Author Topic: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist  (Read 100174 times)

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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #525 on: November 04, 2022, 08:46:59 pm »
What you keep missing is that Keysight has a large distribution network with dealers that will sell to individuals. It is exactly the same as Ford doing advertising for their cars. They don't expect you to buy from them directly but from one of their many dealers which in turn will provide service for the product.

If that was addressed to me, no, I'am not. Actually that is what I wrote before. But what you seems to miss is that many of these require you to be business to buy Keysight... Batronix started to make that clear for some time and finally stopped selling Keysight, for instance.
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Online tautech

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #526 on: November 04, 2022, 08:56:00 pm »
Sorry but you are totally off the mark here. It sounds more like you are trying to persuade yourself A brands are not worth the extra money rather than making actual sense.
I find the entire idea of "brand" and even more so "brand class" of having any kind of reliable correlation with device quality, utility, or price-to-performance ratio, to be utterly wonky.
Actually that depends on how much a brand is valued by the manufacturer. On high value brands you'll find that the customer service is excellent and quality control is very strict. And if there is a problem, it will be rectified without charging extra and an apology on top. Buy some quality gear and you'll find out that there certainly is a strong correlation between quality and brand class.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #527 on: November 04, 2022, 08:56:40 pm »
Batronix is not like some golden standard. Plenty of other shops that carry Keysight equipment.

@tautech: forgot the missing capacitors episode which Siglent didn't handle at all? Or the SDS2000 debacle which never got finished firmware because the model got replaced by a newer model. I'm still waiting for a refund on that one...

Keysight has taken care of the customers affected by nandrot by repairing / replacing products for free even when not in warranty. Everybody makes a mistake every now and then. How well that is handled, sets the A and B brands apart. I had one of the first Keysight E36313A units which could output a spike when plugged into mains. It got replaced for free (including courier pick-up and delivery).
« Last Edit: November 04, 2022, 09:03:50 pm by nctnico »
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #528 on: November 05, 2022, 12:52:34 am »
Well the Keysight Ebay store, which had used Keysight test equipment until their policy changed, is still empty -

https://www.ebay.com/str/keysight

But they now have a "Keysight Multi Vendor Outlet" Ebay store which will happily sell other vendors used, traded-in-for-new-Keysight-equipment, to you -

https://www.ebay.com/str/keysightmv

I'm wondering if the other vendors - Tektronix, R&S, Fluke, etc. will sell you Keysight equipment that was traded-in to them.

 :-DD
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Online BillyO

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #529 on: November 05, 2022, 03:46:26 am »
You know less than nothing about me, and I find your presumptions offensive. I operate on a budget so limited you'd think I lived in somewhere other than in a G7 country. I rarely have to deal with customer support because almost every item of TE I own is second-hand. The arguments that some people here are making that it's too hard and separate from the main business model to support hobbyists in any way is complete bollocks. TTi are a far smaller company than Keysight, but if you contact them asking if they have a pdf of a manual for a piece of TE that was obsolete 20 years ago, a friendly and polite tech will find one and email it to you. Keysight management have just signed up to the modern bean-counting max-profit min-investment short-term greed model. You do yourself no favours by defending it, just makes you look like a brain dead fanboy, which I'm sure you actually are not.

Saying the hobby market has no returns is dumb, short-sighted nonsense, and here's why:  https://www.quora.com/How-did-Bill-Hewlett-and-David-Packard-influence-Steve-Jobs

Well said!  Kudos.  :-+
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Online BillyO

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #530 on: November 05, 2022, 04:18:37 am »
Actually that depends on how much a brand is valued by the manufacturer.
Apparently not much in the the case of Keysight, or is that Agilent, oh wait HP?  Compaq?  WTF?

On high value brands you'll find that the customer service is excellent..
Did you read about my support experiences form Siglent and Korad?  I have had experience with HP support (now Keysight).  It sucked even though we were paying a support contract worth millions per year (Province of Ontario government).  Have things changed? Well the branding has changed multiple times.

And if there is a problem, it will be rectified without charging extra and an apology on top. Buy some quality gear and you'll find out that there certainly is a strong correlation between quality and brand class.
Nice poetry, but his is not my experience.  The only large tech company I can recall in my long and now long gone career that provided decent support was DEC.  They were a truly a "no ifs ands or buts" company.

