Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

[xrunner]

Yeah. They are not the same company Bill and Dave started. That's for damn sure.

Previously I states that it wouldn't do any good to respond to Keysight Ebay after their answer to my inquiry, because they wouldn't acknowledge anything was wrong or should be reconsidered about the policy. But in order to prove it to myself I did it anyway. I sent this back Dec 12 -

New message to: keysight

Well, that policy is a shame. It's pretty sad if a person that is an engineer (I'm a retired one) can't buy a new scope from your company and get technical support because they use it at home. What about statements like this?

"Now more than ever, the world needs innovators. Engineers with big ideas looking to make big advances to change the world. But bringing those ideas to life requires access to the right tools, anytime, anywhere. It’s happening today. Engineers working on workbenches set up in garages, basements, home offices, sheds, and labs, are churning out big advancements, from drug delivery robots, rapid medical tests, and temperature screening kiosks, to devices that inactivate coronavirus particles in the air using ultraviolet light. This is just the beginning. What big advance will come next and from where? Will you be that innovator?"

https://www.keysightbenchchallenge.com/

Why would Keysight not want engineers or aspiring engineers to use their equipment at home? It sure sounds like they do on that web page. In any case you should be WAY more obvious about that policy on Ebay. There is no real obvious warning to the average shopper that might want to buy something for home use.

So I was right of course, all I got was crickets ...

[0culus]

Yeah. They are not the same company Bill and Dave started. That's for damn sure.

Previously I states that it wouldn't do any good to respond to Keysight Ebay after their answer to my inquiry, because they wouldn't acknowledge anything was wrong or should be reconsidered about the policy. But in order to prove it to myself I did it anyway. I sent this back Dec 12 -

New message to: keysight

Well, that policy is a shame. It's pretty sad if a person that is an engineer (I'm a retired one) can't buy a new scope from your company and get technical support because they use it at home. What about statements like this?

"Now more than ever, the world needs innovators. Engineers with big ideas looking to make big advances to change the world. But bringing those ideas to life requires access to the right tools, anytime, anywhere. It’s happening today. Engineers working on workbenches set up in garages, basements, home offices, sheds, and labs, are churning out big advancements, from drug delivery robots, rapid medical tests, and temperature screening kiosks, to devices that inactivate coronavirus particles in the air using ultraviolet light. This is just the beginning. What big advance will come next and from where? Will you be that innovator?"

https://www.keysightbenchchallenge.com/

Why would Keysight not want engineers or aspiring engineers to use their equipment at home? It sure sounds like they do on that web page. In any case you should be WAY more obvious about that policy on Ebay. There is no real obvious warning to the average shopper that might want to buy something for home use.

So I was right of course, all I got was crickets ...

I really don't get this "some money is greener than other money" stance they are taking. Just to use an extreme example: if I've got money to burn and want to spend it on a new PNA....I should be able to buy one. Why should they care? A sale is a sale in the test equipment business...especially on the lower volume stuff.

[tautech]

That's a different scenario. Usually, "Recall = dangerous". Companies will do anything and at all costs to replace recalled parts in order to avoid further troubles (i.e lawsuits).

Not necessarily. They probably do an economic analysis that goes something like this: "If we recall those 2 million cars it'll cost us $200 million. If we pay off the families of the 50 fatalities caused by the fault it'll only cost us $50 million. Right, let's go with option 2!"

Maybe you weren't around of totally forgot about the worldwide TDS200 recall.

[coppice]

I really don't get this "some money is greener than other money" stance they are taking. Just to use an extreme example: if I've got money to burn and want to spend it on a new PNA....I should be able to buy one. Why should they care? A sale is a sale in the test equipment business...especially on the lower volume stuff.

Once you get to some of Keysight's exotic equipment you cannot just buy it, as its under EAR control. I suspect the part of Keysight that sells their unrestricted stuff openly hasn't got the rest of the organisation on board, and everything is being treated like it needs an end user licence.

[0culus]

I really don't get this "some money is greener than other money" stance they are taking. Just to use an extreme example: if I've got money to burn and want to spend it on a new PNA....I should be able to buy one. Why should they care? A sale is a sale in the test equipment business...especially on the lower volume stuff.

Once you get to some of Keysight's exotic equipment you cannot just buy it, as its under EAR control. I suspect the part of Keysight that sells their unrestricted stuff openly hasn't got the rest of the organisation on board, and everything is being treated like it needs an end user licence.

You either meet the requirements for buying export controlled stuff or you don't. AS FAR AS I AM AWARE (and IANAL), if you are a US person and purchase something that is EAR/ITAR (and I'll wager any serious electronics--particularly radio--hobbyist probably owns at least one thing that technically is export controlled), it becomes your problem to ensure it doesn't get exported illegally if you sell it or even take it with you out of the country for some reason. That isn't really germane to Keysight straight up refusing to take your money in exchange for goods and services as a regular person.

