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Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

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Nominal Animal:

--- Quote from: nctnico on November 04, 2022, 04:25:05 pm ---Sorry but you are totally off the mark here. It sounds more like you are trying to persuade yourself A brands are not worth the extra money rather than making actual sense.
--- End quote ---
I find the entire idea of "brand" and even more so "brand class" of having any kind of reliable correlation with device quality, utility, or price-to-performance ratio, to be utterly wonky.

Brands are marketing, and a company might be known for making good tools, or for good customer support or calibration services; but even so, every single tool should be evaluated on its own merits.

Relying on brands is pretty close to relying on astrology.  After all, if millions of people believe so, it must be true.

AVGresponding:

--- Quote from: 2N3055 on November 04, 2022, 04:04:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 02:51:01 pm ---
--- Quote from: rsjsouza on November 04, 2022, 02:33:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 06:33:06 am ---This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one.
--- End quote ---

"Reductionist" by considering the vast majority of the world's population that does not have the buying power of upper North America or Western Europe? Ok, then.  :palm:
--- End quote ---

What? Er, no. Reductionist in that the argument is presented as a zero-sum game. It isn't.



--- Quote from: rsjsouza on November 04, 2022, 02:33:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 06:33:06 am ---Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.
--- End quote ---
Following the elephant in the room logic: In the internet era, this is an outdated view. The idea that students are plowing through long documentation to better understand their equipment is unreal in the age of Google and fora like this one. Sure, they may get to the manual later in the game where they got familiar with it, but the decision to give their money away is minimally influenced by documentation. Also, purchasing decisions have many more considerations than familiarity with the equipment, especially for the hobbyist market where cost and bang per buck is much more valuable (Rigol's success is almost 100% credited to that). A similar thing for the professional market.

I have been seeing this behavioral tectonic shift for the past 30+ years, so it is not just my opinion.
--- End quote ---

And yet, it is just your opinion, your "evidence" is anecdotal, at best. You are ascribing motivations to other people, presumably based on your own. My motivations when choosing equipment are definitely not those. And to pretend that the Keysight prize giveaway to students is anything other than marketing is pure disingenuousness or perhaps naivete.

If you're choosing something without looking at the documentation first, you're an idiot. How could you possibly know whether something meets your needs without first reading the specs at the very least?

--- End quote ---


You are typical of one of those people I said that are exception to the rule, you have such attitude because you have such purchasing power that allows you to be elitist. Simple as that.  Good for you. For most people that isn't so. Does that mean you think they are stupid because of that? I hope not.

You should do more facts and less insults..

Documentation for retail customer is different. Support structure is different. Repair structure is different.
Because customer expectations are different, skillset is different, purchasing patterns are different.

And all those services are available from all manufacturers not only Keysight. And legendary documentation of HP is no more. Service manuals are joke, disassembly,no schematic, part numbers list: knobs, buttons, mainboard assembly, screen. Look at Siglent Service manuals, they are no worse than Keysight.
User manuals? Keysight user manual for 3000T is taksative enumeration of menus. There are no tutorials, in depth explanations... I actually had to figure details out from SCPI manual, there was more details...Actually Tektronix still has some old documents and provide a little more of in depth knowledge.

There is no added value in hobby market segment from A brands, because they don't want to spend money on something that does not have return.
They rely on snobbery and naivety of fanboys that are making it a religion... As I said, everybody makes their choices, but facts are facts. Writing is on the wall.

--- End quote ---

You know less than nothing about me, and I find your presumptions offensive. I operate on a budget so limited you'd think I lived in somewhere other than in a G7 country. I rarely have to deal with customer support because almost every item of TE I own is second-hand. The arguments that some people here are making that it's too hard and separate from the main business model to support hobbyists in any way is complete bollocks. TTi are a far smaller company than Keysight, but if you contact them asking if they have a pdf of a manual for a piece of TE that was obsolete 20 years ago, a friendly and polite tech will find one and email it to you. Keysight management have just signed up to the modern bean-counting max-profit min-investment short-term greed model. You do yourself no favours by defending it, just makes you look like a brain dead fanboy, which I'm sure you actually are not.

Saying the hobby market has no returns is dumb, short-sighted nonsense, and here's why:  https://www.quora.com/How-did-Bill-Hewlett-and-David-Packard-influence-Steve-Jobs

nctnico:

--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on November 04, 2022, 08:07:36 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 04, 2022, 04:25:05 pm ---Sorry but you are totally off the mark here. It sounds more like you are trying to persuade yourself A brands are not worth the extra money rather than making actual sense.
--- End quote ---
I find the entire idea of "brand" and even more so "brand class" of having any kind of reliable correlation with device quality, utility, or price-to-performance ratio, to be utterly wonky.

