Author Topic: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist  (Read 100281 times)

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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #175 on: January 12, 2022, 01:59:28 am »
My recent experience with a laptop with liquid damage is a good example of proper support.

I needed a HP Elitebook replacement keyboard, with a relatively rare Swedish/Finnish keyboard layout.
All I needed to do was to go to HP spare parts store, and order a new one.  Sure, the price is a bit steep, but not extortionate.
It was shipped the same day, and if UPS had done their job, I'd had had it the next day.

The answer to any kind of private customer support issues is not to deny service (again, because that can very well be illegal in EU), but to set such prices that it makes commercial sense.  Large companies like HP –– and I do see the hilarity in this! –– have done this for decades.

This stunt by Keysight and others is a stupid one, and no inane attempt at claiming how it protects their brand or business can defend that, because other companies do not suffer by doing what Keysight claims would make them suffer –– that is, selling pro gear to private customers.  No, it is just the kind of idiocy that spelled the doom for Nokia in the cellphone business.  Poor business strategy.

Even if Keysight can weather this without major ramifications, the fact that this kind of inanity is what their leadership advocates, indicates that it is not a company that anyone who can get their hardware from a more sanely lead business should support if they expect their gear to be maintainable over more than just the immediate short term.

I have seen before how companies throw money at PR and "outreach programs" –– think Keysight Wave ––, and think that garnering market share that way means they can shaft their customers.  Thing is, it does not work that way.  Yes, the students using your test gear at vocational schools and universities might buy one device with their own money afterwards, until shafted the first time.  People who buy expensive gear to do their work are extremely good at learning from being burned by a vendor!
 
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Offline 0culus

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #176 on: January 12, 2022, 02:02:57 am »
Eventually they will be left with only the "never got fired for buying IBM" corporate customers. Maybe that's what they are after?
 
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #177 on: January 12, 2022, 02:06:55 am »
Hey but look how happy they can make you - even outside in the cold bundled up they can make you smile on support!

 :-DD
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #178 on: January 12, 2022, 02:11:52 am »
Hey but look how happy they can make you - even outside in the cold bundled up they can make you smile on support!

 :-DD
Nope, she's grinning from reading this blog.
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Offline Someone

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #179 on: January 12, 2022, 02:39:38 am »
Hey but look how happy they can make you - even outside in the cold bundled up they can make you smile on support!
Nope, she's grinning from reading this blog.
Lowest bidder "support" contractor cant afford an office space so works outside?
 

Offline 0culus

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #180 on: January 12, 2022, 02:40:18 am »
Hey but look how happy they can make you - even outside in the cold bundled up they can make you smile on support!
Nope, she's grinning from reading this blog.
Lowest bidder "support" contractor cant afford an office space so works outside?

Nah, a cubicle farm. I'd rather work outside.
 
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Offline Anthocyanina

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #181 on: January 12, 2022, 03:59:09 am »

not planning, but let's say considering filming a test - to inject two antiphase sinusoids into my capacitance displacement transducer - once my bench space is clearer.

You can of course  see a youtube upload of the generator in action - by Dave on eevblog -  Fluke averaging multimeter upgraded to RMS.

ooh! that would be nice to see.

about Dave's video, i couldn't find it after some time searching. could you please link it? (or pm it since this starts to get off topic?) Thank you!
 

Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #182 on: January 12, 2022, 10:44:43 am »
Quite a few years ago I talked with some senior Keysight folks and asked if "they" were trying to reinvent themselves as a modern HP. The answer was "Absolutely!!"

However, with the present Keysight posture towards individuals and small groups/companies it seems that Keysight is being run and dictated by "others" than engineer/scientist types that made HP great. This posture falls directly into the short term mentality line we see everywhere, create value for executives and shareholders this quarter and don't worry about long term results.

As we move along in time we see the results at Keysight, less and less of the old HP in every way, and more and more of just a me too instrument provider :P
Can you blame them with Chinese test equipment manufacturers breathing in their necks and eating a bigger piece of the pie each year? Appearantly a lot of customers don't value the level of support A-brands offer and buy cheaper gear. Staying stuck in old A-brand habbits will drive the A-brands into the ground; they have to react and make their organisations more lean.

