Keysight products not to be sold to private customers?

[jeremy]

FWIW Keysight will not give you support now even if you are a business customer (I am). You need to pay a subscription for any support at all: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysightcare-you-now-need-a-paid-subscription-to-ask-simple-questions/msg3729391/#msg3729391

[rodpp]

The only thing I can see a ban on selling Keysight multimeters to individuals doing is creating Fluke customers, and I don't think Keysight wants to send business over to the competition.

Sorry I don't understand this part. How selling to individuals is creating Fluke customers?

If Keysight won't sell to individuals and Fluke will then that's where individuals will go.  If it isn't Fluke, it'll be another company that'll sell to them.

The number of individuals buying brand new keysight equipment from an authorized distributor but are not able/willing to set up a business account is very likely a rounding error in their bottom line.  Not that they wouldn't like to have the money from those handful of customers but it wouldn't take much of a hassle to make them just not do it.  Just to name a few reasons: support cost, returns, warranty requirements, tax status, export requirements, safety, and EMI are all reasons why they might decided it isn't worth the effort to support a vanishingly small part of their business.

It might be a regulatory / compliance issue but it certainly isn't a ban on test equipment as many other manufacturers don't do this.  It is Keysight deciding that it isn't worth the effort.

I understand this point of view. But there is other side too, much of these individuals are engineering or other technical professional that have a good possibility to work (having influence on techinical decisions) in a company that buys test equipment. And familiarity and brand identification is a factor when choosing new equipments to buy.

For us hobbyist this behavior is very bad, if all brands are going in this direction...

[Zucca]

FWIW Keysight will not give you support now even if you are a business customer (I am). You need to pay a subscription for any support at all: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysightcare-you-now-need-a-paid-subscription-to-ask-simple-questions/msg3729391/#msg3729391

Holy shit.

[2N3055]

FWIW Keysight will not give you support now even if you are a business customer (I am). You need to pay a subscription for any support at all: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysightcare-you-now-need-a-paid-subscription-to-ask-simple-questions/msg3729391/#msg3729391

This is what I have been saying last few months. If you have problems with scope you bought, take it to the point of sale (distributor you bought it from). Private or business.
There is no support for end customer without support contract. It is not clear where the f*** you can report a bug if you find one.

[Fungus]

Different customers and markets cost different amounts of money to support.  Seems reasonable for them to make decisions based on that.

"Businesses" are also capable of only buying a single device.

Anybody who buys Keysight for home use probably has plenty of contacts in the industry, the amount of Bad Will generated by this surely isn't worth it.

[HKJ]

The number of individuals buying brand new keysight equipment from an authorized distributor but are not able/willing to set up a business account is very likely a rounding error in their bottom line.

If that was the case it would not cost them anything to support individuals.
What they do now is basically telling individuals that they can just as well buy something from China, the support will be the same.
This may give Keysight a problem in a couple of years when the young hobby people need to buy equipment for their company: They know the Chinese stuff, but they do not know the Keysight stuff.

[2N3055]

The number of individuals buying brand new keysight equipment from an authorized distributor but are not able/willing to set up a business account is very likely a rounding error in their bottom line.

If that was the case it would not cost them anything to support individuals.
What they do now is basically telling individuals that they can just as well buy something from China, the support will be the same.
This may give Keysight a problem in a couple of years when the young hobby people need to buy equipment for their company: They know the Chinese stuff, but they do not know the Keysight stuff.

That doesn't make the Keysight support same as Chinese support. There is no Chinese or American or German support.
There is Tektronix support, Keysight support or R&S support VS. Rigol support or Siglent support or Owon support....

And as it is now Rigol or Siglent support (while not superb at times) actually exists. Sometimes they do very good job. Sometimes it might take bit of effort but support is there.
It is obvious they are still learning some details, but there is effort and progress.

Unlike Keysight that ACTIVELY REFUSES support... They can give you excellent support (we know they can) but refuse to because you don't matter.

Which gets us back to why do you pay premium prices for their products. Many low end and mid range  A brand products are not better in specs than good products from B tier. Some are even inferior in many respects. Well, so far, popular answer was that you pay for quality and support. Quality is not an issue anymore, most B brands products lately reached same quality level as A brands. And support.. Well that is exactly the point.. It is not even about whether Keysight is giving good or bad support worth the extra money. It is about "Chinese" giving support and Keysight giving none.

