Author Topic: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist  (Read 100257 times)

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #225 on: January 14, 2022, 10:09:56 pm »
Define mass market. You have to realise that this forum has a huge bias towards Rigol and Siglent. A brand like GW Instek is hardly ever mentioned. However, if you look at revenue you'll see that GW Instek is bigger than Rigol and Siglent combined.

It's odd that Instek isn't mentioned more often, particularly in light of their GDS-1054B, which is excellent in many ways and priced very well.


With respect to Keysight and resellers, the obvious question comes up: what does someone who bought directly from Keysight before they imposed their current terms do to get warranty service?  A reseller is going to lose money on that because the cost of that transaction is baked into the reseller's profit from the sale, but the reseller didn't make the sale in the first place, so the reseller has no incentive (that I'm aware of) to handle the warranty transaction save perhaps for future good will.  Similarly, how is someone who bought from a now-defunct reseller supposed to get warranty service?

Automobile dealerships perform the actual warranty repairs and get reimbursed by the manufacturer for that.  T&M resellers don't do any such thing, so there's no reason to believe they'll be reimbursed by Keysight for the transaction.
That is just more speculation. Back that up by documents!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #226 on: January 14, 2022, 10:41:30 pm »
That is just more speculation. Back that up by documents!

I don't have documents.  I did contact TestEquity (https://testequity.com) directly via the phone and asked them straight up whether, if I have a warranty issue with a piece of equipment that I purchased directly from Keysight, they would handle the warranty issue.  The answer was a flat-out "no" and, furthermore, they stated that all warranty issues, in particular on equipment I purchased from them, would have to go directly to the manufacturer after 30 days from purchase.

TestEquity is a Keysight-authorized distributor: https://www.testequity.com/faq#authorized

Satisfied?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 10:49:00 pm by kcbrown »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #227 on: January 14, 2022, 10:58:10 pm »
That is just more speculation. Back that up by documents!

I don't have documents.  I did contact TestEquity (https://testequity.com) directly via the phone and asked them straight up whether, if I have a warranty issue with a piece of equipment that I purchased directly from Keysight, they would handle the warranty issue.  The answer was a flat-out "no" and, furthermore, they stated that all warranty issues, in particular on equipment I purchased from them, would have to go directly to the manufacturer after 30 days from purchase.
So these guys are a reseller to avoid. Good to know.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #228 on: January 14, 2022, 11:06:48 pm »
So these guys are a reseller to avoid. Good to know.

Maybe.  Since your claim is that resellers will handle warranty claims from non-customers, and since I have provided one example of a known Keysight authorized reseller that will not do so, it's now on you to prove that resellers will handle such claims.

So: which vendors will handle such claims?


I should note that TestEquity is the first and, so far, only reseller I have contacted about this.  I contacted them because I knew that they'd be an authorized reseller and because they sell both low-end scopes (e.g., the DSOX1000 line) and relatively high-end scopes (e.g., the DSOS804A) for many A brands (Tektronix, R&S, Instek, Fluke).  That I managed to find a relatively high-end reseller that won't do what you claim resellers will do on the first try makes me believe that many resellers won't do what you claim they will.  I can ask the same question of other Keysight authorized resellers, but the presence of one that also deals in relatively high-end equipment is sufficient to make me deeply suspicious of the correctness of your claim.

Again, I must point out that this is an authorized reseller, not some fly-by-night operation.  They appear on Keysight's list of authorized resellers: https://www.keysight.com/us/en/partnerfinder.html.  Since they will not do what you claim, it is clear that at least some resellers are not contractually obligated by Keysight to field warranty claims.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 11:29:55 pm by kcbrown »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #229 on: January 14, 2022, 11:26:18 pm »
So these guys are a reseller to avoid. Good to know.

Maybe.  Since your claim is that resellers will handle warranty claims from non-customers, and since I have provided one example of a known Keysight authorized reseller that will not do so, it's now on you to prove that resellers will handle such claims.

