Author Topic: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist  (Read 100338 times)

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Offline edpalmer42

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2021, 06:49:56 pm »
On ebay.com, Keysight's Terms of Sale state under Sales & Delivery:

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Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for use by Consumers. While we thank you for your interest in our products, we are unable to supply them to you.

I also saw this under General:

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The United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods will not apply to these Terms.

I don't know what this implies, but it certainly looks interesting!

I realize that there is a significant professional presence on eevblog, but if Keysight isn't willing to sell to hobbyists, they should not be allowed to advertise or post messages here.  Of course, eevblog is a benevolent dictatorship rather than a democracy, but that's my two cents worth.

Ed
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2021, 06:56:08 pm »
Maybe it's something to do with export restrictions to terrorist countries?

(whatever they are)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2021, 07:12:35 pm »
I think that limitation this limitation is due to laws of purchase. Individuals in many countries have a extended rights when purchasing something.

ie. They have the right to not pay for a juicy support contract.
 

Offline mag_therm

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2021, 07:13:34 pm »
Keysight Terms of Sale dated 1-Nov-2020 Article 7.(j)
 

Offline madires

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2021, 07:47:42 pm »
Another manufacturer for my personal do-not-buy list. Well done Keysight! :--
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2021, 08:10:02 pm »
I think that limitation is due to laws of purchase. Individuals in many countries have a extended rights when purchasing something.
That could be. But that doesn't prevent people to buy from resellers. On top of that: In a sense it is strange to go directly to the manufacturer for support and it is strange that Keysight has offered support for as long as they did. For other manufacturers the reseller is the party to ask questions to with (maybe) a fallback to a local sales office in case the reseller sucks.

If I have a problem with my car, I take it back to where I bought it. I'm not going to bother the car manufacturer.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 08:11:40 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline SHF

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2021, 08:16:36 pm »
I actually wanted to buy a 34465a soon, now I have to think twice about it .......
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Offline TheSteve

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2021, 08:45:43 pm »
Anyone that knows me knows that my lab is primarily HPAK equipment. This change is certainly not a positive thing.
I'd sure like to know exactly the reasons they are changing like this.

I'd love for Dave to do a video on this, but don't expect him to bite the hand that feeds him.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 08:47:17 pm by TheSteve »
VE7FM
 

Offline RBBVNL9

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2021, 10:25:55 pm »
This is crazy. On their own website, Keysight plugs their entry-level instruments such as their EDUX series to be used by "Engineers working on workbenches set up in garages, basements, home offices, sheds [...]." (see https://www.keysightbenchchallenge.com)

In a press release together with distributor Farnell, Keysight writes "The Keysight’s InfiniiVision 1000 X-Series oscilloscopes has been developed for price conscious electronic design engineers, students and hobbyists, offerings more features and an enhanced performance when compared with the Keysight 1000 series. (emphasis added).  https://www.element14.com/news/premier-farnell-shipping-keysight-technologies-ultra-low-cost-oscilloscope-series/

In fact, with their feature set and price point, many of the EDUX and SDOX1000X series instruments will find their way to students and hobbyists.

And then they refuse warranty or support. They should be ashamed!

« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 10:41:04 pm by RBBVNL9 »
 
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2021, 12:02:23 am »
If I have a problem with my car, I take it back to where I bought it. I'm not going to bother the car manufacturer.

Your car dealer has mechanics.  Aldi, or wherever people buy tools and DMMs these days, doesn't have technicians or offer service.  The support model varies with the type of product and by now I'm pretty sure the manufacturers who ultimately foot the bill don't want random techs in other places opening up their equipment.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Online themadhippy

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2021, 12:19:43 am »
Quote
Aldi, or wherever people buy tools and DMMs these day
And in the uk  if you buy it from aldi that's who your warranty is with,your contract is with the seller,not the manufacter
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2021, 01:01:24 am »
And in the uk  if you buy it from aldi that's who your warranty is with,your contract is with the seller,not the manufacter

I understand the contractual obligation part, but if there is going to be any actual service performed beyond unit replacement, that won't likely happen at Aldi.  Unless there is some very multi-talented guy in the back room that wraps the fish, sharpens the knives and calibrates the DMMs all on the same bench.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2021, 01:13:00 am »
If I have a problem with my car, I take it back to where I bought it. I'm not going to bother the car manufacturer.
Your car dealer has mechanics.  Aldi, or wherever people buy tools and DMMs these days, doesn't have technicians or offer service.  The support model varies with the type of product and by now I'm pretty sure the manufacturers who ultimately foot the bill don't want random techs in other places opening up their equipment.
Utter nonsense. There are lots of professional equipment dealers around. And the ALDI like stores simply outsource servicing; lookup a company called Medion.

What you are overlooking is that manufacturers don't want to deal with the raw sewage of bogus claims & user errors coming from users so they leave that to resellers to sift through.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 01:16:46 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2021, 01:21:49 am »
Wow, I'll keep in mind to never buy a Keysight product, and I'll recommend against them to any engineers I know too. This is the kind of bone-headed arrogant behavior that can sink a company. There is lots of competition on the market today, people buy expensive A-list brands like Keysight in part to get the support. Without that I'll just buy direct from China and save a bundle.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2021, 01:39:13 am »
Utter nonsense. There are lots of professional equipment dealers around. And the ALDI like stores simply outsource servicing; lookup a company called Medion.

What you are overlooking is that manufacturers don't want to deal with the raw sewage of bogus claims & user errors coming from users so they leave that to resellers to sift through.

