Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

[Ed.Kloonk]

I think it's more a amateur vs professional view on customers. I my professional capacity when dealing with trade suppliers with that mindset, it becomes apparent that the intention is to dissuade customers who don't know what they are buying and attract those who do, because it's less hassle apparently.

What's laughable is the thinking that only people who work for a company will know what they are doing!

[Smokey]

... it's not a terrible idea or terribly expensive to have a small business setup somehow (at least in the US) for a number of reasons. ...

This. 
I'm not trying to justify Keysight's policy, which I think is silly, but he happens to be right about this.

Start a business.  It's actually really simple and inexpensive (even in California).  Then get a resellers license and stop paying tax at digikey.  If nothing else you will be ready to go when an opportunity arises to stop working for the man and do your own thing.

[Ed.Kloonk]

... it's not a terrible idea or terribly expensive to have a small business setup somehow (at least in the US) for a number of reasons. ...

This. 
I'm not trying to justify Keysight's policy, which I think is silly, but he happens to be right about this.

Start a business.  It's actually really simple and inexpensive (even in California).  Then get a resellers license and stop paying tax at digikey.  If nothing else you will be ready to go when an opportunity arises to stop working for the man and do your own thing.

Yeah nar.

In my part of the world, that is seen by some as the thin edge of the wedge. Next everyone has to be licenced.

[cdev]

As pointed out that is just shameful for a company that claims the legacy of [hp]

I think that since you bought their product, new, they owe you tech support now. They cant pull that.

I have a piece of gear thats more than 50 years old. Strangely, the model is still sold. and so its not EOL. When I bought it it had some issues, the manufacturers did respond to my pleas and did offer to fix it (out of warantee) but thanks to people here I figured out to get it working myself and now it works perfectly. If manufactures whose stuff I have bought pull that that will be the last dollar they see from me, that's for sure. I dont ask much, just civilized responses. And if a product is new, I expect warranteed service.

It is actually very easy to set upa business in California and some communities really offer a blt more in the way of help. I think Palo Alto and Mountain View one or the other have a whole library sized building just for inventors, with subscriptions to all sorts of databases of use and a terminal running right into the patent and trademark office so you can search all the patents. This isnt a big thing now because of the internet but when I was last there it was. If you can afford to live in a place like that, they make it much easier.

[cdev]

I have a friend who made small receivers. His local government went nuts when he inquired about setting up a business. They couldnt wait it seems to start regulating and taxing him. His business was hand making tiny receivers by doing reflow on his iron, yes on his spirit leveled iron, attached to his bench with a vise..Very low volume, but very high quality. He lived in South central Europe. Now he lives in Silicon Valley, I gather. No problems any more.

[nctnico]

In Florida, it costs about $100/year to maintain an LLC.

In other corners of the world it's more expensive and can also require lots of regular paperwork. And in my case I would even have to move or ask for a special permit since no businesses are allowed in the residential area I live.

I'm quite sure you are mistaken by that! Just read the fine print and you'll see that these limits apply to businesses that require some kind of permit (environmental for example) to operate. Registering a consulting or holding company won't be a problem at all. If you look in the registry with companies in your neighbourhood, you'll probably find plenty of them.

It's very common that in residential areas, any business - even one in your own house - is forbidden, without explicit permission. I would like to point out that laws/regulations can be different in different places in Germany, since many things are up to local urban administration and regional government authority. In some places it can be easy, other places already just working in a "home office" could potentially be a problem (in so-called "Reine Wohngebiete, § 3 BauNVO").

If you are interested, have a look at the following sources:
https://www.ihk-schleswig-holstein.de/starthilfe/existenzgruendung/recht-und-steuern/gewerbliche-nutzung-wohngebieten-5181616
https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/baunvo/__3.html

The article itself clearly states that running a small business isn't forbidden even in the most restricted zones. And if you delve a bit deeper, you'll find that it is never a problem to have a home office in Germany. Just as long as you don't use the majority of the home and don't have people coming in & out all day long. It is all common sense really; just be a good neighbour. Ofcourse official websites have to point to registration in order to prevent people from starting their own machine shop in their front yard and causing noise and cause heavy trucks coming and going all day.

[Someone]

Its like someone should make a business thats sole purpose is to buy things from Keysight to re-sell on to other people, and co-ordinate the support/warranty through their business credentials.....

... lets call it a distributor!

[Smokey]

Its like someone should make a business thats sole purpose is to buy things from Keysight to re-sell on to other people, and co-ordinate the support warranty through their business credentials.....

... lets call it a distributor!

Or just "employ" Keysight equipment purchasers....

[tautech]

Needing to register a business just to get support from an equipment manufacturer is nothing but an increase in cost of ownership for that brand.
As business registration costs are annually levied this additional yearly cost of ownership is akin to an annual tax for the pleasure of owning such brands.

