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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: hopefully_reliable on February 18, 2015, 01:51:08 pm

Title: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: hopefully_reliable on February 18, 2015, 01:51:08 pm
I have just come across these through the 'find a part' section of the Keysight website, in particular
http://www.keysight.com/my/faces/fapHomePage.jspx?productNumber=34465A (http://www.keysight.com/my/faces/fapHomePage.jspx?productNumber=34465A)
http://www.keysight.com/my/faces/fapHomePage.jspx?productNumber=34470A (http://www.keysight.com/my/faces/fapHomePage.jspx?productNumber=34470A)

A quick google later and I found the prices on the Brazilian Newark
http://www.farnellnewark.com.br/searchresults.aspx?page=25&sort=0&idproducttype=0&idproductcolor=0&iddept=0&nupricerangestart=1&nupricerangeend=9999999&type=1&dskeyword=agilent (http://www.farnellnewark.com.br/searchresults.aspx?page=25&sort=0&idproducttype=0&idproductcolor=0&iddept=0&nupricerangestart=1&nupricerangeend=9999999&type=1&dskeyword=agilent)

(conversions using xe.com)
34465A - R$ 11,304.49 - US$ 3,995.37 - £2,588.80
34470A - R$ 23,459.78 - US$ 8,290.73 - £5,372.45

EDIT: As a few people have pointed out, these prices are incredibly high. Expected prices (from Dave's reply - #21) are
34465A - around $1500
34470A - less than $3000


and also a product fact sheet http://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/7/5991-2110EN.pdf (http://www.tequipment.net/assets/1/7/5991-2110EN.pdf) - which I've also attached, as I'm guessing it might disappear.

The differences over the 34461A seem to be
The higher measurement speed and the larger memory are both options (which is a bit of a shame).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: quarks on February 18, 2015, 02:08:30 pm
nice find, have never seen these before
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on February 18, 2015, 02:17:28 pm
Wow, 1uA current range  :-+  :clap:
And added cap measurement too.
Obviously designed to compete with the new Keithley DMM7510
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Maxlor on February 18, 2015, 03:26:25 pm
More detailed specs (http://www.datatec.de/shop/artikelpdf/34470a_d.pdf). If anyone needs to make space and throw out their 34461A, I'll take it  ;D
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on February 18, 2015, 03:28:22 pm
Strange strategy of the HP successor company...

These new instrument have some slight improvements over the new (budget) 34461A, but especially in relation to these new features real premium prices. (Some more memory, 2 additional current shunts, slightly better volt reference..)
Obviously, they are going back to their roots.. in former times HP stood for "High Price".

The 7 1/2 digit 34470A still has got no LTZ1000 reference inside, very obviously.
This would make absolutely sense at that level of resolution.
And also, it is as costly as the 3458A..

I wonder, which kind of volt reference they use; I doubt that an LM399H can further be selected for 16ppm/yr. stability.

I'm waiting for the complete specs, if these new instruments really make sense at these prices.


OK, there are the specs.

They claim additionally an "AUTOCAL" for these instruments.
But that function is not as powerful at all as in the 3458A!
The INL of the A/D is 2ppm and 1.5ppm only, and therefore not capable of performing a complete range autocal, as in the 3458A.
This may only compensate some T.C. drifts of the components, nothing more.

Disappointing for that price.


And there are some bugs in the specs, concerning memory depth and reading speed:

I assume, they offer optional 50000 rdgs/s maximum , but 50000 or optionally 2Mio readings memory depth (not 2Mio/s reading rate).

The 10µA and 1µA ranges are realized by higher amplification on the same 100µA shunt..as the burden goes down by factors of ten, each. Maybe they copied Daves µCurrent circuitry?

I doubt, that  they can really guarantee the same accuracy on all three ranges... spec is "typical" values for these ranges.


Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kwass on February 18, 2015, 03:50:50 pm
Wow, 1uA current range  :-+  :clap:
And added cap measurement too.
Obviously designed to compete with the new Keithley DMM7510

Looks like they're going to release firmware for the 34460A/61A to add capacitance measurement too.  Either that or they made a major mistake in the new spec sheets.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on February 18, 2015, 04:41:27 pm
Wow, 1uA current range  :-+  :clap:
And added cap measurement too.
Obviously designed to compete with the new Keithley DMM7510

Looks like they're going to release firmware for the 34460A/61A to add capacitance measurement too.  Either that or that made a major mistake in the new spec sheets.