Yes I do blame them. What they do make me feel the Chinese products are worthwhile. Besides a lot of their equipment are not made in the USA any way.
 

Offline BBBbbb

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #183 on: January 12, 2022, 11:48:11 am »
Appearantly a lot of customers don't value the level of support A-brands offer and buy cheaper gear.
Support like intentionally making proprietary cables and charging an arm and a leg for it, that even mid size companies have problems justifying the costs?
 
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Online nfmax

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #184 on: January 12, 2022, 02:32:14 pm »
Wait - I have an idea! Just add a bottle of booze to your order with Keysight. Then they will implicitly assume it is a work order  :-DD
 
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Offline armandine2

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #185 on: January 12, 2022, 09:09:49 pm »


ooh! that would be nice to see.

about Dave's video, i couldn't find it after some time searching. could you please link it? (or pm it since this starts to get off topic?) Thank you!



In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught - Hunter S Thompson
 
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Offline Anthocyanina

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #186 on: January 12, 2022, 11:39:28 pm »

oh! that says uploaded just an hour ago! thank you
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #187 on: January 13, 2022, 01:34:11 am »
I bought a Keysight DSOX1204G oscilloscope for home use. I recently contacted Keysight support ....

I am curious.  I don't see how they could dodge a warranty issue, which leads me to the question:  What was the nature of the support you sought?

I have not found anything in this thread which spells that out.  Knowing that would help justify the responses here.
 

Offline metebalci

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #188 on: January 13, 2022, 07:14:14 am »
I got a reply from the Keysight Ebay store, legalistic as I suspected. So to my question -

Quote
Hello,

In your equipment listings it is stated -

"For professional and industrial use only"

There has been some discussion on electronics forums from users who have bought Keysight equipment for home use, that Keysight does not provide technical support to them because they are not a "business" but a home hobby user. Can you clarify whether this is true or false - that home hobbyist users who buy Keysight equipment (new or used) will not receive technical support? Are there any countries you sell to whose buyers would not receive technical support if they were a home or hobbyist user?

Thanks,


I got this back today -

Quote
Please see point 4J on our T&Cs:

https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9018-60029/exhibits/9018-60029.pdf

Best regards, Keysight Technologies.

Keysight Technologies
The leader in Electronic Test and Measurement Equipment innovation for more than 75 years.
stores.ebay.com/keysight

Here is point 4 (j) -

Quote
4 (j) Products are intended for professional and industrial use only, and
are not suitable for consumer or household use, and Customer
represents and warrants that it is not acquiring Products for such
uses. Consumer or household use, or use outside of the Specification
for the Product, will nullify Sections 2(a), (b) and (e), 4(a) and (b), 5(b)
and 6 of these Terms and void the warranty terms set out, or
incorporated in, Section 3.

Products are not specifi cally designed,
manufactured or intended for sale as parts, components or
assemblies for the planning, construction, maintenance or direct
operation of a nuclear facility. Keysight shall not be liable for any
damages resulting from such use

They don't claim you cannot buy something, but that it will void term and warranties if you are a consumer / household user.

So that pretty much does it for me too. I had toyed with getting a new Keysight scope one day, but that closes them off to me forever. What a shame.

I have purchased something from Keysight ebay store almost a year ago. I was considering to purchase something else recently and I sent an offer yesterday. Then I have been asked the company name etc. and when I said it is for personal use, I am told they can only sell to companies.
 

