Keysight officially lost the plot - don't buy if you're a hobbyist

[HalFoster]

1design-

It was much the same situation here although our move to R&S and Anritsu was admittedly more one of the edge cases you mentioned - 50+ GHz black magic voodoo gear - but we noticed that the after-the-sale support was much easier with R&S and Anritsu - they usually offer to send someone that day to personally address any issues.  We've bought 3458As by the pallet over the last couple of years but Keysight is still "call and hope they get back with us this week" for us.  While Keysight talks a good game, the actual core values - Dave and Bill's HP Way - are completely absent and have been for quite a few years.

Hal

[Anthocyanina]

Closing a bug report without a reply is not a very responsible thing to do - however, a poorly described bug would not get the same attention. Since in the thread you had to go back and forth a few times to get John to reproduce it, perhaps you could try to resubmit the ticket but this time pointing to the element14 thread?  (if you can spare the time, of course).

To clarify, they did give a response when i let them know I was not a corporate client. I did mention that if not being a corporate client meant they wouldn't bother with the case, so be it, and this was their response. When I reported this to Keysight I was more descriptive and added screenshots showing the settings under which the bug happened

Indeed with that added information it is completely understandable to not pursue this any further. At least your findings are public and becomes a resourceful "known bug" of this unit.   

It's plain stupid to get a "good" bug report and then to discard it on the grounds of "not a corporate customer that complains about it".
A few years and Keysight will be the "Microsoft" of TE companys, on the support decisions they already have reached this level and product quality will follow soon.
By this logic, they should make it a lot harder to file bug reports - there will be (on the corporate statistics) sooo many less bugs in the products 
They're Too big to fail now...

Yeah, I think so as well, I haven't really come across a problem that requires me to use a burst like the one set up in the screenshots i shared on element14, so for me, the generator is completely usable as it is(the physical buttons interface is slow, but you can control it very quickly from the computer), and there's a workaround to that bug that requires you to change the starting phase, so still usable. I thought it would be Keysight themselves who would benefit the most from correcting that bug, as by doing so their paying customers would then find in that generator a perfectly working unit, and not a bugged one, possibly increasing their trust in the brand. But if they don't care about that, they must be prepared to deal with whatever consequences may or may not come from selling a buggy product 

[EE-digger]

The poster's experience with the rejected bug report is very unfortunate indeed.  On one hand I understand the frustration of dealing with SOME of the public but OTOH, many individuals are engineers by day, some with large budgets at their disposal.  I think the report should have been handled but perhaps along a slower, lower cost path within Keysight.  But nevertheless, still brought to a conclusion.

This past year I had to twist some arms at Keysight (gently of course, no Keysight personnel were injured) to get the privilege to buy parts restored.  This after, literally, 50 years of buying HP / Agilent / Keysight equipment.

Kudos to Keysight's people for always being professional and willing to help.  More kudos to Keysight for fixing my scope this past year also and going above and beyond to FIND the problem and then doing the same again (with thermal testing and observation) to be sure it was GONE.

Unfortunately, everything today is scripted.  You go to a doctor or dentist and they blindly (sometimes) drop codes into place on your "sheet" resulting in crazy charges for a 15 minute visit.

I suspect the same is happening at Keysight.  Unless you get hold of a manager high enough to carry the problem to a permanent solution, the "scripts" on how to process calls, requests, complaints, etc. just revert back to their normal manner of processing.

[arcitech]

Having to "work to restore" your privilege to buy parts sounds like a really sad way to wipe spit off your face, ee-digger.

I'm facing the same sort of chore presently because my company uses vendor-based email addresses routed through a wildcard forwarder that goes to a vendor comms distribution group. It makes more sense in the screenshot shared (and yes I do realize I've got my own typo there).

I'm of the opinion that they and other companies are not solely, but in part, taking this stance for the legal benefit around having product safety fall under the (much more thinly spread) OSHA here in the US rather than under the Consumer Product Safety Commission. I don't know if this delineation is done similarly in other parts of the world, but given how litigious Americans tend to be, that may not matter much.

[HighVoltage]

... Unless you get hold of a manager high enough to carry the problem to a permanent solution ...

I just had this very same way with the right person at Keysight in Germany and my problem was solved on the fly.

Sometimes it helps to call more than one time.

[bd139]

Sometimes it helps to call more than one time.

This works everywhere. Also make sure you complain about who wasn't helpful.

[dracotonisamond]

I was in the market for a second bench DMM and my purchase was a keithley instead of keysight in direct response to this thread.

good information.

[arcitech]

Sometimes it helps to call more than one time.

This works everywhere. Also make sure you complain about who wasn't helpful.

