Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

[vk6zgo]

What type of buisinesses the EDUX series of Keysight equipment is for?  Clearly it is a consumer level product.

I worked at a billion-dollar corporation that wouldn't let me buy a $3000 Keysight oscilloscope.

They bought 4 Rigols instead.

When I worked at a TV station, I could condemn a "end of life" PA tube in one of the transmitters, replace it with a new one costing $A12000, but I had to get permission for an issue of $A100 from Petty Cash!

[justanothername]

Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use.

What is the difference then?

Anyway good that you make this public. I hope this backfires accordingly.

[AndyC_772]

EMC, probably.

A product which is "for personal, domestic or household use" must meet class B emissions, so as not to interfere with TV and radio reception in a residential area.

Products for professional / industrial use only need to meet class A.

[Bud]

What type of buisinesses the EDUX series of Keysight equipment is for?  Clearly it is a consumer level product.

I worked at a billion-dollar corporation that wouldn't let me buy a $3000 Keysight oscilloscope.

They bought 4 Rigols instead.

But that was not Keysight's fault 

[george.b]

First, they endorsed that case modded liquid cooled RGB oscilloscope atrocity for maker cred or whatever was it that they were thinking. Now this. Seems schizophrenic to me.

[Jester]

From my perspective it feels like the world is becoming unglued. If I purchase anything with that label it it will be older with an available schematic.

[Bud]

Such shifts are often much more prosaic and caused by changes in company's leadership.
Looking at Keysight news, they had two major changes in 2020 - their CTO retired and a new one was appointed, and they got a new head of Electronics Measurements division.
"Corporate values" are for regular employees. Big bosses do as they feel when they wake up in the morning.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Does anyone have specific reports by continent?
My impression from previous reports was that it was mostly a Europe issue, presumably to avoid liabilities under EU consumer laws.
Anyone from the USA been told they won't be supported/supplied?

[floobydust]

Nobody at Keysight would stick their neck out to explain this anti-customer policy. Whomever came up with it needs to get off the golf course and issue a statement. It just looks terrible.
Keysight's use of the word "professional use", many of us here are licensed engineers and compare with educational users - not buyers - but amateurs and students using the products. Some kind of crime?

The best excuse I could come up with is KS blocking sales of multimeters to terrorists but Ref. the $6.6M fine Keysight, 15 of 24 export violations selling to the commies.
"Multi Emitter Scenario Generation (MESG) software, which is capable of generating multiple signals needed to test radar equipment by simulating electronic warfare threat scenarios" against Arms Export Control Act (AECA) and International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR).

You lousy rotten hobbists and small fish in the pond. We only sell where the big money is even if unethical.

[nctnico]

They all go for the 'if it's broken buy a new one' profit maximization - can't make that much money with service.

It isn't. In the end it is all up to the consumers. For example: In the early 90's you could phone someone half way around the world and the sound quality was like the person was sitting next to you. It was expensive though. But then the telecom market become more and more liberated and cheaper phone companies popped up. Their sound quality was awful and often you needed to repeat what you said 3 times before the other party got what you where saying but consumers fell for it by big numbers. In the end the established phone companies had to lower their service level in order to remain competitive.

IOW: what Keysight (and Tektronix) are doing is what we have voted for through our wallets by buying the cheaper Chinese gear.

[bdunham7]

IOW: what Keysight (and Tektronix) are doing is what we have voted for through our wallets by buying the cheaper Chinese gear.

I have a Tek scope that cost over $6K a over a decade ago, before the Siglent and Rigol stuff was really competitive, and it was made in China by/for Tektronix.  Keysight sold a rebranded Rigol product, right?  I can't recall which one.  So don't blame the lower end consumer for buying 'cheaper Chinese gear' when that is exactly what the A-brands are trying to sell them anyway, just for more money.

In any case, the A-brands are within their rights to only purse whatever segments of the market they like.  But there seems to be some discrepancies in how they are going about it, at least in the UK.  I haven't heard of any similar issues in the US--how about where you are?

[nctnico]

IOW: what Keysight (and Tektronix) are doing is what we have voted for through our wallets by buying the cheaper Chinese gear.

I have a Tek scope that cost over $6K a over a decade ago, before the Siglent and Rigol stuff was really competitive, and it was made in China by/for Tektronix.  Keysight sold a rebranded Rigol product, right?  I can't recall which one.  So don't blame the lower end consumer for buying 'cheaper Chinese gear' when that is exactly what the A-brands are trying to sell them anyway, just for more money.

You are overlooking one major factor here: the cost of modern day test equipment isn't in the hardware but in the software. The latter is where the A-brands excel due to decades of experience, accumulated knowledge and software libraries that went through many optimisation & bug fixing cycles.

[kcbrown]

How about when the reseller goes bust then Keysight refuses to even let you pay for service/calibration, and you're left with a brick?

Edit: to expand on this, it would be reasonable for KS to direct you back to the reseller in the first place, but that's not what is happening here by the looks of things.

Go to a different reseller. See the car analogy; there are many who can service your car. Test equipment is not different in any way. For example: there is an Eevblog member (forgot the name) who specialises in repairing test equipment from Tektronix / Agilent /Keysight at the component level.

