Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

[ogden]

I wonder what Keysight's stance on Right to Repair is. A quick search didn't bing up anything useful.

It's safe to say they consider all the service information a trade secret. This started in the 1990s when HP was on the downslope. If you're lucky, you'll get a block diagram. No more. The only reason they host old service info for HP stuff is someone in the company spearheaded it. And they have progressively made it harder to find and get to. You now have to put your personal information in to download the PDFs.

Do we get Tektronix service manuals freely, if at all?

[TheSteve]

I wonder what Keysight's stance on Right to Repair is. A quick search didn't bing up anything useful.

It's safe to say they consider all the service information a trade secret. This started in the 1990s when HP was on the downslope. If you're lucky, you'll get a block diagram. No more. The only reason they host old service info for HP stuff is someone in the company spearheaded it. And they have progressively made it harder to find and get to. You now have to put your personal information in to download the PDFs.

You can enter any information you like - the country doesn't even have to match. But the fact they require anything is ridiculous.

[RF-Engineer]

I've no issues with Keysight and recently had a decent exchange with their tech support.  They also assisted me with a replacement LCD display for a 34461A DMM. 

Several years ago, I created an LLC in the State of Florida.  It has its own FEIN and is now even listed on Dun & Bradstreet through no request on my part.  In Florida, it costs about $100/year to maintain an LLC.  But that same LLC is used to get wholesale pricing from other commercial suppliers including Tessco.com.   And, that LLC gets me free chip and discrete component product samples.  Last year, I obtained several Microsemi high-power PIN diodes at no charge for what would have otherwise cost over USD $150.  For me, the LLC has been worth the little effort and cost to create and maintain. 

Paul

[0culus]

I wonder what Keysight's stance on Right to Repair is. A quick search didn't bing up anything useful.

It's safe to say they consider all the service information a trade secret. This started in the 1990s when HP was on the downslope. If you're lucky, you'll get a block diagram. No more. The only reason they host old service info for HP stuff is someone in the company spearheaded it. And they have progressively made it harder to find and get to. You now have to put your personal information in to download the PDFs.

You can enter any information you like - the country doesn't even have to match. But the fact they require anything is ridiculous.

My point exactly. They didn't used to require anything to download them. Now you have to jump through at least 2 hoops before you finally get to download the file (unless you have an account there and are logged in).

Personally, I prefer to buy original printed copies when I can, but somethings when you need something fast you just want to pull up the PDF. 

[madires]

In Florida, it costs about $100/year to maintain an LLC.

In other corners of the world it's more expensive and can also require lots of regular paperwork. And in my case I would even have to move or ask for a special permit since no businesses are allowed in the residential area I live in. For me it's simpler and cheaper to buy a new Rigol or Siglent than setting up a company to be able to get spare parts or any other support from Keysight.

[nctnico]

In Florida, it costs about $100/year to maintain an LLC.

In other corners of the world it's more expensive and can also require lots of regular paperwork. And in my case I would even have to move or ask for a special permit since no businesses are allowed in the residential area I live.

I'm quite sure you are mistaken by that! Just read the fine print and you'll see that these limits apply to businesses that require some kind of permit (environmental for example) to operate. Registering a consulting or holding company won't be a problem at all. If you look in the registry with companies in your neighbourhood, you'll probably find plenty of them.

[madires]

Sorry, it's really that way.

[nctnico]

Sorry, it's really that way.

I'm not going to take your word for it! If I pull up a random residential (suburban) area of some German city with Google maps, several companies pop up located at -what look like- regular homes. These may be consulting companies, holding companies or the actual business takes place somewhere else. Again, if you read the fine print then it is the business activities that are limited in a residential area, not having a postal address for a company.

[TaylorD93]

Have to admit in some UK Private tenancy agreements, the landlord can state in the tenancy agreement that no companies are to be registered at the property.

[themadhippy]

Private tenancy agreements,

Aint just rentals,restricted covenants  can restrict what you do on your  own private property.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Have to admit in some UK Private tenancy agreements, the landlord can state in the tenancy agreement that no companies are to be registered at the property.

It's not unusual for companies to be registered at a different address, e.g. accountants

[RF-Engineer]

Have to admit in some UK Private tenancy agreements, the landlord can state in the tenancy agreement that no companies are to be registered at the property.

One option to consider is registering the company with a nearby post box address.  Of course, that too requires a monthly box rental fee through a government postal service but is very common for small businesses in the USA. 

A secondary benefit is privacy.  Having a postal box shields against unwelcome business solicitation on the premises.

Paul

[BrokenYugo]

IDK about Germany, but in the US these cheap and convenient LLCs are often (typically?) registered to some PO box or "virtual address", usually in Delaware or a handful of other states for their advantageous laws, not the owner's residence. You of course direct all packages and forward all mail (or have it scanned) to wherever you want. There are even companies that will set everything up for you.