They are due to release a new firmware version for the 34461A on 1st March (version 2.06). I have got a pre-beta version, but they have asked me to keep quiet on any additions they have added. However, they are increasing the version number from 1.10 to 2.06, so you can make what you want of that ...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on February 18, 2015, 04:51:08 pm
I wonder, which kind of volt reference they use; I doubt that an LM399H can further be selected for 16ppm/yr. stability.

Could thermally shielding the LM399, or placing it in an additional oven, significantly help with the long term stability?

The 34461A has a fan at the back which blows air directly across its LM399 voltage reference, which I've always thought was a little odd. Whilst the 34465A and 34470A both have this same fan, might they have boxed it up?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dr.diesel on February 18, 2015, 05:03:23 pm
Here's to hoping Dave ends up with one of each in the next few days!    :o
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: robrenz on February 18, 2015, 05:22:05 pm
34465A - R$ 11,304.49 - US$ 3,995.37 - £2,588.80

•better one year accuracy - for DC volts 30 ppm (65A)


8846A is 24ppm 1 year DC for $1500.00   :-//
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dr.diesel on February 18, 2015, 05:32:26 pm
34465A - R$ 11,304.49 - US$ 3,995.37 - £2,588.80

Yeah but they changed their name, they've got a couple million new stickers to pay for..     :-DD
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rodpp on February 18, 2015, 06:33:04 pm
This price is in Brazil, normally much more expensive.

In US or Europe probably it´ll be cheaper.

For example, in the same brazilian website the 34461A is R$5,798,34 or US$2,050.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KA3YAN on February 18, 2015, 07:15:59 pm
I'm totally fine sticking with my Fluke 8846A.  It might not have the snazzy color screen, but the specs are the same or superior in most aspects.  It doesn't have the extraordinarily fast max reading rate (only a mere 1000 per second) but hey, you can't have EVERYTHING.   ;D
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: ivan747 on February 18, 2015, 07:16:20 pm
This price is in Brazil, normally much more expensive.

For some context, iPhones used to be sold officially in Brazil for almost twice the price. Playstation 4 launch price? US$1400 vs. US$400 on Amazon. Brasilians often complain about this here in the EEVBlog forum. It's because of import taxes  :-- It's so bad, actually, that Apple started manufacturing iPhones in Brazil just to stay competitive in that market.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on February 18, 2015, 09:09:07 pm
And also, it is as costly as the 3458A..

Rumor has it they were working in a 3458A replacement, but this doesn't seem to be it. The same price is a bit crazy though.

Quote
The 10µA and 1µA ranges are realized by higher amplification on the same 100µA shunt..as the burden goes down by factors of ten, each. Maybe they copied Daves µCurrent circuitry?

I was thinking it's likely to be an amp as well.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on February 18, 2015, 09:23:55 pm
Here's to hoping Dave ends up with one of each in the next few days!    :o

Haven't heard a thing.
I'm getting the new Keithley one though, that will be interesting to look inside.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Vgkid on February 18, 2015, 09:51:04 pm
When I saw the price for the 34470A, I thought"mighty close to the pricepoint for the 3458A".
for the 34470A They would need to drop the price by half, in order to match the newest Keithley.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on February 18, 2015, 11:53:52 pm
The 34470A looks interesting but for that price I think I really would buy a good working 3458A
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: es on February 19, 2015, 01:21:13 am
I'm guessing the pricing should be around $1500 and $3100 for the 34465A and 34470A respectively.

If you look at the price of other Keysight gear at the Brazilian site in the first post, the conversion rate is about 8 times.

For example, the MSOX3104T is listed at R$ 118.353,46 while it's $15,400 in the US.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rodpp on February 19, 2015, 05:04:33 am
The conversion rate in that site is, let me say, unreliable.

