Keysight refusing warranty - DSOX3014A bought less than one month ago

[rodpp]

Hi!

I bought a brand new DSOX3014A and it seems defective, presenting a negative DC offset in all ranges, and it is not constant along the ranges.

I sent Keysight an e-mail asking for repair and they sent to me an "Diagnostic evaluation" quote, asking around USD170 (BRL637.76) only to verify what the problem is. After that "evaluation" they will send a quote for the repair.

I explained to then that the scope was under warranty, and asked if that service is not covered by the warranty.

Keysight replied saying that in "their system" the warranty is expired, and asking if I have an extended warranty.

So I replied saying that I do not have an extend warranty, and I sent the legal purchase document (fiscal invoice) with the purchase date (the purchase date is Jun 07, 2019). Then I asked if the warrant period doesn't starts at the purchase date.

They replied saying that I bought the equipment from Nortron (a brazilian company that sells TE) and not direct from Keysight. And that my warranty is expired, because Keysight sold the equipment to Nortron in 2011!



To me it is absurd! While the equipment was in the store stock the warranty counter was running... Only if I had bought the equipment in the day that it arrived at the store I would have the full 3 years warranty.

Of course this strange Keysight behavor has no support in brazilian law, I will try to solve this with US Keysight before taking another actions.

In the thread bellow, other brazilian member had a bad experience with Keysight and @"Keysight DanielBogdanoff" helped him to find a solution:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/oh-no!-i_m-never-buying-any-agilent-keysight-equiment-ever-again!/

So I am posting here to publicize this case and listen the point of view of another members, hoping that @Keysight DanielBogdanoff helps me.


Regards,
Rodrigo.

[TK]

You can check the warranty status online: https://service.keysight.com/infoline/public/generic-form.aspx?frm_name=$mobile$warranty-status

[rodpp]

It says expired... But I just bought the scope, brand new from a reputable brazilian store: http://www.nortronne.com.br/

[TK]

You can check the scope history, calibration certificate, if the scope had any service or repair, etc

[Mr. Scram]

What does Nortron say? It seems your agreement is with them and not Keysight. Keysight can provide additional manufacturer warranty, but they can also arbitrarily set the terms.

[rodpp]

The scope is brand new, I confirmed with Nortron. They only sells brand new equipments.

[TK]

It says expired... But I just bought the scope, brand new from a reputable brazilian store: http://www.nortronne.com.br/

Have you contacted the distributor?

[rodpp]

Yes, they said the scope is brand new, no doubts. They do not have another to replace, only a DSOX3012A (two channels). So I contacted Keysight to repair, as I need the 4 channels.

[Mr. Scram]

The scope is brand new, I confirmed with Nortron. They only sells brand new equipments.

That's not what I mean. By buying from Nortron you entered into an agreement with them. They seem to be the party that should provide warranty on their sale.

[TK]

The scope is brand new, I confirmed with Nortron. They only sells brand new equipments.

If they had this equipment since 2011, it is a new old stock, not brand new.  Anyway, you should be able to ask the distributor to contact Keysight to update the warranty information so it is covered as new.

[rodpp]

Ok, now I understand. I do not asked Nortron to contact Keysight to update the warranty information. I will do, thanks!

[TheSteve]

You might want to try a user calibration. It might need it after 8 years. What version of firmware did it have installed?

[rodpp]

Yes, probably a User Cal could fix this. But as the offset is much worse than specified, I want it to be checked properly.

And after that Keysight answer, I need to clarify my warranty status.

The firmware version is 01.00.2011011301.

[TK]

The firmware version is 01.00.2011011301.

This is a vintage unit!

[rodpp]

Here are some (15 units) more vintage ones: https://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/dsox3014a/oscilloscope-4-analog-100mhz-2gsps/dp/21T9287?st=dsox3014a

[TopLoser]

Here are some (15 units) more vintage ones: https://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/dsox3014a/oscilloscope-4-analog-100mhz-2gsps/dp/21T9287?st=dsox3014a

You really should be taking this up with Nortron.

You would have had much better support from Newark, they would have taken yours back and shipped you a replacement within days.

[rodpp]

I sent an e-mail to Nortron, as sugested above.

Yes, Newark should ship a replacement as it has 15 in stock. But there are at least two shortcomings:

1- The asked price is the same price of the DSOX3014T;
2- Farnell Brazil ended its operation in 2015.

[bdunham7]

Does your scope say Agilent or Keysight on the front??  Was the box completely sealed, all accessories still packaged, with an (now expired) certificate of calibration?

[rodpp]

It says Agilent on the front, it is a 2011 unit, before the name change.

The external box does not arrived sealed. I contacted Nortron and asked if it was a used or Demo unit, because they sold it as brand new. The answer was that it was sealed in their stock, but it was opened before shipment to verify if it was working. They justified this action saying that it was in their stock for a long time, and they checked if it was working before shipment (I live about 2.000Km from Nortron). Indeed it is a 2011 unit and I have no reasons to have doubts related to Nortron, as it is a reputable brazilian TE store.

The certificate of calibration arrived inside a sealed envelope . I opened it and its date is Feb 25, 2011. Expired, of course.

[Stray Electron]

  I think that we all agree that your issue is with Nortron and not with Keysight. I can't imagine buying a piece of 8 years old ANYTHING and being convinced that it was new and unused (and in an opened box!) and that the manufacturer should be required to honor a 1 year warranty.

[rodpp]

If someone buys one of the Newark units linked above, he can expect a full warranty from Keysight?

Here in Brazil we expect it, and the law support this expectation.

[bdunham7]

I'll assume from what you said that you were not anticipating getting an NOS/Open box Agilent, but rather a new, recently calibrated Keysight.  Is Norton an authorized Keysight distributor? I can understand the difficulties you have getting certain items where you are at--living in California we are certainly spoiled in that regard.  However, unless you have gotten some screaming deal (like half off on clearance) I think you have been ripped off.  Although I actually have visited the FGV Law School, I don't know anything about Brazilian consumer law nor about the reputation of Nortron (which, b/t/w, I don't see anywhere online).  However, in your shoes I'd be wanting my money back regardless of any service or calibration provided by either Keysight or Nortron.  Would you have purchased it in the first place if you knew it was 8 years old and opened? Yikes!

You would have to ask them, but I don't think Keysight starts the warranty period on wholesale purchase.   Most manufacturers here will consider the warranty to start at retail purchase or warranty registration, as long as it isn't too long after the manufacture date.  However, if no retail purchase or registration is recorded, the start date will revert to the manufacture date.  How long can they be expected to extend the warranty if the item sits in a warehouse for years on end?  I'm not sure, but 8 years seems like a long time.  OTOH, I'm sure they don't want an unhappy customer. I hope something good happens for you.

[bdunham7]

If someone buys one of the Newark units linked above, he can expect a full warranty from Keysight?

Here in Brazil we expect it, and the law support this expectation.

Newark is an authorized Keysight distributor and the units they have will be brand new, of recent manufacture and factory sealed.  And yes, Keysight will warranty them. 

[rodpp]

Thanks for your input.

Please, see the Nortron website: http://www.nortronne.com.br/

It is a reputable TE store here. I do not know if it is/was an authorized Keysight distributor.

I was not anticipating getting a recent calibrate Keysight unit, as the DSOX3000T was released a long time ago and certainly it was a long time in stock. But I was anticipating getting a brand new unit, with full warranty coverage.

[bdunham7]

I may be mistaken, but I think this is either a current model or was just recently discontinued? $4K or so is a lot of money for a 100MHz DSO and I'd be expecting a minty-fresh one with the latest firmware and a cal cert that was at least not expired by the time I got it. 

[rsjsouza]

Keysight's current list of distributors in Brasil does not mention Nortron:
https://www.keysight.com/main/partnerfinder.jspx?N=1+187629+187535&pageMode=PF&cc=US&lc=eng&tmprop=TM

Therefore, I suspect that is the main reason why they are not honoring the warranty.

Having worked in Brasil for years and dealing with this scenario multiple times, I can understand Keysight's position in this matter. They can't possibly know how Nortron stored and handled the equipment after the purchase which, from their standpoint, it was to a final customer and not to a reseller. Official distributors are bound by contract to handle equipment and parts according to the manufacturer's specifications and any issues are resolved among them and the manufacturer - the customer is usually spared of these discussions. 

There is also the scenario where Nortron may have been an official distributor at a certain point in time for Agilent - I've seen this happen in the past with NOS units sold years after the break of contract, only for the customer to be left hanging with the expenses of a regular repair.

That said, I have purchased NOS units from a former distributor of Keysight (a store called Fry's electronics) and they not only honored the warranty but updated it to my purchase date. But you must consider it is here in the US, where these things are much easier to settle than in Brasil.

All in all, the suggestion of others to take upon Nortron is the best one - they have spare units, they must honor the mandatory 90-day warranty period and, most important of all, keep the communications flowing at a civil pace with them. The worst scenario you want is to take up to the small claims court (juizado de pequenas causas).

Good luck!

I may be mistaken, but I think this is either a current model or was just recently discontinued? $4K or so is a lot of money for a 100MHz DSO and I'd be expecting a minty-fresh one with the latest firmware and a cal cert that was at least not expired by the time I got it.

Thanks to Brazilian customs office.

