Author Topic: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist  (Read 100202 times)

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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #400 on: June 13, 2022, 08:54:18 am »
Closing a bug report without a reply is not a very responsible thing to do - however, a poorly described bug would not get the same attention. Since in the thread you had to go back and forth a few times to get John to reproduce it, perhaps you could try to resubmit the ticket but this time pointing to the element14 thread?  (if you can spare the time, of course).
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Online tautech

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #401 on: June 13, 2022, 08:57:11 am »
Closing a bug report without a reply is not a very responsible thing to do - however, a poorly described bug would not get the same attention. Since in the thread you had to go back and forth a few times to get John to reproduce it, perhaps you could try to resubmit the ticket but this time pointing to the element14 thread?  (if you can spare the time, of course).
Really, one wonders why one would even go to the trouble when KS is so dismissive of the hobbyist market.
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #402 on: June 13, 2022, 09:04:39 am »
Closing a bug report without a reply is not a very responsible thing to do - however, a poorly described bug would not get the same attention. Since in the thread you had to go back and forth a few times to get John to reproduce it, perhaps you could try to resubmit the ticket but this time pointing to the element14 thread?  (if you can spare the time, of course).
Really, one wonders why one would even go to the trouble when KS is so dismissive of the hobbyist market.
Oh we'll take your money but then you're on your own.  :horse:
I understand, but with all things in life one uses their time to try to get some sort of purpose to help others. Otherwise we wouldn't be spending our time sharing our collective knowledge for free in this forum (or many others around the interwebs).
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Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #403 on: June 13, 2022, 09:15:25 am »
Interesting conversation about this with an actual expert in this yesterday. At least in the UK that is. A company cannot opt out of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 implicitly or explicitly by specifying terms to the contrary. They automatically opt into it on the basis that (a) they agreed to transfer the goods to a consumer and (b) the consumer agrees to pay the price. That is the basis of the legislation being opted in.

The basis here is that Keysight, Farnell, Element 14 etc sell you industrial equipment, they want to wash their hands of you. However regardless of their terms or conditions, if it falls outside of the statutory terms of being of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose or them refusing it repair it, they don't have a case.

So the advice I got is file a moneyclaim (MCOL) against them and wait for them to defend it or ignore it and the magistrate will give them a bollocking and order them to pay you the full retail price back as compensation for you having to even bother the courts system with them being dicks and not understanding the market they are selling into or the legislation. If the magistrate is a particularly good one he'll even compensate you for having to bother with this by forcing them to pay costs.

I suspect KS wouldn't even turn up and just pay up front because it's cheaper than them actually hiring someone.

If a couple of people do that it'll either cause them to close the entire market to consumer (not likely) or start taking people seriously.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 09:17:19 am by bd139 »
 
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #404 on: June 13, 2022, 09:15:46 am »
Closing a bug report without a reply is not a very responsible thing to do - however, a poorly described bug would not get the same attention. Since in the thread you had to go back and forth a few times to get John to reproduce it, perhaps you could try to resubmit the ticket but this time pointing to the element14 thread?  (if you can spare the time, of course).

They closed the ticket because he isn't a corporate client, and not because it was poorly described. That's the real issue.
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #405 on: June 13, 2022, 09:18:49 am »
Interesting conversation about this with an actual expert in this yesterday. At least in the UK that is. A company cannot opt out of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 implicitly or explicitly by specifying terms to the contrary. They automatically opt into it on the basis that (a) they agreed to transfer the goods to a consumer and (b) the consumer agrees to pay the price. That is the basis of the legislation being opted in.

The basis here is that Keysight, Farnell, Element 14 etc sell you industrial equipment, they want to wash their hands of you. However regardless of their terms or conditions, if it falls outside of the statutory terms of being of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose or them refusing it repair it, they don't have a case.