DSOX3014A - R$12,821.78 - US$3,950
MDO3014 - R$13,949.20 - US$3,990
34461A -R$5,798.34 - US$1.100
Fluke 87V - R$2,490.00 - US$340
U1733C - R$1,099.56 - US$432

US$ prices from tequipment.com

So, it ranges from 2.5 to 8.

My guess is that the conversion rate will be similar to the 34461A, about 5.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on February 19, 2015, 05:14:13 am
Is it me or that "peak" function on this screenshot doesn't exist in the current firmware?

There is also the "Time" option instead of just NPLC.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on February 19, 2015, 05:30:51 am
I have it on very good authority that those prices are completely wrong.
The 34465A will be around US$1500
The 34470A will be <US$3000
Options will cost extra, in the order of hundreds of dollars.
And yes, I might be able to get one soon for teardown.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on February 19, 2015, 05:47:26 am
Another note: the 34465A's DCV specs are given as 30ppm (reading), but only for Cal Temp +/-2C vs. +/-5C. So without ACAL, it actually has worse specs than the 34461A outside of the +/-2C range.

So the improved baseline accuracy of the 34465A vs. 34461A is more creative accounting than anything else. ACAL improves the temp coefficient, but the base spec is basically the same.

The 34470A quotes the DCV spec at +/- 5C.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on February 19, 2015, 06:33:31 am
Dave, since you have bunch of 6.5+ meters already, might consider to have comparison between them in same conditions, using DC standard and foil resistors.
Something like you did with handhelds, roundup of bench meters, since there is no such material on web usually.
Your MV106 should be stable within 10ppm if ambient temperature kept +-2°C.

Interesting to know, that Agile...doh..Keysight offers (http://www.keysight.com/my/faces/partDetail.jspx?partNumber=34470-66303&imageStatus=NO&_afrLoop=1811582947108000&_afrWindowMode=0&_afrWindowId=15wz1u4ozd_1#%40%3F_afrWindowId%3D15wz1u4ozd_1%26_afrLoop%3D1811582947108000%26imageStatus%3DNO%26partNumber%3D34470-66303%26_afrWindowMode%3D0%26_adf.ctrl-state%3D15wz1u4ozd_22) voltage reference PCB (if PCA stands for PCB Assembly) for $334 USD.
This price is enough to allow using LTZ1000 with few VPG foils :)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: hopefully_reliable on February 19, 2015, 12:26:15 pm
I have it on very good authority that those prices are completely wrong.
The 34465A will be around US$1500
The 34470A will be <US$3000
Options will cost extra, in the order of hundreds of dollars.
And yes, I might be able to get one soon for teardown.

I thought they were high, but I didn't check the prices for known products - sorry everyone. But I have changed the first post to include your figures, so no one gets confused.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kwass on February 19, 2015, 02:53:39 pm

I have it on very good authority that those prices are completely wrong.
The 34465A will be around US$1500
The 34470A will be <US$3000
Options will cost extra, in the order of hundreds of dollars.
And yes, I might be able to get one soon for teardown.

Yes, Techni-tool who virtually never discounts has the 34465A for $1395, and the 34470A for $2895.

http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3446 (http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3446)

http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3447 (http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3447)

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sbampato12 on February 19, 2015, 03:29:39 pm
This price is in Brazil, normally much more expensive.

For some context, iPhones used to be sold officially in Brazil for almost twice the price. Playstation 4 launch price? US$1400 vs. US$400 on Amazon. Brasilians often complain about this here in the EEVBlog forum. It's because of import taxes  :-- It's so bad, actually, that Apple started manufacturing iPhones in Brazil just to stay competitive in that market.

Here we have giants taxes, but it is not all. We are very kindly (dumb) to pay a lot more for things. Even with Apple manufacturing iPhones here, they still the same price. With Playstation, they got a lot more 'real' values here now, but as always, a lot more than other countries. Even cars produced here, costs half price in neighbors countries.

About Farnell website, when they don't have any stock here, they prices are crazy, always showing up to 3 or 4 times the actual prices. Even when they have stock itens, I always try by email or phone, to get a 'real' price. I don't know why! :-//
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sbampato12 on February 19, 2015, 03:35:40 pm
The conversion rate in that site is, let me say, unreliable.