Well, thanks to Brazilian tax legislation vultures. Test equipment can benefit from lower import taxes, but very few do that for a lower value item such as this one (when I worked there, somewhere around US$2,000.00 used to be a practical threshold to dive into the rabbit hole of bureaucracy).
The simplified taxation is 60% + sales tax + IPI + COFINS + PIS, which easily doubles the cost of the equipment.

[BravoV]

Nothing to see here.

Its clear, the op bought a really-really old stock, even its new unused from a local vendor, probably the vendor "was" Keysight/Agilent official distributor in the past.

Probably the purchase price also with heavy discounted price too, as I don't believe the OP didn't know what is the current new supported model that is available "officially" from Keysight. 

There is nothing to complain as Keysight is not responsible for this kind of deal.

Pretty sure, the OP had done his home work by visiting Keysight's official web site and found out the "official" representative in their country, which is of course, if the purchase was done thru that legit channel suggested by Keysight, it will be really-really expensive.

The only thing to be done here is to sit down with that local vendor on this problem, Keysight is free from any responsibility, this is just a typical example of "grey market" deal.

[rodpp]

Thanks for all valuable inputs.

Yes, the price I paid was discounted. I paid around USD2000 for it expecting an old stock item, but brand new with full warranty coverage.

In fact, here in Brazil it is very dificult to buy good quality TE. Normally you need to pay at least 2 times the US prices and wait about 2 months to receive the equipment.

As good quality (expensive) TE are not easy to sell here, it is common to see some items listed for years and not sell. Because that, sometimes some very good offers appears when stores must clear some stock items. It was more common when Farnell/Newark was operating here, as they had bigger inventories.

But always, if you do a legal purchasing with a valid invoice (Nota Fiscal) you are good. The invoice date is the warranty reference date. By law the period must be at least 90 days + the seller/manufactures offer (3 years in this case).

This is the first time that I have this kind of problem with a regular purchase. As I have the legal invoice, the brazilian law guaranties my warranty period. And both the seller and the manufactures are held responsible for it.

Irrespective if the item had been stored for one day or 10 years before the sale, if it was sold it must comply with the consumer law.

[BravoV]

So I guess in a good faith and good manner, I guess you should rename this topic title (by editing the 1st post's title), as its mislead readers.

Bottom line, Keysight is innocent, don't you agree ? 

[rodpp]

No, as I said above, by law it is (together with the seller) held responsible for all equipment (legally) sold with their brand.

[BravoV]

No wonder big name companies don't like to do business in Brazil.

Imagine this, an old car dealer in Brazil, sold you this new, never used, fully wrapped with it's original wrapping/container from factory at German, not even a single dust spotted, 100% (not 99%) flawless beauty that was made so many-many-many years ago ..



As its old enough, when the buyer tried to start the engine, it won't start as expected, so the buyer has the right to sue Mercedes Benz ?

Is this what are you going to say ? 

[rodpp]

No, the law is applicable only if it is a legal purchase in the brazilian territory.

There is some decisions in brazilian courts in that direction, that if you buy an item from a international brand that has operations in Brazil, that brand must honor the warranty here. But there is no law saying that explicit.

[rodpp]

Good point of that car.

But here in Brazil there are some principles that the judges follow. One of them is the reasonableness.

The DSOX3014A is advertised in the brazilian Keysight, as a current product.

That beautiful Mercedes Bens ended its production some decades ago.

[BravoV]

But here in Brazil there are some principles that the judges follow. One of them is the reasonableness.

The reason of this thread is you just want to ride this silly un-reasonable law to your own personal advantages by bad mouthing and blaming Keysight, not your local Brazilian vendor. Hoping that Keysight will support you for free.

In the essence, you just want cheap quality stuff, but want the same treatment as luxurious expensively priced item, your intention is clearly taken.

Good luck with your quest.

[maginnovision]

It's also fair to say... If you haven't run cal then you're just complaining because you bought an item you knew to be old and it exhibits a not surprising issue(dc offset). Run cal and stop complaining, I'm sure if the seller actually is reputable the scope is probably fine.

[rodpp]

Yes, the scope is fine.

Probably running an auto cal will solve this issue.

But after the Keysight response, I must clarify the warranty status of the scope.

[BravoV]

No, as I said above, by law it is (together with the seller) held responsible for all equipment (legally) sold with their brand.

So in Brazil I can just smuggle a scope from US and expect Brazilian KS to offer free warranty service?
This is actually true for KS, as it honors international warranty. But for a brand that doesn't honor international warranty, you are literally asking them to pay from their own pocket for other people's profit. That's not fair.

It obvious, saw this too many, this is just another opportunistic stunt, using social media such as this forum, as the op aware KS rep is active here, to get a free ride on latest KS scope model for a really cheap price.

As the scope is fine, prolly the plan since the beginning was buying a new but obsolete product and really cheap too, and then whine as its broken, with hope (opportunistic move) that KS will send a full replacement but with latest newer today's equivalent model, as the one bought and it's parts are no longer available,  total win.  Nice eh and worth a shot isn't it ? 

[ebclr]

Bought on Black Market, From illegal importers, Is this what happens, Next time try the official channels not the cheapest ones

Se fudeu.....

[rodpp]

It is not Black Market, neither illegal.

The scope is not obsolete, I do not want any replacement. There is no reason for that.

It was said above that probably an user cal will fix the DC offset problem.


I do not want anything free, I paid for the scope including all the tax.

According with the law here, I must be covered by warranty. And the Keysight refused that. If it is normal in other countries, ok, here it is not.

After sugestions in this thread I already sent a e-mail to the seller too, to contact Keysight about this warranty case.

[sleemanj]

Good grief.  Your beef is with the place you bought it from.

Put it back in the box and take it to the place you bought it from, put it on the counter and say "I bought this recently, it is faulty, repair, replace or refund the choice is yours".

If the vendor has any smarts they will take it out the back, run the cal, and put it back in the box for you.

The manufacturer, especially who is outside of your country, is not bound to warranty things for however long it takes them sitting in some third party parallel importer's warehouse, but it's entirely reasonable for you to hold the vendor you bought it from responsible and make it THEIR problem to fix.

You say they are a respected TE vendor, well they can't be very respectable if they are not helping you.

[BravoV]

You say they are a respected TE vendor, well they can't be very respectable if they are not helping you.

The OP ain't noob, the point is keep hammering KS until it "yields" something, nothing to loose and no risk at all, apart from tainted reputation here with an anonymous id. No big deal, worst thing to come, just re-register with a new id. 

[rodpp]

I contacted the seller (Nortron) before Keysight. They do not have a replacement available, only a 2 channel scope. Then I said to them that I would contact Keysight to repair it, expecting the warranty coverage.

Today Keysight said that the warranty is expired, because it was sold to Nortron in 2011. So in Keysight understandment, when they sold it to Nortron the warranty conter started. There are two possibilites here:

1- If Nortron bought it as an end user, Keysight is correct and I am not the first owner of the scope. It is a second hand and I was cheated by Nortron;

2- But if Nortron bought it as a reseller, I am the first owner and in fact I bought a brand new unit.


I sent another email to the seller and will wait an answer.

[rodpp]

I do not returned the scope because it is the better option that I have here.

I do not have the money to buy a USD4K scope. If I had that money to spend in a scope I would not buy this DSOX3014A, but at least the T version or other model.

The DSO3014A isn't a USD4K goods...

For my use it is more than enough, indeed.

[rodpp]

In fact I do not need anything, it is my hobby. But I really want this 3000 series, since a long time ago.

I do have a lot of equipments that I do not need too, but I like to have. It is not rational.

Regarding the 1000 series it would be an option, but to me the 3000 series that is not the latest generation (less expensive, A and not T) is a much better option if available.


As a reference, Keysight has a running offer of 25% OFF in scopes (https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=3015601&nid=-11143.0.00&id=3015601).

If we consider that the Newark full price of the T version is USD3660, the DSOX3014T final price will be USD2745.

So USD2000 for the A version is not that cheap as sugested above that I want free scope, free service, whatever....

[HighVoltage]

From my experience, Keysight has the best customer service of all TE manufactures. They have taken care of all problems that I had with new equipment.

But in your case it is totally reasonable for Keysight to refuse the warranty service. Take it on with your local distributor.

How much did you really pay for this scope?

[Brumby]

To those who are pointing at the price, all I can say is - that is totally irrelevant.  Even so, $2,000 is not chicken feed!  Neither is the possibility that a self-cal will resolve the currently identified issue.  Even if this issue is sorted out, what happens if there is another problem - one that will require warranty action?

The point is a very simple one - an item was purchased as a new product, with the expectation of a warranty - and that warranty is not being honoured as expected under Brazilian law (this point must not be dismissed!!!).


To me, the OP's complaint is clearly valid.


Edit:  I'm not saying Keysight's response is unreasonable, but this could end up being the sort of issue where local law might demand they step up.

[BravoV]

To those who are pointing at the price, all I can say is - that is totally irrelevant.  Even so, $2,000 is not chicken feed!  Neither is the possibility that a self-cal will resolve the currently identified issue.  Even if this issue is sorted out, what happens if there is another problem - one that will require warranty action?

The point is a very simple one - an item was purchased as a new product, with the expectation of a warranty - and that warranty is not being honoured as expected under Brazilian law (this point must not be dismissed!!!).


To me, the OP's complaint is clearly valid.

Valid only the buyer acknowledges and understands the term set by the manufacturer, if the potential buyer doesn't agree, then do NOT buy, how hard is that ?