Perhaps things are different in your locale?  Here it is very common for things sold at retailers--from ceiling fans to generators to patio furniture--to come with a notice from the manufacturer in the package telling you not to bother the retailer if you have a problem.  Service by the manufacturer is the norm for many things, including most things we would discuss here.  If I buy a Fluke or Siglent product from TEquipment or Amazon and it needs service, it goes back directly to Fluke or Siglent.

As for dealing with users, Fluke has a help line that any customer can call directly and they actually pick up the phone.  Not sure about Siglent but I think they do as well.  So I don't see them as avoiding users or user errors at all.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2021, 02:09:05 am »
Utter nonsense. There are lots of professional equipment dealers around. And the ALDI like stores simply outsource servicing; lookup a company called Medion.

What you are overlooking is that manufacturers don't want to deal with the raw sewage of bogus claims & user errors coming from users so they leave that to resellers to sift through.

Perhaps things are different in your locale?  Here it is very common for things sold at retailers--from ceiling fans to generators to patio furniture--to come with a notice from the manufacturer in the package telling you not to bother the retailer if you have a problem.
That is different over here; over here you go back to where you bought the item and let them sort it out. That is also in line with the European regulations where it comes to warranty so I'm wondering whether the notice is even applicable to the UK where it comes to consumer laws. My assumption is that the notice points to the importer of the goods which does the branding; not the actual manufacturer somewhere in China.

I do understand the whining better now but people should just quit it (it is not the end of the world!) and adapt to the new situation. In the end: for a manufacturer you are just a grain of sand on a beach. For a reseller you are an important customer. I never bought Keysight gear from Keysight direct but always from  AcalBfi (who is an authorised Keysight dealer). AcalBfi has served me well so far so no complaints there. For the non-commercial market there are plenty resellers that will deal with consumers and some will give excellent service as well (with Keysight backing them up).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 02:16:51 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Online Hydron

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2021, 11:02:50 am »
How about when the reseller goes bust then Keysight refuses to even let you pay for service/calibration, and you're left with a brick?

Edit: to expand on this, it would be reasonable for KS to direct you back to the reseller in the first place, but that's not what is happening here by the looks of things.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 11:10:36 am by Hydron »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2021, 11:12:49 am »
How about when the reseller goes bust then Keysight refuses to even let you pay for service/calibration, and you're left with a brick?

Edit: to expand on this, it would be reasonable for KS to direct you back to the reseller in the first place, but that's not what is happening here by the looks of things.
:palm: Go to a different reseller. See the car analogy; there are many who can service your car. Test equipment is not different in any way. For example: there is an Eevblog member (forgot the name) who specialises in repairing test equipment from Tektronix / Agilent /Keysight at the component level.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 11:14:46 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline quarks

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2021, 11:13:46 am »
I also lately had bad experience as a private individual with Keysight  :--

 

Online Whales

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2021, 11:21:03 am »
Utter nonsense. There are lots of professional equipment dealers around. And the ALDI like stores simply outsource servicing; lookup a company called Medion.

What you are overlooking is that manufacturers don't want to deal with the raw sewage of bogus claims & user errors coming from users so they leave that to resellers to sift through.

Perhaps things are different in your locale?  Here it is very common for things sold at retailers--from ceiling fans to generators to patio furniture--to come with a notice from the manufacturer in the package telling you not to bother the retailer if you have a problem. 

In Australia it's different again, at least regarding faults in a product.  It's up to the consumer whether they bother the retailer OR the manufacturer.

There is a lot of really interesting stuff in this summary by the ACCC ("ayh-triple-see")
 
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Online Whales

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2021, 11:24:32 am »
On that note: if an individual in Australia encounters issues or faults with their Keysight product and gets a response like this, then it's worth reading that ACCC page I link above:

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If the problem with a product or service is minor, you must accept a free repair if the business offers you one.

If the business fails to give you a free repair within a reasonable time or cannot fix your problem, you can:

 *  get it done elsewhere and pass on the costs to the business
 *  ask for a replacement
 *  ask for a refund
 *  recover compensation for the drop in value below the price paid.

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2021, 11:29:48 am »
Don't have any expert opinion but I thought that the Rigol 1054z had the game sewn up for the enthusiast. I can understand everyone's sentiment with the Keysight's resentment. What I don't understand I why Keysight think hobbyists might be using their precious wares when I thought that Rigol has the market share.

?

edit: for clarity my question is who do they think they are trying to shoo away?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 11:32:24 am by Ed.Kloonk »
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2021, 11:32:47 am »
I have been dealing with Keysight through my company for many years now and always had good experiences and ultra fast service when needed.

But lately it has not been easy to even order parts from them.
Something definitely has changed at Keysight, especially since Keysight had one of the best service of all test equipment companies.

But maybe this is the way it goes in this industry. 20 years ago, it was easy to order parts from Tektronix. Try that now in 2021 and it is almost impossible to get anything, unless you know someone.
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Offline madires

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2021, 11:54:44 am »
They all go for the 'if it's broken buy a new one' profit maximization - can't make that much money with service.
 
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2021, 12:07:52 pm »
No answer yet to the question I sent the proprietors of the Keysight Ebay store. Probably have to go to their legal team before they are allowed to answer me.

 :-DD

OK I sent a question to their Ebay store just now -

http://www.ebaystores.com/keysight

Quote
Hello,

In your equipment listings it is stated -

"For professional and industrial use only"

There has been some discussion on electronics forums from users who have bought Keysight equipment for home use, that Keysight does not provide technical support to them because they are not a "business" but a home hobby user. Can you clarify whether this is true or false - that home hobbyist users who buy Keysight equipment (new or used) will not receive technical support? Are there any countries you sell to whose buyers would not receive technical support if they were a home or hobbyist user?

Thanks,

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