DSOX3014A - R$12,821.78 - US$3,950
MDO3014 - R$13,949.20 - US$3,990
34461A -R$5,798.34 - US$1.100
Fluke 87V - R$2,490.00 - US$340
U1733C - R$1,099.56 - US$432

US$ prices from tequipment.com

The Fluke 87V here, as you could see, is in 'normal' range of value. You could see that, even with taxes, and reseller profit, still very high.
I don't know why. One thing to think, the agilent U1272 or U1273 are about R$1000,00~R$1500,00, way less than fluke. I don't know how they calculate brazilan values...  :scared:

So, it ranges from 2.5 to 8.

My guess is that the conversion rate will be similar to the 34461A, about 5.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: VoltaicPile on February 22, 2015, 12:26:02 am
Great news! I was wondering why they had not fixed the bugs in the 34461a yet.  Seems like they were very busy with these news models and the update to the 34461a, while slow, will include more than bug fixes.  Keysight is making a good first impression after the transition.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: DJ on February 23, 2015, 06:21:09 pm

I have it on very good authority that those prices are completely wrong.
The 34465A will be around US$1500
The 34470A will be <US$3000
Options will cost extra, in the order of hundreds of dollars.
And yes, I might be able to get one soon for teardown.

Yes, Techni-tool who virtually never discounts has the 34465A for $1395, and the 34470A for $2895.

http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3446 (http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3446)

http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3447 (http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3447)

Techni-tool appears to have scrubbed those pages.

Any other confirmation or delivery date information?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Shim on February 23, 2015, 06:47:53 pm
They will be available (at least in North America) in the beginning of March. Some distributors have stock already. I am working on trying to get a demo this week to compare it to the 34461A that I still can return. The guy I am dealing with says they have 3, none of them being spoken for, and can sell them on the 2nd.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: teddy529 on February 23, 2015, 09:34:04 pm
They will be available (at least in North America) in the beginning of March. Some distributors have stock already. I am working on trying to get a demo this week to compare it to the 34461A that I still can return. The guy I am dealing with says they have 3, none of them being spoken for, and can sell them on the 2nd.

Looking forward  ;)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on February 23, 2015, 09:36:32 pm
Apparently I have one practically on the truck...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on February 23, 2015, 09:41:43 pm
Apparently I have one practically on the truck...

A Keithley, or an HP (successor)?

 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on February 23, 2015, 09:43:37 pm
Buy one DMM 34461A at begin of january, I would be coming end of this month or beginning of March,  :rant:  :rant:

Regards
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: teddy529 on February 24, 2015, 05:15:29 pm
Apparently I have one practically on the truck...

A Keithley, or an HP (successor)?

same question here
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on February 26, 2015, 09:41:29 am
New brochure from  Keysight, 34465A - 34470A included
Regards

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-5315EN.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-5315EN.pdf)



Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on February 26, 2015, 10:05:48 am
A Keithley, or an HP (successor)?

The 34470A and the Keithley actually. Not the same truck, I think the keithley will take a while.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on February 26, 2015, 10:07:57 am
New brochure from  Keysight, 34465A - 34470A included
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-5315EN.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-5315EN.pdf)

Hey, what's with that U3606A/U3606B ?
A 5.5 digit meter and 30W PSU in the one unit, is that new too?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on February 26, 2015, 10:15:05 am
Hey, what's with that U3606A/U3606B ?
A 5.5 digit meter and 30W PSU in the one unit, is that new too?

Ah, seems not.
Maybe an old escort design?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Noise Floor on February 27, 2015, 05:58:48 am

I have it on very good authority that those prices are completely wrong.
The 34465A will be around US$1500
The 34470A will be <US$3000
Options will cost extra, in the order of hundreds of dollars.
And yes, I might be able to get one soon for teardown.

Yes, Techni-tool who virtually never discounts has the 34465A for $1395, and the 34470A for $2895.

http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3446 (http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3446)

http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3447 (http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3447)

Techni-tool appears to have scrubbed those pages.

Any other confirmation or delivery date information?

The model numbers are easily found on the Keysight site, so looks like it is fully public now.