So the advice I got is file a moneyclaim (MCOL) against them and wait for them to defend it or ignore it and the magistrate will give them a bollocking and order them to pay you the full retail price back as compensation for you having to even bother the courts system with them being dicks and not understanding the market they are selling into or the legislation.

If a couple of people do that it'll either cause them to close the entire market to consumer (not likely) or start taking people seriously.

I suspect the cost of paying a few of these claims (which they can probably claw back in tax avoidance one way or another anyway) would be less than actually having to care about non-corporate customers.
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Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #406 on: June 13, 2022, 09:22:26 am »
Probably. If you’re going to hurt them, someone needs to buy a £20k scope as a consumer and claim that back  :-DD
 

Offline Anthocyanina

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #407 on: June 13, 2022, 09:47:57 am »
Closing a bug report without a reply is not a very responsible thing to do - however, a poorly described bug would not get the same attention. Since in the thread you had to go back and forth a few times to get John to reproduce it, perhaps you could try to resubmit the ticket but this time pointing to the element14 thread?  (if you can spare the time, of course).

To clarify, they did give a response when i let them know I was not a corporate client. I did mention that if not being a corporate client meant they wouldn't bother with the case, so be it, and this was their response. When I reported this to Keysight I was more descriptive and added screenshots showing the settings under which the bug happened
 
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Offline m k

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #408 on: June 13, 2022, 10:27:25 am »
Overall situation is pretty simple, general impression is that they cheated.
Take that impression away and everything is ok.

Back in the day all kind of service shops were around and supported by manufacturers or importers, only warranted cases were restricted.
Then manufacturers started grabbing quota and stashed service data, possibly because far east started pushing.

If they are now swinging back to the old ways there's a difference.
Back in the day they didn't meet consumers, those service shops did.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #409 on: June 13, 2022, 10:50:05 am »
Closing a bug report without a reply is not a very responsible thing to do - however, a poorly described bug would not get the same attention. Since in the thread you had to go back and forth a few times to get John to reproduce it, perhaps you could try to resubmit the ticket but this time pointing to the element14 thread?  (if you can spare the time, of course).

To clarify, they did give a response when i let them know I was not a corporate client. I did mention that if not being a corporate client meant they wouldn't bother with the case, so be it, and this was their response. When I reported this to Keysight I was more descriptive and added screenshots showing the settings under which the bug happened
Indeed with that added information it is completely understandable to not pursue this any further. At least your findings are public and becomes a resourceful "known bug" of this unit.   :-+
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #410 on: June 13, 2022, 11:27:34 am »
After I got my function generator from last years event, ...

I would have asked them "Why did Keysight allow me (or the person that gave it to me) to own and possess any of your equipment in the first place if we're not corporate customers?"

 :-//
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Offline ch_scr

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #411 on: June 13, 2022, 11:54:18 am »
Closing a bug report without a reply is not a very responsible thing to do - however, a poorly described bug would not get the same attention. Since in the thread you had to go back and forth a few times to get John to reproduce it, perhaps you could try to resubmit the ticket but this time pointing to the element14 thread?  (if you can spare the time, of course).

To clarify, they did give a response when i let them know I was not a corporate client. I did mention that if not being a corporate client meant they wouldn't bother with the case, so be it, and this was their response. When I reported this to Keysight I was more descriptive and added screenshots showing the settings under which the bug happened
Indeed with that added information it is completely understandable to not pursue this any further. At least your findings are public and becomes a resourceful "known bug" of this unit.   :-+
It's plain stupid to get a "good" bug report and then to discard it on the grounds of "not a corporate customer that complains about it".
A few years and Keysight will be the "Microsoft" of TE companys, on the support decisions they already have reached this level and product quality will follow soon.
By this logic, they should make it a lot harder to file bug reports - there will be (on the corporate statistics) sooo many less bugs in the products  :horse:
They're Too big to fail now...
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #412 on: June 13, 2022, 12:26:27 pm »
On that basis you are not a priority if you probably aren't coming back any time soon. If they are running like that then it's a limping corpse of a company.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #413 on: June 13, 2022, 12:58:08 pm »
Closing a bug report without a reply is not a very responsible thing to do - however, a poorly described bug would not get the same attention. Since in the thread you had to go back and forth a few times to get John to reproduce it, perhaps you could try to resubmit the ticket but this time pointing to the element14 thread?  (if you can spare the time, of course).