If anyone might want to PM me a helpful human being that'd I'd be able to engage with, that'd be much appreciated. I'd prefer someone who's stateside and not obstinate.

I do hope not every customer-facing human w/ an @keysight.com email address treats a small business (that's verifiable at the federal, and more recently state, level) as if it deserves neither service nor information, but deserves to be flat-out lied to -- e.g. your domain is blocked (despite us exchanging emails through it!?), you have no web page (despite the domain we're emailing through clearly having one?!).

Not only was I met with plain dishonesty (perhaps just ignorance misinterpreted), but an offer to provide info for govt verification, and a simple request to just learn what that person needed from me, have both gone ignored.

I had to think very hard about offering up a (PII-sanitized) account of exactly what this exchange, over the course of a week, looked like, but before putting that on blast I'd like to figure out whether that can go into a more appropriate pair of hands.

I have a feeling the individual apparently at the "helm" of the inflatable raft that is parts web sales feels like a real patriot -- a key stakeholder in US national security -- by keeping replacement power supply knobs or bumpers out of the "wrong" hands. Things like that really should fall under ITAR, ya know.

[Zucca]

I just quote my new 3 Tek scopes for work.

Just to let Keysight know that, because they do not support me when I am at home, I do not support them when I am at work.

[nctnico]

  So you are going to waste your employer's time and money for something that is very likely not even a real thing? My very recent (last month) experience with Keysight support was very positive... More likely the problem is that some people simply have poor communication skills and therefore ended up on the 'ignore' stack at the support department.

Better make sure you buy the equipment with the best fit for the task at hand. Otherwise you'll just be contorting yourself.

[Zoli]

So you are going to waste your employer's time and money for something that is very likely not even a real thing? My very recent (last month) experience with Keysight support was very positive... More likely the problem is that some people simply have poor communication skills and therefore ended up on the 'ignore' stack at the support department.

Better make sure you buy the equipment with the best fit for the task at hand. Otherwise you'll just be contorting yourself.

Keysight with his current policy practically put the resale value of their test equipment close to zero; by not recommending, you serve the interest of your employer, since the competition holds value much better.

[nctnico]

Nonsense. Companies buy test equipment to make a profit from the functionality, not resale value. In some cases test equipment is written as part of a single project. Test equipment devaluates faster than a car. Even when test equipment is sold, it is bought by other companies like used test equipment dealers that sell to businesses. This whole thread smells more and more like a hoax to me.

[Zucca]

This whole thread smells more and more like a hoax to me.

KS do not support not commercial customer anymore. Personally I do not like it, I think it is not a smart move for everybody involved.
For every wrong choice there are consequences. It is very simple, there are no hoax or other animals here.

Yes I gave my private money (a lot) in the past to KS.

[Zucca]

Better make sure you buy the equipment with the best fit for the task at hand. Otherwise you'll just be contorting yourself.

How do you know what is the best for my company?

[Zoli]

Nonsense. Companies buy tes equipment to make a profit from the functionality, not resale value. In some cases test equipment is written as part of a single project. Test equipment devaluates faster than a car.

Speak for yourself; what you say, doesn't applies to EVERY situation; since the resale value can contribute to purchase decision, especially with lean manufacturing(don't ask me how I know, since is under NDA); renting wasn't an option(1.5year project time rent=2Xpurchase price).

[nctnico]

Better make sure you buy the equipment with the best fit for the task at hand. Otherwise you'll just be contorting yourself.

How do you know what is the best for my company?

You know that best and you shouldn't let yourself be blinded by something that is essentially not important for your business in any way. In the end principles just cost money.

I think it is pretty well known that I'm not a fan of Siglent -to say the least- but nevertheless I don't let that affect business decissions. For a business the best choice is the one that makes most sense economically so I'm not going to discard any brand just because of the brand.

[Bassman59]

Nonsense. Companies buy test equipment to make a profit from the functionality, not resale value. In some cases test equipment is written as part of a single project. Test equipment devaluates faster than a car. Even when test equipment is sold, it is bought by other companies like used test equipment dealers that sell to businesses. This whole thread smells more and more like a hoax to me.

I think this is true. A small company buys test equipment and uses each piece of kit until it dies and can't be repaired. Resale isn't even part of the discussion. Whether the gear is new or used depends on the company needs and budget.

Larger companies that have generous capital budgets buy what departments request. Who hasn't been asked what they want to buy with that "end of fiscal year leftover budget money that has to be spent?" (I suspect that everyone would prefer, "give me a bonus!" but for some stupid accounting reason, capital and labor expenses are separate pots of money.) Kit that is replaced gets shuffled off to other departments that can use it, or else the people who deal with surplus equipment come in and take it away.

I have no experience with recent Keysight gear or their service.