7.5 digit - 34470A (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2520154-pn-34470A/digital-multimeter-7-digit-performance-truevolt-dmm?cc=US&lc=eng) $2890
6.5 digit - 34465A (http://www.keysight.com/en/pd-2519397-pn-34465A/digital-multimeter-6-digit-performance-truevolt-dmm?cc=US&lc=eng) $1395
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on February 27, 2015, 07:09:38 am
The model numbers are easily found on the Keysight site, so looks like it is fully public now.

In addition to the datasheet already posted, there is a brand new user manual including all 4 DMMs:
http://www.keysight.com/main/redirector.jspx?action=ref&cname=EDITORIAL&ckey=2345839&lc=eng&cc=US&nfr=-536902435.1119280.00 (http://www.keysight.com/main/redirector.jspx?action=ref&cname=EDITORIAL&ckey=2345839&lc=eng&cc=US&nfr=-536902435.1119280.00)

And a series of videos dedicated to the features of the 65/70 (videos amusingly dated 2015-03-03)
http://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2569771&nid=-536902435.1119280.00&id=2569771 (http://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2569771&nid=-536902435.1119280.00&id=2569771)

No new 60/61 firmware posted though.

There are more feature upgrades in the 65/70 and updates in the 60/61 than meet the eye. From a quick look at the new user manual:

* Datalog from front panel (65/70 only).
* Digitizing from front panel (65/70 with $400 DIG option)
* Advanced triggering (65/70 with $400 DIG option)
* Zoom/pan/cursors in datalog and digitizing modes (oscilloscope!) (65/70 only)
* Histogram cursors (65/70 only)
* More data memory (65/70 only)
* Optional 2MB memory (65/70 only with $250 MEM option)
* Aperture time instead of NPLC (65/70 only)
* ACAL. The manual does not exclude the 60/61 from ACAL even though the datasheet does (ALL - NEW for 60/61- to be confirmed).
* Extended calibration status window with ACAL-related info (ALL - NEW for 60/61 TBC)
* 1uA and 10uA ranges (65/70 only)
* Resistance offset compensation (looks like the U1272A Smart Ohms) (65/70 only)
* Resistance low power mode (lower test current to reduce self-heating) (65/70 only)
* 1GOhm range (65/70 only)
* Capacitance measurement (ALL - NEW for 60/61)
* Thermocouple temp measurements (65/70 only)
* Temperature low power setting (65/70 only)
* Smoothing filter (65/70 only)
* More math scaling: % and Mx-B (65/70 only)
* Partial 2nd measurement display (e.g. ACV while DCV primary) (NEW for 60/61)
* Full 2nd measurement display - includes pre-math and 16us peak stats (65/70 only)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on February 27, 2015, 09:17:55 am
* Capacitance measurement (ALL - NEW for 60/61)

Existing 61 owners can get cap measurement with a firmware upgrade?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on February 27, 2015, 09:56:46 am
* Capacitance measurement (ALL - NEW for 60/61)

Existing 61 owners can get cap measurement with a firmware upgrade?

Yes, email from Keysight

Regards

Capacitance measurements with the 34461A will require an upgrade to firmware revision 2.07. Revision 2.07 should be available on the Web around March 16th.  You can upgrade the firmware yourself by downloading the firmware update utility that is also on the web, along with the firmware file itself.

Note that after you upgrade the firmware, the capacitance function is accessed by pressing:
Shift ? Freq

Older instruments such as yours will not have the     symbol above the Freq key as the newer instruments will.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on February 27, 2015, 01:01:51 pm

Capacitance measurements with the 34461A will require an upgrade to firmware revision 2.07. Revision 2.07 should be available on the Web around March 16th.  You can upgrade the firmware yourself by downloading the firmware update utility that is also on the web, along with the firmware file itself.

Note that after you upgrade the firmware, the capacitance function is accessed by pressing:
Shift ? Freq

Older instruments such as yours will not have the     symbol above the Freq key as the newer instruments will.


They are pushing the release date back by a fortnight? :palm: Well hopefully it will be available before the end of March ...

