Author Topic: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist  (Read 100287 times)

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Offline 5q5r

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #150 on: December 17, 2021, 01:04:10 pm »
I'm taking a slightly different route, inspired by those projects, of having 3d printed a "carrier" that I can put stripboard/veroboard onto, with relays etc - for now, anyway. If I find a good source of latching relays, I may build a proper 20 channel one :-)
 

Offline xmo

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #151 on: December 17, 2021, 03:35:32 pm »
Keysight is not the only one doing this.  R&S is at least as bad if not worse.

Companies like Siglent and Rigol are continuously expanding their product offerings and encroaching into the big guys territory.  Engineers at companies far and wide recommend new equipment purchases for many reasons.  Eventually, favorable experience at home with equipment from sensible companies will be a big factor.  Some day down the road, Siglent may wind up buying the dying remains of Keysight - or whatever their name is then - they've already been kicked to the curb twice.

Not all companies ignore the value of customer's employees.  Big, bad Microsoft recognizes that having their software in users hands at home makes the same people favor those products at work.

If you work for an organization that site licenses Microsoft products, you may find that you are eligible for HUP - their home use program.

A few years ago I found that I could get the entire office suite for 10 USD. I'm still using it.  The HUP still exists, but has transitioned as their focus has changed to '365'
 

Offline Jester

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #152 on: December 17, 2021, 03:46:36 pm »
Many many years ago, I had a HP calculator for school. Most of the students had the same calculator. Close to the end of the year many of these calculators developed an intermittent problem with the upper half of the display and someone opened it up and soldered the mechanical connections to the display. Problem solved (so we thought). I could not afford to send my calculator in under warranty because I needed it daily, so I did the same.  A while later the bottom half of the display got the same disease, however soldering was not an option. After exams I sent it in for warranty fully expecting HP would reject my request. Calculator came back repaired under warranty. For decades I was a huge HP fan because of that experience and I shared the story countless times.

After hearing about the newer Keysight power supply transients and now this it is clear that this is now a very different company, I have no plans to purchase Keysight until this changes.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #153 on: December 17, 2021, 04:05:59 pm »
Eventually, favorable experience at home with equipment from sensible companies will be a big factor. 

I have had nothing but frustration and wasted time with equipment from "sensible companies"

Quote
Some day down the road, Siglent may wind up buying the dying remains of Keysight - or whatever their name is then - they've already been kicked to the curb twice.

Keysight stock is doing very well on the stock market and their financial fundamentals are strong. You will have to wait for a while before what you said would happen. And i have not seen Siglent being traded on the stock market beside locally in China.
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Offline hpw

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #154 on: December 17, 2021, 04:08:22 pm »
I am just wondering why no any gear satisfaction sheet exists on this forum...

Regarding:

. Purchase
. Value for money
. Bug fixing (quality & time required)
. pre-sales service
. after sales service (forum help..)
. crap after years
. value after years
. up-gradable

more to come  :phew:

 

Offline Caliaxy

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #155 on: December 17, 2021, 04:36:50 pm »
Sorry if it’s already mentioned and I missed it, but could the OP let us know what kind of support was denied for his DSOX1204G? Was it warranty or something else?
OP said in the first post in the thread that
I recently contacted Keysight support but they have point-blank refused to talk to me because I am not a company. This is their reply:
Quote
Dear ...,

Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use. While we thank you for your interest in our products and/or services, we are unable to provide you with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent  proof of business license.
which –– at least to myself –– indicates that it was not the support that was denied, but that they refused to even "read" the support request without proof of business license.

I got that. I was only curious about the requested service.

If you call them and say: “My brand new DSOX1204G is dead as a brick, can you check it under warranty?” is one thing.

If you say: “I accidentally bent a pin in the Ethernet socket then broke it while trying to straighten it. Can’t find a perfect replacement, can you sell me the original part? I know how to replace it myself, I’m a hobbyist” is a different thing.

If you say: “Can you please send me another faceplate overlay with Cyrillics, because my mother in law from Vladivostok is visiting us for Christmas and she might want to use the scope and I don’t want to have any troubles over the holiday season? She was a nuclear physicist before retiring” is even a more different thing.

My point is that in US (at least, not sure elsewhere) many lawyer-redacted agreements are not there to be necessarily enforced point by point, but only to give a legal reason to back out off a deal (or deny a service or take a specific action) at the issuer discretion, when they wish so for reasons they might not what to bother to explain. Like in my state, it’s illegal to drive in the left lane unless you want to pass a vehicle driving in the right lane. Nobody gets pulled over or gets a ticket for that, and everybody is doing it. I know a guy who asked the police officer who pulled him over for speeding if his radar was recently calibrated. He learned his speed had been only estimated by “clocking” (not by radar), so he only got a warning for speeding and on top of that a $100 ticket for driving in the left lane. Happened to friend of mine ;) (he fought it in court and won, not because he had the law on his side, but because that was his only moving violation in the last three years and the judge wanted to encourage him to keep his good driving behavior; “Not guilty!”).

