Author Topic: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist  (Read 100171 times)

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #550 on: November 08, 2022, 12:28:42 pm »
When someone is convinced that brand A is better than brand B, no logical argument will change their mind, because brands do not rely on logic, they rely on human emotional responses.  Only a personal event, changing their emotional responses, will affect their conviction.
I guess this is partly aimed at me. Let me tell you: I have spend (directly and indirectly) about 4k euro to make Siglent equipment work in a business environment and failed. That is a hard learned lesson.
And that is why you feel so emotionally about this.

fanboyism
No, I was not talking about that; "fanboyism" is a completely separate phenomenon (and one based more on dopamine kicks than emotional responses).

I mean that you feel strongly about brands, because you have hard earned lessons about them; but you do not logically see how small your own experimental sample is, nor do you acknowledge any selection biases inherent in that sample.

You are not behaving logically here.  Your admission that your opinion is based on your experiences, combined with your conviction, is proof of that.  Experience ≝ anecdotal evidence ≠ logic.
And yet you are still wrong because you are trying to make an analysis based on incomplete data. If you actually knew which equipment I have and have owned precisely (which you can find on this forum) and how I select it (which you can also find on this forum) you'll see that my equipment selection is based on buying things that make  sense financially. Maybe read some of my older posts and you'll see exactly how my way of thinking about buying test equipment has been shaped over the years. It is all here on this forum. IOW: do your homework first before jumping to any conclusions. If I was acting emotionally, I would not have re-tried to use Siglent gear again but based on the information on this forum, it looked strongly like a particular piece of gear would fit the bill so I recommended buying it to a customer. That turned out to be a mistake due to a deeply hidden flaw though.

To add another datapoint: I have a close family member that utterly hates Ford cars. So from the day I could understand spoken word, I was told Ford is crap. Fast forward to little less than 10 years ago: I needed another car so I sat down behind the computer with a piece of paper and a used car website to see what kind of models would fit the requirements and budget. I found a couple of car models including one from Ford. I researched all of them (looking at common problems reported by people that have driven their car for a long time) and it turned out the Ford model was the best buy so I got the Ford. Now tell me that this process isn't based on logic.

I follow the same exact same principle when selecting test equipment. From going through that selection process (which can be lengthy every now and then) for various bits of gear I've learned that buying an A-brand gives the best chance of getting a piece of equipment that just works (just like there are car brands that typically produce cars with less than average problems). The alternative is to buy a cheaper instrument which needs to be functionally verified thouroughly (which can take more time & effort than is financially sensible) and/or needs modifications (which again involves a time / money tradeoff).

Anyway, this is going wildly off-topic in this thread.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2022, 02:13:37 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline adam4521

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #551 on: November 08, 2022, 05:21:18 pm »
Quote
(laughs).  Can’t speak for the other guys, but R&S definitely does not resell (or even give away) competitor trade-ins :)

If it’s electrically safe to use, would it be ethical these days to throw working equipment in the dump, just to remove it from the used equipment ‘pool’? Does R&S not subscribe to the circular economy?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #552 on: November 08, 2022, 05:24:14 pm »
Most likely the equipment is handed over to an equipment dealer to figure out what is worth reselling and what can be scrapped.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #553 on: November 08, 2022, 06:18:46 pm »
Quote
(laughs).  Can’t speak for the other guys, but R&S definitely does not resell (or even give away) competitor trade-ins :)

If it’s electrically safe to use, would it be ethical these days to throw working equipment in the dump, just to remove it from the used equipment ‘pool’? Does R&S not subscribe to the circular economy?

Most likely the equipment is handed over to an equipment dealer to figure out what is worth reselling and what can be scrapped.

It's standard industry practice not to resell competitor trade-ins:  if you know of any T&M manufacturers who do resell competitor trade-ins, I would be very interested :)

That said, we are, of course, very happy to sell our own used (but fully refurbished, calibrated, etc.) instruments.

