Keysight products not to be sold to private customers?

[nightfire]

Just had a look for some multimeter specs and noticed that on the website of german reseller Batronix the following text was displayed with their multimeters: "According to the manufacturer Keysight products may not be sold to private customers. Please contact our sales team"

On the welectron site a similar text appeared, that is gone now, but now the multimeters are flagged as "sale"

Anyone that can confirm this or knows whats going on and why?

[graybeard]

There is no restriction on purchasing Keysight products from Newark or Mouser.

[25 CPS]

I've ordered parts and accessories from Keysight directly and bought a couple of meters from different retailers plus Keysight's eBay store.  It might be worth calling Keysight's office in Germany and speaking to them directly.

The only thing I can see a ban on selling Keysight multimeters to individuals doing is creating Fluke customers, and I don't think Keysight wants to send business over to the competition.

[rf-loop]

I've ordered parts and accessories from Keysight directly and bought a couple of meters from different retailers plus Keysight's eBay store.  It might be worth calling Keysight's office in Germany and speaking to them directly.

The only thing I can see a ban on selling Keysight multimeters to individuals doing is creating Fluke customers, and I don't think Keysight wants to send business over to the competition.

It is not only multimeters.  All Keysight products in Batronix same note.

Bit weird after this published just November 2020
https://www.keysight.com/sg/en/about/newsroom/news-releases/2020/1124-nr20127-keysight-expands-european-distribution-channel-.html

[Co6aka]

Some new "consumer protection" law nonsense maybe, that business entities are exempted from?



("The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem." -- Milton Friedman)

[tautech]

I've ordered parts and accessories from Keysight directly and bought a couple of meters from different retailers plus Keysight's eBay store.  It might be worth calling Keysight's office in Germany and speaking to them directly.

The only thing I can see a ban on selling Keysight multimeters to individuals doing is creating Fluke customers, and I don't think Keysight wants to send business over to the competition.

It is not only multimeters.  All Keysight products in Batronix same note.

Bit weird after this published just November 2020
https://www.keysight.com/sg/en/about/newsroom/news-releases/2020/1124-nr20127-keysight-expands-european-distribution-channel-.html

No such  on my neighbors site Triotest over the ditch in Oz.
https://www.triotest.com.au/brands/keysight

[egonotto]

Hello,

because of warranty for private customer are far more extensive?

Best regards
egonotto

[Analog4]

I just bought a Keysight scope with a Credit Card, no issue here. They even offer phone support for technical questions, no company needed.

Keysight has a list of distributors in various countries including Germany: https://www.keysight.com/main/partnerfinder.jspx?N=1+187691+187535&pageMode=PF&cc=DE&lc=ger&tmprop=TM

Datatec does not seem to have an obvious disclaimer: https://www.datatec.de/keysight-dsox1202g

[Stray Electron]

I've ordered parts and accessories from Keysight directly and bought a couple of meters from different retailers plus Keysight's eBay store.  It might be worth calling Keysight's office in Germany and speaking to them directly.

The only thing I can see a ban on selling Keysight multimeters to individuals doing is creating Fluke customers, and I don't think Keysight wants to send business over to the competition.

It is not only multimeters.  All Keysight products in Batronix same note.

Bit weird after this published just November 2020
https://www.keysight.com/sg/en/about/newsroom/news-releases/2020/1124-nr20127-keysight-expands-european-distribution-channel-.html

   That webpage lists the phone number of Keysight's sales representative. Call them up and see what they say about this policy!  While you're at it, ask them how many potential Keysight customers do they estimate that this announcement has driven to their competitors!   

[EEVblog]

Maybe a condition of some wholesale pricing deal perhaps?
But yeah, that's 

[xmo]

Maybe it has to do with a new regulation in Germany?

I used to buy parts from Rohde & Schwarz (USA) but the last time I put in an order, after they took it, they turned around and notified me that their home office will no longer let them sell to individuals.

So, the last instruments I bought were from Keysight, Rigol, and Siglent.  They're all happy to take your money.

[wizard69]

Probably some silly safety regulation like gun control or knife control laws that never impact the criminals anyway.  This seems to be the way in many countries as anything that might be seen as professional needs to be kept out of the hands of commoners.   God forbid; somebody might hurt themselves.   

I actually have not idea what is going on in europe but we have seen how silly some of the regulations coming out of the EU are.   I know that Keysight (whom ever they are today) doesn't have an issue selling to people here.   it would be nice to get an official comment from Keysight so all of this speculation can be put aside.

This seems to be especially strange to come up this year when so many people are working outside the office, often with personally owned tools.  Just poor timing maybe.   Or maybe the local office in Gemany is staffed with people that don't like to work with small fry.   All around strange really.

Maybe it has to do with a new regulation in Germany?

I used to buy parts from Rohde & Schwarz (USA) but the last time I put in an order, after they took it, they turned around and notified me that their home office will no longer let them sell to individuals.

So, the last instruments I bought were from Keysight, Rigol, and Siglent.  They're all happy to take your money.

[nightfire]

Well, I can think of serveral reasons not to sell expensive gear via online shopping/mail order to individuals: Due to german laws, any supplier is required to take back any order without given reason within 14 days. So it is not uncommon that people order expensive stuff like cameras, go to vacation and return the stuff in time- so the seller has lots of hassle doing the return and can sell the gear only for reduced price to the next buyer.
Some shops that do photographic gear list the expensive cameras in their shop, but claim that first-time-buyers need some personal demonstration in the store before buying to protect against this kind of customers.

