Author Topic: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist  (Read 100214 times)

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Offline coromonadalix

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #350 on: February 21, 2022, 03:29:16 pm »
 :-DD  :palm:
 

Offline EE-digger

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #351 on: February 21, 2022, 03:32:47 pm »
Tech Support:  for that, you will need to use a current probe

Consumer:  why can't I use the one I used last week?
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #352 on: February 21, 2022, 03:38:53 pm »

Imagine how much trouble a n00b can get into with test equipment.  Some scumbag lawyer could launch a suit:   "My client's house burned down because he was charging LiPos with your power supply.  Nowhere in the instruction manual does it mention that this supply cannot be used for charging LiPos.  Either the product is deficient, or your documentation - either way, you have to pay for a new house."

I can see some sort of public notice in the future like this:

Public Notice - The growing dangers of oscilloscopes in our society

Please read the following notice, as there is a great danger to your children from this device being sold to non-professionals ...




 :-DD


Take a look at any manual for consumer equipment.  You will notice that there is an abundance of warnings and restrictions on use in order to limit liability for dumb things the user might do with the product.   That approach simply wouldn't be practical for professional equipment!

Imagine a situation where a n00b is probing the high voltage section of an old TV with his new oscilloscope.  Bang! - he gets zapped, and accidentally knocks the bottle of isopropyl alcohol on his desk.  The alcohol catches fire from a static spark as he approaches it with a wipe.  The whole house burns down.

A few weeks later, some scumbag lawyer is poring over the oscilloscope manual, because the oscilloscope manufacturer is the most financially strong party that could possibly be blamed for this predicament.  He already checked the isopropyl alcohol bottle, it clearly stated it is a fire hazard so nothing to go after there.  Now, he is looking for a section in the oscilloscope manual that explained that the oscilloscope is not suitable for taking measurements in old television sets...  Bingo!  The evil corporation did not warn the consumer about that!   Deficient documentation, the poor guy never had a chance...     ...you get the idea.

 
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Offline EE-digger

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #353 on: February 21, 2022, 03:41:20 pm »
Eventually, if you remove the screws to open the enclosure on a scope (or other equipment) you will be labeled as one of the popular names we hear on the news these days, and (for our Canadian friends) have your assets frozen  :-DD

POLITICS_OFF
 

Offline EE-digger

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #354 on: February 21, 2022, 03:48:39 pm »
...  Now, he is looking for a section in the oscilloscope manual that explained that the oscilloscope is not suitable for taking measurements in old television sets...  Bingo!  The evil corporation did not warn the consumer about that!   Deficient documentation, the poor guy never had a chance...     ...you get the idea.

Or the manual IS complete and the scumbag lawyer will sue because while his client had one hand behind his back (as instructed to do for high voltage, live measurements) he fell off his lab chair, did a face plant on a concrete floor and now has neurological damage plus needs reconstructive surgery.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #355 on: February 21, 2022, 04:00:18 pm »
For example, I just looked at the user manual for my (consumer) MIG welder.   It starts with 3 full pages of all the restrictions you have to follow when using it,  which are so onerous that you pretty much could never do any real world work with it if you tried to abide by all of them!

 

Offline Grandchuck

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #356 on: February 21, 2022, 05:58:33 pm »
Radioshack warned against using their Probescope near a bathtub {you can't make this stuff up}.

https://n8qvq.info/n8qvq/files/probescope_manual.pdf

It is on page 4 :-[
 
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Offline oz2cpu

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #357 on: February 21, 2022, 06:04:00 pm »
ups i did it.. just because you said i should not :-)
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #358 on: February 21, 2022, 06:09:22 pm »
No worries we will help to fix it in the repair thread, do not bother to contact KS.