[Sal Ammoniac]

That's a different scenario. Usually, "Recall = dangerous". Companies will do anything and at all costs to replace recalled parts in order to avoid further troubles (i.e lawsuits).

Not necessarily. They probably do an economic analysis that goes something like this: "If we recall those 2 million cars it'll cost us $200 million. If we pay off the families of the 50 fatalities caused by the fault it'll only cost us $50 million. Right, let's go with option 2!"

Would you buy a car from a company that one of their models caused 50 fatalities because they chose not to recall some part(s)? Also, is it even legal for the company not to do so? Doesn't sound like an option for the company to me.

Have you ever heard of the Ford Pinto? What I described above is exactly what Ford did. You can read the story here: https://www.autosafety.org/ford-pinto-fuel-tank/

There are other, similar, cases that are perhaps not as egregious as Pinto scandal, but fit the same mold, such as the GM ignition switch scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls

Perhaps these kinds of things don't happen in Germany, but they certainly happen here.

[m k]

BTW,
here online sales are home sales, no returns are no good.

[rsjsouza]

Perhaps these kinds of things don't happen in Germany, but they certainly happen here.

My suspicion is that they do, but most companies wouldn't admit it.

Joeqsmith saw a flaw on Gossen's DMMs where they were highly susceptible to magnetic fields, but they never gave him the time of the day. Roll a few months and someone reported they implemented exactly what Joe had suggested in his video. Pride is strong in certain companies.
 

[madires]

Lovely! Another candidate for the do-not-buy list.

[george.b]

Meanwhile, I got this e-mail from them. So now they're a company that probably wouldn't want anything to do with someone like Woz or a garage outfit like Apple if it happened today, and yet they're here extolling those early days. Again, it's all kinda schizophrenic if you ask me.

[Caliaxy]

Sorry if it’s already mentioned and I missed it, but could the OP let us know what kind of support was denied for his DSOX1204G? Was it warranty or something else?

[xrunner]

Hey, it's not all bad. Even if I can't buy Keysight kit and get support, at least I can request a 2022 calendar!

 

email received tonight -

We appreciate your continued interaction with Keysight, our products, and our people. To show our gratitude, we’ve compiled a fun 2022 daily calendar for your desk!

Add a little zing to your day with mind-bending brain teasers, clever hidden-object photos, links to exclusive offers, and more. Request your 2022 calendar while supplies last.


Sincerely,

Keysight Technologies

[Whales]

Careful, that calendar only covers business days.

[LaurentR]

Hey, it's not all bad. Even if I can't buy Keysight kit and get support, at least I can request a 2022 calendar!

Their list of possible job types is pretty interesting and certainly doesn't contain hobbyist 
I applied. We'll see if they send one.

[Bud]

I received that email with the calendar but while email was mine, the addressee name and the name of his business were someone else's. 

[gnavigator1007]

I opened my inbox and laughed when I saw a notification for this topic and something from keysight in my promotions folder. Checked the thread first. Read about the calendar. Back to inbox. Sure enough, promotion was for the calendar

[Nominal Animal]

Sorry if it’s already mentioned and I missed it, but could the OP let us know what kind of support was denied for his DSOX1204G? Was it warranty or something else?

OP said in the first post in the thread that

I recently contacted Keysight support but they have point-blank refused to talk to me because I am not a company. This is their reply:

Dear ...,

Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use. While we thank you for your interest in our products and/or services, we are unable to provide you with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent  proof of business license.

which –– at least to myself –– indicates that it was not the support that was denied, but that they refused to even "read" the support request without proof of business license.

[Stray Electron]

Not necessarily. They probably do an economic analysis that goes something like this: "If we recall those 2 million cars it'll cost us $200 million. If we pay off the families of the 50 fatalities caused by the fault it'll only cost us $50 million. Right, let's go with option 2!"

   That's EXACTLY what Ford Motor Company did in the case of the Pintos that burst into a ball of fire when they get rear ended!  That's why FMC got their corporate asses handed to them in court.  First, the gas tanks in the Pintos were only one sheet of metal that formed a pan that was attached to the floor pan of the car body  and the "tank" was not a separate structure. Second, Ford stapled the carpets to the floor from the inside. That meant that many of staples went directly into the fuel cavity. And since they were staples they made holes in the floor pan and there were tiny gaps around the staples. The result was that in a severe collision, the fuel tank was held in place and crushed instead of being shoved under the car as in a normal design. Crushing the tank also caused the fuel to be SPRAYED through the staple holes into the passenger compartment and at the same time is was atomized. So the slightest spark would ignite the fuel vapor/air mix and Ka-Boom!