Does that mean Keysight products should be now much cheaper than Rigol or Siglent or Micsig or GW Iinstek. 
Support part built in price of device is not included in device scope of delivery anymore..
Because those B tier devices are most of the time MORE capable AND the have infinitely better support (divide by zero problem).. Are they A brands now in that market segment?

Ruminate on that...

[xrunner]

Why does Keysight have a store on Ebay where any schmuck like me can buy their equipment? 

http://www.ebaystores.com/keysight

[mawyatt]

In the past HP/AG/KS was always considered as top notch. The instruments they provided were always way better than specs, and they lasted well beyond any reasonable expected lifetime. I mean, just look at the old HP34401A DMM!! This is exactly why when I needed a precision DMM we went with the KS34465A, didn't even consider anything else, and not disappointed as it's a superb DMM and shows some of the old DNA from the HP34401A.

When we needed another precision DMM with verifiable performance we looked to the KS34465A again, but they were not in stock. Over the course of a few months the issues folks are reporting with KS regarding customer service & support has raised concern and we became hesitant to purchase another KS34465A. So hesitant in fact we just purchased the Keithley DMM6500 since it became available before any of the KS34465As.

To put this in perspective, I've never used any Keithley instruments in my entire career, and somewhat reluctant to purchase and rely on a precision DMM from an unknown to me source such as Keithley. This instrument will be utilized for various precision measurements on an involved on-going project and likely will be recommended as the baseline support equipment which may lead to many DMMs & other instruments being procured by others involved.

Suspect the posture of KS today is a result of the short term mentality of most US companies, driven by Wall St. expectations and not the result of what the important KS technical folks would prefer.

Guess the KS folks in control now don't know the story behind when a young boy got the telephone book out and found Bill Hewlett's number. He called and asked for help getting components to build an oscillator. This young boy wasn't from a major company (yet), wasn't even in high school, but Mr Hewlett provided help and support. Don't think this could happen today from what folks are reporting about KS service & support policy, but I'm sure some folks within KS would do the same as Bill Hewlett if allowed. BTW that young boy was Steve Jobs!!!

Best,

[MT]

Does that mean Keysight products should be now much cheaper than Rigol or Siglent or Micsig or GW Iinstek. 
Support part built in price of device is not included in device scope of delivery anymore..
Because those B tier devices are most of the time MORE capable AND the have infinitely better support (divide by zero problem).. Are they A brands now in that market segment?

Ruminate on that...

Ruminate and ruminate! Weeeeel why not just boycott Keysight!

[DavidKo]

Maybe it is even simple. Probably they have outsourced everything to "cheaper" countries and now they do not have stuff to support anyone (like supporting the basic scopes which are only rebranded Chinese one). When the distributor (mostly additional cost to the repair) need to "repair" (instead repairing it) the device they prefer exchange of the whole board instead replacing one part - they will get more money (maybe the idea of someone from Wall street). That is bad for second hand market - the first time owner will have it longer time instead replacing it with new device. That is the main reason why EU pushes their "repair policy" and producers which can go around are doing that by selling only to businesses together with payed service.

[mubes]

Could this be a FCC 15.3.c restriction due to their approvals, or some European equivalent thereof? For information, that clause provides an exemption for

Digital devices used EXCLUSIVELY as industrial test equipment, commercial test equipment, or medical test equipment.  “Test equipment” includes devices used for maintenance, research, evaluation, simulation, and other analytical or scientific applications, in areas such as industrial plants, public utilities, hospitals, universities, laboratories, automotive service centers, and electronics repair shops.  Devices designed for home use, such as consumer blood pressure meters, bathroom scales, and digital thermometers, do not fall under this exemption.  

I think there's some wiggle-room under 'designed for' home use, but I can imagine legal types not wanting the gun, rather than having to dodge a bullet.

[rsjsouza]

Industrial and lab use equipment always had many exemptions, especially towards specific aspects of EMI/EMC and safety. Either something changed recently on the compliance or is simply having a more stringent enforcement lately. I can't help but wonder if Keysight's and other T&M manufacturer's giveaways in the recent years have anything to do with it, but I can only speculate.

Regarding support and availability, as others have said this is a return to older times where private individuals always had a hard time to purchase them and almost zero post-sales support, apart from your typical warranty terms. Sure, this is not the 80's anymore and there'll be brands willing to fill this void with an already powerful point of sales (the internet).

[nctnico]

The number of individuals buying brand new keysight equipment from an authorized distributor but are not able/willing to set up a business account is very likely a rounding error in their bottom line.