So: which vendors will handle such claims?
So far I didn't have any problems with Acal BFI handling warranty issues. Never had to deal with Keysight directly. In general I'd avoid a reseller redirecting warranty issues to the manufacturer; it is not what I pay them for.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #230 on: January 14, 2022, 11:30:56 pm »
So far I didn't have any problems with Acal BFI handling warranty issues. Never had to deal with Keysight directly. In general I'd avoid a reseller redirecting warranty issues to the manufacturer; it is not what I pay them for.

You didn't have any problems with them handling Keysight warranty issues as a non-customer?  Because that's the question on the table here.

If you have a good working relationship with them, you should call them up and ask them if they'd handle warranty claims on Keysight equipment that wasn't purchased from them, by someone who hasn't ever purchased from them before.   Should be interesting to see what they say.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 11:40:42 pm by kcbrown »
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #231 on: January 14, 2022, 11:40:39 pm »
So: which vendors will handle such claims?

US and EU rules are going to be a lot different.  Resellers in the EU have pretty well defined obligations as the actual responsible party, whereas in the US resellers are more likely to be considered 'middlemen' that aren't legally responsible for warranty or liability issues, although this varies widely by situation (product) and state.

Transcat is US Keysight reseller that doesn't wash their hands of you once you make a purchase.

https://www.transcat.com/return-policy

 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #232 on: January 14, 2022, 11:41:51 pm »
- With the introduction of the entry-level product line, myself (and many others around here) also asked how successful will this be in face of the quite popular low cost brands. The DSO1000X series uses the praised Keysight ASIC that differentiated their other product lines for many years, thus at first glance would be a slam dunk of usability when compared to others - however, whenever someone from the mass market asks on a forum like this for an opinion, rarely sees their products suggested due to a perceived low "bang-per-buck" ratio. Sure, the other brands have other features deemed more useful (and quite a few of them are), therefore I can't help but think that Keysight realized this might have been a miscalculation on their part - at least for the mass market (education might still be fine). 
Define mass market. You have to realise that this forum has a huge bias towards Rigol and Siglent. A brand like GW Instek is hardly ever mentioned. However, if you look at revenue you'll see that GW Instek is bigger than Rigol and Siglent combined.
Mass market is everything that abides by the laws of consumer protection - retail, not B2B or negotiated contracts. Things you can buy over the counter.

For many years the bias towards these brands has reduced a lot around here. I participate in forums where Fnirsi is considered a Rigol and Rigol as R&S; other forums and discussion groups I attend have B-brands recommended all the time. If there is a forum biased towards Instek, Keysight, R&S and others and we could have a more balanced view; otherwise, this is what is widely available. Besides, unfortunately revenue alone means very little to get an idea on market coverage.

Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus all show that A-brands can thrive with a healthy price premium.  They don't try to grow sales by offering cheaper prices, they do it by making customers feel they are getting something for their money!  Things like reputation, styling, "feel", quality, and service differentiates them.

Introducing a "low end of the range" model range can be a good idea (e.g. Mercedes A-class or BMW 1-series).  This gives entry level aspirational buyers a way into the brand.  This is how I always saw the DSO1000X series: the entry level to a premium brand.
I agree with you regarding the differentiation. However, these brands are not refusing to fix your car, they are just charging $200 to change the oil of your A-class Merc - according to the reports here, Keysight is not giving you the option to change the oil and the reps/disties will not commit without mfg backing or do this for free. 