So who likes paying an annual fee for brand support when they never have had to before ? 

[metebalci]

2 - business vs. hobbyist - I can't say much more than what I've already said on the matter, but it's a legal thing and I'm doing as much as I possibly can to internally advocate for potential alternatives and solutions. As it stands now this is the situation, though. That being said, it's not a terrible idea or terribly expensive to have a small business setup somehow (at least in the US) for a number of reasons. I'm definitely not providing legal advice/business recommendations nor do I advocate doing it, but that's one possible way around it. Maybe folks could even work together on something like that...

-Daniel

Not really a reply to Daniel, but is it only me finding this strange ? Isnt the purpose of starting a business is to make business ? I dont know if there can be a legal issue but starting a business in order to support ones hobbies sounds quite strange to me.

In case not clear, I also have (more than EE) reasons to use a business for my hobbies but I still find the idea very strange.

[Nominal Animal]

In Finland, if you start a side business, and then get laid off from your day work, you'll find it very difficult to near impossible to get unemployment benefits, since you are thenceforth categorized as an entrepreneur.  Yeah, it's a problem.

I do find it odd that there happens to be some kind of worldwide legal issue that only affects Keysight.  After all, other companies deal with the heavier customer protection laws by making private customers simply pay more, which would be perfectly understandable and acceptable.  I wonder how Keysight shareholders feel about the fact that the company officers refuse to make a profit off private customers?  Shareholders usually tend to be quite cranky and litigous when the officers fail to make a profit when one is obviously available.  If they're told that wink-wink, we'll sell, but only refuse the support by pointing out the tiny text on our eBay page or EULA, and the EU customer protection agencies catch a wiff of that, there could be a nasty legal fight on the way.  Don't forget, shrink-wrap EULAs are not enforceable in the EU, so such shenanigans are quite likely to fail at EU courts, too.

[nfmax]

In August 2019, as a personal buyer with an account of some years standing (and identifying myself as such at the time) I bought a used Keysight MSOX-3104T oscilloscope, with included software bundle, from Keysight via their eBay store. This came with 1 year warranty. The following year, I bought a 2-year return-to-Keysight Repair Agreement for the instrument direct from Keysight UK to extend this to the full 3 years. It will run until August 2022.

Although I am now working as a part-time contract engineer (for a company I am part owner of) I bought this for my own use, from my own funds, as a personal customer.

Will Keysight honour this agreement? That is the question! So far, nothing has gone wrong, but...

[Neganur]

The article itself clearly states that running a small business isn't forbidden even in the most restricted zones. And if you delve a bit deeper, you'll find that it is never a problem to have a home office in Germany. Just as long as you don't use the majority of the home and don't have people coming in & out all day long. It is all common sense really; just be a good neighbour. Ofcourse official websites have to point to registration in order to prevent people from starting their own machine shop in their front yard and causing noise and cause heavy trucks coming and going all day.

It is forbidden unless you get permission. That is all I wanted to point out.

[nctnico]

The article itself clearly states that running a small business isn't forbidden even in the most restricted zones. And if you delve a bit deeper, you'll find that it is never a problem to have a home office in Germany. Just as long as you don't use the majority of the home and don't have people coming in & out all day long. It is all common sense really; just be a good neighbour. Ofcourse official websites have to point to registration in order to prevent people from starting their own machine shop in their front yard and causing noise and cause heavy trucks coming and going all day.

It is forbidden unless you get permission. That is all I wanted to point out.

And you are wrong; that is all I wanted to point out. Sitting at home behind a desk, working on a computer is not something you'll need to have permission for (even in Germany): https://www.wohnung.com/ratgeber/252/wohnung-gewerbliche-nutzung-und-ihre-grenzen

[madires]

And you are wrong; that is all I wanted to point out. Sitting at home behind a desk, working on a computer is not something you'll need to have permission for (even in Germany)

Let's try to clarify things. In any case you can have a home office in your house/apartment in Germany. But there might be municipal rules for your street/block/area regarding businesses (and many things more). Those rules could be anything from no businesses at all up to no limitations, e.g. businesses which arent frequented by customers and don't involve any kind of production could be allowed in a specific residential area. Two streets further away brick and mortar shops might be fine. Before registering a business one should check the local rules to prevent trouble later on. And you always have the possibilty to request a special permit (it might be denied though).

[rox77]

wow! it is very surprising to read about this kind of problems with a manufacturer. i don't know how it will be in other countries but in europe those specific conditions would be ignored in any consumer claim if the consumer purchased the device through legal channels.

[ogden]

in europe those specific conditions would be ignored in any consumer claim if the consumer purchased the device through legal channels.