Nice beast, there is some information in the metrology section on how to improve the voltage reference.
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Can't love what you don't know. Zucca
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #359 on: February 21, 2022, 07:46:41 pm »
ups i did it.. just because you said i should not :-)

Noo!! And now it will show silly numbers and start acting up to get more attention... Like husky... :-)
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Offline Tekjive

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #360 on: February 22, 2022, 03:50:24 am »
Wow that’s weird, cuz I just watched a YouTube video where some home hacker dude in NYC was given an $18k scope from a Keysight rep to “mod” into some lame monstrous device that added nothing to the scopes functionality, ie: RGB, etc 🥴 ...all for views from “professionals”? Seems on par with some companies lately :/

https://youtu.be/8Veobksi3pI @Feb.21.2021

 
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Offline oz2cpu

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #361 on: February 22, 2022, 09:42:22 am »
correct 2N3055
my new ks is full of silly numbers :-)
by the way : if anyone know how to hack the memory option code ? please PM me..
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Offline adauphin

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #362 on: February 22, 2022, 03:12:33 pm »

Thinking about this...   even some older time-honoured HP equipment come with notices that they are for professional use by competent people only.

I dislike over-lawyering as much as the next guy, but perhaps it is simply the case that a product you sell to the average Joe Blow comes with more responsibilities than a product sold for professional / special use cases only?  -  e.g. remember when McDonald's got sued for their coffee being too hot, and a consumer got badly burned when spilling a cup in their lap.

Imagine how much trouble a n00b can get into with test equipment.  Some scumbag lawyer could launch a suit:   "My client's house burned down because he was charging LiPos with your power supply.  Nowhere in the instruction manual does it mention that this supply cannot be used for charging LiPos.  Either the product is deficient, or your documentation - either way, you have to pay for a new house."

All of these kinds of problems are reduced significantly if you sell to professionals / companies only.  Now, your defense to the above lawsuit is simply "Your client is in breach of his contract with us, where he claimed he was a trained professional using our product in a professional environment.  Any professional would know better than to try and charge LiPo chemistry unattended in this way.  If you want to take this to court, we have a long list of professionals willing to attest to that. Don't waste your time and money."

Crazy how many multimeters there are for sale in every home improvement store, with test probes for probing high voltage.

Has anyone seen how close those little fingers of a kid get to the metal prongs of an electrical cord when they plug something into an outlet?

The fact any store sells plastic wire nuts for securing mains leads and even testers for hot mains is on another level.

I can't believe a hair dryer cord is longer than 6" so it could reach the sink.

Does anyone remove paper clips and any metal object from their home that could accidentally make it into a receptacle?

Imagine the field day lawyers could have with every store and vendor imaginable.

The point of my ramblings, this is complete BS regarding any user of test equipment not taking the responsibility to read the directions of their device.

Since when did humanity have no freaking clue how to operate anything with no lick of common sense? Guess we have to make a blanket policy for everyone.

I'm shocked there hasn't been lawsuits against chewing gum manufacturers since it impairs walking.

We don't make any move to remove cell phones from the hands of people crossing the street with their head down.

 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #363 on: February 22, 2022, 03:49:10 pm »
I dislike over-lawyering as much as the next guy, but perhaps it is simply the case that a product you sell to the average Joe Blow comes with more responsibilities than a product sold for professional / special use cases only?  -  e.g. remember when McDonald's got sued for their coffee being too hot, and a consumer got badly burned when spilling a cup in their lap.
This is one of the most misinformed stories that circulate around the internet - it was not "over-lawyering".

Since when did humanity have no freaking clue how to operate anything with no lick of common sense? Guess we have to make a blanket policy for everyone.
To be honest, when people started replacing ALL real life experiences and interactions with a virtual surrounding where "safety" has to be the absolute gold standard for ALL interactions.

Despite this, the judicial system is not entirely insane yet - I recall some cases where people were using consumer equipment inappropriately and either died or got severe injured but no compensation was granted on the basis of misuse.
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Offline adauphin

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #364 on: February 22, 2022, 05:14:46 pm »

I recall some cases where people were using consumer equipment inappropriately and either died or got severe injured but no compensation was granted on the basis of misuse.

That can be said about almost every piece of consumer equipment.

So I can use a blender but cannot supply 5V DC to a simple circuit...got it.