But this would only explain why gear above some magic mark would be affected, maybe the oscilloscopes and bench DMMs etc.- the handheld DMMs are quite cheap compared to the rest...

Or lots of untrained wannabes create lots of hassle within support, so they try to cut them off...

[Qw3rtzuiop]

Its just one seller who doesnt sell to private customers. And they just became a Keysight distributor. So i wouldnt expect it to be a regulation thing.

[Performa01]

Datatec does not seem to have an obvious disclaimer: https://www.datatec.de/keysight-dsox1202g

They need not have a disclaimer, since they don't sell to private customers in general. See AGB.

[Nominal Animal]

(Don't mind me, I'm here just waiting for someone to drop in and say that because they can buy secondhand Keysight products off eBay just fine, you're all lying.)

[Alex P]

I used to buy parts from Rohde & Schwarz (USA) but the last time I put in an order, after they took it, they turned around and notified me that their home office will no longer let them sell to individuals.

Same here in the Netherlands.

[jpanhalt]

I used to buy parts from Rohde & Schwarz (USA) but the last time I put in an order, after they took it, they turned around and notified me that their home office will no longer let them sell to individuals.

Same here in the Netherlands.

Maybe that is an unintended consequence of consumer protection laws?  The Netherlands and EU seem to be similar to what has been mentioned for Germany.

Source: https://www.consumentenbond.nl/juridisch-advies/koop-op-afstand?icmp=juridischadvies_home_tekstlink_keuzehulpaankoopdeur
This [online vs. in-store purchases] is different when purchasing a product on the internet, by telephone or at the door (colportage). A statutory reflection period of 14 days applies for this.

[tv84]

In portuguese we say something like "pay the righteous for the sinner". And we're probably seeing the consequences of many people abusing that drive by method of experimenting/using things and returning them.

Recent statistics show that, for major online retailers, 25% of returned goods go to the waste bin...

[Saskia]

Datatec does not seem to have an obvious disclaimer: https://www.datatec.de/keysight-dsox1202g

They need not have a disclaimer, since they don't sell to private customers in general. See AGB.

got my stuff from Datatec, however a Keysight manager told them that they needed to sell me a scope.

[MadScientist]

What precisely are you referring to in “ silly EU regulations “ and what has gun control to do with it. The EU doesn’t and has never set firearms policy , that’s a national competence

[MadScientist]

I used to buy parts from Rohde & Schwarz (USA) but the last time I put in an order, after they took it, they turned around and notified me that their home office will no longer let them sell to individuals.

Same here in the Netherlands.

Maybe that is an unintended consequence of consumer protection laws?  The Netherlands and EU seem to be similar to what has been mentioned for Germany.

Source: https://www.consumentenbond.nl/juridisch-advies/koop-op-afstand?icmp=juridischadvies_home_tekstlink_keuzehulpaankoopdeur
This [online vs. in-store purchases] is different when purchasing a product on the internet, by telephone or at the door (colportage). A statutory reflection period of 14 days applies for this.

I suspect this is the reason.

[Saskia]

What precisely are you referring to in “ silly EU regulations “ and what has gun control to do with it. The EU doesn’t and has never set firearms policy , that’s a national competence

no, that's not true anymore. See the latest Firearms directive which has outlawed quite a lot of nice machinery practically overnite over here.

[YetAnotherTechie]

no, that's not true anymore. See the latest Firearms directive which has outlawed quite a lot of nice machinery practically overnite over here.

What part? i just had a quick read and didn't see anything specific to machinery, can you give an example of machinery outlawed?

[rsjsouza]

In portuguese we say something like "pay the righteous for the sinner". And we're probably seeing the consequences of many people abusing that drive by method of experimenting/using things and returning them.

Recent statistics show that, for major online retailers, 25% of returned goods go to the waste bin...

Funny you mention that; in Brasil we always had a hard time purchasing "professional/specialized" equipment, parts, etc from distributors - a lot of them chose not to sell to the end customer as they didn't want to deal with the hassle of returns/warranty/etc. (despite the return policy in Brasil being mostly targeted to manufacturing defects and not "change of heart").

That was not necessarily the case for test gear, but it affected a lot of other products.

[Monkeh]

no, that's not true anymore. See the latest Firearms directive which has outlawed quite a lot of nice machinery practically overnite over here.

What part? i just had a quick read and didn't see anything specific to machinery, can you give an example of machinery outlawed?

A firearm being a machine..

[gslick]

I've ordered parts and accessories from Keysight directly and bought a couple of meters from different retailers plus Keysight's eBay store.  It might be worth calling Keysight's office in Germany and speaking to them directly.

In the past replacement parts could be bought directly from Agilent in the US, ordered and paid for online through their replacements parts page, as an individual.

https://www.keysight.com/my/fapHomePage

Sometime in the last few years that changed. Anyone can register for an online Keysight account, but then you need to go though an additional authorization process to add the replacement parts purchasing capability to the online account. That needs to be done using a business address and email account, not a personal email account. There is some level of verification that it is a valid business address and email account.

I tried to get an online Keysight account authorized for replacement parts purchasing online as an individual last year and was unable to do so. I ended up calling their parts number on the phone and taking to a human to successfully place the order. At the time I didn't try talking to the human about getting the online replacement parts capability added to my account, maybe that is something they could do if you talked to a human on the phone about it.