And being an environmentally-conscious company, rest assured that we don't simply throw trade-ins into the dumpster (!) :)
Test and Measurement Fundamentals video series on the Rohde & Schwarz YouTube channel:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8
 

Offline alm

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #554 on: November 08, 2022, 07:20:26 pm »
It's standard industry practice not to resell competitor trade-ins:  if you know of any T&M manufacturers who do resell competitor trade-ins, I would be very interested :)

I can't be 100% sure they sell trade-ins, but this eBay store that claims to be associated with Teledyne-Lecroy sells and has recently sold equipment from at least Rigol, Tektronix and R&S. I can't really think of another reason why they would sell competitor equipment.

Keysight has a "multi-vendor outlet" on eBay which has in its description:
Quote
The Keysight Multi-Vendor Outlet provides access to used equipment from multiple manufacturers that our customers traded in against Keysight solutions.

[...]

Why does Keysight offer equipment from other manufacturers?
We manage the industry's broadest trade-in program and therefore receive thousands of instruments that are traded towards Keysight solutions. All incoming used equipment undergoes performance checks and, if in good condition, is remarketed on multiple channels such as this Multi-Vendor Outlet on eBay. A dedicated remarketing team enables us to provide you with quality offers of used equipment from Keysight (formerly Agilent) and other manufacturers.

If this is anything to go by, it almost seems industry standard to resell competitor trade-ins ;)
 
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #555 on: November 09, 2022, 11:14:56 am »
If this is anything to go by, it almost seems industry standard to resell competitor trade-ins ;)

Thanks!  It seems the industry standard has changed since I started in the industry ...  :-DD
Test and Measurement Fundamentals video series on the Rohde & Schwarz YouTube channel:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #556 on: November 09, 2022, 11:58:40 am »
And being an environmentally-conscious company, rest assured that we don't simply throw trade-ins into the dumpster (!) :)
I am very curious: what does happen with equipment that might still be in useful condition? Do you donate competitors' equipment to universities and schools or offload this to a professional recycler as scrap? If the latter, do you track the environmentally-conscious procedures and  destination of their recycling process?
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Offline coppice

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #557 on: November 09, 2022, 02:30:01 pm »
And being an environmentally-conscious company, rest assured that we don't simply throw trade-ins into the dumpster (!) :)
Of course not. You might get caught. These things are done in a covert manner.  :)
 
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #558 on: November 09, 2022, 06:12:45 pm »
Paraphrasing Arnie, "Typically the instrument being traded in is terminated."  I've never had the heart to take advantage of those offers.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #559 on: December 12, 2022, 05:40:46 pm »
This is not a "balanced" view, but a reductionist, short-termist one. Bill and Ted Dave built the business on the opposite, long-termist approach, of engineering as good a product as possible, and supporting it as well as possible with good documentation and parts/service availability.
Supporting the hobbyist with documents (which you have to produce for your corporate customers anyway), parts (which you have to have available to service your corporate customers anyway), and services like repair and calibration (which you need to provide for your corporate customers anyway) leads to good PR and customer loyalty down the line, from student to PO.

The point here is that Keysight are trying to both have their cake and eat it; they are still promoting their products through youtube content makers, not to mention the big glossy ad in the header here, but are not interested in supporting the custom that comes their way due to it.

And, at least when it comes to handheld DMMs, both joesmith and my own experience indicate that this so called A brand is inferior to other A brands, and inferior to some B and C brands.


Finally someone touch it. It was exactly, almost word by word, what I was thinking on writing.

The work is made already for the corporate customers because it is an "added value" and something that corporate expect when they spend their budgets into any equipment.

It is easy to also provide it to non corporate customers specially when you still push your equipments in websites as this and selected YouTube celebrities/makers.

