Products > Test Equipment
Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
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nctnico:

--- Quote from: james_s on November 04, 2022, 01:43:39 am ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 03, 2022, 11:15:56 pm ---Sorry, but the whole 'it is for hobby so it must be cheap' stance like some tend to cling to is idiotic. Go tell that to shops that sell 5k euro bicycles or audio gear that starts at 10k. Or how much does a gaming PC cost nowadays? I see gaming PCs that cost 10k euro just for the PC alone. Or how about metal working? There is a huge list of hobbies that cost several k euro just to buy some gear. No, things shouldn't be cheap because it is just for hobby. That is nonsense. Gear for hobby is worth what you are willing to spend on it.

--- End quote ---

Only the most serious hobbyists with either lots of disposable income, or a very limited range of hobbies allowing them to focus entirely on one thing spend that kind of money. I fly model airplanes and there are guys that spend thousands on beautiful scale models and at other clubs there are even some that spend tens of thousands on giant scale models or jets that have real miniature turbine engines. Those are the outliers though, the vast majority of us fly cheap foamies or self built balsa planes costing a few hundred bucks or less.

So yes, hobby gear should be cheap relative to what most companies are buying, those companies are using that gear to make money, hobbyists in general are not. Out of everyone I know, there is ONE serious audiophile that has spent tens of thousands on gear. Similarly I know ONE serious cyclist that has an expensive bicycle. I don't know any hobbyist that has a $12K A-brand scope or whatever, they all either have budget range Rigol, Siglent, etc or they have decades old A-brand stuff. On the flip side, I don't know of any large corporations that are using low end hobbyist scopes or 30 year old gear from ebay.

--- End quote ---
I suggest to start adding up the cost of a hobby like model airplanes. For sure you are not spending $12k at once but if you are into a hobby for a while, the cost start adding up to several $k easely. 50 here, 100 there, etc it adds up.

And it goes for other things as well. Recently I calculated that next year we'll have burned about 34k euro worth of gasoline in one of our cars (which is an efficient model when it came out; nothing fancy). But since filling up is a relatively small amount of money, you tend to forget about it but 'expensive' repairs feel like an awful lot of money because it is spend all at once. However, in the grand scheme of things a one time 1k euro repair is not really significant compared to the total costs.
Someone:

--- Quote from: james_s on November 04, 2022, 01:43:39 am ---On the flip side, I don't know of any large corporations that are using low end hobbyist scopes or 30 year old gear from ebay.
--- End quote ---
Various workplaces I know of use "low rent" gear when appropriate, but companies like Rigol and Siglent are re-defining value/competition and have real presence on lab/test benches/stations.
BillyO:

--- Quote from: nctnico on November 04, 2022, 02:28:31 am ---I suggest to start adding up the cost of a hobby like model airplanes. For sure you are not spending $12k at once but if you are into a hobby for a while, the cost start adding up to several $k easely. 50 here, 100 there, etc it adds up.

--- End quote ---
Yeah, it does.  It adds up a whole quicker when you spend 5 times as much on each thing.  But that is not really the point.  It's okay to spend $2.7K on a PS, it's not okay to denegrate someone for spending $500 on a PS (that more than meets their needs) just because it's not your style.

It's not as though I'm not speaking from experience.  While my electronics lab would set you back about $6K total, the same is not rue for my photography kit.  That cost me in excess of $35K.  However .. I'm a decent photographer and that stuff has paid for itself.  It's still a hobby, but over 2 decades I've made enough chump change to settle the mortgage.  Still, I don't tell the guy with the $500 Canon Rebel he's just playing with junk.  If he's getting pictures he likes of his actives and family that's just awesome!  The important thing is he is enjoying his hobby.  Will he stand a chance of becoming a Pulitzer prize winning photo journalist with that gear .. not likely.

I make my own little 8-bit computers, and I delve into retro computers, plus I fix some stuff for friends.  I just bought a Siglent 2104X+ and tickled it to 500MHz etc..  I have some other Siglent stuff too, like 5.5 digit DMM a 60 MHz WFG and another 4ch 200MHz scope add to that my Korad PS, a UNI-T 3.5 digit DMM, a JunceTek 60MHz WFG, a Tek 475 scope, a Fluke 8018 DMM, a Brymen BM789 .. a ton of other stuff of all kinds, but as you can see it's quite a bit more than I really need.  Enough to equip 3 workstations.  To you it's probably all junk, to me it way more than "gets the job done".