Why would a reseller that you didn't buy your equipment from help you?  They're likely under no obligation to do that.  Now, if you pay them that's something else, but they can still refuse the transaction.

Car dealerships are obligated by the manufacturer to, at a minimum, handle all warranty claims against any of their cars, and might even be obligated to perform non-warranty service as well.  If a test equipment reseller has the same kind of contract with the manufacturer that car dealerships do, then they'll be obligated to deal with warranty claims.  Absent such a contract, they have no obligation to anyone who didn't purchase from them.

[nctnico]

How about when the reseller goes bust then Keysight refuses to even let you pay for service/calibration, and you're left with a brick?

Edit: to expand on this, it would be reasonable for KS to direct you back to the reseller in the first place, but that's not what is happening here by the looks of things.

Go to a different reseller. See the car analogy; there are many who can service your car. Test equipment is not different in any way. For example: there is an Eevblog member (forgot the name) who specialises in repairing test equipment from Tektronix / Agilent /Keysight at the component level.

Why would a reseller that you didn't buy your equipment from help you?  They're likely under no obligation to do that.  Now, if you pay them that's something else, but they can still refuse the transaction.

Car dealerships are obligated by the manufacturer to, at a minimum, handle all warranty claims against any of their cars, and might even be obligated to perform non-warranty service as well.  If a test equipment reseller has the same kind of contract with the manufacturer that car dealerships do, then they'll be obligated to deal with warranty claims.  Absent such a contract, they have no obligation to anyone who didn't purchase from them.

I hope you see you already answered your own question here.  BTW, car dealerships get paid by the manufacturers to deal with manufacturer warranty & recalls even for cars that are not bought from that particular dealership. It is a simple matter of outsourcing work to parties better equiped to deal with consumers. For example: a couple of years ago we owned a car that needed some parts replaced due to a recall. We bought that car from a private person but nevertheless the local dealer (from which we have never bought anything) for the brand took care of the replacement with very little hassle on our side.

[pope]

That's a different scenario. Usually, "Recall = dangerous". Companies will do anything and at all costs to replace recalled parts in order to avoid further troubles (i.e lawsuits).

[John B]

I think in Australia Keysight could probably take steps to avoid sales to individuals, but by law wouldn't be able to deny warranty. I don't know about offering after sales support.

However what I find most egregious is that with the big name brands you pay a premium for them. You're not just paying for the unit itself but also (hopefully) for access to an ecosystem of after sales support and warranty.

For them to take your money at a premium but then deny part of that bargain is very low behaviour.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I don't think warranty service is an issue here as that is effectively part of the sales contract, and not something they would be able to easily avoid.
AIUI it's more about avoiding having to deal with the additional rights granted under consumer law for, consumer transactions.

[kcbrown]

I hope you see you already answered your own question here.  BTW, car dealerships get paid by the manufacturers to deal with manufacturer warranty & recalls even for cars that are not bought from that particular dealership. It is a simple matter of outsourcing work to parties better equiped to deal with consumers. For example: a couple of years ago we owned a car that needed some parts replaced due to a recall. We bought that car from a private person but nevertheless the local dealer for the brand took care of the replacement with very little hassle on our side.

Everything depends on the contractual terms.

Dealers are paid some amount by the manufacturer to deal with a warranty claim, but that doesn't mean it's a profit center for the dealer.  That depends entirely on the nature of the issue and of the reimbursement.  Car dealerships don't (that I've seen) get reimbursed for their actual time spent on the issue, but rather on the basis of a predetermined amount given the nature of the issue.  But that's obviously dependent upon the contract.  Who knows how that works for test equipment vendors.

Nothing says that a test equipment vendor will deal with warranty claims in the same way, because nothing says that they *must* have any sort of similar contract with the manufacturer.

And as already noted, recalls are different from warranties.  Recalls for test equipment would probably be something the manufacturer would be willing to handle directly.  What we're talking about here is warranty claims and general non-warranty service claims.

[madires]

They all go for the 'if it's broken buy a new one' profit maximization - can't make that much money with service.

It isn't. In the end it is all up to the consumers. For example: In the early 90's you could phone someone half way around the world and the sound quality was like the person was sitting next to you. It was expensive though. But then the telecom market become more and more liberated and cheaper phone companies popped up. Their sound quality was awful and often you needed to repeat what you said 3 times before the other party got what you where saying but consumers fell for it by big numbers. In the end the established phone companies had to lower their service level in order to remain competitive.

IOW: what Keysight (and Tektronix) are doing is what we have voted for through our wallets by buying the cheaper Chinese gear.

Let's consider the historical development. From a hobbyist standpoint professional T&M devices from the well known T&M power houses were simply to expensive several years ago. An affordable way was to buy used devices or to buy from manufacturers like Hameg. With the rising of less expensive Chinese manuafcturers that situation changed and the T&M power houses started to enter the hobbyist/maker market with low-end models, which still cost about two or three times more. But most of us know from their professional experience that they get great service from the T&M power houses, a good reason to pay more. And now the hobbyists who paid more don't get the service they expect and paid for. Of course, the power houses sell less low-end gear when most hobyists buy from Chinese manufacturers, however, it was clear from the start that they have to comepete via good service. So we can't blame consumers for the current situation. Looks more likely to be a failed market entry.