To clarify, they did give a response when i let them know I was not a corporate client. I did mention that if not being a corporate client meant they wouldn't bother with the case, so be it, and this was their response. When I reported this to Keysight I was more descriptive and added screenshots showing the settings under which the bug happened
Indeed with that added information it is completely understandable to not pursue this any further. At least your findings are public and becomes a resourceful "known bug" of this unit.   :-+
It's plain stupid to get a "good" bug report and then to discard it on the grounds of "not a corporate customer that complains about it".
I agree and I wonder if such responses were simply blindly following this newfangled policy without critical thinking from an L2 or L3 support teams, but that is a moot point now.

In any case, this is unfortunately not new in the corporate/mass market relationship: joeqsmith's feedback to Gossen, Fluke and Keysight about failures in their DMMs went completely void of acknowledgement. I can cite many other cases where the companies didn't care for the mass market but also didn't sink into oblivion - any company sets a threshold, with KS being the "latest offender" in this regard.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline HalFoster

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #414 on: June 13, 2022, 02:27:23 pm »


Just a quick note applicable to this thread:

Someone I know through work bought a midrange Keysight DMM for home use and had a problem of some sort crop up. Contacted Keysight and was promptly shut down due to being an individual, not a corporate user. As it happens, the person is the head engineer over a particular multi-million dollar program with which I also do work.  As of today, the only Keysight equipment specified is the 3458A because, well, the 3458A.  The other ~31 million worth of spectrum analyzers and signal generators now goes to other manufacturers. That particular program is also not the only one this person is associated with as well as the fact that at that level many procurement decisions are decided on word-of-mouth recommendations. Wonder who will *not* be recommended.

I wish I could find humor in the spectacular miscalculation that is now Keysight but I really only feel sadness at how far they have fallen.  My personal hobby is restoring vintage test equipment, much of which is HP; I am reminded every time I open something else up how elegant the engineering and the care that once went into their products.

I just upgraded some of my own TE: A Keithley DMM7510 and a Siglent SSA3032X Plus - quite a chunk of change for me and none of it went to Keysight.  Might not be all that much to Keysight but I wonder how many others have made the decision that there is more value and service to be found with other manufacturers.

Hal
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Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #415 on: June 13, 2022, 02:46:56 pm »
I suspect that Agilent kept "The HP way"...
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #416 on: June 13, 2022, 02:52:55 pm »

I would guess the overlap between home and professional users of TE is significant...    Not taking care of your customers is rarely a recipe for success, either way.
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #417 on: June 13, 2022, 03:01:54 pm »


Just a quick note applicable to this thread:

Someone I know through work bought a midrange Keysight DMM for home use and had a problem of some sort crop up. Contacted Keysight and was promptly shut down due to being an individual, not a corporate user. As it happens, the person is the head engineer over a particular multi-million dollar program with which I also do work.  As of today, the only Keysight equipment specified is the 3458A because, well, the 3458A.  The other ~31 million worth of spectrum analyzers and signal generators now goes to other manufacturers. That particular program is also not the only one this person is associated with as well as the fact that at that level many procurement decisions are decided on word-of-mouth recommendations. Wonder who will *not* be recommended.


See that's what I can't get here. Why was he "allowed" (gee I need to have permission to buy a DMM  :( ) to buy it at all!  :wtf:

Something is very wrong with this company.
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #418 on: June 13, 2022, 04:47:24 pm »
I suspect that Agilent kept "The HP way"...

