Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

[mikeselectricstuff]

I didn't realize it before, but Keysight explicitly disclaims all warranties on equipment sold to individuals.  See above.  I just went over their terms of sale (https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9018-60029/exhibits/9018-60029.pdf) and the implications of the wording of paragraph 7(j) is clear: resellers must ensure that they sell only to entities that will use the equipment for professional or industrial use, because if they don't do so then they can't warrant that the intended use is for that only, and such use nullifies the warranty terms.  This means resellers can and almost certainly will refuse warranty service to individuals! And the reason is clear: they can't get reimbursement for a warranty claim if it's from an individual.

It's not just about warranty, it basically forces resellers to sell Keysight products only to companies and to ignore consumers (hobbyists/makers/students).

Keysight claims that it is a condition of their reseller agreements that they only sell to businesses. Farnell have this buried in their terms but they don't enforce it.

The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.

However from the RS website :

2.5  RS is a business-to-business supplier. The RS website is intended for use by business customers and not by private individuals acting as consumers (“Consumers”). Notwithstanding the foregoing, nothing in these terms and conditions shall affect the mandatory rights of a customer who deals as a Consumer.

Which seems clear to me - they explicitly acknowledge that consumers may buy Keysight products from RS and will have all normal consumer rights.

[xrunner]

Here's one definition -

Consumer goods are products that people buy and don’t use to make other things that are then sold. We can also call them final goods because when somebody buys them, they have reached their final destination.

https://marketbusinessnews.com/financial-glossary/consumer-goods/

[bdunham7]

Consumer goods are products that people buy and don’t use to make other things that are then sold. We can also call them final goods because when somebody buys them, they have reached their final destination.

That's the definition of an end-user, whether you consider all end-users to be consumers is another matter.  I don't think Southwest Airlines is considered a 'consumer' when they buy a new 737MAX, but they are an end-user.

[tautech]

Here's one definition -

Consumer goods are products that people buy and don’t use to make other things that are then sold. We can also call them final goods because when somebody buys them, they have reached their final destination.

https://marketbusinessnews.com/financial-glossary/consumer-goods/

Which seems to exclude those in the repair business if they are sole operators which is shortsighted.

[xrunner]

Oh that's just one definition I found. It's like the old joke about "standards". The nice thing about standards is there are so many to choose from. 

[coppice]

I don't know if this is still the practice, but back in the HP days if a private individual sent an instrument to HP for repair, they assumed something was amiss and checked who they thought the owner of that serial number should be. I remember stolen instruments getting returned to the rightful owning company that way (those individuals had innocently bought used equipment, which turned out to have been stolen by a rogue employee). However, I also remember legitimate instruments bought second hand by individuals where they had a fight to get their equipment back, because HP were eager to return the instrument to the original owner in their records.

[vk6zgo]

Consumer goods are products that people buy and don’t use to make other things that are then sold. We can also call them final goods because when somebody buys them, they have reached their final destination.

That's the definition of an end-user, whether you consider all end-users to be consumers is another matter.  I don't think Southwest Airlines is considered a 'consumer' when they buy a new 737MAX, but they are an end-user.

Or a large retail chain buying cash registers or EFTPOS readers.
They don't use them to "make anything, just to enable them to provide a service to their customers.

Is a plumber a "consumer" if he buys equipment to install in a customer's home, discovers it is faulty & requests warranty repair or replacement a consumer or reseller?
What if he is installing it in his own home?

It sounds like "going down the rabbit hole!"

In any case, TE, by definition has no other use than "professional or industrial use".

Much of the "engineering" work done in industry is done by Technicians or Tech Officers, not EEs, so is a hobbyist (currentlyemployed as, or may be employable as, either an EE  or Technician) who tests or repairs something with test equipment, even if that thing is not going to be sold on, a "consumer" in the same sense as someone buying an "X-Box".

How about a Physicist or Chemist in a University?(certainly professional)

[kcbrown]

However from the RS website :

2.5  RS is a business-to-business supplier. The RS website is intended for use by business customers and not by private individuals acting as consumers (“Consumers”). Notwithstanding the foregoing, nothing in these terms and conditions shall affect the mandatory rights of a customer who deals as a Consumer.