I never had any issues with Tektronix equipment so I don't really know what their support is like.  I still have a 475 scope that still works perfectly.  It was the scope I first used when I transitioned from being and audio tech to being a digital tech.  I remember my boss showing me to my work bench on my fist day in that job.  He showed me the Fluke meter, the Data Precision frequency counter and the WaveTech FG, then when he got to the scope he said soemthing like "Look after this, it cost more than you'll make this year."  :palm:

Anyway, I'm rambling again.  Time to call it quits.
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #531 on: November 05, 2022, 09:08:20 am »
I am not defending it, why do you say that! What is wrong with you ??
I am trying to explain what the facts are.

And it is not my opinion that hobby market is bad. Again why do you say that? Did you confuse me with somebody?
I am explaining Keysight deeply believe that and that that is their company policy. As in, it is in their written company policy as published on their web site. They don't care for that market segment and their strategy is big clients, solutions, software and option renting etc...
They are currently undergoing same corporate "transformation" that was done in IBM. Where company that practically invented PC stops making computers. They went into cloud, software services etc... And they didn't loose anything. What they lost in PC revenue they made up in other products.

That How-did-Bill-Hewlett-and-David-Packard-influence-Steve-Jobs link is meant to prove what? I honestly didn't understand what you mean by it.

You are defending it, by constantly claiming that the hobby market holds no value. The link to the article shows, if you bothered to read it, that Steve Jobs, as a hobbyist, asked for, and got, help from HP. He later went on to co-found one of the largest companies in the world. I would expect Apple use quite a few units of HPAK TE in their various test, development, and manufacturing facilities around the world. If they had ignored him or told him "sorry, we aren't interested in helping hobbyists", maybe all the TE in Apple facilities would be Fluke, Keithley, Tektronix, R&S etc instead.

Obviously this is pure speculation, but it's logical speculation. If someone treats you badly, and you are later in a position to choose to send business their way or not, most people will choose not.
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #532 on: November 05, 2022, 11:15:19 am »
I am not defending it, why do you say that! What is wrong with you ??
I am trying to explain what the facts are.

And it is not my opinion that hobby market is bad. Again why do you say that? Did you confuse me with somebody?
I am explaining Keysight deeply believe that and that that is their company policy. As in, it is in their written company policy as published on their web site. They don't care for that market segment and their strategy is big clients, solutions, software and option renting etc...
They are currently undergoing same corporate "transformation" that was done in IBM. Where company that practically invented PC stops making computers. They went into cloud, software services etc... And they didn't loose anything. What they lost in PC revenue they made up in other products.

That How-did-Bill-Hewlett-and-David-Packard-influence-Steve-Jobs link is meant to prove what? I honestly didn't understand what you mean by it.

You are defending it, by constantly claiming that the hobby market holds no value. The link to the article shows, if you bothered to read it, that Steve Jobs, as a hobbyist, asked for, and got, help from HP. He later went on to co-found one of the largest companies in the world. I would expect Apple use quite a few units of HPAK TE in their various test, development, and manufacturing facilities around the world. If they had ignored him or told him "sorry, we aren't interested in helping hobbyists", maybe all the TE in Apple facilities would be Fluke, Keithley, Tektronix, R&S etc instead.

Obviously this is pure speculation, but it's logical speculation. If someone treats you badly, and you are later in a position to choose to send business their way or not, most people will choose not.


Holds no value to them by their own statements.. But why would you read anything or verify.
It is easier to just shoot the messenger and insult people when they say something you don't like.

I read that Jobs article long ago and again ask: what part of that article has any bearing to Keysight profits? It is a story of old HP that is no more, for years..
Apple in their facilities uses whatever works for them. And Keysight  would give great effort to be in Apple. That is exactly my point. They would like to work only with the likes of Apple.
And they have that market by the fact that these customers demand products and services other cannot give or not in a way they can. That is why I keep repeating selling T&M equipment and services to  Apple is different product than to hobby user..
In such large companies, decision maker who would choose equipment based on their hurt feelings when they were kids would not be decision maker.. Apple will have all kinds of equipment in their facilities from all brands, including Rigols and Siglents.. Hobby user decides by feelings, business user has other process to consider...


I find it insulting to be called fanboy because I write facts of life. And I am not defending Keysight. Just stating the facts.