[nctnico]

They all go for the 'if it's broken buy a new one' profit maximization - can't make that much money with service.

It isn't. In the end it is all up to the consumers. For example: In the early 90's you could phone someone half way around the world and the sound quality was like the person was sitting next to you. It was expensive though. But then the telecom market become more and more liberated and cheaper phone companies popped up. Their sound quality was awful and often you needed to repeat what you said 3 times before the other party got what you where saying but consumers fell for it by big numbers. In the end the established phone companies had to lower their service level in order to remain competitive.

IOW: what Keysight (and Tektronix) are doing is what we have voted for through our wallets by buying the cheaper Chinese gear.

Let's consider the historical development. From a hobbyist standpoint professional T&M devices from the well known T&M power houses were simply to expensive several years ago. An affordable way was to buy used devices or to buy from manufacturers like Hameg. With the rising of less expensive Chinese manuafcturers that situation changed and the T&M power houses started to enter the hobbyist/maker market with low-end models, which still cost about two or three times more. But most of us know from their professional experience that they get great service from the T&M power houses, a good reason to pay more. And now the hobbyists who paid more don't get the service they expect and paid for. Of course, the power houses sell less low-end gear when most hobyists buy from Chinese manufacturers, however, it was clear from the start that they have to comepete via good service. So we can't blame consumers for the current situation. Looks more likely to be a failed market entry.

From where do you reach the conclusion a reseller can't give you good support? In the end that is what you are saying.

I agree that whether you get good service highly depends on who you are buying from but stating that good support can only come from a manufacturer is a false statement.

[TheBay]

This type of response doesn't surprise me, seems like they still have inherited HP's ignorant, arrogant and completely out of touch attitude.
As a HP Certified Professional I wonder if they will speak to me 

[J-R]

The fact is that global manufacturing and supply chains have been greatly affected by the pandemic.  Extra precautions, labor shortages, even huge fluctuations in buying habits which makes things hard to predict.

So it makes some sense Keysight is perhaps deciding they are focusing on their business customers or otherwise changing their practices.  And as has been mentioned already, it seems relatively straightforward to make yourself appear as a business to Keysight if you require warranty service.

Personally, I really like all of my HP/Agilent/Keysight equipment and plan to keep on buying more of it.  I prefer used with no warranty.  Then I can disassemble, modify, tinker, etc. as I see fit.

[BrokenYugo]

This kind of plays into my theory that golden age of e-commerce is dead. The internet opened up a lot of industrial stuff to the public, and now they're all probably remembering why they didn't do that historically. If you ignore how it pisses off some people who do put in big orders, as shown in this thread, i.e. typical corporate shortsightedness, it's probably not terribly profitable to deal with the public between the volume and privileges granted to consumers under law that a certain percentage are sure to abuse.

Yup! Our local Keysight office decline all request from hobbyists... a couple years... 5 or 6 years...
But if you are crazy hobbyist professional, it's not a problem at all... Just go to register you own LLC, it's easy.

After register my own LLC, i can use many a "special restricted" shops like as chemicals factory's, gold alloys factory, radioactive isotope suppliers and more fun toys suppliers professional tools suppliers.
And... of course... LLC helps me open backdoor to laboratory of national primary standards for increase my fun to completely insane level professional skills.

Going forward a cheap LLC is probably the best solution, small customers aren't going to convince giant corporations to do anything, so you have to play by their asinine rules.

[Zucca]

I used to love and support Keysight.
...but this is like an old friend turning his back to you.

I am sorry, I am out.

#VATIDisKey

[graybeard]

OK I sent a question to their Ebay store just now -

http://www.ebaystores.com/keysight

Hello,

In your equipment listings it is stated -

"For professional and industrial use only"

There has been some discussion on electronics forums from users who have bought Keysight equipment for home use, that Keysight does not provide technical support to them because they are not a "business" but a home hobby user. Can you clarify whether this is true or false - that home hobbyist users who buy Keysight equipment (new or used) will not receive technical support? Are there any countries you sell to whose buyers would not receive technical support if they were a home or hobbyist user?

Thanks,

I rephrased the above question slightly and sent it to Keysight.   I just received the following response:



So I looked at their terms and conditions and there is no 4J.   However item 7J states:

Products are intended for professional and industrial use only, and are not suitable for consumer or household use, and Customer represents and warrants that it is not acquiring Products for such uses. Consumer or household use, or use outside of the Specification for the Product, will nullify Sections 2(a), (b) and (e), 4(a) and (b), 5(b) and 6 of these Terms and void the warranty terms set out, or incorporated in, Section 3. Products are not specifically designed, manufactured or intended for sale as parts, components or assemblies for the planning, construction, maintenance or direct operation of a nuclear facility. Keysight shall not be liable for any damages resulting from such use.