Author Topic: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist  (Read 100218 times)

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Online 2N3055

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #325 on: February 17, 2022, 09:29:35 am »
Why are deans contributing in derailing this thread?  :-//  I thought I'd entered the wrong thread...

Thank you for being the voice of reason..
I will stop.. I apologize for getting carried away.. Mediterranean blood and such...

Quite right. I worked before with Agilent so I just assumed that I buy it and then use it and that is all. It never occurred to me that I will ever need something more a.k.a manufacturer support.
Or to put it in some popular saying "I was born in a Mercedes" so I am naive into believing that all businesses think on long term.

So this is the pattern. That is why I am buying KS now. But if I am wrong about KS and I will need their support too please advise before I make another mistake.

PS: Should we move to another thread ?


No need to stop or move. Just to get back to the topic. Keysight support related topics are exactly the topic here.

Keysight officially does not support private customers. Also their level of support for business customers is directly connected to subscriptions now.

If you buy Keysight scope and you need support, in warranty you will speak with point of sale (dealer you bought it from). At the moment you still can download firmware and basic support documents from Keysight.  Other support is not provided to private customers by Keysight.  Dealers might (should) step in and help.
As a small company, I recently contacted them about a bug (still in warranty then) and they politely noted me that they will respond to my 2 tickets for free  as a token of goodwill because it was my first time and I am a customer, but from now on, I either have to pay for support contract subscription, or will be charged by the ticket.
To be clear I reported a bug in networking stack and a confusion in documentation that made it unclear do I have right to an option or not. Both their mistakes. And, yeah, network problem won't be fixed, because it doesn't happen all the time.

Mythical glorious HP and Agilent of yore is no more...

That doesn't mean they have bad support. Their paid support for large customers is superb. But they basically pulled out of entry level market, including hobby/private users.
To be honest, they never did officially target that market, even before. 
Back then business was good, run by different values. They had this sense of gallantry and it was a matter of honour to support their products. It was token of respect to their creations and customers, wherever they are..

Now it is pure corporate politics, like everybody else.. Carla style... Only loyalty is to profit.
Good for them, bad for us...
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #326 on: February 17, 2022, 03:34:47 pm »

Mythical glorious HP and Agilent of yore is no more...


.... Now it is pure corporate politics, like everybody else.. Carla style... Only loyalty is to profit.
Good for them, bad for us...

After the Agilent split I asked a senior Keysight executive if the split was to allow Keysight to pursue a back to the old HP style instrument company, the answer was "Absolutely!!".

Now many years later Keysight has disintegrated into just another short sighted, Wall St manipulated company, nothing like the old HP.

Here's the new moto for most US companies today:

Drive profit & stock for the shareholder/executives value, damn the (little) customers, full speed ahead, Titanic Mode  |O

Thankful for being around long enough to experience the HP and Tektronix of old, and equally painful to see them today :palm:

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
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Offline Bud

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #327 on: February 17, 2022, 04:05:56 pm »
But they basically pulled out of entry level market, including hobby/private users.
To be honest, they never did officially target that market, even before.  .

There you go. So it is not "Carla style", it is return to the original Dave and Bill style....
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Offline Bassman59

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #328 on: February 17, 2022, 04:53:35 pm »
If "Siglent" is the brand name on the product and in the documentation, then Siglent is responsible for supporting the product, including firmware updates.

To claim otherwise is ... oh, I don't know, being a shill.
It's not, there's no indication on a rebrand other than on maybe the PCB who the OEM is....rebrands work like that.  ;)

I've never heard of Axiomet.

User rteodor wrote, "I got burned with a Siglent rebranded Axiomet oscilloscope." I took that to mean that Siglent was the name on the product, and the product was actually manufactured by Axiomet.

Apparently, this particular product is branded as Axiomet.

The point is, of course, that the brand name on the product is responsible for the support, not whatever OEM/OED actually designed and made the thing.

You, as a shill, don't need to be snarky with the professionals around here.
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #329 on: February 17, 2022, 04:55:12 pm »
But they basically pulled out of entry level market, including hobby/private users.
To be honest, they never did officially target that market, even before.  .

There you go. So it is not "Carla style", it is return to the original Dave and Bill style....

No, it is Carla style now.