* ACAL. The manual does not exclude the 60/61 from ACAL even though the datasheet does (ALL - NEW for 60/61- to be confirmed).
* Extended calibration status window with ACAL-related info (ALL - NEW for 60/61 TBC)

ACAL is not part of the pre-beta firmware, but the new status window is.

* Partial 2nd measurement display (e.g. ACV while DCV primary) (NEW for 60/61)

The second measurements are:

For the AC second measurements, the DC measurement stops whilst the AC measurement is done. Everything else is done at the same time.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rsivan on February 28, 2015, 11:03:31 am
Cool for 34461A owners!,I got mine after I watched the Dave review, very happy with this dmm , may someone make a little sticker with Cap symbol to put above Freq key? just an idea.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: radioFlash on March 02, 2015, 06:12:51 pm
Keysight has now made their official press release:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150302005205/en/TRADE-NEWS-Keysight-Technologies-Introduces-Next-Generation-6%C2%BD#.VPSmKTTF8n4 (http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150302005205/en/TRADE-NEWS-Keysight-Technologies-Introduces-Next-Generation-6%C2%BD#.VPSmKTTF8n4)

The 34465A is priced at $1,395 and the 34470A is priced at $2,890 USD as previously reported.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Shim on March 02, 2015, 07:07:26 pm
Did not get a demo unit. They were spoken for until the 9th. Just ordered one instead. Picked it up an hour ago! :-DMM
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Shim on March 03, 2015, 03:23:49 am
Just lit it up for the first time, and man I am glad this got released while I still could return the Rigol and the 61A! It was not much more than the 61A either.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JohnnyBerg on March 03, 2015, 08:15:40 am
Just lit it up for the first time, and man I am glad this got released while I still could return the Rigol and the 61A! It was not much more than the 61A either.

Silent hint : we'd love to see some foto's and hear some first imperssions  ;)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 03, 2015, 08:22:11 am
Silent hint : we'd love to see some foto's and hear some first imperssions  ;)

+1
Which of the two models did you get and how much did you pay?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 03, 2015, 08:35:44 am
UK pricing isn't too bad either, at least, not compared to the 34461A - but true to form, Keysight have made some of the best features optional, and padded the price considerably.

From Farnell, the basic 34461A is £709, and the 34465A is £901 (both plus VAT).

Want to use the digitiser feature, though? That's another £258.
Access to the full memory of the device? A further £161. (Seriously... memory chips are NOT expensive these days!)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sbampato12 on March 03, 2015, 12:31:53 pm
Want to use the digitiser feature, though? That's another £258.
Access to the full memory of the device? A further £161. (Seriously... memory chips are NOT expensive these days!)

The point is, it is not the memory chips, they are already there probably. You are paying for the development, or something like that...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 03, 2015, 12:49:17 pm
I don't mind paying for features that take time and effort to develop. I spent about £600 on serial decoding for my Agilent scope, and it was well worth it.

Enabling the use of memory that's already there is just removing an arbitrary limit, though. There's no design effort, no innovation.

They've done something similar with their BenchVue software. The basic version is free, which is great, but if you want to data log for more than 1 hour, you have to buy the 'pro' version for another £128 (and even more, if you want to log data from other types of instrument).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 03, 2015, 01:54:25 pm
Want to use the digitiser feature, though? That's another £258.
Access to the full memory of the device? A further £161. (Seriously... memory chips are NOT expensive these days!)

The point is, it is not the memory chips, they are already there probably. You are paying for the development, or something like that...

The digitiser and memory option are just software keys (like the NISPOM option), the hardware is exactly the same.

I don't mind paying for features that take time and effort to develop. I spent about £600 on serial decoding for my Agilent scope, and it was well worth it.

Enabling the use of memory that's already there is just removing an arbitrary limit, though. There's no design effort, no innovation.

They've done something similar with their BenchVue software. The basic version is free, which is great, but if you want to data log for more than 1 hour, you have to buy the 'pro' version for another £128 (and even more, if you want to log data from other types of instrument).
I agree - we shouldn't have arbitrary memory limits in modern devices.