As to why this series doesn't get recommended much...   goes back to your first point about what kind of buyer makes up the bulk of the market.  Most hobby/private buyers are looking for acceptably well performing tools at the lowest possible absolute price.  Keysight is probably OK with only picking up a relatively small percentage of aspirational buyers from this pool!
Fully agree, although never forget that management changes happen and can cause tectonic shifts in the approach to the mass market. Highvoltage's post is on point: the absence of the regulars here may have signs of such shift. I have been in the same shoes in the past and had to deal with the frustration of a market segment that I had to leave orphaned. It is not fun to do this.
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Offline kcbrown

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #233 on: January 14, 2022, 11:50:43 pm »
US and EU rules are going to be a lot different.  Resellers in the EU have pretty well defined obligations as the actual responsible party, whereas in the US resellers are more likely to be considered 'middlemen' that aren't legally responsible for warranty or liability issues, although this varies widely by situation (product) and state.

That may be, but even in the US, Keysight is apparently demanding proof that one is a business.


Quote
Transcat is US Keysight reseller that doesn't wash their hands of you once you make a purchase.

https://www.transcat.com/return-policy

Ah, very nice.  But: will they do that for equipment not purchased from them?   That is the real question on the table here.

Nico's claim is that resellers will behave like car dealerships.  Any given car dealership will handle warranty claims from anyone who purchased the dealer's brand, irrespective of whether it was from that dealership or not.   And that is most certainly in question, even in the EU.  While the EU may demand that resellers be responsible for handling anything purchased from them, that's vastly different from demanding that they handle anything from a brand they offer for sale even when it wasn't purchased from them.


Quite clearly, at least some resellers are not obligated by Keysight's contract with them to handle warranty claims from their customers, much less all Keysight owners.  That is a fundamental difference between T&M resellers and auto dealerships, the latter of which are contractually obligated (or, at least, financially incentivized) to handle warranty claims by all owners of the brand.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 12:02:50 am by kcbrown »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #234 on: January 15, 2022, 12:07:30 am »
It seems doubtful to me that Keysight would really leave customers high and dry with respect to equipment they have already purchased directly from Keysight, even if they change the model for future purchasers...   That would be so unprofessional that it could only happen to a company in severe decay...   on the other hand, look at what happened to Boeing...
 

Offline kcbrown

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #235 on: January 15, 2022, 02:04:26 am »
It seems doubtful to me that Keysight would really leave customers high and dry with respect to equipment they have already purchased directly from Keysight, even if they change the model for future purchasers...   That would be so unprofessional that it could only happen to a company in severe decay...   on the other hand, look at what happened to Boeing...

Even if the equipment wasn't purchased directly from Keysight, it may still be problematic.  Nothing prevents resellers from going out of business.  Keysight seems to demand that one be a business in order to get direct support from them, and that could (and perhaps even would) make it difficult if not impossible for an individual to get warranty or repair support from them when the reseller they purchased from has gone out of business, seeing how distributors are under no apparent obligation to provide service to people who didn't purchase the equipment from them.

Of course, providing such service anyway might well be a good business move on the part of the reseller, but that would make it a matter of their choice only.
 

Offline Zucca

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #236 on: January 15, 2022, 02:26:10 am »
In a wide range of cultures, the color white symbolizes purity and innocence.
That's why the new Keysight device generation is black.
Can't know what you don't love. St. Augustine
Can't love what you don't know. Zucca
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #237 on: January 15, 2022, 02:42:59 am »
In a wide range of cultures, the color white symbolizes purity and innocence.
That's why the new Keysight device generation is black.

Ah, that's it...   they've fallen to the Imperial Stormtroopers, and the new ceo is - Darth!
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #238 on: January 15, 2022, 04:30:39 am »
In a lot of movies, it's the baddies that wear all white.

Anyway, the thing I do not understand, is why does not Keysight simply charge more for private customers?  I don't see anybody demanding they take any kind of financial hit or risk here!

The thing is, not all professionals are incorporated, or want to be incorporated.  I'm not an EE, only a bumblefuck hobbyist on the electronics side, but I am a professional software developer and physicist, and telling the likes of me to not use Keysight gear because we won't have any access to support, spare parts, or vendor calibration services, is just shooting themselves in the foot.