[25 CPS]

I used to buy parts from Rohde & Schwarz (USA) but the last time I put in an order, after they took it, they turned around and notified me that their home office will no longer let them sell to individuals.

Same here in the Netherlands.

I understand why businesses don't want the overhead of bad customers but it sounds like individuals are being tarred with a pretty broad brush here.

That's good to know about Rhode and Schwarz.  It's surprising to me, and extremely disappointing that they'd turn around to both of you as existing customers that they've sold to before and have an existing business relationship with, and blanket applied the "no individuals" policy, leaving you in the lurch in the process.  That old saying about being 10x easier to keep an existing customer than getting a new one comes to mind so I really wonder what they're thinking with alienating existing customers like that.  It certainly makes me reconsider buying any Rhode and Schwarz gear pretty strongly.

That's actually one of the reasons why I've leaned strongly towards buying Keysight (Agilent, Hewlett Packard) where possible.  They've been great to deal with, parts availability has been great when I've needed it, and the amount of legacy product documentation that they've kept online is fantastic.  It's a shame that individuals have been shut out in at least some locations.  This hasn't affected me so far, but I worry about the practice spreading.

[xmo]

Despite having placed several previous orders with R&S including having a customer number, they insisted that: "Per our main office in Germany, could you provide us with an official document like a W9 which shows the company name and address?"

I brought this to the attention of the rep that had previously taken my orders & was told they would check on it.  No one even had the courtesy to get back to me.

What these companies may not consider is that the little guy with a lab in his basement works for somebody - and maybe that somebody buys a lot of stuff.

In the last couple years my employer has spent close to a half million USD on test & measurement products.  The majority of that business went to Keysight with the rest to Tektronix, Anritsu, and Viavi (Aeroflex) 

Sorry, R&S, but if  I am not good enough to do business with - why would I recommend your products to my employer - or to anyone for that matter.
 

[Bud]

  I worry about the practice spreading.

This is how it was before, if anything it would be going back to what it was, nothing new.

[Rich@RohdeScopesUSA]

Despite having placed several previous orders with R&S including having a customer number, they insisted that: "Per our main office in Germany, could you provide us with an official document like a W9 which shows the company name and address?"

I brought this to the attention of the rep that had previously taken my orders & was told they would check on it.  No one even had the courtesy to get back to me.

What these companies may not consider is that the little guy with a lab in his basement works for somebody - and maybe that somebody buys a lot of stuff.

In the last couple years my employer has spent close to a half million USD on test & measurement products.  The majority of that business went to Keysight with the rest to Tektronix, Anritsu, and Viavi (Aeroflex) 

Sorry, R&S, but if  I am not good enough to do business with - why would I recommend your products to my employer - or to anyone for that matter.

Hi xmo - I shot you a PM.  If you have time, would greatly appreciate a reply.

Thanks,
Rich

[xmo]

I answered Rich.  For the group, this is definitely not a Keysight issue.  I had zero problem buying from them now or in the past.  Here is a picture of my new Keysight scope helping me look at FM IBOC.

Also, to point out the value of good customer relations - I'll attach a screen shot I grabbed yesterday during training we are receiving on our new Keysight system that does 24x7 spectrum awareness, geolocation, and interference hunting.  Sorry, didn't look at R&S.

[Stray Electron]

I've ordered parts and accessories from Keysight directly and bought a couple of meters from different retailers plus Keysight's eBay store.  It might be worth calling Keysight's office in Germany and speaking to them directly.

In the past replacement parts could be bought directly from Agilent in the US, ordered and paid for online through their replacements parts page, as an individual.

https://www.keysight.com/my/fapHomePage

Sometime in the last few years that changed. Anyone can register for an online Keysight account, but then you need to go though an additional authorization process to add the replacement parts purchasing capability to the online account. That needs to be done using a business address and email account, not a personal email account. There is some level of verification that it is a valid business address and email account.

I tried to get an online Keysight account authorized for replacement parts purchasing online as an individual last year and was unable to do so. I ended up calling their parts number on the phone and taking to a human to successfully place the order. At the time I didn't try talking to the human about getting the online replacement parts capability added to my account, maybe that is something they could do if you talked to a human on the phone about it.

  Since when?  I last ordered parts for a HP 34401A directly from Keysight about a year and a half ago and had no problem at all.  Are you ordering and want to be "billed"?  That's the only reason that I can think of that might cause them to want your corporate information.  I've been buying parts from them for the past 37 years and having them sent directly to my home and I always paid by a personal credit card even when the part was for corporate use and I've never had any problem getting parts from HP, Agilent, Keysight. I have ordered meter handles that cost $7 and change but they always shipped everything to me by Fedex overnight shipping!  That alone generally cost about $30 even for a small item.

[gslick]

I've ordered parts and accessories from Keysight directly and bought a couple of meters from different retailers plus Keysight's eBay store.  It might be worth calling Keysight's office in Germany and speaking to them directly.

In the past replacement parts could be bought directly from Agilent in the US, ordered and paid for online through their replacements parts page, as an individual.

https://www.keysight.com/my/fapHomePage

Sometime in the last few years that changed. Anyone can register for an online Keysight account, but then you need to go though an additional authorization process to add the replacement parts purchasing capability to the online account. That needs to be done using a business address and email account, not a personal email account. There is some level of verification that it is a valid business address and email account.