Also the buyer is not under any circumstances forced or tricked to buy that product, and has many other options to buy other brands.

Its like you "want" to buy a car that provides 'a lifetime support'  of free tyres and engine oil replacement as you wanted, doesn't mean the car manufacturer has the obligation to do that.

Relationship in business trasaction (not scamming) works two ways, since the beginning of human civilization, despite what ever the law said, a simple basic logic and common sense.

[paschulke2]

I bought a DSO-X2024A from Farnell Germany. Purchase date was September 22, 2015. According to Keysight's warranty status page warranty for this scope started April 29, 2015 (I lost 5 month of warranty). So it seems that it's normal for Keysight to start the warranty period when they sell the instrument to the distributor. I am quite sure (but can not check now) that Tektronix does this as well.

This is certainly surprising to the customer and I am not sure whether I think it is completely fair …

[tv84]

My 1st reaction as I read the OP's claim was that Keysight was at fault but...

In the end of the day, the deal was between the seller and the OP. The seller is responsible for guaranteeing the buyer is informed about who will be executing the warranty, and when did it start. It could be through the seller or directly with Keysight.

And surely this must be covered in Brazilian's law.

One thing is sure, Keysight can't be eternally responsible for a device that someone decides to keep in storage eternally. And I'm even not talking EOL.

The correct solution, in this case, if for the seller to refund the buyer. Any warranty war should be between the seller and the manufacturer. If their relationship still holds, nice, it not, bad luck for the seller.

[Brumby]

To me, the OP's complaint is clearly valid.

Valid only the buyer acknowledges and understands the term set by the manufacturer, if the potential buyer doesn't agree, then do NOT buy, how hard is that ?

The buyer has an expectation under Brazilian law.  The manufacturer cannot dismiss their responsibility under Brazilian law for a product purchased in Brazil.   How hard is that?

Also the buyer is not under any circumstances forced or tricked to buy that product, and has many other options to buy other brands.

Irrelevant

Its like you "want" to buy a car that provides 'a lifetime support'  of free tyres and engine oil replacement as you wanted, doesn't mean the car manufacturer has the obligation to do that.

Completely irrelevant.  We are not talking about failure of consumables - we are talking about new out of the box.

Relationship in business trasaction (not scamming) works two ways, since the beginning of human civilization, despite what ever the law said, a simple basic logic and common sense.

"despite what ever the law said".  Seriously?

[Brumby]

My 1st reaction as I read the OP's claim was that Keysight was at fault but...

In the end of the day, the deal was between the seller and the OP. The seller is responsible for guaranteeing the buyer is informed about who will be executing the warranty, and when did it start. It could be through the seller or directly with Keysight.

There is something which is more important...

And surely this must be covered in Brazilian's law.

... and that's it.

One thing is sure, Keysight can't be eternally responsible for a device that someone decides to keep in storage eternally. And I'm even not talking EOL.

The logic of that is clear, but if the laws involved define something different, then it may well be that the seemingly ridiculous is the way it will play out.

The correct solution, in this case, if for the seller to refund the buyer. Any warranty war should be between the seller and the manufacturer. If their relationship still holds, nice, it not, bad luck for the seller.

That is the easy answer for the manufacturer and the seller.  The purchaser is then disadvantaged compared to the position they expected to be in having shelled out a four digit sum.

[Muttley Snickers]

If people are going to make reference consumer laws in various countries then they should provide either a link to the relevant web pages or some other citation or evidence of said rule of law, otherwise their interpretation may be flawed and nothing more than hearsay.

[Brumby]

I'm not saying that Keysight is obligated to act - I'm just saying that the laws involved may require them to act.  Even as absurd as the situation appears on the surface (which I don't disagree with in the slightest), this could end up as being an edge case under the banner of the cost of doing business in this particular market.


We can speculate and argue all we like - but the only opinion that matters is the legal one in Brazil.

If people are going to make reference consumer laws in various countries then they should provide either a link to the relevant web pages or some other citation or evidence of said rule of law, otherwise their interpretation may be flawed and nothing more than hearsay.

Fair point.  That would (hopefully) help clarify the responsibilities of the parties involved.

[iMo]

According to the Brazil law:

Art. 3. A supplier is any physical person or corporate entity, of a public or private nature, domestic or foreign, as well as other involved in the activities of production, assembly, creation, construction, transformation, importing, exporting, distribution, or commercialization of products or services.

http://www.procon.rj.gov.br/procon/assets/arquivos/arquivos/CDC_Novembro_2014_Ingles.pdf

[BravoV]

To me, the OP's complaint is clearly valid.

Valid only the buyer acknowledges and understands the term set by the manufacturer, if the potential buyer doesn't agree, then do NOT buy, how hard is that ?

The buyer has an expectation under Brazilian law.  The manufacturer cannot dismiss their responsibility under Brazilian law for a product purchased in Brazil.   How hard is that?

Also the buyer is not under any circumstances forced or tricked to buy that product, and has many other options to buy other brands.

Irrelevant

Its like you "want" to buy a car that provides 'a lifetime support'  of free tyres and engine oil replacement as you wanted, doesn't mean the car manufacturer has the obligation to do that.

Completely irrelevant.  We are not talking about failure of consumables - we are talking about new out of the box.

Relationship in business trasaction (not scamming) works two ways, since the beginning of human civilization, despite what ever the law said, a simple basic logic and common sense.

"despite what ever the law said".  Seriously?

Aha .. bait taken. 

Please, don't just carpet bomb everything when every times a word "law" pops out.

Different countries has different laws, and some has weird and even beyond logic law.

So, are you saying , that you "sympathize" the OP if the Brazilian law stated that every transaction, the seller and the manufacturer are responsible for warranty, no matter how old the product, and its a major offense that is punishable by death penalty.

Yep, I know this sounds nasty, but there are laws like dead sentence if you're LGBT, so my example is not that bad. 

So will you support the petition to send Keysight's CEO to Brazil's court to face that ? 

Uphold the law above everything right ? Even common sense or simpler form, humanity.

[Mr. Scram]

To those who are pointing at the price, all I can say is - that is totally irrelevant.  Even so, $2,000 is not chicken feed!  Neither is the possibility that a self-cal will resolve the currently identified issue.  Even if this issue is sorted out, what happens if there is another problem - one that will require warranty action?

The point is a very simple one - an item was purchased as a new product, with the expectation of a warranty - and that warranty is not being honoured as expected under Brazilian law (this point must not be dismissed!!!).


To me, the OP's complaint is clearly valid.


Edit:  I'm not saying Keysight's response is unreasonable, but this could end up being the sort of issue where local law might demand they step up.

By OP's own admission it's not even Brazilian law. Some judges have ruled in a way which may or may not be interpreted as such. According to OP it should, which isn't much of a surprise.

OP willingly ignored the party he bought the device from it seems because they can't provide him with another. That's obviously not a reason, other than an opportunistic one because he'll end up with no device. Instead he's opted to go after a party no part of the deal he opted to engage in. Not to mention he's so far refused to do a user cal, which all seems to suggest he's after a new Keysight branded unit at a discount.

[JDubU]

An article on the various types of manufacturer/reseller warranties:

https://www.globalsupplychainlawblog.com/legal-analysis/dont-just-pass-it-through-options-for-handling-warranties-down-the-supply-chain-2/

[Brumby]

"Bait taken"...?  Sounds more like an attempt to undermine what I posted.

But, anyway...

My ignorance of what Brazilian law actually states and the actual implementation of it through the judiciary means I am not proposing what should be done.  I was just pointing out what may possibly be the case - and that blanket statements made based on "what is only common sense" in other jurisdictions and cultures are even less compelling.

[rsjsouza]

Death penalty, LGBT, CEO being jailed... BravoV, take a chill pill, man!

I am with Brumby here. The law is not entirely clear in this aspect link, but the jurisprudence mentioned by the OP is sometimes applicable, regardless if you think it is reasonable or not. Also, if the item was legally purchased in good faith (regardless of the price paid) and there was a legal bonding at some point in time between the two companies, a case could be made that the manufacturer, by having representation in Brasil, would need to honor it just like they did with my NOS Agilent DMM here in the US (and no, I didn't think I was entitled to that, but this could be considered a double standard when comparing the two scenarios). Given it is a peripheral market, all that is left is the local law and the good faith of the parties involved.

[CDaniel]

Reading here I understand that the oscilloscope was sold to Nortron , probably the reason why the waranty expired .
I don't think a normal and official reseller would buy the equipment in stock , that is big big money ... so the problem is not that simple .
Usually the producer is still the owner of the equipment ... not the reseller/distributor , so when the stock is old would be recalled back , no NOS situations after many years would be possible .

[Mr. Scram]

Death penalty, LGBT, CEO being jailed... BravoV, take a chill pill, man!

I am with Brumby here. The law is not entirely clear in this aspect link, but the jurisprudence mentioned by the OP is sometimes applicable, regardless if you think it is reasonable or not. Also, if the item was legally purchased in good faith (regardless of the price paid) and there was a legal bonding at some point in time between the two companies, a case could be made that the manufacturer, by having representation in Brasil, would need to honor it just like they did with my NOS Agilent DMM here in the US (and no, I didn't think I was entitled to that, but this could be considered a double standard when comparing the two scenarios). Given it is a peripheral market, all that is left is the local law and the good faith of the parties involved.

