Author Topic: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist  (Read 100271 times)

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #200 on: January 13, 2022, 05:11:29 pm »

The EU Consumer Sales and Guarantees Directive 1999/44/EC (CSGD) establishes the legal guarantee for consumer goods and regulates commercial guarantees. Sellers of consumer goods have to guarantee that the goods are in conformity with the contract for a minimum period of two years after the delivery of the goods.


Keysight appears to have reached the conclusion that they can't afford to offer a "forced" 2 year warranty on all their products to non-professional users.

So by requiring buyers to self-declare as "professional",  they can limit the warranty to anything they want, and that the buyer agrees to.
But this does not apply to US non-commercial customers. I think it is much simpler than everyone is assuming and much less of a problem. Offering support straight from the factory costs money while a lot of sales are made through resellers. It makes way more sense to have support handled by their resellers; let them work for the margin they are making. I've bought all my Keysight gear through a reseller and their support never let me down.

In the case of the EU rules,  it is the reseller that would have to deal with the 2 year conformance requirement for a consumer sale.  Is that what the resellers want, if Keysight is not backing them with 2 years behind the scenes?  ...  I wouldn't,  unless I could mark the price up enough to cover the risk for whatever time Keysight is not covering!
This is standard for all sales through resellers. Resellers have a markup anywhere between 30% to 95% where 30% is at the very low end. So the reseller has room to take a risk. On top of that many manufacturers offer a much longer warranty period. Lots of Keysight gear (including their low end handheld DMMs) comes with a standard 3 year warranty already which is another giant clue that EU warranty regulations have absolutely nothing to do with Keysight's decission to not offer support or sales to non-commercial customers. IIRC Tektronix also offers a 3 year warranty.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 05:18:32 pm by nctnico »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #201 on: January 13, 2022, 05:16:15 pm »
I have purchased something from Keysight ebay store almost a year ago. I was considering to purchase something else recently and I sent an offer yesterday. Then I have been asked the company name etc. and when I said it is for personal use, I am told they can only sell to companies.
This wasn't via eBay, right? Otherwise, Keysight would have no place in questioning this...
For what reason? A seller on Ebay can impose whatever restrictions for whatever reason they want!
I am not sure I follow. According to the link below eBay says that, once a sale is done, the seller is obligated to complete it following their process and give a reason. 
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/getting-paid/cancelling-transaction?id=4136&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=link&campid=5338108869&toolid=20001&mkevt=1
You are leaving out the fine print which basically says that an Ebay seller can cancel an order for any reason they see fit.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #202 on: January 13, 2022, 05:43:36 pm »

The EU Consumer Sales and Guarantees Directive 1999/44/EC (CSGD) establishes the legal guarantee for consumer goods and regulates commercial guarantees. Sellers of consumer goods have to guarantee that the goods are in conformity with the contract for a minimum period of two years after the delivery of the goods.


Keysight appears to have reached the conclusion that they can't afford to offer a "forced" 2 year warranty on all their products to non-professional users.

So by requiring buyers to self-declare as "professional",  they can limit the warranty to anything they want, and that the buyer agrees to.
But this does not apply to US non-commercial customers. I think it is much simpler than everyone is assuming and much less of a problem. Offering support straight from the factory costs money while a lot of sales are made through resellers. It makes way more sense to have support handled by their resellers; let them work for the margin they are making. I've bought all my Keysight gear through a reseller and their support never let me down.

In the case of the EU rules,  it is the reseller that would have to deal with the 2 year conformance requirement for a consumer sale.  Is that what the resellers want, if Keysight is not backing them with 2 years behind the scenes?  ...  I wouldn't,  unless I could mark the price up enough to cover the risk for whatever time Keysight is not covering!
This is standard for all sales through resellers. Resellers have a markup anywhere between 30% to 95% where 30% is at the very low end. So the reseller has room to take a risk. On top of that many manufacturers offer a much longer warranty period. Lots of Keysight gear (including their low end handheld DMMs) comes with a standard 3 year warranty already which is another giant clue am that EU warranty regulations have absolutely nothing to do with Keysight's decission to not offer support or sales to non-commercial customers. IIRC Tektronix also offers a 3 year warranty.

Aaah very good.  I buy your theory that it's all about moving the sales and post-sales support work over to the resellers.

Wonder why now, though, not 50 years ago or whatever? -  maybe resellers have been complaining about Keysight's activities on eBay etc.
 