Dave and Bill was old school gentleman style. I know they also loved making money and it was purpose of the starting the company, but there was certain etiquette in it...
They didn't target entry level market but they respected all the users. It was an honor thing. And also business was good, they had good government contracts where they had to provide all those detailed documents and support structure was put in place. So if you have it, it's not a problem to use it for everybody if it's already mostly paid for..

As I said, big customers will get their money worth, no doubt. And it is good for shareholders. They are not charity. And they have full right and responsibility to shareholders to pursue the maximum profit path...

And us that are not in that picture shouldn't put our head in a sand and accept the situation as it is....
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 
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Offline E-Design

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #330 on: February 17, 2022, 04:58:34 pm »
Tektronix does not have a policy in place specifying support for the size or market space of a customer. If you are a customer, whether you have bought 1 unit or 1 million, some kind of support is offered to you.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #331 on: February 17, 2022, 05:27:07 pm »
It is interesting to see some complaining about Keysight's service level and happily buy equipment from cheaper brands.  >:D

You can't have it both ways though. If you vote with your wallet that a lower service level is OK with you, then don't complain that you get what you voted for!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #332 on: February 17, 2022, 06:20:09 pm »
It is interesting to see some complaining about Keysight's service level and happily buy equipment from cheaper brands.  >:D

You can't have it both ways though. If you vote with your wallet that a lower service level is OK with you, then don't complain that you get what you voted for!
Isn't the majority of this thread about the exact opposite, though?  Buying from a premium brand and then discovering you get no service at all because you're not a company.

There are a lot of professionals using the same equipment they use at work, at home.  The surprising and annoying difference being that the latter get no service or support at all, just because they are not a registered business.

(This is a genuine question and not a rhetorical one.  What I describe here is what I currently understand the topic to be.  The sidetrack wrt. Siglent and Axiomet seems to be a different topic, one related to vendors/rebadgers that provide no support whatsoever, to anyone at all.  In that sense, the Axiomet customers and for example European non-business Keysight device owners are pretty much in the same soup together; no support.  In that sense, I do not see how nctnico's comment makes any sense, and seek clarification.)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2022, 06:23:08 pm by Nominal Animal »
 

Online tautech

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #333 on: February 17, 2022, 07:19:55 pm »
If "Siglent" is the brand name on the product and in the documentation, then Siglent is responsible for supporting the product, including firmware updates.

To claim otherwise is ... oh, I don't know, being a shill.
It's not, there's no indication on a rebrand other than on maybe the PCB who the OEM is....rebrands work like that.  ;)

I've never heard of Axiomet.
Until yesterday neither had I.

Quote
User rteodor wrote, "I got burned with a Siglent rebranded Axiomet oscilloscope." I took that to mean that Siglent was the name on the product, and the product was actually manufactured by Axiomet.
No, manufactured for Axiomet.

Quote
Apparently, this particular product is branded as Axiomet.
Yes.

Quote
The point is, of course, that the brand name on the product is responsible for the support, not whatever OEM/OED actually designed and made the thing.
We cannot know what agreement was made between Siglent/Atten all those years ago and it may or may not have included firmware support for Axiomet.
Now we know a little more about this particular model, there are later firmware versions that Axiomet chose not to make available to their customers for whatever reason.

Can me names if you must but their is no excuse for Axiomet not providing firmware support for their customers.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline rteodor

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #334 on: February 17, 2022, 07:31:17 pm »
Well, I said that I will keep silent but I have a little news:

I asked the distributor for more details about support and their response was:

Quote
We at ${I do not know if I should mention their name} offer support and service for the products ordered from us.
In addition, we can add help (e.g. when programming) from the manufacturer.

So there you go OP: we can still buy a KeySight product and get support and service as a hobbyist. Just not from KeySight directly.
I will try to get some more information from the distributor to see if there is a devil inside the details.

I can relate to KeySight change. I do not like it but I understand it. And who knows: if they have many distributors to compete between them and the management is good, then maybe hobbyists will get better support. Maybe some distributor will go on our niche. If there are enough conscious hobbyists. Or maybe 2N3055 is right that I have a problem and I am being naive again...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2022, 06:34:23 am by rteodor »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #335 on: February 17, 2022, 07:38:42 pm »
It is interesting to see some complaining about Keysight's service level and happily buy equipment from cheaper brands.  >:D

You can't have it both ways though. If you vote with your wallet that a lower service level is OK with you, then don't complain that you get what you voted for!
Isn't the majority of this thread about the exact opposite, though?  Buying from a premium brand and then discovering you get no service at all because you're not a company.