[AlfBaz]

hmm...
Just logged in keysigth's website and looked at my profile.

All it has is my name and email address. Company name and city which are required fields, are blank as they should be since I never provided this information.
I went to type a company name into the field and a popup said that a company name is already registered with this account and changing it would require registration for any support or purchasing, so that's odd

I only ever created an account to download manuals and data sheets but it seems what ever has recently changed has yet to propagate down to account holders

In the support section, whilst logged in, all of the support options are unlocked and I'm able to start all of the processes.

I wonder if this will stay this way or at some point require a profile update.

My guess would be, if you tried to create an account now you would most likely have to state and perhaps prove, your company name.

I do have an Australian Business Number (ABN) for sole trader, but I have never used it and due to inactivity has lapsed

[xrunner]

hmm...
Just logged in keysigth's website and looked at my profile.

All it has is my name and email address. Company name and city which are required fields, are blank as they should be since I never provided this information.
I went to type a company name into the field and a popup said that a company name is already registered with this account and changing it would require registration for any support or purchasing, so that's odd

Ha!

I've had an account for several years and I tried it too and it tells me the same thing! I guess I can buy their test equipment now ... 

[AlfBaz]

hmm...
Just logged in keysigth's website and looked at my profile.

All it has is my name and email address. Company name and city which are required fields, are blank as they should be since I never provided this information.
I went to type a company name into the field and a popup said that a company name is already registered with this account and changing it would require registration for any support or purchasing, so that's odd

Ha!

I've had an account for several years and I tried it too and it tells me the same thing! I guess I can buy their test equipment now ... 

Yep that's it exactly

When I get some time I might try and create an "asset" which to me means register a device to see if I can proceed to getting a calibration done

[AlfBaz]

I've read (aka skimmed) all of this thread. Am I right in assuming this change came about in 2020?

I ask simply because I have worked in large company ecosystems and words/statements from the top sometimes don't filter down to the very low levels and if you bring them up you'll get either eyerolls or stern looks depending on the context and how high up the person is you are talking to

The Keysight CEO my be a fuckwit (isn't that a prerequisite) but the guys working for him, at least the ones representing Keysight on this forum are good people so, you know, loop holes.
They may remain indefinitely or it'll be some time before the changes filter down

[Calvin]

Hi,

well let´s hope for those loop holes in the interest of KS.
But then ... I didn´t get any reply from those good people over here when I asked. 

regards
Calvin

Hmmmh ... I wonder what happens to those who won devices on Keysight Wave? Will they also be denied service? 

[Squarewave]

Hi,

I really had a giggle when I read that reply "Keysight products are designed, manufactured, and tested for professional and industrial use. They are not designed or tested for personal, domestic, or household use...."
It sounds so utter BS!
What is professional use anyway?

So it sounds as though Keysight are saying that unless you get paid to use their test equipment, then they don't want you using it......

Fine with me, I get paid to use Tektronix and TTi and Fluke.

[AVGresponding]

Hi,

well let´s hope for those loop holes in the interest of KS.
But then ... I didn´t get any reply from those good people over here when I asked. 

regards
Calvin

Hmmmh ... I wonder what happens to those who won devices on Keysight Wave? Will they also be denied service? 

Well, this was the situation as of yesterday:

I do wonder why Daniel from KS that frequents here has seemed to have gone AWOL however I'd bet his inbox is getting a bashing.

Well, the Keysight give-aways from Dave's raffle last April still haven't shown up, and I think Daniel has probably gone from "embarrassed" to "can't show my face in public".

Last time I heard from him in respect of that was 19th August last year. Part of me is going "Can't really complain, we are talking free after all", another part is going "Keysight eh? Lucky you changed the name or Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard would be turning in their graves.".

[madires]

Sorry, it's really that way.

I'm not going to take your word for it!

You are free to believe whatever you like.

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Hi,

well let´s hope for those loop holes in the interest of KS.
But then ... I didn´t get any reply from those good people over here when I asked. 

regards
Calvin

Hmmmh ... I wonder what happens to those who won devices on Keysight Wave? Will they also be denied service? 

Well, this was the situation as of yesterday:

I do wonder why Daniel from KS that frequents here has seemed to have gone AWOL however I'd bet his inbox is getting a bashing.

Well, the Keysight give-aways from Dave's raffle last April still haven't shown up, and I think Daniel has probably gone from "embarrassed" to "can't show my face in public".

Last time I heard from him in respect of that was 19th August last year. Part of me is going "Can't really complain, we are talking free after all", another part is going "Keysight eh? Lucky you changed the name or Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard would be turning in their graves.".

Hi everyone, I'm back from holiday break and a rough string of getting sick, sorry for the absence.

A couple things:

1 - Wave /  KU Live 2021 prizes - many are still in the works, some have been delivered. TBH it's been hell but I'm working on it. Those of you who might still be waiting can please feel free to reach out. I'm trying to prioritize the winners for folks like Dave as well.