The key word is probably "sometimes". Laymen and people with interests interpreting law can only go wrong. There are plenty of other factors to be discussed before ever touching the law, like OP refusing to take it up with the supplier and conveniently taking it up with the manufacturer or even doing a user calibration. Especially the latter shows he likely has zero intent of solving the actual issue and intended to score a brand new current day device for the discount price of one that's been on the shelf for years. Legal systems typically also include good faith, an obligation to examine and evaluate things and more, none of which seem applicable to OP. At this point it's not even clear there actually is a defect, which means this has potentially been a huge waste of everyone's time.

If I were a more malicious person I'd hope OP would get stuck with a defective device, because he'd get what he deserves. In reality I hope the user calibration fixes the issue and gets many years of use out of the actual device he purchased.

[bdunham7]

Reading here I understand that the oscilloscope was sold to Nortron , probably the reason why the waranty expired .
I don't think a normal and official reseller would buy the equipment in stock , that is big big money ... so the problem is not that simple .
Usually the producer is still the owner of the equipment ... not the reseller/distributor , so when the stock is old would be recalled back , no NOS situations after many years would be possible .

I really doubt that Keysight would put their equipment on consignment as you speculate.  It certainly isn't normal here, although I can't speak to Brazil or Romania.  Having been in business in the US, I can tell you that while some suppliers may extend credit terms, they don't retain title in the goods for many reasons and they almost never want their product to be returned.  Returning NOS product after the termination of an authorized dealer relationship is especially difficult and almost never happens unless there are very special circumstances. 

There's no big mystery here as to how warranties operate.  For most places that I'm aware of, the warranty starts as of the first retail purchase.  Most manufacturers of things don't even address the warranty issue until a claim is made, then they ask for proof of purchase.  Some, of course, register warranties and keep a record of each serial number.  In that case, they may substitute the manufacture date in their records until some subsequent event--warranty registration, notice of retail purchase, warranty claim, etc--happens. 

The question here is how long after the manufacture date can you register or update the start of the warranty period?  Most manufacturers don't address this--and I don't know in Keysight's case--but some do.  Solar equipment manufacturers commonly state the warranty as X years after the first retail installation (and often only to the first purchaser or first installation) but limited to X+A years after manufacture.  I think this was in response to games played by solar users and dealers and the overall high warranty rate in the early years of solar power.  So assuming HPAK (Agilent at the time) didn't address this, and further assuming Nortron was an authorized Agilent dealer at the time, the OP's desire to have the warranty made current is not necessarily ridiculous and very well may be supported by law. 

Legal questions aside, what is fair?  Yes, the OP got a "deal", but if I buy a car that has been on the dealers lot for a year, I still get a full warranty.  If I buy a current production NOS item from a normal retailer, I generally expect a factory warranty even if the box is dusty--or even open.  Does anyone disagree with that?  Ten years is a lot, but where would you draw the line?  Five?  Three?  Two?  Why?

In this case, Agilent sold the scope long ago, but never had to provide any warranty service.  Suppose it had an actual manufacturing defect.  Should they avoid having to fix it just because some time has gone by?  OTOH, what if the problem is due to corroded boards because it was stored in humid shed for 10 years.  For me, the fairness isn't so black and white--and it depends on what the problem is.  In this instance, I doubt Agilent put the scope in the box, cal cert and all, with the DC offset significantly off.  I also think the best solution for everyone--OP. Nortron and HPAK--would be to work something out instead of engaging in a huge pissing match. 

[NoisyBoy]

I can't believe we are spending so much time on what turns into a smear campaign.

The key point is if Norton is not a authorized Keysight distributor, it is no different from someone selling the scope out of trunk of his car that has been there for 8 years.  In the US, the majority of the manufacturer do not honor warranty for product sold outside of the official distributor channel, the seller is responsible for offering its own repair and warranty service, if any.  If you don't like it, don't buy it from the unauthorized channel and pay more to get it through the proper channel to get support.

It is unfair to bring this to this forum and make this appears to be a Keysight problem.

[rsjsouza]

Death penalty, LGBT, CEO being jailed... BravoV, take a chill pill, man!

I am with Brumby here. The law is not entirely clear in this aspect link, but the jurisprudence mentioned by the OP is sometimes applicable, regardless if you think it is reasonable or not. Also, if the item was legally purchased in good faith (regardless of the price paid) and there was a legal bonding at some point in time between the two companies, a case could be made that the manufacturer, by having representation in Brasil, would need to honor it just like they did with my NOS Agilent DMM here in the US (and no, I didn't think I was entitled to that, but this could be considered a double standard when comparing the two scenarios). Given it is a peripheral market, all that is left is the local law and the good faith of the parties involved.

The key word is probably "sometimes". Laymen and people with interests interpreting law can only go wrong. There are plenty of other factors to be discussed before ever touching the law,

Jurisprudence works that way there - even with previous decisions, mutatis mutandis nobody can really guarantee how a decision will go in the future - it always has to go through the process again. (This is different than English common law).

like OP refusing to take it up with the supplier and conveniently taking it up with the manufacturer or even doing a user calibration.

This is not USA y'know? When I grew up there, any problems with any equipment (even 0day issues) were never settled with the reseller/store, but only dealt with the manufacturer and its network of repair service centers (centros de assistência técnica), therefore it is not surprising to me that a buyer would take it to the manufacturer. Only somewhat recently (past two years or three) that I have seen inly a handful of stores with an exchange policy of 72 hours. (operative word: exchange, which is different than warranty).

Especially the latter shows he likely has zero intent of solving the actual issue and intended to score a brand new current day device for the discount price of one that's been on the shelf for years.

With that background, anyone that buys a product with a perceived 0day issue will certainly try to take up to the manufacturer. That is the regular practice there.

Also, the store is an official distributor of other brands (I verified Fluke), therefore it is possbile the OP acted in good faith and trusted the store in question.

Look, I have seen smart asses before, but being certain the person is malicious with only a handful of posts written in what is not one's mother language is quite low. From where I see this case, there are enough elemwnts to give it the benefit of the doubt. Obviously that can change depending on how this unrolls.

[GerryR]

...........It is unfair to bring this to this forum and make this appears to be a Keysight problem.

This may, or may not be a direct Keysight problem, but just for good customer relations, Keysight should have taken the unit back and or swapped it out.  Tektronix and HP (not Agilent or Keysight) have responded this way in the past (ah, the good old days).  The customer ships the unit back to the manufacturer, and they take care of the problem, and you don't get any bad press like this.  I doubt there are many cases like this that would impact Keysight's bottom line. I don't care what the "law" says.

[sokoloff]

...........It is unfair to bring this to this forum and make this appears to be a Keysight problem.

This may, or may not be a direct Keysight problem, but just for good customer relations, Keysight should have taken the unit back and or swapped it out.  Tektronix and HP (not Agilent or Keysight) have responded this way in the past (ah, the good old days).  The customer ships the unit back to the manufacturer, and they take care of the problem, and you don't get any bad press like this.  I doubt there are many cases like this that would impact Keysight's bottom line. I don't care what the "law" says.

If Norton is a current distributor for Keysight, I tend to agree with this position.

If Norton is not a current distributor for Keysight, I don't see Keysight as having that same obligation, legally, ethically, nor morally.

[rodpp]

I would like to thank all of you that contributed with your opinions.

Regarding the Nortron store where I have bought the scope, it is a 35 years old TE store in Brazil. Currently they are partners of some A grade TE companies in Brazil, like Tektronix, Fluke and Keithley.

In 2012 they were an Agilent partner too, although currently it seems that they are not anymore. Please see this waybackmachine snapshot:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120405053829/http://www.nortronne.com.br/

[snoopy]

I can't believe we are spending so much time on what turns into a smear campaign.

The key point is if Norton is not a authorized Keysight distributor, it is no different from someone selling the scope out of trunk of his car that has been there for 8 years.  In the US, the majority of the manufacturer do not honor warranty for product sold outside of the official distributor channel, the seller is responsible for offering its own repair and warranty service, if any.  If you don't like it, don't buy it from the unauthorized channel and pay more to get it through the proper channel to get support.

It is unfair to bring this to this forum and make this appears to be a Keysight problem.

Why ? Just because he is a hobbyist and doesn't have the clout of one of Keysight's major customers ?

He bought the scope in good faith that it is a new current model that is covered by the statutory warranty and then finds out that it is faulty and not fit for purpose. He may as well flushed the money down the toilet. If he wanted a fixerupper he could have easily bought one from ebay !

This sort of thing happens all to often unfortunately. Case in point. An aussie dude buys a new Jeep and has no end of problems with it and the dealers just fob him off time and time again. See what happens in the end

[TheSteve]

I can't believe we are spending so much time on what turns into a smear campaign.

The key point is if Norton is not a authorized Keysight distributor, it is no different from someone selling the scope out of trunk of his car that has been there for 8 years.  In the US, the majority of the manufacturer do not honor warranty for product sold outside of the official distributor channel, the seller is responsible for offering its own repair and warranty service, if any.  If you don't like it, don't buy it from the unauthorized channel and pay more to get it through the proper channel to get support.

It is unfair to bring this to this forum and make this appears to be a Keysight problem.

Why ? Just because he is a hobbyist and doesn't have the clout of one of Keysight's major customers ?

He bought the scope in good faith that it is a new current model that is covered by the statutory warranty and then finds out that it is faulty and not fit for purpose. He may as well flushed the money down the toilet. If he wanted a fixerupper he could have easily bought one from ebay !