Which seems clear to me - they explicitly acknowledge that consumers may buy Keysight products from RS and will have all normal consumer rights.

Then with respect to Keysight, they are in breach of contract (assuming the document I linked to is the contract they adhere to) if they sell Keysight equipment to a "consumer", because Keysight's contract says that the reseller (i.e., RS) warrants to Keysight that the equipment will be used only for professional or industrial purposes.

[SHF]

Batronix Germany ended the business relationship with Keysight at the end of the year!

[HighVoltage]

Batronix Germany ended the business relationship with Keysight at the end of the year!

Why would they do that ?

[Oldtestgear]

I started the thread about keysight refusing to calibrate my 34470A DMM as I had retired. I am still irritated by their attitude but the solution for UK customers is simple & costs £12. Register your own limited company with companies House & then hit Keysight with your company Reistration number. Result? My DMM was calibrated with no great hassle plus they gave me credit ( pro forma only as an individual) PLUS 2% discount if I paid within 14 days.
A company can spend years assessing how to trade & is NOT required to register with HMRC until it actually starts to trade. The old saying "don't get mad, get even" fits perfectly.

FWIW

Phil

[Pinkus]

Batronix Germany ended the business relationship with Keysight at the end of the year!

Why would they do that ?

Probably it is the way around: Keysight ended the business with Batronix 

[TwistedTransistor]

I started the thread about keysight refusing to calibrate my 34470A DMM as I had retired. I am still irritated by their attitude but the solution for UK customers is simple & costs £12. Register your own limited company with companies House & then hit Keysight with your company Reistration number. Result? My DMM was calibrated with no great hassle plus they gave me credit ( pro forma only as an individual) PLUS 2% discount if I paid within 14 days.
A company can spend years assessing how to trade & is NOT required to register with HMRC until it actually starts to trade. The old saying "don't get mad, get even" fits perfectly.

FWIW

Phil

Interesting. There are reports above that Keysight have refused to deal with limited companies who are not VAT registered.

You can keep a limited company dormant but the moment it receives income which would probably include transferring in an asset with some residual value, or carries on any "business activity" (whatever that means) then you are meant to register for corporation tax and submit full accounts each year. And of course VAT registration brings a whole extra level of headache as you then need to submit quarterly VAT returns. I recently closed a company as I'd had enough of all that.

Still it's interesting that Keysight still dealt with you even without a VAT number.

[mikeselectricstuff]

You can keep a limited company dormant but the moment it receives income which would probably include transferring in an asset with some residual value, or carries on any "business activity" (whatever that means) then you are meant to register for corporation tax and submit full accounts each year.

But if the Ltd company is solely to provide a number to box-tick Keysight's process, any payments can be made from a personal account/card and not through the company.

[JohanH]

Good to know whom to avoid. It's a shame, thinking on all past great HP and Agilent products.

[Nominal Animal]

If they were forced to follow consumer protection laws, they would probably lose money on every darned sale in legal fees.

I like how you think.  "If you cannot make a profit by abiding the law, it is okay to break the law."
Ordinary people like me tend to think that one needs to price the product so that one can make a profit even when abiding by the local laws.

End Sarcasm.

In the EU, the manufacturer is liable for manufacturing defects in the product by law, and cannot escape that liability via any kind of shrink-wrapped clause.  Simply put, if they ever deny warranty for one of their products in the EU that does have an actual manufacturing defect (say, dead on arrival), and that person has the werewithal to raise the issue in courts, then Keysight is in trouble.  Especially if they bother showing the courts the Youtube videos and promotions by Daniel Bogdanovich et al.

I'd say someone very high up in Keysight has made a big, big policy oopsie here.

[JohanH]

Especially if they bother showing the courts the Youtube videos and promotions by Daniel Bogdanovich et al.
I'd say someone very high up in Keysight has made a big, big policy oopsie here.