My personal limited experience with Keysight as a private customer in US was not that bad. I bought a DSO from their eBay store and found an issue. I called the US customer support. They picked up immediately, spent time on the phone, fixed the issue. They also provided a direct phone number to call if the issue reoccurs. I got some free software upgrades, too. It was a couple of years ago. True, I was within the return window and the conversation started with “I’m not sure if I want to return it for a full refund or try to fix the issue”. The issue was intermittent ethernet connection if it matters (fixed by a deep hardware reset, or something like that). I also have a separate work account with them (using my employer issued email), but I don’t think they knew that while providing the support.

I don’t mean to offend the OP in any way.
 
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Offline pqass

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #156 on: December 17, 2021, 05:33:21 pm »
I'm not sure what to make of this thread.  I'll just add my single datapoint.

I purchased a DSOX1204G in December of 2019.  All was well until the following May when I installed the latest firmware at that time.  Post installation, I'd discovered that I could no longer reach the device via LAN (http).

The next morning, I'm pretty sure that I opened an online ticket (rather than call their 800 number) and quickly received a callback.   I was then put in contact with a tech that knew of the issue and asked me to email him a photo of the scope LAN config screen. He walked me through a reset procedure and a couple of reboots later, all was well again. I was pleased with their response.

However,
(1) I had initially registered the device when I purchased it so my details were already on file, and
(2) on the initial support callback I was asked to email my purchase invoice (from canada.newark.com) to them to "transfer the asset to your account".

Maybe there is different treatment depending on country of purchase.

Anyway, carry on with the dogpile.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #157 on: December 17, 2021, 07:26:15 pm »
I got that. I was only curious about the requested service.
[...]
I don’t mean to offend the OP in any way.
Nor I you.  Do note that their answer does not say "we refuse", it says "we are unable to provide you with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent proof of business license".  I don't know about the UK – where OP resides –, but in the EU, that response is very problematic.  Depending on the purchase chain, and whether a manufacturing defect or other defect the manufacturer is legally liable for, that response may be illegal in some cases.
 

Offline HobGoblyn

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #158 on: December 29, 2021, 11:21:36 pm »
Utter nonsense. There are lots of professional equipment dealers around. And the ALDI like stores simply outsource servicing; lookup a company called Medion.

What you are overlooking is that manufacturers don't want to deal with the raw sewage of bogus claims & user errors coming from users so they leave that to resellers to sift through.

Perhaps things are different in your locale?  Here it is very common for things sold at retailers--from ceiling fans to generators to patio furniture--to come with a notice from the manufacturer in the package telling you not to bother the retailer if you have a problem.  Service by the manufacturer is the norm for many things, including most things we would discuss here. 

While as others have said, in the UK your contract is with the retailer not the manufacture, while legally that’s true, in practice, often the product will tell you to contact the manufacturer direct, and often if you do contact the retailer (which is a good thing to do so that your fault is logged with them), they will give you the manufacturers phone number and still ask you to contact them direct.

The one time I questioned a retailer for doing this and politely pointed out my legal entitlement, they effectively said,

“Well you have a choice, phone Sony on the number I’ve given you and have it replaced within days, or leave it here with us, we have to send it back to our xyz, they then will log it etc and if you are lucky, you might have it back within a month”

I bought an expensive (well expensive to me) Korg Workstation/synth (Kronos) from my local music shop. They contacted Korg for me initially, but I then dealt with Korg direct, up until the point (weeks later) I still wasn’t happy with it, at that point the shop took it back over, and they swapped it with the later model.

 

Offline trophosphere

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #159 on: December 30, 2021, 12:07:25 am »
To add another data point.

I had, a couple of years ago, purchased a rubber bumper set for one of my Keysight (Agilent) instruments and they happily sent it to me. Come this year I ordered another bumper set for another Keysight instrument and they canceled the order citing that I needed to provide a business address for them to ship it to as they will not ship to a residential address. In addition, they removed the ability from my account for me to even place a purchase from their Keysight store until I fulfill their request. This is in the setting of I'm still work from home so the office where I work at is closed and corporate is in another city.

I could have just provided them the business address and sent them an email asking them to please ship it a residential address/re-routed the shipment after they shipped it but now it's more on principle that I don't hold them as high regards anymore.
 

Online TERRA Operative

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #160 on: December 30, 2021, 05:54:18 am »
That's easy, your home is a 'regional office' ;)
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #161 on: December 30, 2021, 06:47:26 am »
What a stupid company.
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #162 on: December 30, 2021, 07:09:28 am »
To add another data point.

I had, a couple of years ago, purchased a rubber bumper set for one of my Keysight (Agilent) instruments and they happily sent it to me. Come this year I ordered another bumper set for another Keysight instrument and they canceled the order citing that I needed to provide a business address for them to ship it to as they will not ship to a residential address. In addition, they removed the ability from my account for me to even place a purchase from their Keysight store until I fulfill their request. This is in the setting of I'm still work from home so the office where I work at is closed and corporate is in another city.

I could have just provided them the business address and sent them an email asking them to please ship it a residential address/re-routed the shipment after they shipped it but now it's more on principle that I don't hold them as high regards anymore.