This sort of thing happens all to often unfortunately. Case in point. An aussie dude buys a new Jeep and has no end of problems with it and the dealers just fob him off time and time again. See what happens in the end

Actually it seems unlikely the scope is faulty, it most likely just needs a user cal as it is 8 years old.

Also saying "new current model" is also a bit of stretch. It is Agilent branded, they switched to Keysight end of 2013/beginning of 2014.

btw, from what I recall back in 2011 the warranty on the scope would have only been 1 year, pretty sure it was later that Keysight changed to a 3 year warranty.

Lastly if they cleared the scope out years after they were no longer an Agilent dealer then it is hard to expect it would have a warranty - this may have even been one of the reasons it was sold at around half price.

At this point I would install the newest firmware (version 2.50 at this time). Perform a user cal and see how it performs. Assuming it runs fine then there is no issue, enjoy the great deal on a very nice scope, with any luck it will provide many years of great service and no warranty service will be needed anyway.

[NoisyBoy]

I agree with TheSteve, update the firmware, run a self-cal, if it is still off, then return it for a full refund. 

Sounds like this is a reputable dealer for other brands, I am surprised that they did not warn you it is an old stock, and that there will be no warranty because they are no longer a Keysight distributor.  If they indeed open the box, test the equipment before selling it, they clearly missed something in their "test".  If they are professional, they should either fix it at their own expense, or give you a full refund.  You can then shop from an authorized dealer if you want full warranty and support.   

[BravoV]

Death penalty, LGBT, CEO being jailed... BravoV, take a chill pill, man!

I know, that sound crazy, but its a fact there are crazy laws around the world -> Fresh example from 2019, my point is, it doesn't mean every manufacturer should obey such crazy "law" for the sake of upholding the word "law".

I'm out of here too, all of this is like buying an unopened old scope from a pawn shop, but still demand the manufacturer to support the warranty.

[snoopy]

Death penalty, LGBT, CEO being jailed... BravoV, take a chill pill, man!

I know, that sound crazy, but its a fact there are crazy laws around the world -> Fresh example from 2019, my point is, it doesn't mean every manufacturer should obey such crazy "law" for the sake of upholding the word "law".

I'm out of here too, all of this is like buying an unopened old scope from a pawn shop, but still demand the manufacturer to support the warranty.

But he didn't buy it from a pawn shop. And besides Keysight sell refurbished equipment with full warranties so what's the difference here ?

https://saving.em.keysight.com/used-equipment/products/en

[Fungus]

Yes, probably a User Cal could fix this. But as the offset is much worse than specified, I want it to be checked properly.

If you haven't done a self-cal yet then this is probably a non-issue.

PS: You're supposed to do self-cal before any important measurement.

[2N3055]

First things first, this is not really a topic for Test equipment  category.
It's about salesmen and buyers..

Second, discussion is going in wrong direction because not everybody read ALL posts from OP, it seems to me.

First he made bombastic title and wrote " My BRAND NEW DSOX3014A is defective and Keysight doesn't want to honor the warranty."

Then he mentions that scope is 8 years old. It is so old that, in fact, it has AGILENT on the front.

Reading through this it looks like OP was under impression that he bought BRAND NEW scope and was given 8 years old NOS equipment, and now nor vendor nor Keysight want to help him.

Several posts later he reveals that he has paid for the scope only 2000 USD (in a Brazil that is usually much more expensive than in USA) and that he knew it was NOS and and knew the price was so good because of that. Also vendor was, once upon a time, Agilent partner but it's not anymore, so they can't solve this trough official channels. But he expected full warranty.
Bad thing he didn't verify first.

While I sympathise with his situation, Keysight is not really bound to help him and give him warranty. It came from unofficial channel, and is NOS.

Honest thing is for a vendor to honor warranty and pay for repairs.
Which they don't want to do...

But hey, one can try then, maybe Keysight will do something about, because they are known to help sometimes if you ask nicely and if it's a nice story. They get some good will and publicity and they help someone... It's all good.

So now problems.
First this is a wrong way to ask. It's nice to be nice. You don't attack and then ask for help.

Second, scope might have some problem, but more likely it's a self cal thing.
So you try that first and then if that doesn't work, you ask for help.
But no, OP's first reaction was to try to send it for repair (which today means new mainboard or whatnot), because he is appalled that his "brand new" scope is not perfect as it should be. While he damn well knows it is NOS, and that because of that he paid half the price (maybe even less in Brazil) of the really new one.

It's a peculiar story...

It might be that he is fishing for things he didn't pay for.

Or it might be he's an nice honorable man that gave his last penny and now is desperate it all worked out so anticlimactically.

I don't know, don't know the man. I won't judge.

But there are few things that can be done.

1. Try Self cal. If it works, false alarm. All are happy. And then, as soon as possible put newest firmware on it before he loses FLASH. Those are THE original sinners..
2. If it's still bad after self cal, he can apologize to Keysight for attacking them and ask for help. Nicely. Maybe they can forfeit diagnostic fee. Maybe they will chose to honor warranty.
But this was better solved with PM to Daniel.
3. Can he purchase extended warranty? Usually you can, for comparatively little money. Again, work with Keysight.
4. If all fails, pay for the repair. In the end, you might still end up cheaper than buying a new one at full retail price...

But as a first step, change the title. They didn't refuse your warranty. You bought your scope in a way that didn't give you any warranty. Your beef is with vendor. And you attacked only people that can help you..

Flies, honey and vinegar...

[Brumby]

Again I say to people pointing to the price he paid ... that is irrelevant to the principle at the core of this issue.  But even looking at the sum involved, $2,000 isn't trivial.

The product was sold as new.  New equipment can be expected to have warranty.  Should the OP have checked before?  Maybe.  But if purchased as new, would you think that necessary?  This leans on the principle of "in good faith".

[Brumby]

HOWEVER, even if a self-cal/firmware update fixes the observed issue at this point in time - there is still one problem that is NOT resolved - and that is the warranty situation should a real problem arise in the future.


For what it's worth, in this situation, what I would think is fair is for Nortron to wear the responsibility for warranty, paying Keysight for any necessary repairs, should it need manufacturer attention.  This takes the pressure off the purchaser and Nortron can just hope the unit survives the warranty period.  With the current situation, it would seem Nortron would have the expertise to do the self-cal and maybe a firmware update for only in-house labour cost - and if that fixes things for now, then they will be crossing their fingers until the warranty period has ended.

As much as this might seem a reasonable course of action, there might be some element of the legal environment - that Keysight has had to accept in order to have a presence in that market - which may require their involvement.  This MAY be a thing or it may NOT - I just don't know.

[sokoloff]

Again I say to people pointing to the price he paid ... that is irrelevant to the principle at the core of this issue.  But even looking at the sum involved, $2,000 isn't trivial.

The product was sold as new.  New equipment can be expected to have warranty.  Should the OP have checked before?  Maybe.  But if purchased as new, would you think that necessary?  This leans on the principle of "in good faith".

The warranty has some (insurance-like) value to be sure. The reason many of us think the price paid (low due to it being NOS bought from a non-distributor) is relevant is because part of the value saved may be represented by the lack of warranty. It would be lovely if every bargain we found came with zero strings attached, but that's not always the case.

Suppose I bought a 3548A from an Ebay vendor who happens to have been an HP distributor in years past but isn't a current Keysight distributor. The vendor listed it as "new, in box" and what arrives is an opened box 3458A with an HP front panel and a 7 year lapsed calibration certificate. After an ACAL, it seems to work fine, but I'm pretty sure I don't have a Keysight warranty on it. If I paid $11K for that, I got ripped off. If I paid $6K for that, I got a good deal. If I paid $4K for it, I got a "you suck!" deal. Only difference between "ripped off" and "you suck!" is the price paid.

Even in the cases where I got a good deal, if I understood the device to be new A-stock, any recourse that I have to unwind the transaction is with the seller, not with Keysight.

Any "in good faith" argument is between the buyer and Norton; Keysight is not involved, IMO.

[BravoV]

Any "in good faith" argument is between the buyer and Norton; Keysight is not involved, IMO.

Some people strongly believe that when you have an expired canned/bottled food or drink, you can claim to the manufacturer for a fresh replacement for free, I guess some countries have this kind of law running.

If it is, just curious if dumpster diving is popular there, especially at the supermarket's garbage/trash.

[Brumby]

Some people strongly believe that when you have an expired canned/bottled food or drink, you can claim to the manufacturer for a fresh replacement for free...

You really need to work on your examples.

[BravoV]

Some people strongly believe that when you have an expired canned/bottled food or drink, you can claim to the manufacturer for a fresh replacement for free...

You really need to work on your examples.

Yeah, an expired canned food surely is different from an new old stock, new in box oscilloscope.

I get it, the words of "in good faith" of your version, will have different treatment on a dumpster dived ... err ... bought canned food from a supermarket, which already expired (pretend you missed checking the date) .. vs .. a NIB NOS oscilloscope, right.

If Dave could find an eBay deal and scored a really cheap NIB and NOS "CRT" oscilloscope, and unfortunately it has rotten capacitors in it, and whine in a video that the scope manufacturer denies any responsibility to support it, I guess you must be really happy to stand on Dave's side at such video, aren't you ?

No more, I get it, point taken.

[Mr. Scram]

HOWEVER, even if a self-cal/firmware update fixes the observed issue at this point in time - there is still one problem that is NOT resolved - and that is the warranty situation should a real problem arise in the future.