I am a little annoyed with the CSV output on the 34461A, despite having an RTC, it just provides a list of readings. From looking at the manual, the equivalent in the 65/70A can have meta data at the top, saying when the data started and the gap between measurements. But that haven't done it so you can grab the CSV off the meter and graph it straight away (with the time on the x-axis), which seems to be a bit of an oversight.

I tried the first version of bench vue and I didn't think very much of it - it just didn't seem to work very well. And I think that is the feedback they got about, as they have overhauled a lot of it, with the new pro version being there for them to recoup their losses. For multimeters, the pro version is needed for limit testing, the histogram display and greater than 1 hour recording. Whilst I can understand limit testing being in a pro version, the whole advantage of the software is easy data capture over reasonable periods of time, so to limit it to less than an hour seems stupid. For the £128 I would much prefer to whip something up in python (especially considering I already have the USB TMC interface implemented).

They also do an iphone / android app, which I thought was a bit of a strange idea - I can't see many people using it except at trade shows. I tried the original version (when it was ios only) and it was awful, it crashed so often and displayed results incorrectly. But the old version communicated directly with the multimeter over a network (wifi-router-ethernet). The new version (with both ios and android support) requires a computer to be connected to the multimeter, with the app talking to the computer, which, to me at least, seems to negate any advantage of the app.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Howardlong on March 03, 2015, 03:26:12 pm
I'll test the water here.

What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?

I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.

Please educate me!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sbampato12 on March 03, 2015, 04:48:35 pm
I don't mind paying for features that take time and effort to develop. I spent about £600 on serial decoding for my Agilent scope, and it was well worth it.

Enabling the use of memory that's already there is just removing an arbitrary limit, though. There's no design effort, no innovation.

They've done something similar with their BenchVue software. The basic version is free, which is great, but if you want to data log for more than 1 hour, you have to buy the 'pro' version for another £128 (and even more, if you want to log data from other types of instrument).

Yep, I agree with you, I was just pointing that.
On other side, doing this kind of thing, they could (it is only a possibility) get the hardware cheaper since it is one hardware to all. The people that really need those extra options, and buy, helps (more) to pay the development of the product for all. One way, and only just one (  :) ) to see it, is, as hobbyst or small company you are capable to buy a little bit better product, if they charge more in the extras. And if you need that extra, then, you PROBABLY doesn't matter to pay for it (or choose other brand).

Personally, I don't like to know that exist a lot of memory avaliable inside my gear, and I do not could use..... And, for me, as a bench DMM, they could apply all extras as standards, see how many years they have the 34401 or 3548, so many years you dissolve your costs of development, and get over others brands (perhaps) by some capabilityes.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sbampato12 on March 03, 2015, 04:50:32 pm
I'll test the water here.

What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?

I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.

Please educate me!

If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Howardlong on March 03, 2015, 04:58:32 pm
I'll test the water here.

What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?

I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.

Please educate me!

If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.

But what are those cases?  :-//
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: mrflibble on March 03, 2015, 05:30:56 pm
If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.

But what are those cases?  :-//
Measuring the long term stability of that new Calibratory D-105 DC Precision Voltage Reference Standard. ;)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Corporate666 on March 03, 2015, 05:33:17 pm
I'll test the water here.

What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?

I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.

Please educate me!

If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.

But what are those cases?  :-//

Well, testing voltage and current references for one.

Or what if you have an application where you're using a high quality ADC to measure something and you want to check your results in testing before releasing something to the field?  Or for calibrating a device using an ADC prior to shipment.  Or anytime that having a more accurate result is valuable... light sensing, temperature sensing, or whatever.

I don't think there is any parallel to audiophoolery, because an 8.5 digit DMM will actually have that level of resolution and accuracy, whereas audiophoolery is about expensive products that don't actually do anything at all. 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LabSpokane on March 03, 2015, 05:40:04 pm
Speaking of strange options, does anyone know if the LAN port is enabled or disabled by default on the 34465A?  Keysight says yes. Testequity says no. Keysight does not respond to inquiries except to forward me to Microlease, which I find mildly irritating. Yeah, I'm a one man band with no volume , but this is a simple question. :-/

=============================================================
The forum's resident Keysight lurker saw my question and asked an engineer.  Turns out that the LAN port is enabled as part of the base price unit for the 34461/65/70A. 