1. Keysight redefined corporate goals and target market.
2. They have full right to do so. Private company, capitalism etc.. It is how it works..
3. Hobby users shouldn't cry how that is unfair. It is what it is. They should not buy stuff if they don't like it. IBM does not make PCs anymore. They did same thing as Keysight is doing here.
4. I said that they don't even have "hobby friendly prices" products anyways. Their cheapest products have a value of a small Fiat 500 with a Ferrari badge. Same nice little Fiat with bragging rights and fancy brand feelgood, for the price you could have bought Honda Civic Type R... Each person decides what is important. I know my choice.
5. I said that this means hobby market should switch to some other manufacturers that give a damn about their business.

Where in world do you see defending Keysight or being a fanboy. Like I said you must have confused me with someone else.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2022, 12:42:00 pm by 2N3055 »
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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #533 on: November 05, 2022, 12:20:55 pm »

And yet, it is just your opinion, your "evidence" is anecdotal, at best. You are ascribing motivations to other people, presumably based on your own. My motivations when choosing equipment are definitely not those. And to pretend that the Keysight prize giveaway to students is anything other than marketing is pure disingenuousness or perhaps naivete.
I am sorry but you are showing your ignorance of the real world. The companies have goals to meet and such massive campaigns are always under scrutiny for results, especially if they involve such complex and expensive logistical operations. The giveaways are becoming smaller over the years for a reason and, despite not working at Keysight, I have seen this happen over and over in large corporations in the US (the place I know and work). You want to call this anecdoctal? Sure, call it whatever you like, but it is a based anecdoctal evidence in contrast to your simple opinion taken from thin air. 

If you're choosing something without looking at the documentation first, you're an idiot. How could you possibly know whether something meets your needs without first reading the specs at the very least?
Don't act dumb. You know damn well that a spec sheet is the bare minimum when referencing to "documentation". How many come to this forum looking for quick tidbits of information that will influence their purchase decision and anything said here by a person with no ties to a manufacturer and with real world experience with the equipment will take precedence over any documentation coming from the manufacturer's website.

The beloved HP Journals of yore, an example where the manufacturer clearly created documentation that had educational value and is still carries good information to this day, has succumbed to the immense ocean of information from the internet coming from many sources and not only the manufacturer.

All in all, I am not mad at Keysight doing whatever they are doing - I just understand it was (and still is, to a certain extent) an experiment to cater to the broader market which, over the years, had brought results that made them re-tune their approach to this segment of the market. (edit) And when you are losing in features when compared to the competition on this segment, no amount of hype and documentation will make up revenue for this.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2022, 12:44:38 pm by rsjsouza »
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #534 on: November 05, 2022, 04:33:05 pm »


Holds no value to them by their own statements.. But why would you read anything or verify.
It is easier to just shoot the messenger and insult people when they say something you don't like.

I read that Jobs article long ago and again ask: what part of that article has any bearing to Keysight profits? It is a story of old HP that is no more, for years..
Apple in their facilities uses whatever works for them. And Keysight  would give great effort to be in Apple. That is exactly my point. They would like to work only with the likes of Apple.
And they have that market by the fact that these customers demand products and services other cannot give or not in a way they can. That is why I keep repeating selling T&M equipment and services to  Apple is different product than to hobby user..
In such large companies, decision maker who would choose equipment based on their hurt feelings when they were kids would not be decision maker.. Apple will have all kinds of equipment in their facilities from all brands, including Rigols and Siglents.. Hobby user decides by feelings, business user has other process to consider...


I find it insulting to be called fanboy because I write facts of life. And I am not defending Keysight. Just stating the facts.

1. Keysight redefined corporate goals and target market.
2. They have full right to do so. Private company, capitalism etc.. It is how it works..
3. Hobby users shouldn't cry how that is unfair. It is what it is. They should not buy stuff if they don't like it. IBM does not make PCs anymore. They did same thing as Keysight is doing here.
4. I said that they don't even have "hobby friendly prices" products anyways. Their cheapest products have a value of a small Fiat 500 with a Ferrari badge. Same nice little Fiat with bragging rights and fancy brand feelgood, for the price you could have bought Honda Civic Type R... Each person decides what is important. I know my choice.
5. I said that this means hobby market should switch to some other manufacturers that give a damn about their business.

Where in world do you see defending Keysight or being a fanboy. Like I said you must have confused me with someone else.

I can't decide if you are being deliberately obtuse, or are genuinely incapable of understanding simple logic. Either way, I see no point discussing the matter further.
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #535 on: November 05, 2022, 05:51:40 pm »

I can't decide if you are being deliberately obtuse, or are genuinely incapable of understanding simple logic. Either way, I see no point discussing the matter further.