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Offline metebalci

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #203 on: January 13, 2022, 06:40:01 pm »
I have purchased something from Keysight ebay store almost a year ago. I was considering to purchase something else recently and I sent an offer yesterday. Then I have been asked the company name etc. and when I said it is for personal use, I am told they can only sell to companies.
This wasn't via eBay, right? Otherwise, Keysight would have no place in questioning this...

It was via eBay, with their official store.
 

Offline bson

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #204 on: January 13, 2022, 07:12:06 pm »
Keysight appears to have reached the conclusion that they can't afford to offer a "forced" 2 year warranty on all their products to non-professional users.
It's a LOT more than just a 2-year warranty.

[The]  period for consumers to pull out of any distance purchase (e.g. some-thing bought online) or off-premises purchase (such as when a seller visits the consumer’s home) is extended from the previous minimum 7 days, to a uniform 14 days across the EU. These 14 days start counting from the daythe consumer receives the goods, and the consumer has the right to can-cel the purchase for any reason. When a seller hasn’t clearly informed theconsumer about the right to cancel the purchases, the return period will be extended to a year.

In other words, you can buy a $150k instrument for a project, use it for a week, and then return it for a full refund.  If Keysight doesn't inform you that you can do this, then you can keep using it for a year and then return it.  If you receive a demo, maybe that's also a "sales visit" to your home?

Consumers will now also be allowed to pull out from purchases after solicited visits from sellers and from online auction purchases from professional sellers.

I.e., applies to eBay as well even if flagged "as is".

Traders must refund consumers within 14 days of cancellation, including standard delivery costs. Regarding goods, the trader can postpone the reim-bursement until the goods are returned by the consumer or the consumer provides evidence that these goods have been sent to the trader.

Free rentals, now with free shipping!

Traders wanting consumers to pay for the return of goods after cancellation must clearly inform them beforehand, and give at least an estimate of the cost for returning bulky goods.

I.e., operate under the assumption instruments actually will be returned when the renter is done using them.

 
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #205 on: January 13, 2022, 07:25:17 pm »
But this does not apply to US non-commercial customers. I think it is much simpler than everyone is assuming and much less of a problem. Offering support straight from the factory costs money while a lot of sales are made through resellers. It makes way more sense to have support handled by their resellers; let them work for the margin they are making. I've bought all my Keysight gear through a reseller and their support never let me down.

Explain to us how a reseller is going to properly support the product when the buyer is a hobbyist and Keysight's terms with the reseller explicitly state that the reseller warrants that the buyer is using the equipment only for professional or industrial use.

Explain to us how the reseller is going to get Keysight to repair the equipment under warranty without lying (whether implicitly or explicitly) about the use of the equipment, and thereby violating their explicit contract with Keysight.

This is a very different situation from a car dealership, where the dealership has no such contractual terms with the manufacturer.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 07:27:32 pm by kcbrown »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #206 on: January 13, 2022, 07:34:36 pm »
But this does not apply to US non-commercial customers. I think it is much simpler than everyone is assuming and much less of a problem. Offering support straight from the factory costs money while a lot of sales are made through resellers. It makes way more sense to have support handled by their resellers; let them work for the margin they are making. I've bought all my Keysight gear through a reseller and their support never let me down.

Explain to us how a reseller is going to properly support the product when the buyer is a hobbyist and Keysight's terms with the reseller explicitly state that the reseller warrants that the buyer is using the equipment only for professional or industrial use.

Explain to us how the reseller is going to get Keysight to repair the equipment under warranty without lying (whether implicitly or explicitly) about the use of the equipment, and thereby violating their explicit contract with Keysight.

This is a very different situation from a car dealership, where the dealership has no such contractual terms with the manufacturer.
Please provide documents that actually prove such agreements between Keysight and resellers exist! So far I have seen nothing more but speculation that smells like utter BS to me. For what reason would Keysight not want their equipment in the hands of non-commercial users? That just makes no sense at all and I fail to understand how people even get to this utterly outlandish idea. The only thing that has been established so far is that Keysight no longer wants to deal with non-commercial customers directly. But that doesn't mean they don't want to deal with non-commercially owned equipment at all; service & sales should go through a reseller instead.

The reality is that I can buy Keysight gear from several resellers (including the consumer targeted spin-off from Farnell!) as a consumer today.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 07:51:37 pm by nctnico »
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #207 on: January 13, 2022, 08:10:42 pm »
Please provide documents that actually prove such agreements between Keysight and resellers exist!