This is really awkward. Keysight's videos and actions tell conflicting messages to people.

[Nominal Animal]

Consider what might ensue if the EU consumer protection agency decided that Keysight is targeting EU consumers in their marketing efforts, but attempting to use sales language to avoid abiding by EU consumer laws and protections; and that if not made an example, other, even larger companies might follow suit.

[ve7xen]

Curious on a bit of a different angle here. Why do most of these consumer protection laws not protect corporate customers? Should I, as a business, not also be entitled to a warranty etc. on products that I purchase? If something is DoA I'm just...SOL by default?? What is the logic of this, I'm not really seeing it.

[bdunham7]

Curious on a bit of a different angle here. Why do most of these consumer protection laws not protect corporate customers? Should I, as a business, not also be entitled to a warranty etc. on products that I purchase? If something is DoA I'm just...SOL by default?? What is the logic of this, I'm not really seeing it.

The theory is that a business customer has enough knowledge and power to qualify merchandise and negotiate terms and conditions on their own--and to sue if there is a breach of contract--whereas the consumer does not.

[kaz911]

I think legally Keysight is on thin ice with their policy.

They are selling their products on eBay - and eBay is mainly considered a C2C/B2C website - targeted at the group Keysight does not want to service - aka end users and consumers.

But I have started clearing out my Keysight gear - they do not seem creator friendly any longer.

Many a garage firm has been started without a registred company behind it - just like HP got started many years ago. So it is rather "fun" to think that Keysight would not sell or service equipment bought by Bill & Dave in 1938.

[Sal Ammoniac]

That's a different scenario. Usually, "Recall = dangerous". Companies will do anything and at all costs to replace recalled parts in order to avoid further troubles (i.e lawsuits).

Not necessarily. They probably do an economic analysis that goes something like this: "If we recall those 2 million cars it'll cost us $200 million. If we pay off the families of the 50 fatalities caused by the fault it'll only cost us $50 million. Right, let's go with option 2!"

[0culus]

I think legally Keysight is on thin ice with their policy.

They are selling their products on eBay - and eBay is mainly considered a C2C/B2C website - targeted at the group Keysight does not want to service - aka end users and consumers.

But I have started clearing out my Keysight gear - they do not seem creator friendly any longer.

Many a garage firm has been started without a registred company behind it - just like HP got started many years ago. So it is rather "fun" to think that Keysight would not sell or service equipment bought by Bill & Dave in 1938.

Yeah. They are not the same company Bill and Dave started. That's for damn sure.

[floobydust]

How is this progress, today Bill and Dave not being able to be entrepreneurs and purchase test equipment to work on their HP200 in the garage?
This whole thing stinks of either corporate having an @sshole executive or something the lawyers spewed out as coverage for nothing of any significance.

Keysight revamped their website this summer, anyone tried it out?
“Keysight’s goal is to create an integrated multi-channel transactional ecosystem that offers customers an effortless purchasing experience via coexistence of eCommerce and distribution,” stated Kari Fauber, senior director of Global Partners and eCommerce at Keysight Technologies.

The website assumes you're a child and has no spirit of the customer, it's main purpose is to extract cash from the customer.
I didn't get far trying to see what firmware is the latest for products.
I dare anyone to try submit a product software bug without being demoralized. "Oh you don't understand that feature", "it must be user error", "it needs repair send it in"
I dare anyone to try submit a website bug/bad URL. I'm in Canada and it's convinced we're all French language up here.

[pope]

That's a different scenario. Usually, "Recall = dangerous". Companies will do anything and at all costs to replace recalled parts in order to avoid further troubles (i.e lawsuits).

Not necessarily. They probably do an economic analysis that goes something like this: "If we recall those 2 million cars it'll cost us $200 million. If we pay off the families of the 50 fatalities caused by the fault it'll only cost us $50 million. Right, let's go with option 2!"

Would you buy a car from a company that one of their models caused 50 fatalities because they chose not to recall some part(s)? Also, is it even legal for the company not to do so? Doesn't sound like an option for the company to me.