There are a lot of professionals using the same equipment they use at work, at home.  The surprising and annoying difference being that the latter get no service or support at all, just because they are not a registered business.
I don't think that is the case at all. I think you have to seperate between two 'issues' here:

1a) My guess is that most have bought their new equipment through a distributor (pretending to be Keysight) and not directly from Keysight to start with.

1b) Keysight does have an Ebay outlet and it seems they have sold to individuals directly through there. But for most of those listings the warranty period is very short.

2) In a not so distant past Keysight (HP, Agilent) was providing service directly to anyone who asks. Even for equipment that is obsolete. Appearantly that got changed and Keysight choose to only support businesses directly. People used to this service level are now confronted with a sudden change that pisses them off.

None of this rules out individuals can't get support for their Keysight equipment through a distributor. Though to people to who 1b applies might have trouble finding a distributor to support them without having made a sale first.

Circling back to why Keysight has done this: it is likely that they are seeing a decline in sales and thus need to shed some weight in the organisation. That decline in sales is likely caused by the B-brands eating into their revenue hence my remark about people voting with their wallet. If a market turns into a ratrace to the bottom then everyone is sucket in.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline xmo

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #336 on: February 17, 2022, 07:41:28 pm »
"... it is Carla style now."

Carla? 

I assume you mean Cara Carleton "Carly" Fiorina
 

Offline MegaVolt

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #337 on: February 18, 2022, 10:10:51 am »
Tektronix does not have a policy in place specifying support for the size or market space of a customer. If you are a customer, whether you have bought 1 unit or 1 million, some kind of support is offered to you.
It sounds good. But it's not. I don't feel like Keithley supports me at all. I understand that there are controversial claims, but any intelligible technical answer would suit me.

But even software error handling is not performed.

For example: In DMM7510, when version 1.7.0 was released, a bug was introduced that caused continuous buffer writing to stop working. Update 1.7.10 has already been released and the problem is still present. I contacted through the Russian representation. They said the bug was confirmed. This was in 2020. It is now 2022 and the problem has not been fixed. But you just need to open the version history and find the error. It's not even done...

Therefore, I would say that Keithley does not have the support of private buyers.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #338 on: February 20, 2022, 02:24:54 am »
But they basically pulled out of entry level market, including hobby/private users.
To be honest, they never did officially target that market, even before.  .

Keysight has the EDU series "Affordable for internships/training labs etc. and for students" - so noobs can use the equipment but not buy it?
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #339 on: February 20, 2022, 04:21:22 am »
I've been away from any electronics related hobbies and repairs for almost a year, 2021 was a very disjointed year for us. That being said, I started looking for a linear psu a few months ago and considered the Keysight 36300 series. I liked the black case, but price to performance ratio wasn't where I was at.

Looking at Newark's site, and a few others, there is NO mention of any of this "business only" garbage.

Glad I found this page, hard to think a company would separate human purchasers from what roof they operate their expensive equipment under, or the fact they have a few extra parking spots out front or a sign with business hours.
 

Offline J-R

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #340 on: February 20, 2022, 05:49:48 am »
Bought some equipment from Keysight's ebay store last year, 30 day warranty.  Well past that 30 days I contacted them and purchased an extended warranty for some of it.  About 6 months after that the unit quit working correctly and I shipped it back.  They weren't able to repair it but shipped me a replacement unit instead.  Consider me a happy Keysight customer.
 

Offline Kean

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #341 on: February 20, 2022, 08:12:46 am »
Looking at Newark's site, and a few others, there is NO mention of any of this "business only" garbage.

At https://www.newark.com/terms-and-conditions there is a pretty common clause...
Quote
2. BUSINESS CUSTOMERS:

The Company is a business-to-business supplier. Its catalog and any specialogs and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer represents and warrants that Customer is acquiring the products on behalf of a business and not as a consumer.

Strangely though, their website user registration has a drop down option for "*Which of the following best describes your job role?" of "Home / Personal / Hobbyist".
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #342 on: February 20, 2022, 09:39:11 am »
I wondered if the move was becuase for the amount if new gear hobbyist buy there is a significant number of support tickets as we need to be honest here, if we take the general hobbyist here as an example then we can assume they are some of the most nitpicky, pedantic and inquisitive users around aka annoying. This vs a firm where they get mostly the sales twerp asking dumb questions that can be solved with a cheap call centre and a basic FAQ and they will happily take the "send it back to us for servicing" line. A much easier life and less drain on the company resources. I also suspect that sales of new gear is dropping partly as the old gear is still so good and is lasting longer.