Why does Keysight also have an issue with me probing an arduino circuit with my kid so he can learn about electronics?!?!?!

There's ZERO excuse for this. If they want to sell to a business, they can put their products on a site where only the "business" clients can view and purchase.

 Otherwise, I'd rather not have their products populate my search while looking to purchase from a company who actually wants business.

 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #365 on: February 22, 2022, 05:20:53 pm »

Thinking about this...   even some older time-honoured HP equipment come with notices that they are for professional use by competent people only.

I dislike over-lawyering as much as the next guy, but perhaps it is simply the case that a product you sell to the average Joe Blow comes with more responsibilities than a product sold for professional / special use cases only?  -  e.g. remember when McDonald's got sued for their coffee being too hot, and a consumer got badly burned when spilling a cup in their lap.

Imagine how much trouble a n00b can get into with test equipment.  Some scumbag lawyer could launch a suit:   "My client's house burned down because he was charging LiPos with your power supply.  Nowhere in the instruction manual does it mention that this supply cannot be used for charging LiPos.  Either the product is deficient, or your documentation - either way, you have to pay for a new house."

All of these kinds of problems are reduced significantly if you sell to professionals / companies only.  Now, your defense to the above lawsuit is simply "Your client is in breach of his contract with us, where he claimed he was a trained professional using our product in a professional environment.  Any professional would know better than to try and charge LiPo chemistry unattended in this way.  If you want to take this to court, we have a long list of professionals willing to attest to that. Don't waste your time and money."

Crazy how many multimeters there are for sale in every home improvement store, with test probes for probing high voltage.

Has anyone seen how close those little fingers of a kid get to the metal prongs of an electrical cord when they plug something into an outlet?

The fact any store sells plastic wire nuts for securing mains leads and even testers for hot mains is on another level.

I can't believe a hair dryer cord is longer than 6" so it could reach the sink.

Does anyone remove paper clips and any metal object from their home that could accidentally make it into a receptacle?

Imagine the field day lawyers could have with every store and vendor imaginable.

The point of my ramblings, this is complete BS regarding any user of test equipment not taking the responsibility to read the directions of their device.

Since when did humanity have no freaking clue how to operate anything with no lick of common sense? Guess we have to make a blanket policy for everyone.

I'm shocked there hasn't been lawsuits against chewing gum manufacturers since it impairs walking.

We don't make any move to remove cell phones from the hands of people crossing the street with their head down.

Lawyers can and do have field days with every store and vendor imaginable.

E.g.:  https://www.iveyengineering.com/unbelievable-product-liability-lawsuits/

I especially loved the $15 million for shooting yourself in the foot!









 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #366 on: February 22, 2022, 05:21:54 pm »
 
Selling to the professional or business-to-business market doesn't actually make a manufacturer immune to product liability lawsuits.
 
In order for a company to be able to defend itself against a product liability lawsuit, it must prove that they strived to achieve a design that is reasonably safe for its intended uses, including reasonably foreseeable alternate uses and even misuses. This is hard to do, because in court, the argument will typically devolve to asking for the product to be "the safest possible." Basically, the plaintiff's lawyers will try to hold the manufacturer responsible for "foreseeing" even completely crazy uses and misuses of its product that resulted in an injury.

The goal of making any product the "safest possible" is obviously impossible - it would result in a product so dumbed down that it couldn't be used for its intended purpose. Instead, the courts look at how the company actually determined when to stop making the product safer.

So, what is actually considered a "job well done" in terms of safety - that will stand up in court?  Basically, the manufacturer must prove they became familiar with how the product is actually used...  by contact with customers, data from field service visits, and other means. They must document and analyze the reasonably foreseeable uses and misuses - including analysis of the potential market for the product, the abilities of the expected users, understanding how the product would be used, and the environment to which the product will be subjected.  Even factors like the life expectancy (and recyclability) of the product, and the frequency of repair and replacement of parts and the impact on safety, are important to demonstrate.