I tried to get an online Keysight account authorized for replacement parts purchasing online as an individual last year and was unable to do so. I ended up calling their parts number on the phone and taking to a human to successfully place the order. At the time I didn't try talking to the human about getting the online replacement parts capability added to my account, maybe that is something they could do if you talked to a human on the phone about it.

Since when?  I last ordered parts for a HP 34401A directly from Keysight about a year and a half ago and had no problem at all.  Are you ordering and want to be "billed"?  That's the only reason that I can think of that might cause them to want your corporate information.

If you sign in to your Keysight account and go to your profile page, does your account have the "US Parts Online Store" capability?

https://www.keysight.com/my/updateProfilePage

The "US Parts Online Store" capability appears to be necessary to order parts online. Without that capability I can go to the parts page and add parts to my cart, but the link to checkout is greyed out.

The last time I tried to add the "US Parts Online Store" capability to my Keysight account that request was denied. I forget the exact reason I was given. Something about their privacy policy not allowing the use of personal email and shipping addresses.

I just submitted another request to add that capability. I'll see if that requests gets approved this time, or denied again, and if so, what explanation is given.

[2N3055]

  Since when?  I last ordered parts for a HP 34401A directly from Keysight about a year and a half ago and had no problem at all.  Are you ordering and want to be "billed"?  That's the only reason that I can think of that might cause them to want your corporate information.  I've been buying parts from them for the past 37 years and having them sent directly to my home and I always paid by a personal credit card even when the part was for corporate use and I've never had any problem getting parts from HP, Agilent, Keysight. I have ordered meter handles that cost $7 and change but they always shipped everything to me by Fedex overnight shipping!  That alone generally cost about $30 even for a small item.

Few months ago Keysight changed their whole online site to some other architecture.
It's a horrifying mess of modern looks and no function. Most of outside links are broken, and now most of the documentation is behind spamwall ( you need to fill personal info form to be able to download documents). All that despite me being logged in with a valid account...

They also expunged all legacy documents and software...

[gslick]

I just submitted another request to add that capability. I'll see if that requests gets approved this time, or denied again, and if so, what explanation is given.

My request to add the "US Parts Online Store" capability to my Keysight account was denied again. The reason given was that the email address associated with my Keysight account does not match the company name associated with my Keysight account.

The domain name for the email address associated with my Keysight account is the domain name for my ISP. The company name is a unique name that I have used for years whenever a company name is a required field for account registration at technology vendors, but there has never been any legal registration of that company name anywhere. When this request was denied the previous time I tried I then took the step of registering a domain name that matched the company name and registered a new Keysight account using an email address with the domain name that matched the company name. The request to add the "US Parts Online Store" capability to that account was also denied. I'll have to see if I still have the email response for that request. I forget if the explanation given was due to the shipping address appearing to be a residential address, or the named company not appearing to be real with an online presence anywhere. Previously I just gave up at that point and called up their parts department and talked to a human on the phone to place the parts order as an individual not associated with a company.

I suppose I should try following up again and instead of trying to register as a company that does not really exist, I should see if I can get access to the "US Parts Online Store" capability as an individual for personal use. Although I could get by placing parts orders on the phone in the infrequent times I need parts, I would much rather avoid using the phone unless there is no other option.

Subject: We're Sorry - Keysight Parts Online Store Registration Declined

Thank you for registering with the Parts Online Store system.

Access to the Parts Online Store system requires that the email address used for registration be your company email address. We request this to help protect user privacy and insure that order information for your company remains confidential. It does not appear that your email address in your registration matches your company name therefore we are unable to finalize your registration.

User login: xxx@yyy.com
Company: zzz

Please register again using an email address from your company. Or, respond to this email with information that the email address you registered with is actually your company email address at which time we will re-evaluate your registration.  Alternatively, you can submit Feedback  if you would like more detail or believe there has been a mistake.

Sincerely,

Keysight Technologies

[Elasia]

At the end of the day... message received.. if you arent big bucks $$$ we dont want to deal with you anymore.. go away.

Really though usually this level of gateway bs is nothing any US LLC cant handle

1. Buy domain and get the email forwarded
2. Form 1 man LLC
3. Get Fed Tax ID

4. Talk up any sales person you want with impunity
5.
6. Profit

On another note if you have ever entered for the keysight giveaways every spring... ever notice you are forced to enter a company name these days?

Also if your activities can be classified as business you can pair off the income/spend and get tax breaks... anything i make under the company.. just spend it expanding said company and not pay income tax on it

[gslick]

At the end of the day... message received.. if you arent big bucks $$$ we dont want to deal with you anymore.. go away.

Really though usually this level of gateway bs is nothing any US LLC cant handle

1. Buy domain and get the email forwarded
2. Form 1 man LLC
3. Get Fed Tax ID

4. Talk up any sales person you want with impunity
5.
6. Profit

I went as far as Step 1. I registered a domain name that matched my "company" name, and registered a new Keysight account with an email address from that domain name. That wasn't sufficient.

Maybe taking the next step in creating an LLC (one time fee of $200 just for filing to do that locally) with that company name would help, although there still might be issues with having a residential billing and shipping address.

I found an old email from when that request was denied. That was 2.5 years ago already. Didn't think it was that long ago. I should revisit this again and see if a human there can bypass their automated screening checks which validate company information and allow online access to parts ordering for a personal account.

Hello <my name>,

Thanks for your interest shown in ordering through Keysight Parts Online Store.

We have checked your registration request and found that the Bill To & Ship To [<my address>] address provided in the request seems to be a residential address and your email domain can’t be verified with company (<my "company" name>).