I'd love to hear what is the true internal reasoning here.  (I've already posted that I do believe it is salespeople hoodwinking the leadership that this is a good thing, simply because the salespeople want to keep business simple and in a sector where their personal comissions from sales are higher, even though it will damage the company in the long term.  Again, I've seen how variants of this have played out before, and it is sad to see such obvious mistakes are being repeated again and again.)
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #239 on: January 15, 2022, 04:41:48 am »
If it someone was trying to set up Lissajous curves on a scope by asking "How do I make those squiggly line patterns?" then I would expect them to be given short shrift.  Was it something as trivial as this?  I don't know.


I'd like to find out the nature of the support that was sought - but nowhere is this information provided.


This also begs the question: What are the various areas that come under the heading of "Support"?
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #240 on: January 15, 2022, 06:08:51 am »
I'd like to find out the nature of the support that was sought - but nowhere is this information provided.
It would be nice for TwistedTransistor (and others) to clarify this –– exactly what did they ask from Keysight tech support? –– but the point here is kinda that it never even came up with Keysight's response.

Keysight simply stated that they "are unable to provide [TwistedTransistor] with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent proof of business license."

To me, this indicates the issue is not the contents of the support request, but the fact that the person contacting them did not provide a VAT ID or equivalent proof of business license.  But it would be very useful to know what kind of support others have asked from Keysight when getting such responses, most definitely.
 

Offline JohanH

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #241 on: January 15, 2022, 09:57:46 am »
Not sure if this is useful, but I also verified this by contacting their support (in Finland) and asked to buy a spare part, telling them the part number.

The response was that the part is available, but they need:
 Name and address of the company
 Company email where they can send the offer.

I then asked if they sell to non-businesses. The response was the blanket text (translated into Finnish):

Quote
Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use. While we thank you for your interest in our products and/or services, we are unable to provide you with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent  proof of business license.

So, maybe I will create a business at some point, but I wouldn't bother right now. Have dealt with owning a cooperative style company that didn't have any business for a number of years and it was a pain in the a** to deal with the tax authorities until it finally got erased from all registers. Now maybe a one-man business is a bit easier to maintain (easier to gather the signatures of the board of directors for sure). Seems that registering a trade name is 60 €. You can also be a private entrepreneur for free. That might be an option, but technically you don't have a company name.

From their response, I also understood that they didn't care who did the request. So I could have asked a random company to handle it for me from here on and provided their address etc. But my point was rather to verify the thing.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 10:02:54 am by jukk »
 
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #242 on: January 15, 2022, 10:35:53 am »
To me, this indicates the issue is not the contents of the support request, but the fact that the person contacting them did not provide a VAT ID or equivalent proof of business license.
That could be as simple as it appears on the surface - or it could be Keysight's escape response.  You know, the sort of thing you would say to save yourself from a WOFTAM.

Quote
But it would be very useful to know what kind of support others have asked from Keysight when getting such responses, most definitely.
This sort of clarification is, indeed, why I asked.
 
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Offline metebalci

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #243 on: January 15, 2022, 11:16:27 am »
Other manufacturers simply do not tell that their test and measurement equipment are not home appliances. Purpose of such disclaimer is to avoid liability in case someone using T&M equipment like RF generator, causes harmful interference or radiates himself with powerful RF till death. Do you guys really think that test & measurement equipment of any other manufacturer is going through all the consumer product certification? Look at cert labels of your TV and your scope (if any) - you will see huge difference ;)

[edit] AFAIK it does not say that Keysight instruments can't be sold to individuals? It does say that whoever bought instrument, shall use it in industrial field only. IMHO huge difference. Anyway I always buy from dealer which I can reach legally, thus as close to my jurisdiction as possible. It obviously means - I do not buy from manufacturer unless it is local farmer. Obviously I expect to get warranty and support from dealer, not manufacturer.