Seen in this light, naturally, the work and analysis you would do for a consumer product being used at home is completely different to the one you would do for a product aimed at a professional environment - even if the product itself is exactly the same. 


The following is complete speculation, but it rings true:  Keysight probably hasn't done the necessary homework to be able to sell their products directly to the consumer market without taking on excessive legal risk.  They might have concluded that it is too expensive to do that for the additional sales they would get.


 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #367 on: February 22, 2022, 06:09:57 pm »
Whilst it may be a reality, the idea that any manufacturer should ever be held responsible for someone misusing one of their products is utterly ludicrous.

Rather than trying to legislate Darwinism away we should embrace the removal of stupid people from the gene pool (as long as they are doing it to themselves, I'm not suggesting eugenics is in any way acceptable) as an improvement to the species as a whole.

I'm a firm believer in the theory that people drive like fucking idiots these days because they feel invincible in their modern autos, weighed down as they are with more "safety" features than you can shake a multimeter probe at, safe in the knowledge that when (not if) their speed exceeds their talent, the car will either save them from a collision or protect them during it.
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #369 on: February 22, 2022, 06:57:30 pm »

We all know where this is going to end -  self driving cars that rarely, if ever, exceed 25mph!

 

Offline james_s

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #370 on: March 30, 2022, 05:19:27 pm »
The illusion of safety could make drivers worse:

https://www.thedrive.com/article/13378/driver-aids-may-create-worse-drivers-report-says
https://www.wired.com/2011/07/active-safety-systems-could-create-passive-drivers/

I think it absolutely makes things worse. All of these driver assist features make people reliant on the technology. Rather than making driving safer, they simply enable people to focus their attention on other things, like playing with their mobile phone. It is a well known fact that when you take away the need to focus on something, the brain finds something else to focus on. It's exactly why trains have a feature that makes the engineer respond to something and press a button regularly. Cars would be safer with everything manual, requiring the driver's full attention to operate the vehicle.
 

Offline maglin78

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #371 on: March 30, 2022, 05:51:52 pm »
I'm glad this came back up.  I'll not purchase from Keysight nor will I recommend them to any employer.  We are looking to spend about $1M to revamp our test equipment and I will make sure we don't support them.

I'm in the US Air Force and something similar happened about 20 years ago.  Working on B52's we used all Snap-On tools and tool boxes.  I'm talking about several million in Snap-On tools.  We used a VW brake adjuster to close engine cowling and broke them often.  It was a $12 tool.  Our local rep had gotten comfortable and started declining the replacement of these tools.  Granted they where indeed being misused and he never gave an alternative tool to use.  He also started declining replacements the same year we was looking to completely replace our tools.  My buddy was a MAC rep and we dropped Snap-On and spent $2.5 million with MAC.  Then vehicle maintenance was informed about our dealing with Snap-On and they also spent $1.5 million with MAC the same year.  The MAC dealer bent over backwards for us for years until I left and I'm sure he still is today.  That deal got him a very nice new house and car's and tool truck.

If Keysight was always a B2B company I would not care, but they make products for consumers as evidenced by their low end products that market to non business.  Then refusing to deal with your customers that you obviously targeted?  It's crazy to me.  I'm sure this decision will have effects for years to come, but I don't see it killing the company.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #372 on: March 30, 2022, 08:28:22 pm »
If Keysight was always a B2B company I would not care, but they make products for consumers as evidenced by their low end products that market to non business.
No, the lower end products are clearly for the educational market which is quite large.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #373 on: March 30, 2022, 09:24:01 pm »
If Keysight was always a B2B company I would not care, but they make products for consumers as evidenced by their low end products that market to non business.
No, the lower end products are clearly for the educational market which is quite large.
I was wondering about that statement. Does he think the low end scopes are for consumers, or is he thinking of the HP products which are truly mixed business and consumer ones, like printers.

Low end instruments are not just for education. When you talk to the sales people for low end instruments they are always searching for production facilities, because they get big sales there,
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #374 on: March 30, 2022, 09:34:52 pm »
The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.

Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.
 
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