I have witnessed companies fail becuase of the open nature the owner and the staff had with the customers even if it was 4am. This meant when something broke they would be pestered to fix it. Even worse is they had hundreds of users just clicking refresh every 10s to see when it would come back up. So the engineers had to shy away from being so public.
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So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 
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Offline adauphin

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #343 on: February 20, 2022, 09:55:35 am »
Looking at Newark's site, and a few others, there is NO mention of any of this "business only" garbage.

At https://www.newark.com/terms-and-conditions there is a pretty common clause...
Quote
2. BUSINESS CUSTOMERS:

The Company is a business-to-business supplier. Its catalog and any specialogs and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer represents and warrants that Customer is acquiring the products on behalf of a business and not as a consumer.

Strangely though, their website user registration has a drop down option for "*Which of the following best describes your job role?" of "Home / Personal / Hobbyist".


Not to sound rude, but can you show me where I can add this to my cart, proceed to checkout, and be made aware I have to use this for a business to gain customer support?

What a piece of garbage company if they refuse support to a customer that uses their equipment in their home for "non-business" use.

Not towards Newark, but Keysight.


https://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/e36312a/dc-power-supply-3o-p-6v-5a-prog/dp/15AC9655
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #344 on: February 20, 2022, 10:39:20 am »
(Disclaimer: I have no Keysight (but could find some desk space if needed) and have no relation with the company.)

Keysight only says it won't be providing DIRECT support to a personal end-user.

They will continue to provide support to any user as long it comes via a VAT registered company  :blah:

So, people only have to buy things from their distributors, national representatives, etc. and all will be "business as usual".
Nobody has to starting creating VAT companies all over the place... The companies already exist.

I understand that many (and mostly) US guys are accustomed to buy all types of devices all over the place and always have the support of the manufacturer (specially the US manufacturers). But where I live, and I think in many other places, we haven't been so "lucky" and had, almost always, to go through the sales house where we bought the thing in order to obtain manufacturer support. So, what they are doing now doesn't surprise me or at least doesn't shock me (sorry guys, but I grew up without those privileges and, as such, had to "adopt, adapt and improve").

I expect that through TEquipment, Newark, and the likes, all hobbysts (private individuals) will continue to get the full Keysight support but these sales companies will also have to do a little more for their customers and ensure that they support them down the line and in front of  the manufacturer (let's say in other words: to justify their margins). From now on, these companies will not be in a "fire and forget" mode where they make any Keysight sale, from any stock, and stay comfortable that should any problem arise the customer will deal directly with the manufacturer! Now they will be the middleman (as they should).

Can be worse for the customer? Yes, it can but it also empowers some businesses to strength the relation with their customers and, of course, if the Keysight starts to have a bad support for their tickets they may choose to not represent them anymore.

For Keysight, as @mendip_discovery perfectly described, the tickets should be more filtered and avoid the persistent and annoying ones. Also, Keysight also gets the option of not providing equipment to a certain sales representative that doesn't follow certain rules (that provides adequate support to their customers or that doesn't filter simple complaints, etc.).  And this is a perfectly understandable goal.

Direct sales between end users (eBay, EEVblog, etc...) get a hit. Yes they do but that's the price of having a Keysight with support.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 10:41:44 am by tv84 »
 
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Offline Kean

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #345 on: February 20, 2022, 02:04:53 pm »
Not to sound rude, but can you show me where I can add this to my cart, proceed to checkout, and be made aware I have to use this for a business to gain customer support?

What a piece of garbage company if they refuse support to a customer that uses their equipment in their home for "non-business" use.

Not towards Newark, but Keysight.

https://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/e36312a/dc-power-supply-3o-p-6v-5a-prog/dp/15AC9655

Also not trying to be rude - just stating some relevant facts.  As per the T&C page on the Newark site, Newark specify quite clearly in their terms and conditions of sale that (paraphrased): products are sold for business use, and as a customer you agree that you are purchasing for business use.  This is right near the top of the T&Cs page and hard to miss if you actually visit the page.