--- End quote ---
Actually that depends on how much a brand is valued by the manufacturer. On high value brands you'll find that the customer service is excellent and quality control is very strict. And if there is a problem, it will be rectified without charging extra and an apology on top. Buy some quality gear and you'll find out that there certainly is a strong correlation between quality and brand class.

2N3055:

--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 08:08:04 pm ---
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on November 04, 2022, 04:04:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 02:51:01 pm ---
--- Quote from: rsjsouza on November 04, 2022, 02:33:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 06:33:06 am ---This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one.
--- End quote ---

"Reductionist" by considering the vast majority of the world's population that does not have the buying power of upper North America or Western Europe? Ok, then.  :palm:
--- End quote ---

What? Er, no. Reductionist in that the argument is presented as a zero-sum game. It isn't.



--- Quote from: rsjsouza on November 04, 2022, 02:33:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 06:33:06 am ---Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.
--- End quote ---
Following the elephant in the room logic: In the internet era, this is an outdated view. The idea that students are plowing through long documentation to better understand their equipment is unreal in the age of Google and fora like this one. Sure, they may get to the manual later in the game where they got familiar with it, but the decision to give their money away is minimally influenced by documentation. Also, purchasing decisions have many more considerations than familiarity with the equipment, especially for the hobbyist market where cost and bang per buck is much more valuable (Rigol's success is almost 100% credited to that). A similar thing for the professional market.

I have been seeing this behavioral tectonic shift for the past 30+ years, so it is not just my opinion.
--- End quote ---

And yet, it is just your opinion, your "evidence" is anecdotal, at best. You are ascribing motivations to other people, presumably based on your own. My motivations when choosing equipment are definitely not those. And to pretend that the Keysight prize giveaway to students is anything other than marketing is pure disingenuousness or perhaps naivete.

If you're choosing something without looking at the documentation first, you're an idiot. How could you possibly know whether something meets your needs without first reading the specs at the very least?

--- End quote ---


You are typical of one of those people I said that are exception to the rule, you have such attitude because you have such purchasing power that allows you to be elitist. Simple as that.  Good for you. For most people that isn't so. Does that mean you think they are stupid because of that? I hope not.

You should do more facts and less insults..

Documentation for retail customer is different. Support structure is different. Repair structure is different.
Because customer expectations are different, skillset is different, purchasing patterns are different.

And all those services are available from all manufacturers not only Keysight. And legendary documentation of HP is no more. Service manuals are joke, disassembly,no schematic, part numbers list: knobs, buttons, mainboard assembly, screen. Look at Siglent Service manuals, they are no worse than Keysight.
User manuals? Keysight user manual for 3000T is taksative enumeration of menus. There are no tutorials, in depth explanations... I actually had to figure details out from SCPI manual, there was more details...Actually Tektronix still has some old documents and provide a little more of in depth knowledge.

There is no added value in hobby market segment from A brands, because they don't want to spend money on something that does not have return.
They rely on snobbery and naivety of fanboys that are making it a religion... As I said, everybody makes their choices, but facts are facts. Writing is on the wall.

--- End quote ---

You know less than nothing about me, and I find your presumptions offensive. I operate on a budget so limited you'd think I lived in somewhere other than in a G7 country. I rarely have to deal with customer support because almost every item of TE I own is second-hand. The arguments that some people here are making that it's too hard and separate from the main business model to support hobbyists in any way is complete bollocks. TTi are a far smaller company than Keysight, but if you contact them asking if they have a pdf of a manual for a piece of TE that was obsolete 20 years ago, a friendly and polite tech will find one and email it to you. Keysight management have just signed up to the modern bean-counting max-profit min-investment short-term greed model. You do yourself no favours by defending it, just makes you look like a brain dead fanboy, which I'm sure you actually are not.

Saying the hobby market has no returns is dumb, short-sighted nonsense, and here's why:  https://www.quora.com/How-did-Bill-Hewlett-and-David-Packard-influence-Steve-Jobs

--- End quote ---

I am not defending it, why do you say that! What is wrong with you ??
I am trying to explain what the facts are.

And it is not my opinion that hobby market is bad. Again why do you say that? Did you confuse me with somebody?
I am explaining Keysight deeply believe that and that that is their company policy. As in, it is in their written company policy as published on their web site. They don't care for that market segment and their strategy is big clients, solutions, software and option renting etc...
They are currently undergoing same corporate "transformation" that was done in IBM. Where company that practically invented PC stops making computers. They went into cloud, software services etc... And they didn't loose anything. What they lost in PC revenue they made up in other products.

That How-did-Bill-Hewlett-and-David-Packard-influence-Steve-Jobs link is meant to prove what? I honestly didn't understand what you mean by it.

nctnico:
What you keep missing is that Keysight has a large distribution network with dealers that will sell to individuals. It is exactly the same as Ford doing advertising for their cars. They don't expect you to buy from them directly but from one of their many dealers which in turn will provide service for the product.

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