Offline LazyJack

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #189 on: January 13, 2022, 09:57:03 am »
It would be interesting to see, how they define 'business'. In my country (and I presume in lot of others) there is a form of business which is called something like "private entrepreneur'. This is a one person type of business, perfectly able to fully take part in any business, and operate as such, without any additional legal entity. (of course they are wholly responsible with their own wealth, etc for the business, but that is an other matter).
The only thing they have is a VAT number. I may give Keysight a call. I understand their reasoning on different consumer protection laws on privates and business, but this is pretty ridiculous.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #190 on: January 13, 2022, 11:57:39 am »
I have purchased something from Keysight ebay store almost a year ago. I was considering to purchase something else recently and I sent an offer yesterday. Then I have been asked the company name etc. and when I said it is for personal use, I am told they can only sell to companies.
This wasn't via eBay, right? Otherwise, Keysight would have no place in questioning this...
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Online nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #191 on: January 13, 2022, 12:23:40 pm »
I have purchased something from Keysight ebay store almost a year ago. I was considering to purchase something else recently and I sent an offer yesterday. Then I have been asked the company name etc. and when I said it is for personal use, I am told they can only sell to companies.
This wasn't via eBay, right? Otherwise, Keysight would have no place in questioning this...
For what reason? A seller on Ebay can impose whatever restrictions for whatever reason they want!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #192 on: January 13, 2022, 02:17:14 pm »

The EU Consumer Sales and Guarantees Directive 1999/44/EC (CSGD) establishes the legal guarantee for consumer goods and regulates commercial guarantees. Sellers of consumer goods have to guarantee that the goods are in conformity with the contract for a minimum period of two years after the delivery of the goods.


Keysight appears to have reached the conclusion that they can't afford to offer a "forced" 2 year warranty on all their products to non-professional users.

So by requiring buyers to self-declare as "professional",  they can limit the warranty to anything they want, and that the buyer agrees to.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #193 on: January 13, 2022, 02:24:45 pm »

The EU Consumer Sales and Guarantees Directive 1999/44/EC (CSGD) establishes the legal guarantee for consumer goods and regulates commercial guarantees. Sellers of consumer goods have to guarantee that the goods are in conformity with the contract for a minimum period of two years after the delivery of the goods.


Keysight appears to have reached the conclusion that they can't afford to offer a "forced" 2 year warranty on all their products to non-professional users.

So by requiring buyers to self-declare as "professional",  they can limit the warranty to anything they want, and that the buyer agrees to.
But this does not apply to US non-commercial customers. I think it is much simpler than everyone is assuming and much less of a problem. Offering support straight from the factory costs money while a lot of sales are made through resellers. It makes way more sense to have support handled by their resellers; let them work for the margin they are making. I've bought all my Keysight gear through a reseller and their support never let me down.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 02:26:57 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #194 on: January 13, 2022, 04:07:23 pm »

The EU Consumer Sales and Guarantees Directive 1999/44/EC (CSGD) establishes the legal guarantee for consumer goods and regulates commercial guarantees. Sellers of consumer goods have to guarantee that the goods are in conformity with the contract for a minimum period of two years after the delivery of the goods.


Keysight appears to have reached the conclusion that they can't afford to offer a "forced" 2 year warranty on all their products to non-professional users.

So by requiring buyers to self-declare as "professional",  they can limit the warranty to anything they want, and that the buyer agrees to.
But this does not apply to US non-commercial customers. I think it is much simpler than everyone is assuming and much less of a problem. Offering support straight from the factory costs money while a lot of sales are made through resellers. It makes way more sense to have support handled by their resellers; let them work for the margin they are making. I've bought all my Keysight gear through a reseller and their support never let me down.

In the case of the EU rules,  it is the reseller that would have to deal with the 2 year conformance requirement for a consumer sale.  Is that what the resellers want, if Keysight is not backing them with 2 years behind the scenes?  ...  I wouldn't,  unless I could mark the price up enough to cover the risk for whatever time Keysight is not covering!

There is always a trade-off between price and warranty duration.  It's like insurance...

Keysight selling direct is in competition with the resellers.  The prices are lower, but only without the consumer protection rules...

By the way, this is not a criticism of the EU rules on consumer sales - it seems entirely reasonable to legislate a minimum standard in this day and age of unrepairable crap with dying sealed batteries, disappearing cloud service dependencies, and so on...   -  But professional/industrial sales are different, buyer is expected to know what they are doing and may well accept a shorter warranty (at a lower price!).
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 04:09:13 pm by SilverSolder »
 

Offline jjoonathan

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #195 on: January 13, 2022, 04:16:28 pm »
Keysight knows more about the reliability of their products, so they should want to warrant them, assuming that the actual reliability is about what customers expect. Same reliability, less uncertainty = cheaper insurance. If Keysight doesn't want to warrant its products, this suggests it has knowledge indicating that the actual reliability is below customer expectations.