Right. If you are in EU - buy from EU distributor and you are covered. One that I know is batronix.com (not affiliate, just satisfied customer).

[kcbrown]

Transcat is US Keysight reseller that doesn't wash their hands of you once you make a purchase.

https://www.transcat.com/return-policy

I contacted Transcat directly via the phone.  They will not handle warranty claims for equipment that wasn't purchased from them.  However, they will handle everything else, including:

• Warranty claims for equipment purchased from them
• Non-warranty claims for any equipment, whether purchased from them or not.  From what I gather, they can perform some repairs themselves, and work with other repair businesses for those things they can't take care of themselves.

So save for warranty issues on equipment not purchased from them, they'll handle pretty much everything.  That, of course, is fantastic.  It's rare to find a one-stop shop like that.


But that still leaves warranty issues on equipment not purchased from them, which unfortunately doesn't address my point, and essentially blows Nico's claim out of the water.  T&M vendors, at least in the U.S., are not like car dealerships when it comes to warranty issues.

[kcbrown]

So far I didn't have any problems with Acal BFI handling warranty issues. Never had to deal with Keysight directly. In general I'd avoid a reseller redirecting warranty issues to the manufacturer; it is not what I pay them for.

Did you contact them about whether or not they'll handle warranty issues for equipment not purchased from them, in particular by individuals who have never been their customer in the past?

If so, what did they say?

[kaz911]

Hi everyone, I'm back from holiday break and a rough string of getting sick, sorry for the absence.

2 - business vs. hobbyist - I can't say much more than what I've already said on the matter, but it's a legal thing and I'm doing as much as I possibly can to internally advocate for potential alternatives and solutions. As it stands now this is the situation, though. That being said, it's not a terrible idea or terribly expensive to have a small business setup somehow (at least in the US) for a number of reasons. I'm definitely not providing legal advice/business recommendations nor do I advocate doing it, but that's one possible way around it. Maybe folks could even work together on something like that...

-Daniel

Hi Daniel,

sorry but the "just start a business" have wide implications for people in many regions around the world.

1. You could loose potential personal benefits (tax, government support, child care etc)
2. You set yourself up for paying accounting fees every year to maintain a business and provide the government with "information"
3. You can loose potential jobs - or at least it will increase the likelihood of questions like " How dedicated are you - you have your own side business" - and you could be in violation of your original employment contract - many which specify "you can't work for anyone else"
4. It can impact your pensions
5. It can impact your tax status and insurance payments incl. UK National Insurance payments

But I think if anyone who purchased via Keysight eBay store actually took Keysight to court over the policy - the win would IMO be clear. eBay is primarily a B2C/C2C market place and by advertising and selling on a B2C/C2C marketplace local law is to be upheld - which means full warranty and service to the countries that Keysight advertise, sell and ship to that have local Keysight representation. But that is just my opinion. If Keysight is serious about the no consumer policy - the eBay store should be shut down immediately.

But Daniel - please get rid of the MBA who thinks your new policy is a great idea. The policy is a bit like peeing your pants - it warms at first but gets very cold rather quickly. The MBA in charge is probably the same person who thinks it is great to add annual subscription products across you lines of products.
 
Anyway - for me it means no more Keysight gear at all. If you do not like the smell in the bakery - you leave. - and I DO own a company. I might not be a big customer - but I'm well past $50k in (relatively recent) Keysight gear. As I'm not a fan of the Dark Side either - I'm soon left with only Far East products.

[nctnico]

Hi everyone, I'm back from holiday break and a rough string of getting sick, sorry for the absence.

2 - business vs. hobbyist - I can't say much more than what I've already said on the matter, but it's a legal thing and I'm doing as much as I possibly can to internally advocate for potential alternatives and solutions. As it stands now this is the situation, though. That being said, it's not a terrible idea or terribly expensive to have a small business setup somehow (at least in the US) for a number of reasons. I'm definitely not providing legal advice/business recommendations nor do I advocate doing it, but that's one possible way around it. Maybe folks could even work together on something like that...

-Daniel

Hi Daniel,

sorry but the "just start a business" have wide implications for people in many regions around the world.

1. You could loose potential personal benefits (tax, government support, child care etc)
2. You set yourself up for paying accounting fees every year to maintain a business and provide the government with "information"
3. You can loose potential jobs - or at least it will increase the likelihood of questions like " How dedicated are you - you have your own side business" - and you could be in violation of your original employment contract - many which specify "you can't work for anyone else"
4. It can impact your pensions
5. It can impact your tax status and insurance payments incl. UK National Insurance payments

No to all of the above. In most countries (including the UK) having a company registered doesn't mean you are also actually running a business and are being treated as self-employed (and loose typical employee benefits). It would be nice if people actually read up on the subject matter before spreading a whole bunch of FUD. Having a business registered and actually creating your primary income from it, are two entirely seperated things from the tax collectors' perspective. In the end the government is not going to waste time & effort on doing all the accounting for companies that have a revenue which is close to zero.