Wow.   :(  Next time you order something from them, give them the address 367 Addison Ave, Palo Alto, CA 94301, and when they reject it, forward it to the CEO and ask him if he recognizes it.
 

Offline armandine2

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #163 on: January 09, 2022, 01:35:57 pm »

However from the RS website :
Quote
2.5  RS is a business-to-business supplier. The RS website is intended for use by business customers and not by private individuals acting as consumers (“Consumers”). Notwithstanding the foregoing, nothing in these terms and conditions shall affect the mandatory rights of a customer who deals as a Consumer.
Which seems clear to me - they explicitly acknowledge that consumers may buy Keysight products from RS and will have all normal consumer rights.

Just ordered the EDU33212A Waveform Generator from RS - recently had problems with purchasing with Farnell (I have some suspicion they blocked me over a user error flag relating to returning a Metcal handpiece) which may relate to your findings, quoted.
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Offline armandine2

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #164 on: January 09, 2022, 06:50:30 pm »
Re the EDU33212A:

 it doesn't look like you can get the user manual (simply) from RS - which means you're forced to be overtly obstacle-coursed to get Keysight's download!  |O
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Offline armandine2

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2022, 07:48:41 pm »
In the event the download was simple -  :-+ _ so we can take the above as a figment of a fevered imagination.  The Pathwave BenchVue software may have to wait for my windows 10 upgrade LOL.  :palm:
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Offline Anthocyanina

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #166 on: January 10, 2022, 11:10:31 pm »
Re the EDU33212A:

 it doesn't look like you can get the user manual (simply) from RS - which means you're forced to be overtly obstacle-coursed to get Keysight's download!  |O

are you planning to do a review of it? there's none out there of that generator!
 

Offline armandine2

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #167 on: January 11, 2022, 01:12:39 pm »


are you planning to do a review of it? there's none out there of that generator!

not planning, but let's say considering filming a test - to inject two antiphase sinusoids into my capacitance displacement transducer - once my bench space is clearer.

You can of course  see a youtube upload of the generator in action - by Dave on eevblog -  Fluke averaging multimeter upgraded to RMS.
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Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #168 on: January 11, 2022, 01:33:07 pm »
Unlike back when they were HP I don't see their products are that impressive any more.
 

Offline mawyatt

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #169 on: January 11, 2022, 03:10:56 pm »
Quite a few years ago I talked with some senior Keysight folks and asked if "they" were trying to reinvent themselves as a modern HP. The answer was "Absolutely!!"

However, with the present Keysight posture towards individuals and small groups/companies it seems that Keysight is being run and dictated by "others" than engineer/scientist types that made HP great. This posture falls directly into the short term mentality line we see everywhere, create value for executives and shareholders this quarter and don't worry about long term results.

As we move along in time we see the results at Keysight, less and less of the old HP in every way, and more and more of just a me too instrument provider :P


Best,
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Offline madires

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #170 on: January 11, 2022, 04:11:20 pm »
Don't worry! This will last for some years until our economic systems are forced to move from short term profit optimization to long term sustainability. There's no everlasting economic growth with limited resources, i.e. the small planet we are living on.
 
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Offline wizard69

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #171 on: January 11, 2022, 06:17:20 pm »
This is something Keysight and a few other manufactures don't seem to understand.   The same people using your hardware at home may have a rather large budget for instruments at work.   Frankly there is good reason to have such at home and that isn't just the reality of the pandemic.

This is piss poor marketing by Keysight. 

I spend ~$1K to $2K a year on my home lab.  However my company often purchases $200K to $20M in test equipment at a time for the systems I design and specify.

If you piss me off at home, I am likely not going to specify your test equipment where I work if there is a good alternative.  In most cases there usually is.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #172 on: January 12, 2022, 12:03:11 am »
Quite a few years ago I talked with some senior Keysight folks and asked if "they" were trying to reinvent themselves as a modern HP. The answer was "Absolutely!!"

However, with the present Keysight posture towards individuals and small groups/companies it seems that Keysight is being run and dictated by "others" than engineer/scientist types that made HP great. This posture falls directly into the short term mentality line we see everywhere, create value for executives and shareholders this quarter and don't worry about long term results.

As we move along in time we see the results at Keysight, less and less of the old HP in every way, and more and more of just a me too instrument provider :P
Can you blame them with Chinese test equipment manufacturers breathing in their necks and eating a bigger piece of the pie each year? Appearantly a lot of customers don't value the level of support A-brands offer and buy cheaper gear. Staying stuck in old A-brand habbits will drive the A-brands into the ground; they have to react and make their organisations more lean.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline merport

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #173 on: January 12, 2022, 01:16:12 am »
Wondering if Independent Contractors (Schedule C filers, U.S.) would be considered as professionals or consumers.  There may be engineers, mechanics, appliance technicians, consultants, etc in this category.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #174 on: January 12, 2022, 01:47:36 am »
Appearantly a lot of customers don't value the level of support A-brands offer and buy cheaper gear.
Like the support that unless you're a company, you can fuck off?

No.  That argument is full of shit.  The river runs the other way: you start cutting corners, and even your loyal customers will switch.  Only the ideologically programmed brand fans will remain.
 


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