In order to get access to the Parts Online Store, system requires that Bill To & Ship To address used for registration should be a valid company address along with valid company name. We request this to help protect user privacy and insure that order information for your company remains confidential.

Therefore, we would like to request you to please provide us valid company Bill To & Ship To address along with valid company name, so that we can approve your registration request for Keysight Parts Online Store.

Your prompt action is highly appreciated!

[YetAnotherTechie]

Maybe
https://www.euronews.com/2021/03/01/eu-law-requires-companies-to-fix-electronic-goods-for-up-to-10-years
is to blame?
Consumer warranties like the normal 2 years don't apply to bussiness equipment, and this new legislation may be an extension to that.

[Stray Electron]

I've ordered parts and accessories from Keysight directly and bought a couple of meters from different retailers plus Keysight's eBay store.  It might be worth calling Keysight's office in Germany and speaking to them directly.

In the past replacement parts could be bought directly from Agilent in the US, ordered and paid for online through their replacements parts page, as an individual.

https://www.keysight.com/my/fapHomePage

Sometime in the last few years that changed. Anyone can register for an online Keysight account, but then you need to go though an additional authorization process to add the replacement parts purchasing capability to the online account. That needs to be done using a business address and email account, not a personal email account. There is some level of verification that it is a valid business address and email account.

I tried to get an online Keysight account authorized for replacement parts purchasing online as an individual last year and was unable to do so. I ended up calling their parts number on the phone and taking to a human to successfully place the order. At the time I didn't try talking to the human about getting the online replacement parts capability added to my account, maybe that is something they could do if you talked to a human on the phone about it.

Since when?  I last ordered parts for a HP 34401A directly from Keysight about a year and a half ago and had no problem at all.  Are you ordering and want to be "billed"?  That's the only reason that I can think of that might cause them to want your corporate information.

If you sign in to your Keysight account and go to your profile page, does your account have the "US Parts Online Store" capability?

https://www.keysight.com/my/updateProfilePage

The "US Parts Online Store" capability appears to be necessary to order parts online. Without that capability I can go to the parts page and add parts to my cart, but the link to checkout is greyed out.

The last time I tried to add the "US Parts Online Store" capability to my Keysight account that request was denied. I forget the exact reason I was given. Something about their privacy policy not allowing the use of personal email and shipping addresses.

I just submitted another request to add that capability. I'll see if that requests gets approved this time, or denied again, and if so, what explanation is given.

Gslick,

   Sorry, I lost track of this thread and never replied to your reply.  I don't have an account with HP, etc. I've never had one even though I've specified probably 500 thousand dollars of equipment from them over the years. I just pick up the phone and call them and give them the PN of what I want and a CC # and an address and they send the part. But as I said, I haven't ordered anything from them in probably 2+ years. But it sounds like the non-registered customers are getting better service from them than the ones like you that are registered! But I can't imagine why unless the orders are being handled by two different groups within HP and one group isn't as effective as they should be.

[gslick]

   Sorry, I lost track of this thread and never replied to your reply.  I don't have an account with HP, etc. I've never had one even though I've specified probably 500 thousand dollars of equipment from them over the years. I just pick up the phone and call them and give them the PN of what I want and a CC # and an address and they send the part.

Yes, that worked for me the last time I needed parts a year or so ago. I called them up on the phone and talked to a human to give them a list of part numbers, a credit card number, and the shipping/billing address. There was a minor snag in that they didn't collect all of the necessary information during the first call. They had to call me back and leave a voicemail that they needed one more bit of information they forgot to collect, and then I had to call them back to supply that. Then I did get the parts I needed shipped to me.

The only real annoyance is that I would prefer to do all of the ordering online. That's just easier and quicker and less hassle for me. I used to be able to do that in the past, but now I can't order online, only over the phone.

[Prime]

So I can think of one reason for restrictions on the sale to consumers. A few years back when we bought a number of keysight meters, we were required to provide proof that we were not going to use them for military purposes. They were bought through RS components.

With all the additional ITAR restrictions and the growing blacklist on exports to China, many organisations are getting fussier about the end user and it's much harder to prove that private users aren't exporting the stuff if they get audited...

My 2 cents

[BeBuLamar]

The only thing I can see a ban on selling Keysight multimeters to individuals doing is creating Fluke customers, and I don't think Keysight wants to send business over to the competition.

Sorry I don't understand this part. How selling to individuals is creating Fluke customers?

[25 CPS]

The only thing I can see a ban on selling Keysight multimeters to individuals doing is creating Fluke customers, and I don't think Keysight wants to send business over to the competition.

Sorry I don't understand this part. How selling to individuals is creating Fluke customers?

If Keysight won't sell to individuals and Fluke will then that's where individuals will go.  If it isn't Fluke, it'll be another company that'll sell to them.

[Fungus]

I'm pretty sure the Chinese military are capable of setting up a fake company or two to buy Keysight gear.

I'm also 100% sure they can operate without any Keysight gear at all.

[Neutrion]

Well, I can think of serveral reasons not to sell expensive gear via online shopping/mail order to individuals: Due to german laws, any supplier is required to take back any order without given reason within 14 days. So it is not uncommon that people order expensive stuff like cameras, go to vacation and return the stuff in time- so the seller has lots of hassle doing the return and can sell the gear only for reduced price to the next buyer.
Some shops that do photographic gear list the expensive cameras in their shop, but claim that first-time-buyers need some personal demonstration in the store before buying to protect against this kind of customers.