If that was the case it would not cost them anything to support individuals.
What they do now is basically telling individuals that they can just as well buy something from China, the support will be the same.
This may give Keysight a problem in a couple of years when the young hobby people need to buy equipment for their company: They know the Chinese stuff, but they do not know the Keysight stuff.

That doesn't make the Keysight support same as Chinese support. There is no Chinese or American or German support.
There is Tektronix support, Keysight support or R&S support VS. Rigol support or Siglent support or Owon support....

And as it is now Rigol or Siglent support (while not superb at times) actually exists. Sometimes they do very good job. Sometimes it might take bit of effort but support is there.
It is obvious they are still learning some details, but there is effort and progress.

Unlike Keysight that ACTIVELY REFUSES support... They can give you excellent support (we know they can) but refuse to because you don't matter.

Which gets us back to why do you pay premium prices for their products. Many low end and mid range  A brand products are not better in specs than good products from B tier. Some are even inferior in many respects. Well, so far, popular answer was that you pay for quality and support. Quality is not an issue anymore, most B brands products lately reached same quality level as A brands. And support.. Well that is exactly the point.. It is not even about whether Keysight is giving good or bad support worth the extra money. It is about "Chinese" giving support and Keysight giving none.

Since when is Siglent giving support directly? All their support goes through their distribution channels. Now Keysight is doing the exact same thing and the world is about to end  according to some

[hpw]

@nctnico: Since when is Siglent giving support directly? All their support goes through their distribution channels. Now Keysight is doing the exact same thing and the world is about to end  according to some

Look, I have an issue on SDG2K modulation generator. Talking (even WhatsApp) direct to the German Siglent engineer.
He does what he can and no more, only to offer sending the generator back while it covers not the given spec's. Also it looks like that the build in FPGA size is limited so only one channel with modulation possible. So a special FW is required.

After x month,  I asked for urgent channel, while he is within the sandwich  ...

While Siglent it looks like as a diy shop, even no internal tracking or incidence NR.... simple email sharing with the given Asian land  

For Keysight with an ebay shop, to deliver xx..xxxk$ gear with one month warranty  so one will be prepared for trouble 

 

 

[mawyatt]

Since when is Siglent giving support directly? All their support goes through their distribution channels.

When we decided to purchase our first Siglent product awhile back, we decided on the SDS2102X+ (wanted a 4 channel but those were BO). Soon after receiving it from US distributer Saelig we had an "accident" (long painful story), where a liquid was spilled into the back vent openings!!

We needed to remove the case and completely clean the entire scope of the residue, including the all the panel buttons. This required removing a front label that covers the input area and in doing so the label was damaged.

With some guidance an email was sent to Siglent NA and soon a replacement label was received thanks to Jason at Siglent NA. Think this qualifies as direct support

BYW, the scope was reassembled and working perfectly ever since

Also should report that on the Power Supply issue (current limit offset) with a SDP3303X-E which was again not Siglent's fault, we have not benefitted from any factory support, actually still waiting.

So the Good, Bad and waiting on the Ugly

Best,

[Fungus]

@nctnico: Since when is Siglent giving support directly? All their support goes through their distribution channels. Now Keysight is doing the exact same thing and the world is about to end  according to some

It's a step down for Keysight. They used to do it, now they suddenly don't.

Keysight is also regarded as an "A" grade player in the marketplace, up there with Fluke, Tektronix, etc. Siglent isn't, Siglent is just a Chinese wannabe brand to many people.

[mawyatt]

Keysight is also regarded as an "A" grade player in the marketplace, up there with Fluke, Tektronix, etc. Siglent isn't, Siglent is just a Chinese wannabe brand to many people.

Don't think I would consider Micsig, Siglent, Rigol or GK Instek as Chinese/Taiwan wannabes, Owon maybe. Many of the "A" grade players utilize the "B" grade players to supplement their portfolio. LeCroy uses Siglent, think Keysight uses Rigol and I'm sure some others use these "B" level sources. Point being, these "B" grade players serve the lower/middle class instruments quite well, wether directly or thru an "A" grade, so they are important and allow many of us to include equipment in our labs that we would not have the privilege of owning without some very deep pockets.

Also don't think any of these companies are even remotely thinking of moving into the "A" territory, since this would require R&D budgets likely beyond their means. However, I'm sure they are actively filling out the middle class instrument territory which is constantly moving upwards since the leading edge is moving forward and "stretching" the mid-range instrument performance coverage.

Best,