That's a bad look.
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #196 on: January 13, 2022, 04:28:54 pm »
I have purchased something from Keysight ebay store almost a year ago. I was considering to purchase something else recently and I sent an offer yesterday. Then I have been asked the company name etc. and when I said it is for personal use, I am told they can only sell to companies.
This wasn't via eBay, right? Otherwise, Keysight would have no place in questioning this...
For what reason? A seller on Ebay can impose whatever restrictions for whatever reason they want!
I am not sure I follow. According to the link below eBay says that, once a sale is done, the seller is obligated to complete it following their process and give a reason. 
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/getting-paid/cancelling-transaction?id=4136&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=link&campid=5338108869&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

I am pretty sure there is no mentioned reason stating "customer is not a business" - so, Keysight eBay store would have to lie and pay the eBay fees anyways. Buyers can still leave negative feedback. Do this often and your store is shot down.

Perhaps something not considered by them with this policy change?
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #197 on: January 13, 2022, 04:29:45 pm »
Keysight knows more about the reliability of their products, so they should want to warrant them, assuming that the actual reliability is about what customers expect. Same reliability, less uncertainty = cheaper insurance. If Keysight doesn't want to warrant its products, this suggests it has knowledge indicating that the actual reliability is below customer expectations.

That's a bad look.

I agree with you.   A better decision by Keysight would have been to just offer 2 years for everyone, build and price their instruments accordingly, and be done with it, instead of losing so much goodwill (as seen in this thread).

2 years is hardly a high bar for a company like Keysight...


 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #198 on: January 13, 2022, 04:34:25 pm »
I have purchased something from Keysight ebay store almost a year ago. I was considering to purchase something else recently and I sent an offer yesterday. Then I have been asked the company name etc. and when I said it is for personal use, I am told they can only sell to companies.
This wasn't via eBay, right? Otherwise, Keysight would have no place in questioning this...
For what reason? A seller on Ebay can impose whatever restrictions for whatever reason they want!
I am not sure I follow. According to the link below eBay says that, once a sale is done, the seller is obligated to complete it following their process and give a reason. 
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/getting-paid/cancelling-transaction?id=4136&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=link&campid=5338108869&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

I am pretty sure there is no mentioned reason stating "customer is not a business" - so, Keysight eBay store would have to lie and pay the eBay fees anyways. Buyers can still leave negative feedback. Do this often and your store is shot down.

Perhaps something not considered by them with this policy change?

Have you noticed that the Keysight listings all say "For professional and industrial use only" in big, red, capital letters?

I'm not convinced that this removes any legal obligations for either Keysight or eBay...    what's next, Ford selling cars marked "professional use only" with no warranties?  lol
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #199 on: January 13, 2022, 04:48:06 pm »
I have purchased something from Keysight ebay store almost a year ago. I was considering to purchase something else recently and I sent an offer yesterday. Then I have been asked the company name etc. and when I said it is for personal use, I am told they can only sell to companies.
This wasn't via eBay, right? Otherwise, Keysight would have no place in questioning this...
For what reason? A seller on Ebay can impose whatever restrictions for whatever reason they want!
I am not sure I follow. According to the link below eBay says that, once a sale is done, the seller is obligated to complete it following their process and give a reason. 
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/getting-paid/cancelling-transaction?id=4136&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=link&campid=5338108869&toolid=20001&mkevt=1

I am pretty sure there is no mentioned reason stating "customer is not a business" - so, Keysight eBay store would have to lie and pay the eBay fees anyways. Buyers can still leave negative feedback. Do this often and your store is shot down.

Perhaps something not considered by them with this policy change?

Have you noticed that the Keysight listings all say "For professional and industrial use only" in big, red, capital letters?

I'm not convinced that this removes any legal obligations for either Keysight or eBay...    what's next, Ford selling cars marked "professional use only" with no warranties?  lol
Hehehe... That might have the same weight as sellers posting something as "Used" while in the text they say the equipment has a problem here and there, or it was not fully tested or calibrated. I have seen many refunds/returns/discounts done due to that.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 


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