For what it's worth, in this situation, what I would think is fair is for Nortron to wear the responsibility for warranty, paying Keysight for any necessary repairs, should it need manufacturer attention.  This takes the pressure off the purchaser and Nortron can just hope the unit survives the warranty period.  With the current situation, it would seem Nortron would have the expertise to do the self-cal and maybe a firmware update for only in-house labour cost - and if that fixes things for now, then they will be crossing their fingers until the warranty period has ended.

As much as this might seem a reasonable course of action, there might be some element of the legal environment - that Keysight has had to accept in order to have a presence in that market - which may require their involvement.  This MAY be a thing or it may NOT - I just don't know.

Why would you say there is no warranty? There is through Nortron. It should be noted that some countries allow for the sale of equipment without warranty in some circumstances, typically at a healthy discount.

[snoopy]

Some people strongly believe that when you have an expired canned/bottled food or drink, you can claim to the manufacturer for a fresh replacement for free...

You really need to work on your examples.

Yeah, an expired canned food surely is different from an new old stock, new in box oscilloscope.

I get it, the words of "in good faith" of your version, will have different treatment on a dumpster dived ... err ... bought canned food from a supermarket, which already expired (pretend you missed checking the date) .. vs .. a NIB NOS oscilloscope, right.

If Dave could find an eBay deal and scored a really cheap NIB and NOS "CRT" oscilloscope, and unfortunately it has rotten capacitors in it, and whine in a video that the scope manufacturer denies any responsibility to support it, I guess you must be really happy to stand on Dave's side at such video, aren't you ?

No more, I get it, point taken.

But he didn't buy it from ebay he bought it from a dealer who probably told him the warranty was still valid from the date of purchase !

[Muttley Snickers]

But he didn't buy it from ebay he bought it from a dealer who probably told him the warranty was still valid from the date of purchase !

Speculation won't help at all, in fact you don't know what transpired in relation to this transaction, in fact none of us know other than what the OP has chosen to provide. 

[snoopy]

But he didn't buy it from ebay he bought it from a dealer who probably told him the warranty was still valid from the date of purchase !

Speculation won't help at all, in fact you don't know what transpired in relation to this transaction, in fact none of us know other than what the OP has chosen to provide.

No I don't so lets see the receipt which would add credibility to the orignal story

Plenty of speculation against the OP btw !

[Fungus]

Plenty of speculation against the OP btw !

I think he just needs to push the "self-cal" button.

[GerryR]

4 pages of this, so far.  Just a good-faith gesture by Keysight, or the company that sold it, could have avoided all this negative press for all concerned!  Like I said, "Ah, the good old days," when customer satisfaction and a companies reputation meant more than profit.

[TK]

The 3000A series scope requires a calibration cable made of some equal length BNC - BNC cables with some BNC T to bring the calibration signal from the back of the scope to all 4 inputs

[snoopy]

4 pages of this, so far.  Just a good-faith gesture by Keysight, or the company that sold it, could have avoided all this negative press for all concerned!  Like I said, "Ah, the good old days," when customer satisfaction and a companies reputation meant more than profit.

Yeh good point. Why doesn't the dude from Keysight who frequents this forum help out by offering some suggestions the OP could try ? Like others have said it could just be a simple self cal.

[Fungus]

Yeh good point. Why doesn't the dude from Keysight who frequents this forum help out by offering some suggestions the OP could try ? Like others have said it could just be a simple self cal.

It happened over the weekend, maybe he hasn't checked in yet.

If the 'scope was manufactured eleven years ago and shows up on the Keysight database as "warranty expired" then the problem seems to be with the distributor.

[Mr. Scram]

4 pages of this, so far.  Just a good-faith gesture by Keysight, or the company that sold it, could have avoided all this negative press for all concerned!  Like I said, "Ah, the good old days," when customer satisfaction and a companies reputation meant more than profit.

There's no "negative press", just someone who gambled and seems to have lost. Let's not make this into more than a guy refusing to do a self calibration.

[james_s]

No wonder big name companies don't like to do business in Brazil.

Imagine this, an old car dealer in Brazil, sold you this new, never used, fully wrapped with it's original wrapping/container from factory at German, not even a single dust spotted, 100% (not 99%) flawless beauty that was made so many-many-many years ago ..



As its old enough, when the buyer tried to start the engine, it won't start as expected, so the buyer has the right to sue Mercedes Benz ?

Is this what are you going to say ? 

Sure, if it was truly never used then I think it's reasonable to expect the warranty to be valid unless it was specifically stated to be as-is at the time of purchase. I mean look at it this way, how often is something like that going to come up? The number of new old stock items dwindles all the time and providing warranty support for them is just a cost of doing business. For a car it's a pretty safe bet, if somebody really found a NOS car like that the manufacture could do well by honoring the warranty, look at all the free advertising and news articles they would get, "car manufacture honors warranty on 75 year old car!" The cost of fully servicing the car would be peanuts next to the cost of running a television commercial.

[Mr. Scram]

It seems unlikely the cost of dealing with dried out stock is worth the media attention that one unique find people care about yields. It seems rather unreasonable too. Nobody is going to care about a 40 year old power supply and it'll definitely have issues with capacitors or calibration batteries from being on the shelf that long.

[GerryR]

4 pages of this, so far.  Just a good-faith gesture by Keysight, or the company that sold it, could have avoided all this negative press for all concerned!  Like I said, "Ah, the good old days," when customer satisfaction and a companies reputation meant more than profit.

There's no "negative press", just someone who gambled and seems to have lost. Let's not make this into more than a guy refusing to do a self calibration.

After 4 pages of comments, it has already been made into more "than a guy refusing to do a self calibration."  I'm not taking anybodies side hear, just stating what would have been done in the past.  I'm 70 and have been dealing in the electronics fields for almost 50 years, and I have seen, and experienced, how customer "care' has faded, and with the so-called global market, how impersonal things have gotten.  JMO

[Keysight DanielBogdanoff]

Just got pointed to this thread, I've been travelling and not as frequent on here as usual. Sorry for jumping in late.

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen anything like this before. We automatically add some time to warranties for items sold through distribution (like this one), but we definitely don't add 8 years. A normal time-in-stock for something like this is maybe 6 months, then it gets sold. I'd highly recommend working to get a refund and purchasing from an authorized distributor. From what I can tell, they are not an authorized distributor.

The list of authorized distributors can be found at: https://www.keysight.com/find/distributor

The alternative would be to try a self-cal or to get the distributor to cover the expense of an official calibration. The self-cal option is also likely to help, and you don't have to worry about the factory cal because that is quite expired.

[Mr. Scram]

After 4 pages of comments, it has already been made into more "than a guy refusing to do a self calibration."  I'm not taking anybodies side hear, just stating what would have been done in the past.  I'm 70 and have been dealing in the electronics fields for almost 50 years, and I have seen, and experienced, how customer "care' has faded, and with the so-called global market, how impersonal things have gotten.  JMO

I don't wholly disagree with that assessment, although it does reek a bit too much of a rosy view of the past and everything being better back then. It also reeks of blaming Keysight. It really still is about a guy refusing to do a self calibration. Without one we don't even know whether there actually is a faulty device. Without knowing that we don't even have to get into contacting Nortron. Let alone contacting Keysight if Nortron drops the ball somehow if and when OP has a faulty device and asks the seller to address the situation. So far we've seen OP being utterly unwilling to help the situation or himself and he only seems interested in shifting responsibility towards the one party he thinks may provide him with a brand new oscilloscope at a discount. I'd say it's time to put up or shut up, although it should be noted OP has been remarkably absent.

[rodpp]

I am not abscent. I am following this thread and reading all contributions.

Its not only a matter of Self Calibration. It probably will fix this issue, as I agreed before in this topic.

The problem is that Keysight is refusing the warranty, and as Daniel said above Keysight expect 6 months of stock, never 8 years as is my case.

So I bought the scope as brand new expecting full warranty (and this expectation is supported by Brazilian law), and it is not what I got.

If tomorrow the scope presents a more serious problem, I will need the warranty.

Today Nortron answered my email, asking to wait that my problem was escalated inside Nortron.

I will just ignore some comments saying that I want a new scope, free scope, free services, etc, it is not worth the time to reply, sorry.

[GerryR]

It's not a rosy view of the past; it's a past I have lived through.  The bigger companies, HP, Tektronix, Fluke, etc. would bend over backwards to make a customer happy.  And, I'm not blaming Keysight, but they have the ability, if nothing else, to have the 'scope sent in for an evaluation, and IMO at no charge, except shipping.  If misused or abused or whatever, then they can tell the customer, "sorry 'bout that, you bought an old lemon, but we can fix it for $XX or return it to you, or you can trade it in for $X on X model."  The most Norton can (should) do is offer a refund, unless it was specifically stated on the invoice, "old stock, no warranty."  (Even distributors sometimes offer a 30-60 day money back guaranty on new-old stock.)  Anyway, this is getting really old.     Have a great day!

[Mr. Scram]

It's not a rosy view of the past; it's a past I have lived through.  The bigger companies, HP, Tektronix, Fluke, etc. would bend over backwards to make a customer happy.  And, I'm not blaming Keysight, but they have the ability, if nothing else, to have the 'scope sent in for an evaluation, and IMO at no charge, except shipping.  If misused or abused or whatever, then they can tell the customer, "sorry 'bout that, you bought an old lemon, but we can fix it for $XX or return it to you, or you can trade it in for $X on X model."  The most Norton can (should) do is offer a refund, unless it was specifically stated on the invoice, "old stock, no warranty."  (Even distributors sometimes offer a 30-60 day money back guaranty on new-old stock.)  Anyway, this is getting really old.     Have a great day!

