Products > Test Equipment
Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
Caliaxy:
--- Quote from: Someone on March 30, 2022, 10:43:37 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 30, 2022, 09:34:52 pm ---The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.
Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.
--- End quote ---
Keysight never? directly mentioned the "maker" or hobby market when they promoted the low cost scopes (cant find any of their first party communications with something like that), but they were sure happy to sit by while others pushed that space:
--- Quote from: https://www.element14.com/news/premier-farnell-shipping-keysight-technologies-ultra-low-cost-oscilloscope-series/ ---The Keysight’s InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes has been developed for price conscious electronic design engineers, students and hobbyists,
--- End quote ---
In Australia manufacturers are not allowed to hide themselves behind distributors or retailers when dealing with warranty or service claims. But thats from consumer protection laws which have broad applicability, even in B2B transactions.
--- End quote ---
Keysight aside, it seems that everything sold by element15/newark/farnell etc. is intended for business customers only. On the page you linked, scroll down to "Terms of Purchase", click on the link then on the new page scroll down a bit to section 2 ("Business Customers"). It reads:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. Business customers
The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://uk.farnell.com/terms-of-purchase
SMB784:
--- Quote from: coppice on March 30, 2022, 11:29:29 pm ---
--- Quote from: SMB784 on March 30, 2022, 11:04:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on March 30, 2022, 09:40:58 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 30, 2022, 09:34:52 pm ---The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.
--- End quote ---
No, not at all. The educational market are schools and universities that buy low cost test equipment in bulk to outfit student labs. There is nothing 'hobby' about that.
--- End quote ---
Having worked in an academic environment at the second largest university in the US for nearly a decade years, this is mostly wrong.
I can think of only once that a bulk purchase of entry level test equipment was done, and that was when they opened the new engineering building near the end of my time there and kitted out a couple teaching labs with scopes, meters, & power supplies.
All other purchases that I ever was party to or had knowledge of were for less than 10 units at a time, usually less than 4. This is indistinguishable from the hobbyist market. Other then one initial bulk purchase, the remainder of orders are for replacements or individual use cases, all of which would require some level of warranty service that is no longer being offered to the hobbyist, and frankly I'm pretty sure soon won't be available for the education market either for similar reasons.
--- End quote ---
Having visited a number of universities its very common for undergraduate labs to have many of the exact same model of an oscilloscope or multimeter, which all look the same age.
--- End quote ---
Sure, and they all get replaced about once per decade.
Nominal Animal:
--- Quote from: coppice on March 30, 2022, 09:46:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 30, 2022, 09:34:52 pm ---The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.
Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.
--- End quote ---
How so? Its just facing reality.
--- End quote ---
So is bending over when someone bigger than you wants to bugger you in the arse.
--- Quote from: coppice on March 30, 2022, 09:46:52 pm ---The main markets for low end instruments are education and production test.
--- End quote ---
How do you define "education" as a market, when considering tools specifically? That is my point.
(And I think you are using instruments because you don't want to think of other tools at similar price ranges that are common in e.g. vocational schools.)
It is very common for interested students to obtain the same tools they use at school for their own use, so they get getter at their use, and because they want to get better at what they're studying by doing their own hobby projects.
But the key stinky bit to me is, if you want students to use your tools, why would you not want skilled hobbyists to use those tools also? What the hell kind of a business model is it that makes a difference between the two? It is common for the same tools sold on to hobbyists ("consumer market") to cost much more, sure; but that's not what Keysight is doing. They could, but they don't want to. Why? (That's a rhetorical question. I'm not interested in yours and others' further speculation on the reason, there's enough of it in this thread already. Point being, Keysight is not telling us the reason they don't want to sell (at higher prices) to hobbyists and other private consumers.)
tautech:
--- Quote from: Caliaxy on March 30, 2022, 11:46:34 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on March 30, 2022, 10:43:37 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 30, 2022, 09:34:52 pm ---The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.
Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.
--- End quote ---
Keysight never? directly mentioned the "maker" or hobby market when they promoted the low cost scopes (cant find any of their first party communications with something like that), but they were sure happy to sit by while others pushed that space:
--- Quote from: https://www.element14.com/news/premier-farnell-shipping-keysight-technologies-ultra-low-cost-oscilloscope-series/ ---The Keysight’s InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes has been developed for price conscious electronic design engineers, students and hobbyists,
--- End quote ---
In Australia manufacturers are not allowed to hide themselves behind distributors or retailers when dealing with warranty or service claims. But thats from consumer protection laws which have broad applicability, even in B2B transactions.
--- End quote ---
Keysight aside, it seems that everything sold by element15/newark/farnell etc. is intended for business customers only. On the page you linked, scroll down to "Terms of Purchase", click on the link then on the new page scroll down a bit to section 2 ("Business Customers"). It reads:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. Business customers
The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://uk.farnell.com/terms-of-purchase
--- End quote ---
Oh for heavens sakes …. Farnell and E14 need boycotting too until they come to their senses.
Someone:
--- Quote from: Caliaxy on March 30, 2022, 11:46:34 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on March 30, 2022, 10:43:37 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on March 30, 2022, 09:34:52 pm ---The distinction between "Educational" and "Hobby" is academic, at best.
Pushing tools not sold to private individuals as "Educational" stinks of bait-and-switch trickery to me.
--- End quote ---
Keysight never? directly mentioned the "maker" or hobby market when they promoted the low cost scopes (cant find any of their first party communications with something like that), but they were sure happy to sit by while others pushed that space:
--- Quote from: https://www.element14.com/news/premier-farnell-shipping-keysight-technologies-ultra-low-cost-oscilloscope-series/ ---The Keysight’s InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes has been developed for price conscious electronic design engineers, students and hobbyists,
--- End quote ---
In Australia manufacturers are not allowed to hide themselves behind distributors or retailers when dealing with warranty or service claims. But thats from consumer protection laws which have broad applicability, even in B2B transactions.
--- End quote ---
Keysight aside, it seems that everything sold by element15/newark/farnell etc. is intended for business customers only. On the page you linked, scroll down to "Terms of Purchase", click on the link then on the new page scroll down a bit to section 2 ("Business Customers"). It reads:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2. Business customers
The Company is a business to business supplier. The Catalogue and any specialogues and other product brochures produced by the Company are intended for use by business customers and not consumers. By ordering, the Customer confirms that he, she or it wishes to obtain the Supplies for the purposes of his, her or its business and not as a consumer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://uk.farnell.com/terms-of-purchase
--- End quote ---
As I mentioned, specific to that example and bolded above, they can say whatever they like in their terms. Australian consumer law cannot be disclaimed/avoided and still applies to B2B transactions:
--- Quote from: https://www.accc.gov.au/business/business-rights-protections/business-rights#repair-replace-refund-on-business-purchases ---When you buy goods or services for your business which are:
under $100,000
over $100,000 and normally bought for personal, domestic or household use or consumption
[or,] vehicles and trailers used mainly to transport goods on public roads
your business will be considered a consumer and entitled to certain remedies under the consumer guarantees if something goes wrong.
--- End quote ---
So regardless if the transaction between a customer and element14 was considered as a business customer or a consumer, the important protections of the manufacturer being required to honour the warranty (and extended consumer protections) apply. The manufacturer cannot change their policy to avoid the obligations, its a mandatory legal requirement (in Australia) the customer gets to choose who they deal with for warranty repair/replacement
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