But this would only explain why gear above some magic mark would be affected, maybe the oscilloscopes and bench DMMs etc.- the handheld DMMs are quite cheap compared to the rest...

Or lots of untrained wannabes create lots of hassle within support, so they try to cut them off...

One of the few areas excluded from this are test eqipment.
Although I can imagine some people from this forum who buys an expensive R&S scope, goes on holiday with the scope instead of family, and than returns the scope (and keeps the best memories in life), but these guys are not so common.

[jkostb]

I bought last week a Keysight DMM 34465A. I experienced firmware issues (i.e.  firmware crashes). I had contacted Keysight contact center for help. Unfortunately they will not give any support if you don't have a bussiness account (company must be registered). I am planning to return the Keysight DMM. You can buy keysight equipment from Batronix, Batterfly etc as private person. Problems however start when you need service/support from Keysight. As private person you get no support, but you can by their products through their offical distributors as private person. A really strange policy. I will never take Keysight products again into consideration. I am a professional electronic engineer. As you can understand this decision will also influence when I need to buy equipment for my company....

I want to share this, and hope that other eevblog members will not get into same problems.

[J-R]

Different customers and markets cost different amounts of money to support.  Seems reasonable for them to make decisions based on that.

[ejeffrey]

The only thing I can see a ban on selling Keysight multimeters to individuals doing is creating Fluke customers, and I don't think Keysight wants to send business over to the competition.

Sorry I don't understand this part. How selling to individuals is creating Fluke customers?

If Keysight won't sell to individuals and Fluke will then that's where individuals will go.  If it isn't Fluke, it'll be another company that'll sell to them.

The number of individuals buying brand new keysight equipment from an authorized distributor but are not able/willing to set up a business account is very likely a rounding error in their bottom line.  Not that they wouldn't like to have the money from those handful of customers but it wouldn't take much of a hassle to make them just not do it.  Just to name a few reasons: support cost, returns, warranty requirements, tax status, export requirements, safety, and EMI are all reasons why they might decided it isn't worth the effort to support a vanishingly small part of their business.

It might be a regulatory / compliance issue but it certainly isn't a ban on test equipment as many other manufacturers don't do this.  It is Keysight deciding that it isn't worth the effort.

[nctnico]

I bought last week a Keysight DMM 34465A. I experienced firmware issues (i.e.  firmware crashes). I had contacted Keysight contact center for help. Unfortunately they will not give any support if you don't have a bussiness account (company must be registered). I am planning to return the Keysight DMM. You can buy keysight equipment from Batronix, Batterfly etc as private person. Problems however start when you need service/support from Keysight. As private person you get no support, but you can by their products through their offical distributors as private person. A really strange policy.

No, not at all. As has been explained before your point of contact is the distributor. The manufacturers allow them to make a profit margin and in return the distributors must provide support for the equipment they sell. Or are you taking your car to the manufacturer instead of the dealer if you have a problem with it?

[jeremy]

FWIW Keysight will not give you support now even if you are a business customer (I am). You need to pay a subscription for any support at all: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysightcare-you-now-need-a-paid-subscription-to-ask-simple-questions/msg3729391/#msg3729391

[rodpp]

The only thing I can see a ban on selling Keysight multimeters to individuals doing is creating Fluke customers, and I don't think Keysight wants to send business over to the competition.

Sorry I don't understand this part. How selling to individuals is creating Fluke customers?

If Keysight won't sell to individuals and Fluke will then that's where individuals will go.  If it isn't Fluke, it'll be another company that'll sell to them.

The number of individuals buying brand new keysight equipment from an authorized distributor but are not able/willing to set up a business account is very likely a rounding error in their bottom line.  Not that they wouldn't like to have the money from those handful of customers but it wouldn't take much of a hassle to make them just not do it.  Just to name a few reasons: support cost, returns, warranty requirements, tax status, export requirements, safety, and EMI are all reasons why they might decided it isn't worth the effort to support a vanishingly small part of their business.

It might be a regulatory / compliance issue but it certainly isn't a ban on test equipment as many other manufacturers don't do this.  It is Keysight deciding that it isn't worth the effort.

I understand this point of view. But there is other side too, much of these individuals are engineering or other technical professional that have a good possibility to work (having influence on techinical decisions) in a company that buys test equipment. And familiarity and brand identification is a factor when choosing new equipments to buy.

For us hobbyist this behavior is very bad, if all brands are going in this direction...

[Zucca]

FWIW Keysight will not give you support now even if you are a business customer (I am). You need to pay a subscription for any support at all: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysightcare-you-now-need-a-paid-subscription-to-ask-simple-questions/msg3729391/#msg3729391

Holy shit.

[2N3055]

FWIW Keysight will not give you support now even if you are a business customer (I am). You need to pay a subscription for any support at all: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysightcare-you-now-need-a-paid-subscription-to-ask-simple-questions/msg3729391/#msg3729391

This is what I have been saying last few months. If you have problems with scope you bought, take it to the point of sale (distributor you bought it from). Private or business.
There is no support for end customer without support contract. It is not clear where the f*** you can report a bug if you find one.

[Fungus]

Different customers and markets cost different amounts of money to support.  Seems reasonable for them to make decisions based on that.

"Businesses" are also capable of only buying a single device.