I've had (and still have) a company registered in the NL for over a 25 years already while being employed, working on the side, being laid off (due to employer bankruptcy) and being self employed so I've been in all the situations outlined above and having a company registered never got in the way of anything. Never paid a dime for accounting fees as well.

[Ed.Kloonk]

In the end the government is not going to waste time & effort on doing all the accounting for companies that have a revenue which is close to zero.

Here in Oz your govt shift the responsibility onto you in the form of Business Activity statements. You collect the tax and you do the administration for them, thank you very much.

And even if you're not selling any widgets, you still are required to sit down and do the paperwork 4 times a year in addition to your regular annual income tax preparation.

[Someone]

In the end the government is not going to waste time & effort on doing all the accounting for companies that have a revenue which is close to zero.

Here in Oz your govt shift the responsibility onto you in the form of Business Activity statements. You collect the tax and you do the administration for them, thank you very much.

And even if you're not selling any widgets, you still are required to sit down and do the paperwork 4 times a year in addition to your regular annual income tax preparation.

More country specific derailing! Also, in Australia for the example discussed here it would be annual simplified reporting:
https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Business-activity-statements-(BAS)/Due-dates-for-lodging-and-paying-your-BAS/

[Ed.Kloonk]

In the end the government is not going to waste time & effort on doing all the accounting for companies that have a revenue which is close to zero.

Here in Oz your govt shift the responsibility onto you in the form of Business Activity statements. You collect the tax and you do the administration for them, thank you very much.

And even if you're not selling any widgets, you still are required to sit down and do the paperwork 4 times a year in addition to your regular annual income tax preparation.

More country specific derailing! Also, in Australia for the example discussed here it would be annual simplified reporting:
https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Business-activity-statements-(BAS)/Due-dates-for-lodging-and-paying-your-BAS/

Apologies.

[kaz911]

  No to all of the above. In most countries (including the UK) having a company registered doesn't mean you are also actually running a business and are being treated as self-employed (and loose typical employee benefits). It would be nice if people actually read up on the subject matter before spreading a whole bunch of FUD. Having a business registered and actually creating your primary income from it, are two entirely seperated things from the tax collectors' perspective. In the end the government is not going to waste time & effort on doing all the accounting for companies that have a revenue which is close to zero.

I've had (and still have) a company registered in the NL for over a 25 years already while being employed, working on the side, being laid off (due to employer bankruptcy) and being self employed so I've been in all the situations outlined above and having a company registered never got in the way of anything. Never paid a dime for accounting fees as well.

nctnico - that (in the UK) really depends on how you set up your business. And you have to make and file accounts. And NI payments are very different if you are a registered company director - or an employee. And most regulation is based on "self reporting" - so if you do not report they do not react. But in case of problems they will turn your life upside down. You can mark your company as "non-trading / inactive / dormant " and avoid a lot reporting apart from periodic confirmation statements - but then the company is not allowed to do anything (on paper) - but you still have to file the statements.

And regarding employment while having a company - well - you might have been lucky. If a company goes through a redundancy round - they will use any excuse in the book to get rid of you - especially in place where it is hard to get rid of people. So having a company thereby potentially "voiding" your employment contract can be an issue.

You are welcome to discuss the nuances with my wife who is a corp tax director as well. It is NOT without personal risk setting up a business.

I have owned and managed large companies across Europe. I have had permanent staff in SE, DK, UK, DE, FR, NL, IT, ES & PT.  And from the list - NL & DK are the most "liberal" regarding self employment vs employee. UK not far behind - but UK again is more based on self reporting than snooping (still). And HMRC is very segregated between Personal and Company.

And as "Nominal Animal" wrote - in FI you class as entrepreneur if you setup your own business, potentially limiting your access to benefits.

So the risks are very dependent on the country you live in. And having a registered business CAN be a breeze - but it can also be a pain - especially in the more bureaucratic countries.

It can also impact your personal credit rating if you have a company with very little throughput. Companies like Experian match your company registration with you - move your credit rating based on your company performance (and all the other data they have about you)

So like everything in life - there can be complications.

So I'm all for people setting up companies - but do NOT do it without prior advice from an accountant who knows your situation including your personal situation. Check your employment contract - and check with your employer if they are ok with it if it breaches your employment contract. Get it in writing if they approve. Check the papers you need to file annually and ask the accountant if you can do them yourself - or if someone has to file on your behalf (like an accountant)