Here you go: https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9018-60029/exhibits/9018-60029.pdf

As already mentioned here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight-officially-lost-the-plot-dont-buy-if-youre-a-hobbyist/msg3870629/#msg3870629


Now, note that the wording in the contract states "customer".  I was presuming that meant the reseller (since the reseller is Keysight's "customer", no?), but that may be incorrect on my part.  So you might actually be right, that resellers operate under a different agreement than the one I linked above, and that they'd be able to acquire warranty service from Keysight on behalf of individual hobbyists.


Quote
The reality is that I can buy Keysight gear from several resellers (including the consumer targeted spin-off from Farnell!) as a consumer today.

Buying it and getting warranty repair of it aren't the same thing.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 08:21:01 pm by kcbrown »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #208 on: January 13, 2022, 08:47:30 pm »
Please provide documents that actually prove such agreements between Keysight and resellers exist!

Here you go: https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/9018-60029/exhibits/9018-60029.pdf
These are Keysight's own direct sale T&Cs. Again, come up with a document which explicitly prohibits a reseller to sell Keysight equipment to non-commercial customers. And those resellers are bound to the warranties & services they provide to their customers so getting no service / warranty as a non-commercial user is just FUD.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 08:55:24 pm by nctnico »
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Offline ogden

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #209 on: January 13, 2022, 08:47:54 pm »
Other manufacturers simply do not tell that their test and measurement equipment are not home appliances. Purpose of such disclaimer is to avoid liability in case someone using T&M equipment like RF generator, causes harmful interference or radiates himself with powerful RF till death. Do you guys really think that test & measurement equipment of any other manufacturer is going through all the consumer product certification? Look at cert labels of your TV and your scope (if any) - you will see huge difference ;)

[edit] AFAIK it does not say that Keysight instruments can't be sold to individuals? It does say that whoever bought instrument, shall use it in industrial field only. IMHO huge difference. Anyway I always buy from dealer which I can reach legally, thus as close to my jurisdiction as possible. It obviously means - I do not buy from manufacturer unless it is local farmer. Obviously I expect to get warranty and support from dealer, not manufacturer.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 10:53:46 pm by ogden »
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #210 on: January 13, 2022, 09:05:31 pm »
Keysight appears to have reached the conclusion that they can't afford to offer a "forced" 2 year warranty on all their products to non-professional users.
It's a LOT more than just a 2-year warranty.

[The]  period for consumers to pull out of any distance purchase (e.g. some-thing bought online) or off-premises purchase (such as when a seller visits the consumer’s home) is extended from the previous minimum 7 days, to a uniform 14 days across the EU. These 14 days start counting from the daythe consumer receives the goods, and the consumer has the right to can-cel the purchase for any reason. When a seller hasn’t clearly informed theconsumer about the right to cancel the purchases, the return period will be extended to a year.

In other words, you can buy a $150k instrument for a project, use it for a week, and then return it for a full refund.  If Keysight doesn't inform you that you can do this, then you can keep using it for a year and then return it.  If you receive a demo, maybe that's also a "sales visit" to your home?

Consumers will now also be allowed to pull out from purchases after solicited visits from sellers and from online auction purchases from professional sellers.

I.e., applies to eBay as well even if flagged "as is".

Traders must refund consumers within 14 days of cancellation, including standard delivery costs. Regarding goods, the trader can postpone the reim-bursement until the goods are returned by the consumer or the consumer provides evidence that these goods have been sent to the trader.

Free rentals, now with free shipping!

Traders wanting consumers to pay for the return of goods after cancellation must clearly inform them beforehand, and give at least an estimate of the cost for returning bulky goods.

I.e., operate under the assumption instruments actually will be returned when the renter is done using them.

Pretty onerous! All of those problems go away if you sell to a professional user / business instead of a regular consumer. 

Surely that has to make a significant difference to the price that you charge in each case?

 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #211 on: January 13, 2022, 09:34:28 pm »
These are Keysight's own direct sale T&Cs. Again, come up with a document which explicitly prohibits a reseller to sell Keysight equipment to non-commercial customers. And those resellers are bound to the warranties & services they provide to their customers so getting no service / warranty as a non-commercial user is just FUD.

Yeah, you may have missed my edit, where I recognize that it says "customer", and that this might not be applicable to resellers.