Anybody who buys Keysight for home use probably has plenty of contacts in the industry, the amount of Bad Will generated by this surely isn't worth it.

[HKJ]

The number of individuals buying brand new keysight equipment from an authorized distributor but are not able/willing to set up a business account is very likely a rounding error in their bottom line.

If that was the case it would not cost them anything to support individuals.
What they do now is basically telling individuals that they can just as well buy something from China, the support will be the same.
This may give Keysight a problem in a couple of years when the young hobby people need to buy equipment for their company: They know the Chinese stuff, but they do not know the Keysight stuff.

[2N3055]

The number of individuals buying brand new keysight equipment from an authorized distributor but are not able/willing to set up a business account is very likely a rounding error in their bottom line.

If that was the case it would not cost them anything to support individuals.
What they do now is basically telling individuals that they can just as well buy something from China, the support will be the same.
This may give Keysight a problem in a couple of years when the young hobby people need to buy equipment for their company: They know the Chinese stuff, but they do not know the Keysight stuff.

That doesn't make the Keysight support same as Chinese support. There is no Chinese or American or German support.
There is Tektronix support, Keysight support or R&S support VS. Rigol support or Siglent support or Owon support....

And as it is now Rigol or Siglent support (while not superb at times) actually exists. Sometimes they do very good job. Sometimes it might take bit of effort but support is there.
It is obvious they are still learning some details, but there is effort and progress.

Unlike Keysight that ACTIVELY REFUSES support... They can give you excellent support (we know they can) but refuse to because you don't matter.

Which gets us back to why do you pay premium prices for their products. Many low end and mid range  A brand products are not better in specs than good products from B tier. Some are even inferior in many respects. Well, so far, popular answer was that you pay for quality and support. Quality is not an issue anymore, most B brands products lately reached same quality level as A brands. And support.. Well that is exactly the point.. It is not even about whether Keysight is giving good or bad support worth the extra money. It is about "Chinese" giving support and Keysight giving none.

Does that mean Keysight products should be now much cheaper than Rigol or Siglent or Micsig or GW Iinstek. 
Support part built in price of device is not included in device scope of delivery anymore..
Because those B tier devices are most of the time MORE capable AND the have infinitely better support (divide by zero problem).. Are they A brands now in that market segment?

Ruminate on that...

[xrunner]

Why does Keysight have a store on Ebay where any schmuck like me can buy their equipment? 

http://www.ebaystores.com/keysight

[mawyatt]

In the past HP/AG/KS was always considered as top notch. The instruments they provided were always way better than specs, and they lasted well beyond any reasonable expected lifetime. I mean, just look at the old HP34401A DMM!! This is exactly why when I needed a precision DMM we went with the KS34465A, didn't even consider anything else, and not disappointed as it's a superb DMM and shows some of the old DNA from the HP34401A.

When we needed another precision DMM with verifiable performance we looked to the KS34465A again, but they were not in stock. Over the course of a few months the issues folks are reporting with KS regarding customer service & support has raised concern and we became hesitant to purchase another KS34465A. So hesitant in fact we just purchased the Keithley DMM6500 since it became available before any of the KS34465As.

To put this in perspective, I've never used any Keithley instruments in my entire career, and somewhat reluctant to purchase and rely on a precision DMM from an unknown to me source such as Keithley. This instrument will be utilized for various precision measurements on an involved on-going project and likely will be recommended as the baseline support equipment which may lead to many DMMs & other instruments being procured by others involved.

Suspect the posture of KS today is a result of the short term mentality of most US companies, driven by Wall St. expectations and not the result of what the important KS technical folks would prefer.

Guess the KS folks in control now don't know the story behind when a young boy got the telephone book out and found Bill Hewlett's number. He called and asked for help getting components to build an oscillator. This young boy wasn't from a major company (yet), wasn't even in high school, but Mr Hewlett provided help and support. Don't think this could happen today from what folks are reporting about KS service & support policy, but I'm sure some folks within KS would do the same as Bill Hewlett if allowed. BTW that young boy was Steve Jobs!!!

Best,

[MT]

Does that mean Keysight products should be now much cheaper than Rigol or Siglent or Micsig or GW Iinstek. 
Support part built in price of device is not included in device scope of delivery anymore..
Because those B tier devices are most of the time MORE capable AND the have infinitely better support (divide by zero problem).. Are they A brands now in that market segment?

Ruminate on that...

Ruminate and ruminate! Weeeeel why not just boycott Keysight!

[DavidKo]

Maybe it is even simple. Probably they have outsourced everything to "cheaper" countries and now they do not have stuff to support anyone (like supporting the basic scopes which are only rebranded Chinese one). When the distributor (mostly additional cost to the repair) need to "repair" (instead repairing it) the device they prefer exchange of the whole board instead replacing one part - they will get more money (maybe the idea of someone from Wall street). That is bad for second hand market - the first time owner will have it longer time instead replacing it with new device. That is the main reason why EU pushes their "repair policy" and producers which can go around are doing that by selling only to businesses together with payed service.

[mubes]

Could this be a FCC 15.3.c restriction due to their approvals, or some European equivalent thereof? For information, that clause provides an exemption for

Digital devices used EXCLUSIVELY as industrial test equipment, commercial test equipment, or medical test equipment.  “Test equipment” includes devices used for maintenance, research, evaluation, simulation, and other analytical or scientific applications, in areas such as industrial plants, public utilities, hospitals, universities, laboratories, automotive service centers, and electronics repair shops.  Devices designed for home use, such as consumer blood pressure meters, bathroom scales, and digital thermometers, do not fall under this exemption.  