  Ford knew about the flaming Pintos FOR YEARS and never did anything about them. They DID do the analysis and they decided that it WAS cheaper to pay the resulting lawsuits instead of fixing the problem. And one of the things that came out in the trial was that Ford had saved something like $1.11 on each car by eliminating the top plate of the fuel tank and attaching the bottom of it directly to the floor pan.

  NEVER for a moment assume that a company, or any individual for that matter, will put your health and safety above their profits.  If they did we wouldn't have agencies such as OSHA, FTC, SCC and the numerous others.

  All of that said, I have a much later Ford F-150 and I'm very happy with it. Among other things that I like about it is that it does have a separate fuel tank and under the center of the body instead of behind the rear axle as in the Pinto so it is much more protected. My model also has a metal skid plate below the fuel tank to help further protect it. I'm very active in the F-150 community and I've never heard of one catching fire due to a collision, under any circumstances.

  FWIW.

[MegaVolt]

Ha ha ha )) I ordered a calendar ))) I couldn't buy it from the official representative in my country, so it was easier to buy it in the neighboring country: ))))))) They are beautiful )))))))))))))

[TomS_]

I do wonder if this wouldn't actually have any impact on their competitions, because they aren't selling it to you, they are giving it away.

How you might then go about getting support for it afterwards seems like it could be very difficult...

I bought my MSOX2024A from their eBay store a few years back, and I bought a license to unlock a bunch of features from a reseller. Neither of them blinked an eye or asked for any business details at time of purchase, so this must be relatively recent. The scope came with a 5 year warranty, which I guess will run out in a year or two by this stage, but I can't imagine that my consumer rights will be affected.

I also wonder if there is something about the design of their equipment itself that has something to do with it. My scope has a "clunking power switch" but I think even Dave has done teardowns that show that the power supply itself is not disconnected, so the unit has a "high" standby power usage that might be against requirements for consumer electronics, therefore they can't sell/market it to consumers?

But this is rather disappointing to see. I've been looking for a bench multimeter, and maybe at some stage a function gen. I had really hoped to fill my lab with top shelf stuff, but I guess I'll just have to spend my dollarydoos elsewhere.

I too would like to see Dave raise awareness of this, but the cynic in me thinks he wouldn't want to upset the apple cart, but if he does, how much will it be downplayed or how will the impartiality be affected given the relationship he has...

Also, has anyone looked into whether other manufacturers are the same? R&S for example?

[kaz911]

It is incredible short sighted from Keysight.

Small "startup" setups - will have to buy and learn about Tier 2 (Rigol, Siglent etc)  products during their product creation. What that usually means is later in their "company life" they have realised that the Tier 2 products are fine - and it will be a hard push to get any Tier 1 devices in.

I think Keysight's policy change is a bit like wetting your pants - it might be warm right now but it will get a lot colder very soon.

Keysight have had an EXTREME amount of goodwill from creators and online forums like EEVBlog - where everyone from hobbyist to extreme specialists mix and talk. It does not take long to destroy that goodwill completely - and the negativity from it will reflect into even the largest companies over time.

If I was development manager at big Electronics development company - who makes thing for fun at home - I would be so "pissed" with Keysight that I would NOT purchase Keysight items for the company - unless I was forced to do so.

And that is the thing I think Keysight is "forgetting" - we might work in certain roles where we can buy and can afford Keysight. But many of us do have a life "outside" where a lot of us "tinker" with other electronics projects.

[Spud]

If Keysight kit is not suitable for use in a domestic environment (which is what they are saying), then that makes it pretty useless with so many people working from home at the present time. I suppose businesses up and down the country will just have to sell it and buy other stuff that CAN be used at their employee's homes.

[hpw]

It may the new share holder thinking as maximized revenue... and lawyers are helping in this regard. Same thinking on Godfather MS too 

[5q5r]

This thread certainly made me go and unsubscribe from their mailing lists. It gave me an opportunity to say why - which wasn't difficult.

Keithley, on the other hand, have been very service-minded through their local rep. I bought a DMM6500, and asked if they needed a business VAT id to avoid consumer protection issues? Absolutely not! They were happy to stand by their products.

They even shipped faster than I had paid for - when they asked if I would be home to receive the item two days later, I explained that I was stuck at home with the flu. The box arrived early the next day - with a nice note wishing me a fast recovery so I could have a play!

(also, a DMM6500 for just over €800 plus VAT and shipping - I think they still have some left at that price)

[voltsandjolts]

Congrats on the shiny new DMM6500

...and if you need a scanner card for it....
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/circuit-studio/example-project-relay-scan-card-for-k2000-dmm/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/circuit-studio/example-project-20-channel-solid-state-scan-card-for-k2000-dmm/