I no longer make money from electronics.  I do it as a pastime.  It's fun, and the "b" and "c" and ancient "a" equipment I have never leaves me wanting.  If i buy something new (like the SDS2104x+) it's mostly just a personal treat - a toy.  I do have a project in mind that will benefit from having it, but if that project never materialized in favor of something else, then so be it.  It's just a hobby.  One of several in my life.  I don't need a $15K (or $150K) scope to get the job done.

If you have a need for something better - fair enough.  But you don't have to try to make others feel bad about buying a $800 Rigol.  It's probably 200% more than they need and a lot of money to spend on their pastime.

Oh, and another thing, I get fantastic support for my Siglent and Korad junk.  I had questions for both of them recently and I got put in touch with technicians in hours, not days .. or told to take a hike.

Anyway I'm rambling.  You do you, I'll just plod along as usual. 

The funny thing is, most of my friends think I have gone overboard.
maxwell3e10:
Some people derive satisfaction from how expensive their hobby equipment is and some people derive satisfaction from how cheap it is, with often a factor of 100 difference in price for broadly similar performance.

For electronics hobby there is usually no time pressure, so one can understand equipment limitations and extract the most from it. For a company given the time pressure and varying sophistication of users there is more of a tendency to over-specify and use top brands. But as often as not I find that approach disappointing because specifications are now written to present equipment in best light, instead of conservatively, even for A-brands. So ultimately money is not a substitute for careful evaluation.



AVGresponding:

--- Quote from: 2N3055 on November 03, 2022, 09:25:45 pm ---We are not discussing principles but realites. Fact that some people are wealthy doesn't make a difference in fact that 99% of hobby users cannot afford something. And you got to be wealthy to buy 2300€ PSU for hobby when 100€ one does the job for 95% of user cases, and one that cost half the money has equal capabilities and is also good quality and will do the same job.
Argument here is that of volume of sales not democracy or human rights. Practically no hobby user (as in prevalent majority) will buy that PSU Nico bought. That is reality. Neither did he, he bought it for business. All of his advice that "it pays to buy expensive because it saves you time or whatever" is sometimes very true in professional environment, but in hobby environment prevalent problem is that people can choose to buy diapers or something for their hobby. Purchases are basically made with pocket money and minor savings. There is also huge difference in purchasing power between people, not to mention between countries. Some people can give 3000-4000€ for scope, for some 500€ is a stretch.

All of this points to reality that Keysight basically have no profits from hobby market. Why would they care for it then? It is good business decision not to invest anything into that market. What sells, sells by inertia and that's it. Sales to private citizens are different type of trade than selling to companies. You need different marketing approach, sales channel is different, you even employ different type of salesman and people on support. That costs significant money, and cannot be charged additionally because private customers don't care for that.
That is the reason for all the changes in Keysight lately. Corporate reorganization and optimization.
Which is something I have no problem with and I completely understand why they do it.
And they clearly and honestly tell you : please, we don't work with private customers.

--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: rsjsouza on November 03, 2022, 10:59:45 pm ---Sinisa, shame on you! You are making too much sense with your balanced view!

As I said before, Keysight's upper management tried an experiment and gave some rope to the PR and marketing folks to ride the "maker" bandwagon and focus on the mass market for a few years. After a reevaluation of the fruits of this initiative they saw that expenses are high, demands are high and profits are low and decided to pull the plug and face the bad PR.

This happens all the time in the industry and comes and goes in cycles. Nothing new here.

--- End quote ---

This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one. Bill and Ted Dave built the business on the opposite, long-termist approach, of engineering as good a product as possible, and supporting it as well as possible with good documentation and parts/service availability.
Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

The point here is that Keysight are trying to both have their cake and eat it; they are still promoting their products through youtube content makers, not to mention the big glossy ad in the header here, but are not interested in supporting the custom that comes their way due to it.

And, at least when it comes to handheld DMMs, both joesmith and my own experience indicate that this so called A brand is inferior to other A brands, and inferior to some B and C brands.
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