If I was designing mains SMPS using these multimeters, they would have a short life. They autorange down to mV and get hit with say 370VDC and click clank clunk relays with auto-ranging. So the input stage gets multiple overloads every time. This is differential-mode I am referring to. Then the mux/JFET's get killed and it's a $500 repair bill for the $725 product.
Do you really think that the maximum voltage is only allowed in the least sensitive range? That would be an utterly stupid design! DMM designers are smarter than that. The high input impedance alone makes that even at 1000V at the input the amount of energy getting into the input circuitry is minimal and can't do any damage.
Adding protection degrades the DMM's specs with the added diode leakage current, resistance (PTC), TVS capacitance.
You can't measure to 100MEG or 1pF with those parts there. For this reason, bench DMM's have less/weaker protection than good handhelds.

Typically the input goes first to the mechanical relays, a series gas-tube (1,500V) + MOV (1,100VC) for ESD protection, then for Lo-DCV range ~100k ohm resistor directly to the CMOS range switch IC/op-amp. High DCV range has the 9.9MEG resistor after the relays. It's pretty much cookie-cutter front-end protection in Keysight/Agilent/HP and Keithley bench multimeters.
So the protection is the clamp-diodes on the CMOS mux or the op-amp with a 100k ohm resistor, should work right?

Nobody has the guts or cash to put one of these through reasonable (true?) overload testing.
Assuming the relay/CMOS mux switching and timing is flawless, you need to do +ve, -ve overload while changing functions and ranges to test for 100% coverage.
I've seen with a DMM as part of ATE connected to a mux, it is common for the (i.e. Labview) program to halt due to some exception or just crappy programming.
So you'd have the DMM sitting on ohms function but the mux is left at another pogo pin with HV -DC on it and then the DMM dies. The Ohms current-source can have weak protection on some models/makes of bench meters.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #135 on: February 28, 2021, 10:38:59 pm »
I didn't realize it was a fashion show!
If you want 6.5 digits, BK has the 5493C.  I don't know where you are looking at prices, but the 5493C will be more than the GW-Instek--it's twice as accurate.

Why do people in construction spend $50,000 on a new truck when a $10,000 will do the same thing? Or pay extra for nicer wheels, nicer paint, or other unnecessary things? An Ugly Pontiac Aztec will get you from point A to point B, but 99% of people wouldn't want one.
That is because you'd also have to wear this hat:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #136 on: February 28, 2021, 10:41:08 pm »
We know nothing of the price point for these new Keysight instruments? The playing field has a lot of competition now.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2021, 10:57:57 pm by floobydust »
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #137 on: February 28, 2021, 10:53:20 pm »
So you'd have the DMM sitting on ohms function but the mux is left at another pogo pin with HV -DC on it and then the DMM dies. The Ohms current-source can have weak protection on some models/makes of bench meters.
Yeah, you remember, when you could program the BNC on the back to be input complete? Now it's just "VM comp".
And honestly, I dont get it why we lost that functionality. It's probably just laziness, or nobody at keysight actually used a 3458A themselves.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #138 on: February 28, 2021, 11:20:45 pm »
The 34450 is a rather different construction that the 6 digit Keysight meters. It uses an SD ADC chip, like most modern meters in this range. The high Z mode is only up to 1.2 V.
This can be a rather simple construction. The internals are likely more similar to the Sigilent SDM3055 or maybe even a handheld than to a Keysight 34460. For 5.5 digits the SD ADC chips are well good enough and they are cheap and low power and they interface nice with 2.5 V to 5 V reference chips. It is more that a similar design could be upgared to a low end 6 digit meter.

The AC mode also seems to be with a classic RMS chip and not Keysight's true volt digital RMS.
The main similarity to the 6 digit ones maybe the case and some software parts - though for some reason even the screen is different.
 
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #139 on: March 01, 2021, 04:07:09 am »
Why do people in construction spend $50,000 on a new truck when a $10,000 will do the same thing? Or pay extra for nicer wheels, nicer paint, or other unnecessary things? An Ugly Pontiac Aztec will get you from point A to point B, but 99% of people wouldn't want one. I suspect you are in the 1% that would and don't understand aesthetic appeal. I do electronics for fun and having my bench be visually appealing just adds to the enjoyment. I do see beauty in a lot of vintage test equipment but that Fluke meter is just hideous.

The Instek GDM-9061 is 6.5 digit count with 0.0035% accuracy and costs $807 at tequipment.net. BK 5493C is also 6.5 digits and 0.0035% accuracy and costs $834 at the same vendor. So you are mistaken that the BK is cheaper and more accurate. Both have comparable features such as histogram and trending.