If it's not applicable to resellers then it's just going to depend on the contract with the reseller, and I've got nothing that indicates what Keysight's position is on resellers selling to non-commercial customers.  And absent such indication, I have to presume that resellers will be able to arrange warranty repairs on any equipment they sell, even when that equipment is sold to non-commercial customers.


 
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Offline ogden

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #212 on: January 13, 2022, 10:48:08 pm »
Yeah, you may have missed my edit, where I recognize that it says "customer", and that this might not be applicable to resellers.

Resellers has their own agreements. "Terms of sale" is always about end user of the "Products, Service, Professional Services and the license of Software by Keysight Technologies, Inc".
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #213 on: January 14, 2022, 04:40:31 pm »
Pretty onerous! All of those problems go away if you sell to a professional user / business instead of a regular consumer. 

Surely that has to make a significant difference to the price that you charge in each case?
And that is where the whole core of this discussions stands - how much price overhead an A-brand can carry to have a financial net positive while honoring warranties and service agreements for a market segment that expects the lowest retail price? Sure, in a specialized forum such as this one, there will be many voices that are willing to value quality and services from top tier brands, but I am pretty sure it is a drop in the ocean when compared to the bulk of the market.

Specifically for Keysight, I see two things that might be going on:

- Since the first inception of the incredibly bold Keysight month marketing campaign, I always had this question in my mind: how many years were given for this division to invest in the broad mass market? Where is the ROI, given the B-brands are quickly catching up in broad reach (through e-commerce), quality and features at a lower cost? Will longer warranties, service contracts and spare parts availability be enough argument to attract customers to buy their products? After a few years into this, I suspect that someone recalculated the ROI and decided to de-emphasize direct sales as the marketing campaign alone did not return a net positive.

- With the introduction of the entry-level product line, myself (and many others around here) also asked how successful will this be in face of the quite popular low cost brands. The DSO1000X series uses the praised Keysight ASIC that differentiated their other product lines for many years, thus at first glance would be a slam dunk of usability when compared to others - however, whenever someone from the mass market asks on a forum like this for an opinion, rarely sees their products suggested due to a perceived low "bang-per-buck" ratio. Sure, the other brands have other features deemed more useful (and quite a few of them are), therefore I can't help but think that Keysight realized this might have been a miscalculation on their part - at least for the mass market (education might still be fine). 

You can bet they are yearly calculating their ROI on both fronts and the shifts this year might be a reflection of a negative ROI - or a change in management, which would just change the threshold for providing investments on this front. A change to the rep/disty business model will carry forward higher costs to the end user, thus potentially killing this product line altogether.

Not working there I can only speculate but, based on my experience, that is not something that would surprise me.
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #214 on: January 14, 2022, 04:56:37 pm »
After so many years of amazing grassroots efforts by many great Keysight employees on this platform, it surprises me a lot that we have not had one official (or in-official) comment from anyone at Keysight.

It seems like they are throwing away the wonderful effort of many years of hard work.

I can only imagine that some of these great Keysight people are shaking their heads in disbelieve but have been forced to no longer post here on eevblog.

Maybe Dave can bring some light to this and ask Keysight directly?
But maybe even Dave is instructed to not say anything, even if he knows.

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #215 on: January 14, 2022, 05:15:49 pm »
- With the introduction of the entry-level product line, myself (and many others around here) also asked how successful will this be in face of the quite popular low cost brands. The DSO1000X series uses the praised Keysight ASIC that differentiated their other product lines for many years, thus at first glance would be a slam dunk of usability when compared to others - however, whenever someone from the mass market asks on a forum like this for an opinion, rarely sees their products suggested due to a perceived low "bang-per-buck" ratio. Sure, the other brands have other features deemed more useful (and quite a few of them are), therefore I can't help but think that Keysight realized this might have been a miscalculation on their part - at least for the mass market (education might still be fine). 
Define mass market. You have to realise that this forum has a huge bias towards Rigol and Siglent. A brand like GW Instek is hardly ever mentioned. However, if you look at revenue you'll see that GW Instek is bigger than Rigol and Siglent combined.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 06:50:03 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline metebalci

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #216 on: January 14, 2022, 05:35:33 pm »
Other manufacturers simply do not tell that their test and measurement equipment are not home appliances. Purpose of such disclaimer is to avoid liability in case someone using T&M equipment like RF generator, causes harmful interference or radiates himself with powerful RF till death. Do you guys really think that test & measurement equipment of any other manufacturer is going through all the consumer product certification? Look at cert labels of your TV and your scope (if any) - you will see huge difference ;)

[edit] AFAIK it does not say that Keysight instruments can't be sold to individuals? It does say that whoever bought instrument, shall use it in industrial field only. IMHO huge difference. Anyway I always buy from dealer which I can reach legally, thus as close to my jurisdiction as possible. It obviously means - I do not buy from manufacturer unless it is local farmer. Obviously I expect to get warranty and support from dealer, not manufacturer.