2 - business vs. hobbyist - I can't say much more than what I've already said on the matter, but it's a legal thing and I'm doing as much as I possibly can to internally advocate for potential alternatives and solutions. As it stands now this is the situation, though. That being said, it's not a terrible idea or terribly expensive to have a small business setup somehow (at least in the US) for a number of reasons. I'm definitely not providing legal advice/business recommendations nor do I advocate doing it, but that's one possible way around it. Maybe folks could even work together on something like that...

-Daniel

[nctnico]

2 - business vs. hobbyist - I can't say much more than what I've already said on the matter, but it's a legal thing and I'm doing as much as I possibly can to internally advocate for potential alternatives and solutions. As it stands now this is the situation, though. That being said, it's not a terrible idea or terribly expensive to have a small business setup somehow (at least in the US) for a number of reasons. I'm definitely not providing legal advice/business recommendations nor do I advocate doing it, but that's one possible way around it. Maybe folks could even work together on something like that...

Thanks for responding to this thread. Is it possible for you to elaborate on the ability of equipment resellers to sell & offer service to individuals where it comes to Keysight equipment? And how about those resellers taking care of existing manufacturer warranty?

[Neganur]

In Florida, it costs about $100/year to maintain an LLC.

In other corners of the world it's more expensive and can also require lots of regular paperwork. And in my case I would even have to move or ask for a special permit since no businesses are allowed in the residential area I live.

I'm quite sure you are mistaken by that! Just read the fine print and you'll see that these limits apply to businesses that require some kind of permit (environmental for example) to operate. Registering a consulting or holding company won't be a problem at all. If you look in the registry with companies in your neighbourhood, you'll probably find plenty of them.

It's very common that in residential areas, any business - even one in your own house - is forbidden, without explicit permission. I would like to point out that laws/regulations can be different in different places in Germany, since many things are up to local urban administration and regional government authority. In some places it can be easy, other places already just working in a "home office" could potentially be a problem (in so-called "Reine Wohngebiete, § 3 BauNVO").

If you are interested, have a look at the following sources:
https://www.ihk-schleswig-holstein.de/starthilfe/existenzgruendung/recht-und-steuern/gewerbliche-nutzung-wohngebieten-5181616
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/baunvo/__3.html

[0culus]

Hi,

well let´s hope for those loop holes in the interest of KS.
But then ... I didn´t get any reply from those good people over here when I asked. 

regards
Calvin

Hmmmh ... I wonder what happens to those who won devices on Keysight Wave? Will they also be denied service? 

Well, this was the situation as of yesterday:

I do wonder why Daniel from KS that frequents here has seemed to have gone AWOL however I'd bet his inbox is getting a bashing.

Well, the Keysight give-aways from Dave's raffle last April still haven't shown up, and I think Daniel has probably gone from "embarrassed" to "can't show my face in public".

Last time I heard from him in respect of that was 19th August last year. Part of me is going "Can't really complain, we are talking free after all", another part is going "Keysight eh? Lucky you changed the name or Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard would be turning in their graves.".

Hi everyone, I'm back from holiday break and a rough string of getting sick, sorry for the absence.

A couple things:

1 - Wave /  KU Live 2021 prizes - many are still in the works, some have been delivered. TBH it's been hell but I'm working on it. Those of you who might still be waiting can please feel free to reach out. I'm trying to prioritize the winners for folks like Dave as well.

2 - business vs. hobbyist - I can't say much more than what I've already said on the matter, but it's a legal thing and I'm doing as much as I possibly can to internally advocate for potential alternatives and solutions. As it stands now this is the situation, though. That being said, it's not a terrible idea or terribly expensive to have a small business setup somehow (at least in the US) for a number of reasons. I'm definitely not providing legal advice/business recommendations nor do I advocate doing it, but that's one possible way around it. Maybe folks could even work together on something like that...

-Daniel

Good to see you around again, sorry to hear about the illness and the like. Hope everything's going ok in that arena. 

Personally, I can't afford the vast majority of what Keysight sells new. My personal lab here at home is full of -hp-, older Tektronix, and a few Agilent branded things because all of it can be had for tiny fractions of it's MSRP.

However, like many electronics hobbyists, I also do this stuff at work and I will say that this recent rash of IMO highly scummy behavior towards specialist consumers (whose money apparently isn't green enough?) makes me re-evaluate where I will go shopping for quotes when I need some piece of equipment for work. The legal considerations that the company thinks are important notwithstanding...it's just not a good look to those of us who use test equipment for our hobbies as well as buy stuff professionally. I shouldn't need a registered business if I have the disposable income to buy a used oscilloscope off your ebay store for my hobbies. Aside from ensuring a sale is ITAR compliant (if applicable), why should Keysight care? Yes, laboratory equipment is not consumer electronics, but the folks who are worried about this issue here are hardly regular consumers either.