You are both quite wrong. Selling and supporting retail customers is so different you need to have what amounts to paralel  company to do so. Everything is different, including product. You cannot do it "on the side". It is huge cost if you don't plan to make a good business of it. And they don't.

Pushing to private customers is not happening. What we see are remnants of previous strategy that are not aligned yet. It's a huge multinational corporation, it has inertia. Yes you have link to Ebay store. But if you click on it there you can see "no retail customer" warning. For support, they will provide warranty but through point of sales. As far as youtube, go check. Is there any sponsored Keysight Youtube targeted to hobby users from year 2022? There is none. All the videos are old...

Are they?

https://youtu.be/wsJONukJlLI

First minutes, Keysight advertisement and probably a equipment giveaway...
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #560 on: December 12, 2022, 06:18:46 pm »

Are they?

https: //youtu.be/wsJONukJlLI

First minutes, Keysight advertisement and probably a equipment giveaway...

Yes, watch the video. There is no equipment giveaway..
Great Scott also promotes Altium Designer that is known to have millions of happy hobby customers. Not.
He is simply promoting as part of his previous deals with Keysight. This is not Keysight doing it.

That Keysight channel is more of a "indoctrination" of students than having anything to do with hobby users...
As I said, compare to what effort was 3-5 years ago and today and you see will writing on the wall.
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #561 on: December 12, 2022, 06:50:31 pm »

Are they?

https: //youtu.be/wsJONukJlLI

First minutes, Keysight advertisement and probably a equipment giveaway...

Yes, watch the video. There is no equipment giveaway..
Great Scott also promotes Altium Designer that is known to have millions of happy hobby customers. Not.
There are quite a few hobby designers using Altium. Either through cracked versions, non-profit sponsorships or using educational licenses. Altium is pushing their product quite hard at universities.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jjoonathan

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #562 on: December 12, 2022, 07:08:17 pm »
If this is anything to go by, it almost seems industry standard to resell competitor trade-ins ;)

Thanks!  It seems the industry standard has changed since I started in the industry ...  :-DD
I bought my RTO1024 from Teledyne Lecroy lol  ;D
 
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Offline Sherlock Holmes

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #563 on: December 12, 2022, 08:33:36 pm »
I bought a Keysight DSOX1204G oscilloscope for home use. I recently contacted Keysight support but they have point-blank refused to talk to me because I am not a company. This is their reply:
Quote
Dear ...,

Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use. While we thank you for your interest in our products and/or services, we are unable to provide you with technical support without a VAT ID or equivalent  proof of business license.

That's it. That's all I got. This is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Of course, they're perfectly happy to take your money and sell you one, but then apparently you're on your own.

Well, guess which company I won't be going to when I need a new bit of test gear at work. I am pretty furious right now. Fuck Keysight.

So I'm putting this here as a warning to you. Just get the Siglent, Rigol or whatever. Avoid Keysight.

That's crazy man, not a cheap scope either. I have a Siglent SDS1204X-E, also a four chan analog scope and service (when I need it) isn't subject to such draconian BS.

I'm sure the Keysight is a superior machine but haven't looked to see exactly why there's such a price diff.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 08:35:11 pm by Sherlock Holmes »
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #564 on: December 12, 2022, 08:49:19 pm »
..................
I'm sure the Keysight is a superior machine but haven't looked to see exactly why there's such a price diff.
It is nice scope in it's own right but it is not superior machine.

It's biggest strength is it has fast UI and is really responsive to user input. People that have CRT scope nostalgia like it for that. It has hardware decoding (means it is fast) but because of that you cannot enable decoding later or experiment with settings on already captured data.

There are few things Siglent can do that Keysight can't.

So it is up to person to decide...
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #565 on: December 13, 2022, 01:39:05 pm »
Paraphrasing Arnie, "Typically the instrument being traded in is terminated."  I've never had the heart to take advantage of those offers.

Big companies often have rules for how long they keep equipment, i.e. once it is written down they buy new, even if the old stuff is in tip top shape.
 