Don't get your feelings hurt because one person doesn't like one of your suggestions. I tend to be way more visual than your average person and went my gear to look as nice as well as it functions, so I understand it might be hard to wrap your head around if you are more old school and just want something that works and could care less about what the thing looks like. Thanks for your suggestions, but they just aren't what fits my personal requirements.

Back on topic... being the visual person that I am I really love these new Keysight products. The prices seem good for what you get with the exception of the function gen. At a minimum I think I will definitely pull the trigger on that power supply.

I was simply responding to your stated desire to acquire a reasonably priced meter that would last a long time.  I'm not a Fluke or BK Precision salesman.  I'm not oblivious to aesthetics in general, but I find your apparent revulsion at the appearance of a rather ordinary Fluke DMM to be a bit hysterical, thus my amusement.  "Egads, get that hideous thing off my bench!"  What is it that provokes such a reaction? Is it the light earth tones?  The 'dated' 7-segment VFD?  Is it too square?  I guess I sort of combine aesthetics, ergonomics and function when I think about tools.  A good looking display to me is one I can see clearly.  What looks good to you? 

Just to be accurate, I never said the BK was 'cheaper' than anything else.  As you've noted, it is more expensive than even the GW Instek that seems to be closest to it in specs, although I'd read those specs pretty carefully before I came to any conclusions.  Just be aware as you are shopping that my experience with other models from Instek and BK (I haven't seen either of these two in person) is that in real life they will underperform models from HPAK and Fluke with the same or even worse specs.  That doesn't necessarily make them a bad value.   

And as far as my feelings being hurt, they weren't until you suggested I would be caught dead driving an Aztek.  That's a low blow!

« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 04:52:28 am by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #140 on: March 01, 2021, 05:35:04 am »
[...]
And as far as my feelings being hurt, they weren't until you suggested I would be caught dead driving an Aztek.  That's a low blow!

It could be worse - he could have accused you of liking the Fiat Multipla!


 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #141 on: March 01, 2021, 06:13:27 am »
[...]
And as far as my feelings being hurt, they weren't until you suggested I would be caught dead driving an Aztek.  That's a low blow!

It could be worse - he could have accused you of liking the Fiat Multipla!



I like this Aston Martin Lagonda

 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #142 on: March 01, 2021, 06:16:44 am »
We know nothing of the price point for these new Keysight instruments? The playing field has a lot of competition now.

Go a few pages back, prices and user manuals posted.
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #143 on: March 01, 2021, 06:39:45 am »
I like this Aston Martin Lagonda


Looks like a prop from 'Thunderbirds'.   :D
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #144 on: March 01, 2021, 12:40:07 pm »
I like this Aston Martin Lagonda

Would make a better platform for a time machine than a DeLorean:



 

Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #145 on: March 01, 2021, 05:52:33 pm »
The estate version looks like it'd be doing a wheelie all the way home from a hamfest.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #146 on: March 01, 2021, 05:55:23 pm »
The estate version looks like it'd be doing a wheelie all the way home from a hamfest.

Nah, they have a *huge* engine in the front as a counterwieght for the valuables.
 
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Online Berni

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #147 on: March 01, 2021, 06:46:15 pm »
The estate version looks like it'd be doing a wheelie all the way home from a hamfest.

Nah, they have a *huge* engine in the front as a counterwieght for the valuables.

Still don't underestimate the weight of old dinosaur test gear and giant RF amplifiers with real iron transformers.
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #148 on: March 01, 2021, 08:23:42 pm »
We know nothing of the price point for these new Keysight instruments? The playing field has a lot of competition now.
Go a few pages back, prices and user manuals posted.
Sorry I was distracted at the wheel. To recap the list prices of these new instruments:
EDU33212A Dual Channel Function Generator; USD $915
EDU36311A DC Power Supply; USD $838
EDU34450A Digital Multimeter; USD $696
EDUX1052G Dual Channel Oscilloscope; USD $722

New Aston Martin Lagonda planned production this year...
The old one nice in green, pop up headlights and all digital dash, flat switches. I actually like it when designers can go futuristic - have fun, create/innovate, think outside the corporate box. Steve Jobs did it as well.
Yes it has some non-chicken dinner aspects but these ventures nonetheless are a step forward.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Keysight New instruments
« Reply #149 on: March 01, 2021, 08:39:31 pm »
I *think* they moved to CRT screens for the Lagonda, they were at least experimenting with them when I visited.
 


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