I was wondering this since it is possible to buy Keysight or any other product from resellers. Getting support from the reseller or dealer is OK for sales and after sales when the item is still under warranty but I wonder if the reseller has any obligation beyond that. In other words, can I send a product to Keysight for repair etc. as an individual even if I cannot buy something from them directly ?
No, a reseller is your primary contact. But ofcourse you can choose any reseller / service center you want to have your equipment repaired or calibrated. Again: why the persistence to send equipment to Keysight directly???  :palm:

I dont have any particular interest to buy directly from Keysight or send something for a repair to them. Just trying to understand. Independent service or repair or calibration center is a different thing, I can send anything to anywhere who says they can fix it. I question the issue with the manufacturer and the reseller. Maybe I bought the product second hand and have no connection with the original reseller, or I moved to a different country where original reseller has no presence.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #244 on: January 15, 2022, 12:26:26 pm »
To me, this indicates the issue is not the contents of the support request, but the fact that the person contacting them did not provide a VAT ID or equivalent proof of business license.
That could be as simple as it appears on the surface - or it could be Keysight's escape response.  You know, the sort of thing you would say to save yourself from a WOFTAM.
I agree. There is a lot of jumping-to-conclusions going on in this thread without knowing the precise circumstances. The OP hasn't clarified what kind of support request was denied by Keysight.

Look at this recent thread for example: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-spd3303x-e-cant-set-it-to-current-mode/ OP buys a PSU, sets the output voltage to 0 and expects current to flow from the PSU. Not saying the OP for the thread I linked to is stupid; he/she just doesn't got the basics of electricity yet. I can imagine that at some point manufacturers don't want to deal with these kind of support requests.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 01:40:44 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline MegaVolt

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #245 on: January 15, 2022, 04:41:20 pm »
I can imagine that at some point manufacturers don't want to deal with these kind of support requests.
You need to write the required FAQ once and refer to it.  it will take very little time and will solve all the issues.  There would be a desire to solve them.
 

Offline Calvin

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #246 on: January 15, 2022, 05:20:04 pm »
Hi,

I really had a giggle when I read that reply "Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use...."
It sounds so utter BS!
What is professional use anyway? When I´ve got a degree in EE and work as an EE and also have my personal mancave .... will I only work halftime professionally, and halftime un-professionally?  |O
And of course do I know that my Osci is no domestic vacuum cleaner and of course can´t I boil my morning egg with it.  :palm:
And I definitely don´t probe myself personally neither in SE nor differential style.  :-DD
So what´s that rubbish talk?

regards
Calvin

btw. I´d like to suggest that Keysight ads are taken off of this site, if the F...you attitude should be proven true.
..... it builds character!
 

Offline madires

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #247 on: January 15, 2022, 05:24:31 pm »
I wonder what Keysight's stance on Right to Repair is. A quick search didn't bing up anything useful.
 

Offline TaylorD93

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #248 on: January 15, 2022, 05:34:54 pm »
well to be fair, any of my old HP gear ive put in the Part numbers on the Keysight website and have always found full service info with Bills of Materials etc.

That said, its all 20-30+ year old kit.

Would be interesting to hear what they would say about newer kit. Then again, if they're selling to a Company, then they would probably say send it to Keysight or an approved repairer, as im not aware of many companies which would take the risk of opening and repairing the kit themselves unless they can self calibrate to ISO.

I suspect that joe public will be told its professional equipment so, as per above, send it to an approved repairer as a "get out" for right to repair.
 

Offline 0culus

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #249 on: January 15, 2022, 05:35:09 pm »
I wonder what Keysight's stance on Right to Repair is. A quick search didn't bing up anything useful.

It's safe to say they consider all the service information a trade secret. This started in the 1990s when HP was on the downslope. If you're lucky, you'll get a block diagram. No more. The only reason they host old service info for HP stuff is someone in the company spearheaded it. And they have progressively made it harder to find and get to. You now have to put your personal information in to download the PDFs.
 


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