[robert.rozee]

In the end principles just cost money.

one should think very carefully before making such bold statements


cheers,
rob   :-)

[tv84]

Just to let Keysight know that, because they do not support me when I am at home, I do not support them when I am at work.

 

In the end principles just cost money.

Stretching it further: in the end anything just cost money.

[staticresident]

As someone starting out in this field I am not too interested in their products anyway.  There is decent competition in the entry level equipment that I'm looking at, so I have many other choices to pick from.

This type of move really sucks for those people that have legitimate problems with the gear they purchased and need help.  I always try to solve issues myself or with google before calling the manufacturer just so I don't waste their time, but sometimes you have no other choice but to make that call.

[J-R]

I will not fault anyone who is on a tight budget for buying what is just good enough, but personally I now prefer the higher quality equipment, even if I don't need it.  It's just nice to have things you enjoy using.  So far all of my HP/A/K stuff is worth a lot more now than when I bought it.  (Same for Fluke and Keithley.)

Keysight has been great to work with the last year.  I've purchased various new & used items from different sources and they have been happy to sell me warranty/support for everything so far.  I am not a business, and on the quotes/invoices it just has my name/address listed.  I had one item sent in for repair this spring, and they sent me a replacement.  The pricing for the KeysightCare is a little odd, such that it might be $50 for a $250 DMM but only $75 for a $2k power supply.  Obviously it's hardly worth it for the $250 DMM.  Most likely a lot of the cost is a calculation from a base-line administrative/shipping perspective.

I have called in a few times and have always been able to get a live person.  I do wish they would allow me to purchase/extend coverage through their website.  For now you have to work with someone via e-mail/phone to get the quote, then call in and give a credit card over the phone (or mail a check).

[TwistedTransistor]

My very recent (last month) experience with Keysight support was very positive... More likely the problem is that some people simply have poor communication skills and therefore ended up on the 'ignore' stack at the support department.

This whole thread smells more and more like a hoax to me.

It's a phenomenon that's been reported by a multitude of people for a period spanning several years now. Your experience is merely one (very recent) data point. I give it an appropriate weighting, epsilon.

As to your theory that we are all either liars involved in some grand hoax, or are too stupid to communicate our problems effectively... well I give that an even smaller weighting, nought. There's no reason to suppose that that's true and frankly it makes you a bit of a dick.

You should withdraw your egregious accusations.

[nfmax]

In August 2019, as a personal buyer with an account of some years standing (and identifying myself as such at the time) I bought a used Keysight MSOX-3104T oscilloscope, with included software bundle, from Keysight via their eBay store. This came with 1 year warranty. The following year, I bought a 2-year return-to-Keysight Repair Agreement for the instrument direct from Keysight UK to extend this to the full 3 years. It will run until August 2022.

Although I am now working as a part-time contract engineer (for a company I am part owner of) I bought this for my own use, from my own funds, as a personal customer.

Will Keysight honour this agreement? That is the question! So far, nothing has gone wrong, but...

Well, nothing went wrong 

I received an email just before the support agreement expired, offering me another 3 years support and a calibration (This scope has a 3-year cal cycle). I accepted, paid by bank transfer, and arranged the scope be collected for recal. They asked me for a company name, I just said I'm a Sole Trader using my own name, which is the actual situation, and they were happy with this.

No problem: the scope was collected the following Monday and FedExed back on Thursday, with the annoying offset on channel 1 gone. The only problem is, I can't log in to the Keysight web site to download my cal certificate - some sort of Oracle database problem, by the looks of things. I've raised a support request.

So maybe not as bad as we had feared - but I am a professional, as well as a hobbyist

[ralphrmartin]

I received an email just before the support agreement expired, offering me another 3 years support and a calibration ... I accepted... They asked me for a company name, I just said I'm a Sole Trader using my own name, which is the actual situation, and they were happy with this.

Then clearly that is a business purchase, and you would not be covered by any consumer legislation (e.g. right to return mail ordered goods within a limited period, without giving a reason). I'm pretty sure that's what this whole thing is about. Keysight presumably have decided that consumers are given so many rights, that it is not worth the potential problems and costs of handling such customers. By limiting sales to businesses, they will be much more able to set the terms and conditions to their liking. While they may have reckoned that losing the few consumer sales they used to have was a price worth paying, it is less obvious whether they have correctly factored in the loss of goodwill of such a decision, especially where such (potential) consumers influence businesses.

[J-R]

FYI, Keysight pulled all their listings from ebay around the first few days of September and one person I spoke with said they have no plans to resume sales on ebay.  They wouldn't give a reason.  It could be related to this topic where they want to focus on larger/business customers, or it could be due to ebay's "secret" Refurbished program or some other ebay policy.  Or some other business decision.