Products > Test Equipment

Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

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AVGresponding:

--- Quote from: 2N3055 on November 04, 2022, 10:56:31 am ---
--- Quote from: Black Phoenix on November 04, 2022, 09:42:37 am ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 06:33:06 am ---This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one. Bill and Ted Dave built the business on the opposite, long-termist approach, of engineering as good a product as possible, and supporting it as well as possible with good documentation and parts/service availability.
Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

The point here is that Keysight are trying to both have their cake and eat it; they are still promoting their products through youtube content makers, not to mention the big glossy ad in the header here, but are not interested in supporting the custom that comes their way due to it.

And, at least when it comes to handheld DMMs, both joesmith and my own experience indicate that this so called A brand is inferior to other A brands, and inferior to some B and C brands.

--- End quote ---

Finally someone touch it. It was exactly, almost word by word, what I was thinking on writing.

The work is made already for the corporate customers because it is an "added value" and something that corporate expect when they spend their budgets into any equipment.

It is easy to also provide it to non corporate customers specially when you still push your equipments in websites as this and selected YouTube celebrities/makers.

--- End quote ---

You are both quite wrong. Selling and supporting retail customers is so different you need to have what amounts to paralel  company to do so. Everything is different, including product. You cannot do it "on the side". It is huge cost if you don't plan to make a good business of it. And they don't.

Pushing to private customers is not happening. What we see are remnants of previous strategy that are not aligned yet. It's a huge multinational corporation, it has inertia. Yes you have link to Ebay store. But if you click on it there you can see "no retail customer" warning. For support, they will provide warranty but through point of sales. As far as youtube, go check. Is there any sponsored Keysight Youtube targeted to hobby users from year 2022? There is none. All the videos are old...

--- End quote ---

Clearly we don't watch the same channels. I'm not going to post a wall of YT vids here for obvious reason, but suffice it to say, you are incorrect. Defpom, Marco Reps, Electroboom, all have sponsored or equipment provided videos from this year, and let's not forget the Keysight visit to Curios Marc's lab, used on Keysight's own channel for PR purposes, if not direct marketing.
I'd have to re-watch TSP's Fieldfox vid to remember if Keysight leant it him; might have been that TE reseller that he repairs stuff for.

AVGresponding:

--- Quote from: rsjsouza on November 04, 2022, 02:33:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 06:33:06 am ---This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one.
--- End quote ---

"Reductionist" by considering the vast majority of the world's population that does not have the buying power of upper North America or Western Europe? Ok, then.  :palm:
--- End quote ---

What? Er, no. Reductionist in that the argument is presented as a zero-sum game. It isn't.



--- Quote from: rsjsouza on November 04, 2022, 02:33:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 06:33:06 am ---Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.
--- End quote ---
Following the elephant in the room logic: In the internet era, this is an outdated view. The idea that students are plowing through long documentation to better understand their equipment is unreal in the age of Google and fora like this one. Sure, they may get to the manual later in the game where they got familiar with it, but the decision to give their money away is minimally influenced by documentation. Also, purchasing decisions have many more considerations than familiarity with the equipment, especially for the hobbyist market where cost and bang per buck is much more valuable (Rigol's success is almost 100% credited to that). A similar thing for the professional market.

I have been seeing this behavioral tectonic shift for the past 30+ years, so it is not just my opinion.
--- End quote ---

And yet, it is just your opinion, your "evidence" is anecdotal, at best. You are ascribing motivations to other people, presumably based on your own. My motivations when choosing equipment are definitely not those. And to pretend that the Keysight prize giveaway to students is anything other than marketing is pure disingenuousness or perhaps naivete.

If you're choosing something without looking at the documentation first, you're an idiot. How could you possibly know whether something meets your needs without first reading the specs at the very least?

2N3055:

--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 02:51:01 pm ---
--- Quote from: rsjsouza on November 04, 2022, 02:33:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 06:33:06 am ---This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one.
--- End quote ---

"Reductionist" by considering the vast majority of the world's population that does not have the buying power of upper North America or Western Europe? Ok, then.  :palm:
--- End quote ---

What? Er, no. Reductionist in that the argument is presented as a zero-sum game. It isn't.



--- Quote from: rsjsouza on November 04, 2022, 02:33:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 06:33:06 am ---Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.
--- End quote ---
Following the elephant in the room logic: In the internet era, this is an outdated view. The idea that students are plowing through long documentation to better understand their equipment is unreal in the age of Google and fora like this one. Sure, they may get to the manual later in the game where they got familiar with it, but the decision to give their money away is minimally influenced by documentation. Also, purchasing decisions have many more considerations than familiarity with the equipment, especially for the hobbyist market where cost and bang per buck is much more valuable (Rigol's success is almost 100% credited to that). A similar thing for the professional market.

I have been seeing this behavioral tectonic shift for the past 30+ years, so it is not just my opinion.
--- End quote ---

And yet, it is just your opinion, your "evidence" is anecdotal, at best. You are ascribing motivations to other people, presumably based on your own. My motivations when choosing equipment are definitely not those. And to pretend that the Keysight prize giveaway to students is anything other than marketing is pure disingenuousness or perhaps naivete.

If you're choosing something without looking at the documentation first, you're an idiot. How could you possibly know whether something meets your needs without first reading the specs at the very least?

--- End quote ---


You are typical of one of those people I said that are exception to the rule, you have such attitude because you have such purchasing power that allows you to be elitist. Simple as that.  Good for you. For most people that isn't so. Does that mean you think they are stupid because of that? I hope not.

You should do more facts and less insults..

Documentation for retail customer is different. Support structure is different. Repair structure is different.
Because customer expectations are different, skillset is different, purchasing patterns are different.

And all those services are available from all manufacturers not only Keysight. And legendary documentation of HP is no more. Service manuals are joke, disassembly,no schematic, part numbers list: knobs, buttons, mainboard assembly, screen. Look at Siglent Service manuals, they are no worse than Keysight.
User manuals? Keysight user manual for 3000T is taksative enumeration of menus. There are no tutorials, in depth explanations... I actually had to figure details out from SCPI manual, there was more details...Actually Tektronix still has some old documents and provide a little more of in depth knowledge.

There is no added value in hobby market segment from A brands, because they don't want to spend money on something that does not have return.
They rely on snobbery and naivety of fanboys that are making it a religion... As I said, everybody makes their choices, but facts are facts. Writing is on the wall.




nctnico:
Sorry but you are totally off the mark here. It sounds more like you are trying to persuade yourself A brands are not worth the extra money rather than making actual sense.

The fact that Keysight is clearly targeting the maker community by product placement in videos from influencers in the maker community tells me loud & clear that Keysight is very interested in reaching the maker / hobbyist community AND that this thread is way overblown. In the end there are 2 or 3 persons that didn't got the support they thought they where entitled to and turned that into a shitstorm with a lot of parrots and hyperbole. But we have been over that before.

TERRA Operative:
Well, I can personally confirm that Keysight Japan wouldn't even talk to me until I gave them proof of business, then their service was excellent.

As a hobbyist, I was completely stuck without service or warranty even with a valid warranty claim on my 34461A bench multimeter, but I am able to use my friend's (and boss) business documents and their service has been fantastic since, including picking up and returning my multimeter repaired and calibrated.

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