Products > Test Equipment
Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
BillyO:
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 04, 2022, 08:18:15 pm ---Actually that depends on how much a brand is valued by the manufacturer.
--- End quote ---
Apparently not much in the the case of Keysight, or is that Agilent, oh wait HP? Compaq? WTF?
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 04, 2022, 08:18:15 pm --- On high value brands you'll find that the customer service is excellent..
--- End quote ---
Did you read about my support experiences form Siglent and Korad? I have had experience with HP support (now Keysight). It sucked even though we were paying a support contract worth millions per year (Province of Ontario government). Have things changed? Well the branding has changed multiple times.
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 04, 2022, 08:18:15 pm --- And if there is a problem, it will be rectified without charging extra and an apology on top. Buy some quality gear and you'll find out that there certainly is a strong correlation between quality and brand class.
--- End quote ---
Nice poetry, but his is not my experience. The only large tech company I can recall in my long and now long gone career that provided decent support was DEC. They were a truly a "no ifs ands or buts" company.
I never had any issues with Tektronix equipment so I don't really know what their support is like. I still have a 475 scope that still works perfectly. It was the scope I first used when I transitioned from being and audio tech to being a digital tech. I remember my boss showing me to my work bench on my fist day in that job. He showed me the Fluke meter, the Data Precision frequency counter and the WaveTech FG, then when he got to the scope he said soemthing like "Look after this, it cost more than you'll make this year." :palm:
Anyway, I'm rambling again. Time to call it quits.
AVGresponding:
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on November 04, 2022, 08:27:46 pm ---I am not defending it, why do you say that! What is wrong with you ??
I am trying to explain what the facts are.
And it is not my opinion that hobby market is bad. Again why do you say that? Did you confuse me with somebody?
I am explaining Keysight deeply believe that and that that is their company policy. As in, it is in their written company policy as published on their web site. They don't care for that market segment and their strategy is big clients, solutions, software and option renting etc...
They are currently undergoing same corporate "transformation" that was done in IBM. Where company that practically invented PC stops making computers. They went into cloud, software services etc... And they didn't loose anything. What they lost in PC revenue they made up in other products.
That How-did-Bill-Hewlett-and-David-Packard-influence-Steve-Jobs link is meant to prove what? I honestly didn't understand what you mean by it.
--- End quote ---
You are defending it, by constantly claiming that the hobby market holds no value. The link to the article shows, if you bothered to read it, that Steve Jobs, as a hobbyist, asked for, and got, help from HP. He later went on to co-found one of the largest companies in the world. I would expect Apple use quite a few units of HPAK TE in their various test, development, and manufacturing facilities around the world. If they had ignored him or told him "sorry, we aren't interested in helping hobbyists", maybe all the TE in Apple facilities would be Fluke, Keithley, Tektronix, R&S etc instead.
Obviously this is pure speculation, but it's logical speculation. If someone treats you badly, and you are later in a position to choose to send business their way or not, most people will choose not.
2N3055:
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 05, 2022, 09:08:20 am ---
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on November 04, 2022, 08:27:46 pm ---I am not defending it, why do you say that! What is wrong with you ??
I am trying to explain what the facts are.
And it is not my opinion that hobby market is bad. Again why do you say that? Did you confuse me with somebody?
I am explaining Keysight deeply believe that and that that is their company policy. As in, it is in their written company policy as published on their web site. They don't care for that market segment and their strategy is big clients, solutions, software and option renting etc...
They are currently undergoing same corporate "transformation" that was done in IBM. Where company that practically invented PC stops making computers. They went into cloud, software services etc... And they didn't loose anything. What they lost in PC revenue they made up in other products.
That How-did-Bill-Hewlett-and-David-Packard-influence-Steve-Jobs link is meant to prove what? I honestly didn't understand what you mean by it.
--- End quote ---
You are defending it, by constantly claiming that the hobby market holds no value. The link to the article shows, if you bothered to read it, that Steve Jobs, as a hobbyist, asked for, and got, help from HP. He later went on to co-found one of the largest companies in the world. I would expect Apple use quite a few units of HPAK TE in their various test, development, and manufacturing facilities around the world. If they had ignored him or told him "sorry, we aren't interested in helping hobbyists", maybe all the TE in Apple facilities would be Fluke, Keithley, Tektronix, R&S etc instead.
Obviously this is pure speculation, but it's logical speculation. If someone treats you badly, and you are later in a position to choose to send business their way or not, most people will choose not.
--- End quote ---
Holds no value to them by their own statements.. But why would you read anything or verify.
It is easier to just shoot the messenger and insult people when they say something you don't like.
I read that Jobs article long ago and again ask: what part of that article has any bearing to Keysight profits? It is a story of old HP that is no more, for years..
Apple in their facilities uses whatever works for them. And Keysight would give great effort to be in Apple. That is exactly my point. They would like to work only with the likes of Apple.
And they have that market by the fact that these customers demand products and services other cannot give or not in a way they can. That is why I keep repeating selling T&M equipment and services to Apple is different product than to hobby user..