I was wondering this since it is possible to buy Keysight or any other product from resellers. Getting support from the reseller or dealer is OK for sales and after sales when the item is still under warranty but I wonder if the reseller has any obligation beyond that. In other words, can I send a product to Keysight for repair etc. as an individual even if I cannot buy something from them directly ?
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #217 on: January 14, 2022, 06:02:31 pm »
Pretty onerous! All of those problems go away if you sell to a professional user / business instead of a regular consumer. 

Surely that has to make a significant difference to the price that you charge in each case?
And that is where the whole core of this discussions stands - how much price overhead an A-brand can carry to have a financial net positive while honoring warranties and service agreements for a market segment that expects the lowest retail price? Sure, in a specialized forum such as this one, there will be many voices that are willing to value quality and services from top tier brands, but I am pretty sure it is a drop in the ocean when compared to the bulk of the market.

Specifically for Keysight, I see two things that might be going on:

- Since the first inception of the incredibly bold Keysight month marketing campaign, I always had this question in my mind: how many years were given for this division to invest in the broad mass market? Where is the ROI, given the B-brands are quickly catching up in broad reach (through e-commerce), quality and features at a lower cost? Will longer warranties, service contracts and spare parts availability be enough argument to attract customers to buy their products? After a few years into this, I suspect that someone recalculated the ROI and decided to de-emphasize direct sales as the marketing campaign alone did not return a net positive.

- With the introduction of the entry-level product line, myself (and many others around here) also asked how successful will this be in face of the quite popular low cost brands. The DSO1000X series uses the praised Keysight ASIC that differentiated their other product lines for many years, thus at first glance would be a slam dunk of usability when compared to others - however, whenever someone from the mass market asks on a forum like this for an opinion, rarely sees their products suggested due to a perceived low "bang-per-buck" ratio. Sure, the other brands have other features deemed more useful (and quite a few of them are), therefore I can't help but think that Keysight realized this might have been a miscalculation on their part - at least for the mass market (education might still be fine). 

You can bet they are yearly calculating their ROI on both fronts and the shifts this year might be a reflection of a negative ROI - or a change in management, which would just change the threshold for providing investments on this front. A change to the rep/disty business model will carry forward higher costs to the end user, thus potentially killing this product line altogether.

Not working there I can only speculate but, based on my experience, that is not something that would surprise me.

Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus all show that A-brands can thrive with a healthy price premium.  They don't try to grow sales by offering cheaper prices, they do it by making customers feel they are getting something for their money!  Things like reputation, styling, "feel", quality, and service differentiates them.

Introducing a "low end of the range" model range can be a good idea (e.g. Mercedes A-class or BMW 1-series).  This gives entry level aspirational buyers a way into the brand.  This is how I always saw the DSO1000X series: the entry level to a premium brand.

As to why this series doesn't get recommended much...   goes back to your first point about what kind of buyer makes up the bulk of the market.  Most hobby/private buyers are looking for acceptably well performing tools at the lowest possible absolute price.  Keysight is probably OK with only picking up a relatively small percentage of aspirational buyers from this pool!   



 

 
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Offline Bud

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #218 on: January 14, 2022, 06:03:48 pm »
You have to realise that this forum has a huge bias towards Rigol and Siglent.

True- I have a huge bias towards Rigol - read my signature under this post.
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Offline armandine2

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #219 on: January 14, 2022, 08:10:10 pm »

oh! that says uploaded just an hour ago! thank you

not so intriguing - Dave put a link to it on this forum!