What logic?
You seems to have chose me at random to blame me for Keysight policy.
If  anybody here is obtuse it's not me...

Do I like what Keysight is doing? NO.
Do I care ? NO.
Is it short sighted by them as you claim? People in charge of gazilion bazilon USD company don't think so. 
Me?  I don't care, I don't need Keysight. I switched to other sources..
Your point with AimTTI is exactly proving me right. Fact that they are 1000 times smaller and that they choose to serve small customers makes them capable of doing so. Keysight decided to shut down that department. They are going for whatever MBA assholes in charge think are more lucrative markets. Is it a mistake? We'll see.. In meantime, what you and I think is irrelevant, facts are what they are. Your bitchin that "they are making a big mistake" won't make to their ears and even if it did they would laugh at you.. What do you know...

I fail to see any logic in your postings and attacks...

And what is with font colors? To make it deliberately hard to read?
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #536 on: November 05, 2022, 09:06:11 pm »
Could getting harder...  ;)
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #537 on: November 05, 2022, 09:12:27 pm »
Could getting harder...  ;)
:-DD
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #538 on: November 06, 2022, 09:22:47 am »
And what is with font colors? To make it deliberately hard to read?

I started doing it a number of years ago, to help some dyslexic members of a forum I was hosting read things more easily. It became a habit.
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Offline tv84

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #539 on: November 06, 2022, 10:22:58 am »
Gentlemen, don't consume yourselves with this theme anymore. I've said this over and over, it's a KS decision.

Once again:

- They are not cutting ties with the hobbyist audience! They only make you go through a retailer in order to get support. It's that simple.

- Many of you (mostly US) were accustomed to contact them directly for support. Well, except in some outlier cases, those times are gone. Period.

(as we say in a portuguese rhyme: "relax, it will fit")
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #540 on: November 06, 2022, 11:30:05 am »
(as we say in a portuguese rhyme: "relax, it will fit")

OUCH!!
 :-DD
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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #541 on: November 06, 2022, 02:19:15 pm »
Gentlemen, don't consume yourselves with this theme anymore. I've said this over and over, it's a KS decision.

Once again:

- They are not cutting ties with the hobbyist audience! They only make you go through a retailer in order to get support. It's that simple.

- Many of you (mostly US) were accustomed to contact them directly for support. Well, except in some outlier cases, those times are gone. Period.

(as we say in a portuguese rhyme: "relax, it will fit")

Muito bom...
 

Offline boggis the cat

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #542 on: November 07, 2022, 05:22:14 am »
@tautech: forgot the missing capacitors episode which Siglent didn't handle at all?
Pretty sure Tautech got the capacitors from Siglent to do service on all of the sold units (this was the 1202X-E).

I couldn't be bothered sending mine up to him, so he mailed me the capacitors.  I haven't installed them yet, because it has minimal effect and I'm lazy / indifferent.

Possibly Keysight would do a similar local agent service for such, but typically they want stuff sent to 'Murica (and through customs hell, should you not happen to live there).

Ideally no mistakes (or, I am assuming, cost-cutting that the engineering department didn't approve of) would ever be made, but often the first batch of any product can be flakey.  Paying more to buy from local agents may seem like a waste of money, but if anything goes wrong or you need support...
 
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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #543 on: November 07, 2022, 06:22:41 am »
@tautech: forgot the missing capacitors episode which Siglent didn't handle at all?
Pretty sure Tautech got the capacitors from Siglent to do service on all of the sold units (this was the 1202X-E).
I did and still have a few left. They are quite special for a MLCC being 500V rated.

I sent you the setup info about adjusting the step response didn't I, yell if you need another copy.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #544 on: November 07, 2022, 10:46:44 am »
@tautech: forgot the missing capacitors episode which Siglent didn't handle at all?
Pretty sure Tautech got the capacitors from Siglent to do service on all of the sold units (this was the 1202X-E).

I couldn't be bothered sending mine up to him, so he mailed me the capacitors.  I haven't installed them yet, because it has minimal effect and I'm lazy / indifferent.
Tautech is a positive exception; he took this action by himself which was in no way controlled or enforced by Siglent. AFAIK he didn't even got compensated for the time he spend on this by Siglent. In the US Siglent told their customers to bugger off.

As a side note though: I wouldn't want my test equipment repaired by a 'roque agent' who isn't part of an approved service & repair center for test equipment.