In such large companies, decision maker who would choose equipment based on their hurt feelings when they were kids would not be decision maker.. Apple will have all kinds of equipment in their facilities from all brands, including Rigols and Siglents.. Hobby user decides by feelings, business user has other process to consider...
I find it insulting to be called fanboy because I write facts of life. And I am not defending Keysight. Just stating the facts.
1. Keysight redefined corporate goals and target market.
2. They have full right to do so. Private company, capitalism etc.. It is how it works..
3. Hobby users shouldn't cry how that is unfair. It is what it is. They should not buy stuff if they don't like it. IBM does not make PCs anymore. They did same thing as Keysight is doing here.
4. I said that they don't even have "hobby friendly prices" products anyways. Their cheapest products have a value of a small Fiat 500 with a Ferrari badge. Same nice little Fiat with bragging rights and fancy brand feelgood, for the price you could have bought Honda Civic Type R... Each person decides what is important. I know my choice.
5. I said that this means hobby market should switch to some other manufacturers that give a damn about their business.
Where in world do you see defending Keysight or being a fanboy. Like I said you must have confused me with someone else.
rsjsouza:
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 02:51:01 pm ---
And yet, it is just your opinion, your "evidence" is anecdotal, at best. You are ascribing motivations to other people, presumably based on your own. My motivations when choosing equipment are definitely not those. And to pretend that the Keysight prize giveaway to students is anything other than marketing is pure disingenuousness or perhaps naivete.
--- End quote ---
I am sorry but you are showing your ignorance of the real world. The companies have goals to meet and such massive campaigns are always under scrutiny for results, especially if they involve such complex and expensive logistical operations. The giveaways are becoming smaller over the years for a reason and, despite not working at Keysight, I have seen this happen over and over in large corporations in the US (the place I know and work). You want to call this anecdoctal? Sure, call it whatever you like, but it is a based anecdoctal evidence in contrast to your simple opinion taken from thin air.
--- Quote from: AVGresponding on November 04, 2022, 02:51:01 pm ---If you're choosing something without looking at the documentation first, you're an idiot. How could you possibly know whether something meets your needs without first reading the specs at the very least?
--- End quote ---
Don't act dumb. You know damn well that a spec sheet is the bare minimum when referencing to "documentation". How many come to this forum looking for quick tidbits of information that will influence their purchase decision and anything said here by a person with no ties to a manufacturer and with real world experience with the equipment will take precedence over any documentation coming from the manufacturer's website.
The beloved HP Journals of yore, an example where the manufacturer clearly created documentation that had educational value and is still carries good information to this day, has succumbed to the immense ocean of information from the internet coming from many sources and not only the manufacturer.
All in all, I am not mad at Keysight doing whatever they are doing - I just understand it was (and still is, to a certain extent) an experiment to cater to the broader market which, over the years, had brought results that made them re-tune their approach to this segment of the market. (edit) And when you are losing in features when compared to the competition on this segment, no amount of hype and documentation will make up revenue for this.
AVGresponding:
--- Quote from: 2N3055 on November 05, 2022, 11:15:19 am ---
Holds no value to them by their own statements.. But why would you read anything or verify.
It is easier to just shoot the messenger and insult people when they say something you don't like.
I read that Jobs article long ago and again ask: what part of that article has any bearing to Keysight profits? It is a story of old HP that is no more, for years..
Apple in their facilities uses whatever works for them. And Keysight would give great effort to be in Apple. That is exactly my point. They would like to work only with the likes of Apple.
And they have that market by the fact that these customers demand products and services other cannot give or not in a way they can. That is why I keep repeating selling T&M equipment and services to Apple is different product than to hobby user..
In such large companies, decision maker who would choose equipment based on their hurt feelings when they were kids would not be decision maker.. Apple will have all kinds of equipment in their facilities from all brands, including Rigols and Siglents.. Hobby user decides by feelings, business user has other process to consider...
I find it insulting to be called fanboy because I write facts of life. And I am not defending Keysight. Just stating the facts.
1. Keysight redefined corporate goals and target market.
2. They have full right to do so. Private company, capitalism etc.. It is how it works..
3. Hobby users shouldn't cry how that is unfair. It is what it is. They should not buy stuff if they don't like it. IBM does not make PCs anymore. They did same thing as Keysight is doing here.
4. I said that they don't even have "hobby friendly prices" products anyways. Their cheapest products have a value of a small Fiat 500 with a Ferrari badge. Same nice little Fiat with bragging rights and fancy brand feelgood, for the price you could have bought Honda Civic Type R... Each person decides what is important. I know my choice.
5. I said that this means hobby market should switch to some other manufacturers that give a damn about their business.
Where in world do you see defending Keysight or being a fanboy. Like I said you must have confused me with someone else.
--- End quote ---
I can't decide if you are being deliberately obtuse, or are genuinely incapable of understanding simple logic. Either way, I see no point discussing the matter further.
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