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #220 on: January 14, 2022, 08:40:02 pm »
Other manufacturers simply do not tell that their test and measurement equipment are not home appliances. Purpose of such disclaimer is to avoid liability in case someone using T&M equipment like RF generator, causes harmful interference or radiates himself with powerful RF till death. Do you guys really think that test & measurement equipment of any other manufacturer is going through all the consumer product certification? Look at cert labels of your TV and your scope (if any) - you will see huge difference ;)

[edit] AFAIK it does not say that Keysight instruments can't be sold to individuals? It does say that whoever bought instrument, shall use it in industrial field only. IMHO huge difference. Anyway I always buy from dealer which I can reach legally, thus as close to my jurisdiction as possible. It obviously means - I do not buy from manufacturer unless it is local farmer. Obviously I expect to get warranty and support from dealer, not manufacturer.

I was wondering this since it is possible to buy Keysight or any other product from resellers. Getting support from the reseller or dealer is OK for sales and after sales when the item is still under warranty but I wonder if the reseller has any obligation beyond that. In other words, can I send a product to Keysight for repair etc. as an individual even if I cannot buy something from them directly ?
No, a reseller is your primary contact. But ofcourse you can choose any reseller / service center you want to have your equipment repaired or calibrated. Again: why the persistence to send equipment to Keysight directly???  :palm:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #221 on: January 14, 2022, 09:00:16 pm »
Other manufacturers simply do not tell that their test and measurement equipment are not home appliances. Purpose of such disclaimer is to avoid liability in case someone using T&M equipment like RF generator, causes harmful interference or radiates himself with powerful RF till death. Do you guys really think that test & measurement equipment of any other manufacturer is going through all the consumer product certification? Look at cert labels of your TV and your scope (if any) - you will see huge difference ;)

[edit] AFAIK it does not say that Keysight instruments can't be sold to individuals? It does say that whoever bought instrument, shall use it in industrial field only. IMHO huge difference. Anyway I always buy from dealer which I can reach legally, thus as close to my jurisdiction as possible. It obviously means - I do not buy from manufacturer unless it is local farmer. Obviously I expect to get warranty and support from dealer, not manufacturer.

I was wondering this since it is possible to buy Keysight or any other product from resellers. Getting support from the reseller or dealer is OK for sales and after sales when the item is still under warranty but I wonder if the reseller has any obligation beyond that. In other words, can I send a product to Keysight for repair etc. as an individual even if I cannot buy something from them directly ?
No, a reseller is your primary contact. But ofcourse you can choose any reseller / service center you want to have your equipment repaired or calibrated. Again: why the persistence to send equipment to Keysight directly???  :palm:

It's the feel-good factor, or perhaps a fear of losing the magic smoke.   E.g. high end camera owners are the same:  they would 100x rather have their camera repaired by Nikon than a third party vendor!
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #222 on: January 14, 2022, 09:03:27 pm »
In that case I hope they don't find out repairs are often outsourced. A few years ago I visited one of Samsung's official service centers in the Netherlands. It is a small shop somewhere in an obscure mall. When I saw it I thought: wow, I've found Louis Rosmann's Dutch branch of his repair shop! From what I could see they had all the equipment to make component level repairs though.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 09:06:03 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #223 on: January 14, 2022, 09:06:13 pm »
In that case I hope they don't find out repairs are often outsourced. A few years ago I visited Samsung's official service center in the Netherlands. It is a small shop somewhere in an obscure mall. When I saw it I thought: wow, I've found Louis Rosmann's Dutch branch of his repair shop!

In which case we have the solution -   The third party vendors have to stress that Keysight is doing the repair....  and as long as the customer gets a Keysight invoice at the end, everyone will be happy!  :D
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #224 on: January 14, 2022, 09:18:13 pm »
Define mass market. You have to realise that this forum has a huge bias towards Rigol and Siglent. A brand like GW Instek is hardly ever mentioned. However, if you look at revenue you'll see that GW Instek is bigger than Rigol and Siglent combined.

It's odd that Instek isn't mentioned more often, particularly in light of their GDS-1054B, which is excellent in many ways and priced very well.


With respect to Keysight and resellers, the obvious question comes up: what does someone who bought directly from Keysight before they imposed their current terms do to get warranty service?  A reseller is going to lose money on that because the cost of that transaction is baked into the reseller's profit from the sale, but the reseller didn't make the sale in the first place, so the reseller has no incentive (that I'm aware of) to handle the warranty transaction save perhaps for future good will.  Similarly, how is someone who bought from a now-defunct reseller supposed to get warranty service?

Automobile dealerships perform the actual warranty repairs and get reimbursed by the manufacturer for that.  T&M resellers don't do any such thing, so there's no reason to believe they'll be reimbursed by Keysight for the transaction.
 


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