Did you read the Newark T&Cs?  I'm sure a lot of people don't, and I'm sure another bit of text about this during the ordering process (even a specific confirmation popup) would be ignored by most people.

I have business accounts with Farnell (branded as Element14 in Australia, rather than Newark), Mouser, Digikey, etc.  So as a business customer, I am unlikely to see such warnings.  I do get warned by Element14 if I try to purchase Raspberry Pi products that they only sell to business customers, and I get warned by Mouser if I try to buy products with trade or shipping restrictions.  I imagine they may eventually also warn about this issue, but as during registration you would have already agreed to their T&Cs that you are purchasing for business use... then do they really need to?
 

Offline adauphin

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #346 on: February 21, 2022, 04:57:32 am »

 As per the T&C page on the Newark site, Newark specify quite clearly in their terms and conditions of sale that (paraphrased): products are sold for business use, and as a customer you agree that you are purchasing for business use.  This is right near the top of the T&Cs page and hard to miss if you actually visit the page.


On my mobile device, the T&C is at the bottom of the page.

Yes, I saw the section on business sales....who looks for that?

Needs to be in bold print next to the product, plain and simple. How many unsuspecting folks purchase one, then not have any issues for awhile, exceeding the window to return it, then find out they have no support from the manufacturer because they are not a "business"?

Maybe when they have it printed in bold next to the pic of the product, their sales will readjust accordingly.

 

Offline EE-digger

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #347 on: February 21, 2022, 01:54:53 pm »
I have not read the entire thread.

If Keysight allows the bleeping lawyers to run their show, it's already over.  This MUST NOT HAPPEN !

I just got a reply from the Keysight store to the question I addressed to Oliver.  Don't know who the reply is from.

"We can only sell to companies - that's correct"


In all honesty, I did not identify myself as in USA and don't know if you can derive that from the ebay headers.

This is pure BS of the highest order.

I guess the younguns at Keysight don't have a clue either.  The fact is that people on here buyin a scope, generator or DMM here and there from the KS store by night are in many cases the same people placing RFQs for tens or hundreds or perhaps even millions of $$ of equipment by day.  I've done the latter for the past 40+ years.  Companies driven by lawyers and operate as if by scripts are doomed.

Recently I needed some VCO replacements for Micronetix parts, now owned by Mercury Systems.  After several phone calls to get to the right people, my request for price and delivery were noted, then apparently lit with a match and dropped in a bucket.  Those involved in marketing and sales had no idea that I was sitting on a $2.8 million contract for aerospace modules and they were a possible contender.  I wasn't but that's beside the point  :) :)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 02:08:25 pm by EE-digger »
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #348 on: February 21, 2022, 02:27:51 pm »

Thinking about this...   even some older time-honoured HP equipment come with notices that they are for professional use by competent people only.

I dislike over-lawyering as much as the next guy, but perhaps it is simply the case that a product you sell to the average Joe Blow comes with more responsibilities than a product sold for professional / special use cases only?  -  e.g. remember when McDonald's got sued for their coffee being too hot, and a consumer got badly burned when spilling a cup in their lap.

Imagine how much trouble a n00b can get into with test equipment.  Some scumbag lawyer could launch a suit:   "My client's house burned down because he was charging LiPos with your power supply.  Nowhere in the instruction manual does it mention that this supply cannot be used for charging LiPos.  Either the product is deficient, or your documentation - either way, you have to pay for a new house."

All of these kinds of problems are reduced significantly if you sell to professionals / companies only.  Now, your defense to the above lawsuit is simply "Your client is in breach of his contract with us, where he claimed he was a trained professional using our product in a professional environment.  Any professional would know better than to try and charge LiPo chemistry unattended in this way.  If you want to take this to court, we have a long list of professionals willing to attest to that. Don't waste your time and money."
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #349 on: February 21, 2022, 03:26:35 pm »

Imagine how much trouble a n00b can get into with test equipment.  Some scumbag lawyer could launch a suit:   "My client's house burned down because he was charging LiPos with your power supply.  Nowhere in the instruction manual does it mention that this supply cannot be used for charging LiPos.  Either the product is deficient, or your documentation - either way, you have to pay for a new house."

I can see some sort of public notice in the future like this:

Public Notice - The growing dangers of oscilloscopes in our society

Please read the following notice, as there is a great danger to your children from this device being sold to non-professionals ...




 :-DD
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
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