Offline Kenneth Rosenstroem

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #566 on: December 13, 2022, 02:11:48 pm »
Funny how their eBay store suddenly is sold out...

https://www.ebay.com/str/keysight

And no mention of "Only for professionals....."
 

Offline switchabl

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #567 on: December 13, 2022, 05:36:39 pm »
I believe they have moved everything to their own store: https://saving.em.keysight.com/en/used

I think it has been mentioned before that Keysight allegedly violated ITAR export restrictions in the past and entered a consent agreement last year (https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/sys_attachment.do?sysparm_referring_url=tear_off&view=true&sys_id=98ebc0e51b35b0d0c6c3866ae54bcb80), promising to review and tighten their compliance measures (and pay a fine). They may simply have decided that selling through eBay, where they may not be able to properly screen potential customers, is an unnecessary risk in that context.  :-//
 
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Online mawyatt

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #568 on: December 13, 2022, 06:16:19 pm »
That points to a very serious ITAR violation.

Keysight has some very powerful equipment, useful in many applications including beneficial for those considered as "not-friendly". Makes one wonder if this equipment ended up in the hands of those not-friendly entities ??

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Online TheSteve

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #569 on: December 13, 2022, 08:44:49 pm »
The violation allegations are easy to find via google. Seems they may have sold software they shouldn't have to PRC and Russia.

Leaving ebay was more likely related to ebay's crazy policy's.
VE7FM
 

Offline switchabl

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #570 on: December 13, 2022, 10:08:22 pm »
Leaving ebay was more likely related to ebay's crazy policy's.

Quite possible as well. Also, I think that buying directly from Keysight is preferable for many customers anyway. "We want to buy this 50k$ instrument off eBay" isn't necessarily something that will make you new friends at the purchasing department.

Though the ITAR issue is the kind of thing that does get the lawyers sent in, poking their noses everywhere, with everyone else involved trying to cover their *****. So who knows.

In any case, long story short: Keysight Used equipment is still available same as before, just not on eBay.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #571 on: December 15, 2022, 12:04:39 am »
And what is with font colors? To make it deliberately hard to read?

I started doing it a number of years ago, to help some dyslexic members of a forum I was hosting read things more easily. It became a habit.
So you make it harder for basically everyone, rather than letting the dyslexic users set their own browser preferences to what’s best for them?

It’s super annoying.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #572 on: December 16, 2022, 11:53:56 am »
And what is with font colors? To make it deliberately hard to read?

I started doing it a number of years ago, to help some dyslexic members of a forum I was hosting read things more easily. It became a habit.
So you make it harder for basically everyone, rather than letting the dyslexic users set their own browser preferences to what’s best for them?

It’s super annoying.


Be tolerant, embrace the "different"!   CMYK+

 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #573 on: February 19, 2023, 04:47:53 pm »

Are they?

https: //youtu.be/wsJONukJlLI

First minutes, Keysight advertisement and probably a equipment giveaway...

Yes, watch the video. There is no equipment giveaway..
Great Scott also promotes Altium Designer that is known to have millions of happy hobby customers. Not.
He is simply promoting as part of his previous deals with Keysight. This is not Keysight doing it.

That Keysight channel is more of a "indoctrination" of students than having anything to do with hobby users...
As I said, compare to what effort was 3-5 years ago and today and you see will writing on the wall.

Doesn't look like...
https://www.keysight.com/us/en/events/keysight-world/live-from-the-lab-greatscott.html

Directly from his new video, no reference to people needing to be a company...
 

Offline wasedadoc

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Re: Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist
« Reply #574 on: February 19, 2023, 06:00:03 pm »
https://www.keysight.com/us/en/events/keysight-world/live-from-the-lab-greatscott.html

Directly from his new video, no reference to people needing to be a company...
'Company Name' is one of the required answers on the registration form. Just sayin'.
 


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