Products > Test Equipment
Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
2N3055:
--- Quote from: switchabl on November 03, 2022, 06:28:26 pm ---
--- Quote from: BillyO on November 03, 2022, 05:29:24 pm ---Most hobbyists can equip an entire lab of instruments that fully meet or exceed their needs for what that PS costs.
--- End quote ---
That is thinking like a business though (somewhat ironically). For your hobby, if you decide you like something and it's worth it to you, then you can just go and buy it. It does not have to be cost-effective. :-//
--- End quote ---
You forgot that you might like something very much and have no money to buy it. I really like Porsche 911 GT3 RS, and I think it is worth the money. There is only little problem that I don't have 200000€ for something that has no practical value but would be just a toy. Where I need to go little Skoda can take me well enough. Actually being rational (or frugal) with money is more common in private life than companies.
We are not discussing principles but realites. Fact that some people are wealthy doesn't make a difference in fact that 99% of hobby users cannot afford something. And you got to be wealthy to buy 2300€ PSU for hobby when 100€ one does the job for 95% of user cases, and one that cost half the money has equal capabilities and is also good quality and will do the same job.
Argument here is that of volume of sales not democracy or human rights. Practically no hobby user (as in prevalent majority) will buy that PSU Nico bought. That is reality. Neither did he, he bought it for business. All of his advice that "it pays to buy expensive because it saves you time or whatever" is sometimes very true in professional environment, but in hobby environment prevalent problem is that people can choose to buy diapers or something for their hobby. Purchases are basically made with pocket money and minor savings. There is also huge difference in purchasing power between people, not to mention between countries. Some people can give 3000-4000€ for scope, for some 500€ is a stretch.
All of this points to reality that Keysight basically have no profits from hobby market. Why would they care for it then? It is good business decision not to invest anything into that market. What sells, sells by inertia and that's it. Sales to private citizens are different type of trade than selling to companies. You need different marketing approach, sales channel is different, you even employ different type of salesman and people on support. That costs significant money, and cannot be charged additionally because private customers don't care for that.
That is the reason for all the changes in Keysight lately. Corporate reorganization and optimization.
Which is something I have no problem with and I completely understand why they do it.
And they clearly and honestly tell you : please, we don't work with private customers.
nctnico:
--- Quote from: BillyO on November 03, 2022, 07:34:15 pm --- That I also don't have an issue with, but sayig something like:
--- Quote ---In general it is not like the B-brands are equivalent to the A-brands in any way.
--- End quote ---
Not only sounds elitist but also belies what you just said above. Equivalence depends on requirements. For instance, the Siglent SPD3303 is equivalent to your Keysight in many respects and even exceeds in some while not meeting in others.
--- End quote ---
I have wasted several k euro to learn that the B brands are not equivalent to A brands. So either you have to spend time to very carefully examine B brand equipment or just buy A brand equipment. The new Rigol PSU 2N3055 mentioned is a good example. It costs a considerable amount of money and at those price levels I think it is better to go a step up and just buy the A brand.
--- Quote ---If you need the additional current of the Siglent the Keysight will just fail miserably to meet your needs despite being an "A" brand and costing 4 times as much.
--- End quote ---
No, you just buy an A brand PSU which can deliver more current / voltage.
Martin72:
A-Brands, B-Brands...C,D,E,F,G... ;)
For brands like Tektronix, R&S, Lecroy, Keysight, Yokogawa you pay the name, the quality, for the deacdes of research they spent and finally for the service they offer.
And the prices are in spheres, no "normal" hobbyist could/would afford.
So for me the consequence was to ignore them... ;)
It makes no sense to compare it with the stuff I could buy for the money I have(for the hobby).
Simply this.
Example my "new" siglent HD scope.
It´s a really good scope "even" for the money it cost(appx 3500€ is not really hobby-price), this I can say about it while I´m working with "bigger" stuff everyday in the company.
But it would never come in my mind to compare it with the 12 bit scope from lecroy we got.
Because it´s simply unfair.
Better compare it to a one which cost near by or similar.
But more and more I got a feeling here in the forum, people expect to get stuff which is comparable to the ones they never can afford.
Because they spend 1000 instead of 500 bucks...
So what, for this money you can´t get even a simple software license from one of the top brands ( better naming IMHO instead A,B..).
And there are people here in the forum, who always argue from the "pro side" - which makes in most cases no sense.
Because we´re talking about stuff hobbyists can afford.
rsjsouza:
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on November 03, 2022, 09:25:45 pm ---We are not discussing principles but realites. Fact that some people are wealthy doesn't make a difference in fact that 99% of hobby users cannot afford something. And you got to be wealthy to buy 2300€ PSU for hobby when 100€ one does the job for 95% of user cases, and one that cost half the money has equal capabilities and is also good quality and will do the same job.
Argument here is that of volume of sales not democracy or human rights. Practically no hobby user (as in prevalent majority) will buy that PSU Nico bought. That is reality. Neither did he, he bought it for business. All of his advice that "it pays to buy expensive because it saves you time or whatever" is sometimes very true in professional environment, but in hobby environment prevalent problem is that people can choose to buy diapers or something for their hobby. Purchases are basically made with pocket money and minor savings. There is also huge difference in purchasing power between people, not to mention between countries. Some people can give 3000-4000€ for scope, for some 500€ is a stretch.
All of this points to reality that Keysight basically have no profits from hobby market. Why would they care for it then? It is good business decision not to invest anything into that market. What sells, sells by inertia and that's it. Sales to private citizens are different type of trade than selling to companies. You need different marketing approach, sales channel is different, you even employ different type of salesman and people on support. That costs significant money, and cannot be charged additionally because private customers don't care for that.
That is the reason for all the changes in Keysight lately. Corporate reorganization and optimization.
Which is something I have no problem with and I completely understand why they do it.
And they clearly and honestly tell you : please, we don't work with private customers.
--- End quote ---
Sinisa, shame on you! You are making too much sense with your balanced view!
As I said before, Keysight's upper management tried an experiment and gave some rope to the PR and marketing folks to ride the "maker" bandwagon and focus on the mass market for a few years. After a reevaluation of the fruits of this initiative they saw that expenses are high, demands are high and profits are low and decided to pull the plug and face the bad PR.
This happens all the time in the industry and comes and goes in cycles. Nothing new here.
nctnico:
--- Quote from: Martin72 on November 03, 2022, 10:57:00 pm ---A-Brands, B-Brands...C,D,E,F,G... ;)
For brands like Tektronix, R&S, Lecroy, Keysight, Yokogawa you pay the name, the quality, for the deacdes of research they spent and finally for the service they offer.
And the prices are in spheres, no "normal" hobbyist could/would afford.
Because we´re talking about stuff hobbyists can afford.
--- End quote ---
Sorry, but the whole 'it is for hobby so it must be cheap' stance like some tend to cling to is idiotic. Go tell that to shops that sell 5k euro bicycles or audio gear that starts at 10k. Or how much does a gaming PC cost nowadays? I see gaming PCs that cost 10k euro just for the PC alone. Or how about metal working? There is a huge list of hobbies that cost several k euro just to buy some gear. No, things shouldn't be cheap because it is just for hobby. That is nonsense. Gear for hobby is worth what you are willing to spend on it.
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