Having lived through something doesn't preclude rosy views at all. The mind is fickle and time does strange things to it. That things used to be better is so worn out it's a trope and a tired one at that. Not to mention that customers have become a little more mouthy nowadays and that bending over for each and every one of them no matter how unreasonable will mean going out of business. That won't help your actual customers either. Also consider much of the modern equipment is much more reliable and lower maintenance than much of the old stuff. OP bought a NOS scope at a hefty discount and refuses to do a basic self calibration on a device which is the better part of a decade out of factory calibration. He should probably consider helping himself before asking others to help him.

[zitt]

Tell Norton you want a full refund and you'll go buy a scope from a vendor who sells new stock with full warranty.
End of Story.

Seriously; you pay that kind of money - you should have full MFG warranty. Given the scope is already 8 years old; just return it as it's clear KS won't warranty the scope.

[GerryR]

Having lived through something doesn't preclude rosy views at all. The mind is fickle and time does strange things to it. That things used to be better is so worn out it's a trope and a tired one at that. Not to mention that customers have become a little more mouthy nowadays and that bending over for each and every one of them no matter how unreasonable will mean going out of business. That won't help your actual customers either. Also consider much of the modern equipment is much more reliable and lower maintenance than much of the old stuff. OP bought a NOS scope at a hefty discount and refuses to do a basic self calibration on a device which is the better part of a decade out of factory calibration. He should probably consider helping himself before asking others to help him.

The OP stated a couple of times that the self-cal wasn't the issue and that the Warranty is the important thing to him.  Not everyone can spend a couple of G's on something , have it fail and then go spend a couple more on something else.  You might take a chance on something for a really good price, if you know you can work around a failure.  Not everyone is in that kind of a financial position.  Warranties have saved my butt a couple of times, and that's not a rosy view talking.

[Mr. Scram]

The OP stated a couple of times that the self-cal wasn't the issue and that the Warranty is the important thing to him.  Not everyone can spend a couple of G's on something , have it fail and then go spend a couple more on something else.  You might take a chance on something for a really good price, if you know you can work around a failure.  Not everyone is in that kind of a financial position.  Warranties have saved my but a couple of times, and that's not a rosy view talking.

If warranty is that important take it up with the person who sold the device to you or don't take a chance on a heavily discounted NOS unit. So far OP has refused to press the issue with Nortron "because they don't have another one". Which happens to also point towards something rather different than worry about warranty. However, it'd be better to have OP do his own talking.

[maginnovision]

It also doesn't matter. If he does a self cal and it comes good(99% chance) what are the odds he'll have an issue in a year(original warranty)? If he updates the firmware I'd bet it's pretty low. These were not high failure rate scopes, if they were they never would have made a 3000T because nobody would pay that kind of money when the heritage is garbage. Run self cal and stop worrying about a warranty that'd likely do nothing for you even if you had it.

[Brumby]

It also doesn't matter. If he does a self cal and it comes good(99% chance) what are the odds he'll have an issue in a year(original warranty)? If he updates the firmware I'd bet it's pretty low. These were not high failure rate scopes, if they were they never would have made a 3000T because nobody would pay that kind of money when the heritage is garbage. Run self cal and stop worrying about a warranty that'd likely do nothing for you even if you had it.

This is why I suggested he deal with Nortron - they are the ones who are the weak link in this story.  Let them do the self-cal and underwrite a 12 month warranty.  With a scope that has a good track record it's highly likely that the only thing which will happen is that the Op stops worrying.

[bdunham7]

Tell Norton you want a full refund and you'll go buy a scope from a vendor who sells new stock with full warranty.
End of Story.

Seriously; you pay that kind of money - you should have full MFG warranty. Given the scope is already 8 years old; just return it as it's clear KS won't warranty the scope.

To be fair, if I could get the scope I wanted NIB NOS but without a warranty (or actually, with a 90 day warranty) for half price or better, I think I'd go that route.  And it isn't totally clear that KS is totally disowning any warranty, although that may be the case.  So far they've only declined to recalibrate a decade old instrument for free.

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi!

I bought a brand new DSOX3014A and it seems defective, presenting a negative DC offset in all ranges, and it is not constant along the ranges.

Snip ..
 
Regards,
Rodrigo.

To the OP can you tell us how big the offsets are?

I suspect that some offsets are normal. I am very familiar with Tektronix TDS7xx and TDS5xx scope.

Tektronix says:



How do I run a Signal Path Compensation (SPC) on an DPO/MSO/MDO4000 Series oscilloscope?




Question:


How do I run a Signal Path Compensation (SPC) on an DPO/MSO/MDO4000 Series oscilloscope?

Answer:


Signal Path Compensation (SPC) should be run anytime you are getting DC offsets in your signals, or your scope has moved locations and might have changed temperature, or if it's been more then a month since your last SPC. This is a standard procedure, kind of like mantinance on your car. The following video demonstrates this procedure on the MDO4000 Series scope and also shows the difference of the RF channel.

NOTE: This procedure is the same for all MSO/DPO3000 and MSO/DPO2000 Series oscilloscopes.

 



I suspect that User Cal on Agilent scope is the same as SPC on a Tektronix scope.

In fact Keysight has a video about this:




I would run the User Cal and see if it fixes the offsets.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B

[Brumby]

He paid half the money for a NOS,

True.

and he demands full warranty

I haven't seen that.  Yes, he wants some sort of warranty, but I didn't read "full" into it anywhere.

and refuses to do a self cal.

No he hasn't.  Besides, the self-cal isn't going to address the bigger question as to what the situation would be if a real fault develops ... a point that the Op has made quite clearly.

I bet he wants a new Keysight branded replacement unit for the price of a NOS.

Now you are being dramatic.

[TiN]

Brumby

So I bought the scope as brand new expecting full warranty

OP does expect full warranty for 8 year old NOS, which he bought from non-authorized supplier.
At same pace one could go buy "new" scope from ebay and start asking manufacturer about official service at manufacturers cost. Slippery road right there.

[NoisyBoy]

Guys, notice we are all bickering amongst ourselves to keep this thread at the top while the OP stays quiet and watch.  I think we are doing exactly what he wanted, let’s move on to other more interesting discussions and stop wasting our time.  He doesn’t want our help, just the publicity.

[BravoV]

Once Keysight official starting to give even a hint that they will provide the warranty as op wants, I guess I will start to purchase items from my NOS NIB items listing that I've been salivating for years, as they are still available at local here with heavy discounted price too, which was a former HP/Agilent (not Keysight) legit distributor. 

Few interesting items from my wanted shopping list .. signal analyzer, spectrum analyzer, VNA , 8.5 digits bench DMM, impedance analyzer and hell ... Agilent spectrometer similar to the one used in CSI TV series ... and many more ...

PS : For others that have similar situation as me, get ready guys, and be prepare to pull the trigger, as its all legit, and instant profit, yayyy ... 

[Brumby]

Brumby

So I bought the scope as brand new expecting full warranty

OP does expect full warranty for 8 year old NOS, which he bought from non-authorized supplier.
At same pace one could go buy "new" scope from ebay and start asking manufacturer about official service at manufacturers cost. Slippery road right there.

 

Sorry.  Mea culpa.


Edit:  Just re-read the posts.  He said he was expecting full warranty - and although it would have been wise for him to ask about it, this points to a clear failure on the part of Nortron (in my book).  If nothing was stated to the contrary, his expectation is reasonable.

[JxR]

Once Keysight official starting to give even a hint that they will provide the warranty as op wants, I guess I will start to purchase items from my NOS NIB items listing that I've been salivating for years, as they are still available at local here with heavy discounted price too, which was a former HP/Agilent (not Keysight) legit distributor. 

Few interesting items from my wanted shopping list .. signal analyzer, spectrum analyzer, VNA , 8.5 digits bench DMM, impedance analyzer and hell ... Agilent spectrometer similar to the one used in CSI TV series ... and many more ...

PS : For others that have similar situation as me, get ready guys, and be prepare to pull the trigger, as its all legit, and instant profit, yayyy ... 

Keysight already responded to the OP in this thread....

It seemed pretty clear to me that the answer was no warranty for this scope.  Daniel recommended he return the scope and repurchase from an authorized dealer.  So there doesn't seem to be anything to get excited about.

[BravoV]

Once Keysight official starting to give even a hint that they will provide the warranty as op wants, I guess I will start to purchase items from my NOS NIB items listing that I've been salivating for years, as they are still available at local here with heavy discounted price too, which was a former HP/Agilent (not Keysight) legit distributor. 

Few interesting items from my wanted shopping list .. signal analyzer, spectrum analyzer, VNA , 8.5 digits bench DMM, impedance analyzer and hell ... Agilent spectrometer similar to the one used in CSI TV series ... and many more ...

PS : For others that have similar situation as me, get ready guys, and be prepare to pull the trigger, as its all legit, and instant profit, yayyy ... 

Keysight already responded to the OP in this thread....

It seemed pretty clear to me that the answer was no warranty for this scope.  Daniel recommended he return the scope and repurchase from an authorized dealer.  So there doesn't seem to be anything to get excited about.