It is called KLM now:

https://www.keysight.com/zz/en/about/keysight-s-leadership-model.html

https://www.keysight.com/zz/en/assets/7018-06934/brochures/5992-4135.pdf

They are no longer T&M company. They "refocused" to being solution provider and consulting services company.. And market is only big spenders..

When they issue public strategy for customers where "attracting and rewarding shareholders" is on top of their priorities diagram as represented to potential customer, you know something is wrong....

They did exactly same thing as IBM. They pulled out of anything that isn't high ROI.
T&M equipment is just a miniscule part of providing software solutions and testing services. Their core business is not selling T&M equipment to your company's test or R&D dept. anymore. Now you fire test department and have minimum R&D internally and you outsource it to them.  Apparently huge amount of money is not even T&M anymore..
And what you do get from them is rented..

If you read carefully (not even between the lines reading is necessary) you will see that they know very well they will loose all these customers people are mentioning here. And that is the actual intention... That allows them to refocus to where the money is, the buzzwords: IoT, 5G, Aerospace, Defense, and Government contracts..
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
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Offline madires

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #419 on: June 13, 2022, 05:11:43 pm »
Next step: subscription based T&M - device for free, but you need to pay for a monthly subscription (otherwise the device will be automatically locked) >:D
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #420 on: June 13, 2022, 05:39:37 pm »
Next step: subscription based T&M - device for free, but you need to pay for a monthly subscription (otherwise the device will be automatically locked) >:D

And no equipment will never hit the used market - it will be "taken back" and scrapped!  After all, "they" have a birthright to your money!
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #421 on: June 13, 2022, 05:53:35 pm »
A lot of businesses run on that model already. It makes sense if you’re optimising for opex instead of capex.
 
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #422 on: June 13, 2022, 06:40:17 pm »
Isn't Keysight discriminating against it's customers?

"Keysight’s Hewlett-Packard heritage encompasses a strong culture of respect for the individual that has fostered practices ahead of their time."
https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/3121-1210/flyers/Keysight-Diversity-and-Inclusion.pdf

“We have always placed a high value on diversity and inclusion, and we did so long before it made headlines. One of our core values is to embrace diverse cultures and different ways of thinking. It’s built into our policies, our practices, and is the very fuel that propels our mission, our innovation, and our competitive advantage. But most importantly, it’s the right thing to do.”
- Ron Nersesian, Chairman, President and CEO"

On the one hand they purport to be about the individual (as the founders were) - but sales/support won't acknowledge your existence?
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #423 on: June 13, 2022, 07:04:21 pm »
Isn't Keysight discriminating against it's customers?

"Keysight’s Hewlett-Packard heritage encompasses a strong culture of respect for the individual that has fostered practices ahead of their time."
https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/3121-1210/flyers/Keysight-Diversity-and-Inclusion.pdf

“We have always placed a high value on diversity and inclusion, and we did so long before it made headlines. One of our core values is to embrace diverse cultures and different ways of thinking. It’s built into our policies, our practices, and is the very fuel that propels our mission, our innovation, and our competitive advantage. But most importantly, it’s the right thing to do.”
- Ron Nersesian, Chairman, President and CEO"

On the one hand they purport to be about the individual (as the founders were) - but sales/support won't acknowledge your existence?

Perhaps they scared off their customer team when they started hiring based on inclusion statistics marketing instead of genuine merit  :-//
 

Offline 1design

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #424 on: June 13, 2022, 07:28:49 pm »
After seeing how thing are going with Keyseight, I opted to switch to R&S for our company equipment.
We originally purchased MXA's, but for the last 2 purchases we went with R&S for a microwave signal generator and a 6 GHz scope.

Both companies have similar products and similar pricing, only edge cases are covered by one firm and not by the other. Thus picking equipment almost always based on personal preference. Pushing experienced users away by not offering support for the equipment they get used to when working at home, might not be the brightest idea.

Big money can be lost that way.
 
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