Over the years I had some Keysight equipment with a problem. As I wrote before: that equipment was picked up & delivered without any hassle or paperwork from my side.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2022, 10:52:19 am by nctnico »
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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #545 on: November 07, 2022, 07:25:35 pm »
@tautech: forgot the missing capacitors episode which Siglent didn't handle at all?
Pretty sure Tautech got the capacitors from Siglent to do service on all of the sold units (this was the 1202X-E).

I couldn't be bothered sending mine up to him, so he mailed me the capacitors.  I haven't installed them yet, because it has minimal effect and I'm lazy / indifferent.
Tautech is a positive exception; he took this action by himself which was in no way controlled or enforced by Siglent.
Really, the rework and adjustment instructions written by Siglent suggest otherwise.
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #546 on: November 07, 2022, 07:35:26 pm »
When someone is convinced that brand A is better than brand B, no logical argument will change their mind, because brands do not rely on logic, they rely on human emotional responses.  Only a personal event, changing their emotional responses, will affect their conviction.

Now, before anyone points out me using Tux (and what it might imply), and pot-kettle-black, I'll say that Tux is just my mascot, not my idol.

That said, in my earlier years, I did believe in brands, up until I myself ran a business, starting in a business incubator, talked to experiences entrepreneurs and business angels, and learned how and why brands are created and maintained.  I am not denigrating anyone, just stating a fact about business brands; a fact that a large number of businesses rely on.  In support of my claims here, just look at brand monetary valuation, and at what kind of prices brands are sold, bought, and licensed.
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #547 on: November 08, 2022, 02:00:49 am »
When someone is convinced that brand A is better than brand B, no logical argument will change their mind, because brands do not rely on logic, they rely on human emotional responses.  Only a personal event, changing their emotional responses, will affect their conviction.
I guess this is partly aimed at me. Let me tell you: I have spend (directly and indirectly) about 4k euro to make Siglent equipment work in a business environment and failed. That is a hard learned lesson. Not some hand waving about brand value creation or fanboyism (I don't care about that). And if you pay close attention you'll notice I have and have owned equipment from many different brands -not afraid to stray from the beaten paths-. From that I have concluded that the A brands are a better business investment in the long run. That is 100% based on logic.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2022, 02:06:22 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #548 on: November 08, 2022, 04:17:03 am »
When someone is convinced that brand A is better than brand B, no logical argument will change their mind, because brands do not rely on logic, they rely on human emotional responses.  Only a personal event, changing their emotional responses, will affect their conviction.
I guess this is partly aimed at me. Let me tell you: I have spend (directly and indirectly) about 4k euro to make Siglent equipment work in a business environment and failed. That is a hard learned lesson.
And that is why you feel so emotionally about this.

fanboyism
No, I was not talking about that; "fanboyism" is a completely separate phenomenon (and one based more on dopamine kicks than emotional responses).

I mean that you feel strongly about brands, because you have hard earned lessons about them; but you do not logically see how small your own experimental sample is, nor do you acknowledge any selection biases inherent in that sample.

You are not behaving logically here.  Your admission that your opinion is based on your experiences, combined with your conviction, is proof of that.  Experience ≝ anecdotal evidence ≠ logic.

Nevertheless, I am NOT calling you a fanboy, only of being very normal human.  Just because you're technically very adept, does not make you immune.  Brands work exactly like this.  They also rely on the very human expectation that "if X produced A, and A is good, and X now produces B, B must be good too", because it typically applies in nature: an edible root or plant last year, is almost certainly edible this year too.  These principles are actively exploited in business and enterprise, and are the basic reason brands exist in the first place.  There is no shame in being affected by brands, but there is shame in declaring that brands themselves quarantee value and/or quality.  Because they demonstrably do not.  Furthermore, suggesting that there is an actual hierarchy of brands that corresponds to the value or quality of products belonging to that brand, is just idiotic, because every single brand has an occasional goof or Monday product, proving the suggestion invalid.
 
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #549 on: November 08, 2022, 11:14:35 am »
I'm wondering if the other vendors - Tektronix, R&S, Fluke, etc. will sell you Keysight equipment that was traded-in to them.

 :-DD

(laughs).  Can’t speak for the other guys, but R&S definitely does not resell (or even give away) competitor trade-ins :)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2022, 11:26:33 am by pdenisowski »
Test and Measurement Fundamentals video series on the Rohde & Schwarz YouTube channel:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8
 
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