I think there's some wiggle-room under 'designed for' home use, but I can imagine legal types not wanting the gun, rather than having to dodge a bullet.

[rsjsouza]

Industrial and lab use equipment always had many exemptions, especially towards specific aspects of EMI/EMC and safety. Either something changed recently on the compliance or is simply having a more stringent enforcement lately. I can't help but wonder if Keysight's and other T&M manufacturer's giveaways in the recent years have anything to do with it, but I can only speculate.

Regarding support and availability, as others have said this is a return to older times where private individuals always had a hard time to purchase them and almost zero post-sales support, apart from your typical warranty terms. Sure, this is not the 80's anymore and there'll be brands willing to fill this void with an already powerful point of sales (the internet).

[nctnico]

The number of individuals buying brand new keysight equipment from an authorized distributor but are not able/willing to set up a business account is very likely a rounding error in their bottom line.

If that was the case it would not cost them anything to support individuals.
What they do now is basically telling individuals that they can just as well buy something from China, the support will be the same.
This may give Keysight a problem in a couple of years when the young hobby people need to buy equipment for their company: They know the Chinese stuff, but they do not know the Keysight stuff.

That doesn't make the Keysight support same as Chinese support. There is no Chinese or American or German support.
There is Tektronix support, Keysight support or R&S support VS. Rigol support or Siglent support or Owon support....

And as it is now Rigol or Siglent support (while not superb at times) actually exists. Sometimes they do very good job. Sometimes it might take bit of effort but support is there.
It is obvious they are still learning some details, but there is effort and progress.

Unlike Keysight that ACTIVELY REFUSES support... They can give you excellent support (we know they can) but refuse to because you don't matter.

Which gets us back to why do you pay premium prices for their products. Many low end and mid range  A brand products are not better in specs than good products from B tier. Some are even inferior in many respects. Well, so far, popular answer was that you pay for quality and support. Quality is not an issue anymore, most B brands products lately reached same quality level as A brands. And support.. Well that is exactly the point.. It is not even about whether Keysight is giving good or bad support worth the extra money. It is about "Chinese" giving support and Keysight giving none.

Since when is Siglent giving support directly? All their support goes through their distribution channels. Now Keysight is doing the exact same thing and the world is about to end  according to some

[hpw]

@nctnico: Since when is Siglent giving support directly? All their support goes through their distribution channels. Now Keysight is doing the exact same thing and the world is about to end  according to some

Look, I have an issue on SDG2K modulation generator. Talking (even WhatsApp) direct to the German Siglent engineer.
He does what he can and no more, only to offer sending the generator back while it covers not the given spec's. Also it looks like that the build in FPGA size is limited so only one channel with modulation possible. So a special FW is required.

After x month,  I asked for urgent channel, while he is within the sandwich  ...

While Siglent it looks like as a diy shop, even no internal tracking or incidence NR.... simple email sharing with the given Asian land  

For Keysight with an ebay shop, to deliver xx..xxxk$ gear with one month warranty  so one will be prepared for trouble 

 

 

[mawyatt]

Since when is Siglent giving support directly? All their support goes through their distribution channels.

When we decided to purchase our first Siglent product awhile back, we decided on the SDS2102X+ (wanted a 4 channel but those were BO). Soon after receiving it from US distributer Saelig we had an "accident" (long painful story), where a liquid was spilled into the back vent openings!!

We needed to remove the case and completely clean the entire scope of the residue, including the all the panel buttons. This required removing a front label that covers the input area and in doing so the label was damaged.

With some guidance an email was sent to Siglent NA and soon a replacement label was received thanks to Jason at Siglent NA. Think this qualifies as direct support

BYW, the scope was reassembled and working perfectly ever since

Also should report that on the Power Supply issue (current limit offset) with a SDP3303X-E which was again not Siglent's fault, we have not benefitted from any factory support, actually still waiting.

So the Good, Bad and waiting on the Ugly

Best,

[Fungus]

@nctnico: Since when is Siglent giving support directly? All their support goes through their distribution channels. Now Keysight is doing the exact same thing and the world is about to end  according to some

It's a step down for Keysight. They used to do it, now they suddenly don't.

Keysight is also regarded as an "A" grade player in the marketplace, up there with Fluke, Tektronix, etc. Siglent isn't, Siglent is just a Chinese wannabe brand to many people.

[mawyatt]

Keysight is also regarded as an "A" grade player in the marketplace, up there with Fluke, Tektronix, etc. Siglent isn't, Siglent is just a Chinese wannabe brand to many people.

Don't think I would consider Micsig, Siglent, Rigol or GK Instek as Chinese/Taiwan wannabes, Owon maybe. Many of the "A" grade players utilize the "B" grade players to supplement their portfolio. LeCroy uses Siglent, think Keysight uses Rigol and I'm sure some others use these "B" level sources. Point being, these "B" grade players serve the lower/middle class instruments quite well, wether directly or thru an "A" grade, so they are important and allow many of us to include equipment in our labs that we would not have the privilege of owning without some very deep pockets.

Also don't think any of these companies are even remotely thinking of moving into the "A" territory, since this would require R&D budgets likely beyond their means. However, I'm sure they are actively filling out the middle class instrument territory which is constantly moving upwards since the leading edge is moving forward and "stretching" the mid-range instrument performance coverage.

Best,