Well, keep pretending to be naive, innocent, ignorance on many suggestions already posted here, and at the same time as opportunist and wishful thinking too, whats wrong with that ? Beside there are handful of persistence supporters too.

Isn't this worth pursuing ? 

[JxR]

Well, keep pretending to be naive, innocent, ignorance on many suggestions already posted here, and at the same time as opportunist and wishful thinking too, whats wrong with that ? Beside there are handful of persistence supporters too.

Isn't this worth pursuing ? 

Sorry.  You did such a great job on summing up why Keysight folding and providing a full warranty on this purchase would set a terrible precedence, that I took the comment at face value. 

I'll let you get back to stirring the pot....enjoy 

[rodpp]

Hi,

I would like to leave here a feedback regarding this case.

Today I talked with a director of Nortron store, regarding the scope warranty. To sumarize:

1- Nortron was an Agilent authorized dealer in Brazil;
2- When Keysight was created, Nortron did not signed a contract with them. So Nortron never was an Keysight authorized dealer;
3- In that time, Nortron asked Agilent if they should return the Nortron stock to Agilent (as they were not authorized dealer anymore) or if they could sell the equipments to final customers and Keysight would honor the warranty;
4- According with the Nortron director, Agilent answered saying that the stock could be sold by Nortron to final customers and the warranty should be honored by Keysight;
5- The Nortron understandment, and it is the norm here in Brazil, is that the warranty period starts at the final sale invoice date;
6- Now, after Keysight refused the warranty for this scope, Nortron contacted Keysight trying to have the scope covered by the warranty. Nortron understandment is that the warranty starts at the final customer sale date, it is how it works in Brazil;
7- After some days, Keysight returned to Nortron saying that the warranty counter started when Nortron bought the equipment from Agilent (not in the final customer sale date), so the warranty was expired. And Keysight refused to reset the warranty period to the final sale date;
8- After that explanation, the Nortron director said that Nortron will honor the warrant itself.
9- Then I asked if I could try a self cal before send it to repair, as that probably should fix the DC offset problem. And if another problem occur in the warranty period, I will contact Nortron to fix it.
10- The Nortron director agreed, and said that if the self cal did not fix the problem, that I should contact the Nortron salesman to send the equipment to repair.
11- I just did the self cal, and as expected, the DC offset problem was fixed.
12- Now everything is ok, and the scope is covered by (Nortron, not Keysight) warranty.

I learn from this case, reading the comments in this thread, that each country can have very different pratices (and laws) regarding customer relationship.

Here in Brazil, always the manufacturer is in charge of the warranty. And it is enough to have a valid invoice to claim your warranty. If the seller is an authorized dealer, he can handle better the case with the manufacturer. But if he is not an authorized dealer, the manufacturer must honor the warranty anyway. In fact, in the Brazilian consumer law there is no thing like "authorized dealer". So, considering that the item is genuine, you have the invoice with all tax paid, etc, you are good and have all rights, regardless if you bought it from an authorized dealer or from any other dealer.

Thanks to all contributions and opinions!

Regards,
Rodrigo.

[sokoloff]

Great outcome Rodrigo and sincere thanks for following up with the outcome.

One question remains though. Suppose you kept the item in the box for another 2 years and then sold it to the next buyer, call him "C", on date "D" in 2021.

Does Keysight need to warranty the device from the sales date of "D"? After all, you're just as much an authorized dealer as Norton was...

Suppose instead you come up with a broken scope down the road after the warranty would have expired. Can you sell it to "C", buy it back from them on date "E", get an invoice from them, and use that invoice (dated "E") to claim a warranty from Keysight? After all, "C" is just as much an authorized dealer as you and Norton are...

[rodpp]

Great outcome Rodrigo and sincere thanks for following up with the outcome.

One question remains though. Suppose you kept the item in the box for another 2 years and then sold it to the next buyer, call him "C", on date "D" in 2021.

Does Keysight need to warranty the device from the sales date of "D"? After all, you're just as much an authorized dealer as Norton was...

Suppose instead you come up with a broken scope down the road after the warranty would have expired. Can you sell it to "C", buy it back from them on date "E", get an invoice from them, and use that invoice (dated "E") to claim a warranty from Keysight? After all, "C" is just as much an authorized dealer as you and Norton are...

Hi,

When Nortron bought it from Agilent, it was not a final user sale. There is fiscal differences, the sale nature is different, the tax is different too, and that commercial transaction must be between two companies. Because this, some distributors do not sell to final customers, for example.

When I bought it from Nortron, this sale was a final consumer sale. That sale date is the milestone for the warrant period.

So the answer is NO, Keysight do not need to honor the warranty to C starting at D date, because I bought it as a final consumer and the warranty counter was started.

The second question is NO too, same reason.

[Mr. Scram]

At least your confidence in your own assessment of your situation hasn't suffered. Not that it matters because it's all academic when Keysight says no, regardless of your actual or perceived rights.

[TheSteve]

I am glad it is working.

Next time, perhaps try the "usercal" before the "user rant."

edit - if you haven't installed the newest firmware I highly recommend you do.

[ogden]

Next time, perhaps try the usercal before the rant.

Also read Brazilian Consumer Defense Code. Manufacturer, importer, assembler together with supplier all are liable when product causes harm, but quality and warranty claims have to be handled by Supplier, in this case Norton (Article 18): "Suppliers of durable or nondurable consumer goods will answer for any quality or quantity deffects".

[rodpp]

Next time, perhaps try the usercal before the rant.

Also read Brazilian Consumer Defense Code. Manufacturer, importer, assembler together with supplier all are liable when product causes harm, but quality and warranty claims have to be handled by Supplier, in this case Norton (Article 18): "Suppliers of durable or nondurable consumer goods will answer for any quality or quantity deffects".

Please, pay attention in the Supplier definition by that law:

Art. 3. A supplier is any physical person or corporate entity, of a public or private nature, domestic or foreign, as well as other involved in the activities of production, assembly, creation, construction, transformation, importing, exporting, distribution, or commercialization of products or services.

[Mr. Scram]

Please, pay attention in the Supplier definition by that law:

Art. 3. A supplier is any physical person or corporate entity, of a public or private nature, domestic or foreign, as well as other involved in the activities of production, assembly, creation, construction, transformation, importing, exporting, distribution, or commercialization of products or services.

Until it's confirmed in court it's just an opinion. Keysight has another opinion so the answer is no.

[ogden]

Please, pay attention in the Supplier definition by that law:

Art. 3. A supplier is any physical person or corporate entity, of a public or private nature, domestic or foreign, as well as other involved in the activities of production, assembly, creation, construction, transformation, importing, exporting, distribution, or commercialization of products or services.

LOL BS. Vague definition which actually does not do any good for consumers. Try to claim your warranty in OEM factory where Keysight instruments are assembled Also read Articles 12 and 13 where Manufacturer miraculously is not Supplier anymore.

[rodpp]

Please, pay attention in the Supplier definition by that law:

Art. 3. A supplier is any physical person or corporate entity, of a public or private nature, domestic or foreign, as well as other involved in the activities of production, assembly, creation, construction, transformation, importing, exporting, distribution, or commercialization of products or services.

LOL BS. Vague definition which actually does not do any good for consumers. Try to claim your warranty in OEM factory where Keysight instruments are assembled Also read Articles 12 and 13 where Manufacturer miraculously is not Supplier anymore.

There is jurisprudence here indicating that clauses will be interpreted in the way that is most favorable to the consumer.

But, as Mr. Scram said, all that is just an opinion until it's confirmed in court...

Fortunately, it will not be necessary in this case.

Keysight refused to honor the warranty, but Nortron assumed the warranty and everything is fine now.

[2N3055]

Please, pay attention in the Supplier definition by that law:

Art. 3. A supplier is any physical person or corporate entity, of a public or private nature, domestic or foreign, as well as other involved in the activities of production, assembly, creation, construction, transformation, importing, exporting, distribution, or commercialization of products or services.

LOL BS. Vague definition which actually does not do any good for consumers. Try to claim your warranty in OEM factory where Keysight instruments are assembled Also read Articles 12 and 13 where Manufacturer miraculously is not Supplier anymore.

There is jurisprudence here indicating that clauses will be interpreted in the way that is most favorable to the consumer.

But, as Mr. Scram said, all that is just an opinion until it's confirmed in court...

Fortunately, it will not be necessary in this case.

Keysight refused to honor the warranty, but Nortron assumed the warranty and everything is fine now.

I'm glad it all ended well. And as Steve said, put new firmware ASAP, so you don't get firmware corruption and get new features..

[rsjsouza]

Rodrigo, thanks for reporting back the ourcome of this scenario and  I am glad that Nortron did a respectable thing.

My tip now: unsubscribe from this thread as people will restart the discussion and rehash all the tired points.

[ogden]

My tip now: unsubscribe from this thread as people will restart the discussion and rehash all the tired points.

My tip now: delete this thread because as we all agreed, it is up-to court to decide - Keysight is obligated to accept warranty claim in such case or not. It also means subject of this conversation is misleading at least.

[NoisyBoy]

X2

My tip now: unsubscribe from this thread as people will restart the discussion and rehash all the tired points.

My tip now: delete this thread because as we all agreed, it is up-to court to decide - Keysight is obligated to accept warranty claim in such case or not. It also means subject of this conversation is misleading at least.