:)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LabSpokane on March 03, 2015, 05:42:51 pm
Is it OK for us to *not* have another debate on the merits of digits?  Just when you thought that horse gave its last whinny...  :palm:
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 03, 2015, 05:56:21 pm
Speaking of strange options, does anyone know if the LAN port is enabled or disabled by default on the 34465A?  Keysight says yes. Testequity says no. Keysight does not respond to inquiries except to forward me to Microlease, which I find mildly irritating. Yeah, I'm a one man band with no volume , but this is a simple question. :-/

If by enabled you mean it is not an option, then yes - to my knowledge you only have to pay extra for it on the 34460A (where the probes are also an optional extra).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 03, 2015, 06:16:41 pm
The only time I've used all the digits on my 6.5 digit meter is to observe the resistivity of copper increasing with temperature. I did some testing on a power cable a couple of years ago, and it was quite interesting to see the rate of change of current with time as the cable warmed up. A meter with less resolution wouldn't have shown it nearly so clearly.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: teddy529 on March 03, 2015, 07:43:17 pm
BenchVue iPhone/Android version is just a joke... |O

and on the memory size thing -> |O
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Howardlong on March 03, 2015, 10:04:32 pm
I'll test the water here.

What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?

I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.

Please educate me!

If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.

But what are those cases?  :-//

Well, testing voltage and current references for one.

Or what if you have an application where you're using a high quality ADC to measure something and you want to check your results in testing before releasing something to the field?  Or for calibrating a device using an ADC prior to shipment.  Or anytime that having a more accurate result is valuable... light sensing, temperature sensing, or whatever.

I don't think there is any parallel to audiophoolery, because an 8.5 digit DMM will actually have that level of resolution and accuracy, whereas audiophoolery is about expensive products that don't actually do anything at all.

What I was trying to understand though were the practical end uses. So, what practical end user device would that ADC be in for that you need that level of absolute accuracy, other than another DMM or voltmeter?

For audio or RF, for example, I wouldn't be using a DMM to measure the performance of an ADC.

Sorry, I am not trying to be difficult, I am just genuinely trying to understand what practical use cases there are for such a device other than "because you can", which is of course an option.

As far as I understand there are very limited real practical uses for such a device, but they will look nice on the bench.

In fact I was expecting the answer to be more along the lines of tracing trends rather than absolute measurement, but even then I would expect the applications to be rather limited.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: georges80 on March 03, 2015, 10:34:50 pm
The Fluke 8845A that I have was originally purchased for its very low current measuring capability versus a typical hand held meter.

So, at least in my case the 6 1/2 digits wasn't nearly as important as the ability to measure nA accurately. i.e. bench meters of this caliber have other features that come 'for free' that may be more important in the purchase decision that the number of digits.

I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it :)

cheers,
george.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Howardlong on March 03, 2015, 10:38:20 pm

So, at least in my case the 6 1/2 digits wasn't nearly as important as the ability to measure nA accurately.

I can completely understand that, that makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on March 03, 2015, 11:02:57 pm
I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it

Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 03, 2015, 11:19:16 pm
One thing I've found a 6.5 digit multimeter really useful is measuring the current of a microcontroller. Not because it was drawing a tiny amount, but because the difference between the burden voltages of adjacent ranges was enough that it triggered the micro's brown out logic. With the 6.5 digits being enough to give a decent level of precision on the higher range.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Tom45 on March 03, 2015, 11:27:54 pm
Anyone know who has the 34465A in stock in the US?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: georges80 on March 03, 2015, 11:34:17 pm
I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it

Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.

Yep, I guess we'll all be doing slow discharge tests of batteries next to justify our 6 1/2 digit meters :) I work with battery powered designs all the time, haven't seen the need for measuring battery discharge with a 6 1/2 digit meter yet. An electronic load with logging to a laptop has been much more useful for my use when characterising a battery.

I have a 6 1/2 digit bench meter (got it free), use it occasionally, but certainly wouldn't rush out to buy one and I am designing/working with electronics every day. I agree that there are 'some' applications where it is needed, but I'll stick to my original claim that only a small fraction of users actually NEED one.

cheers,
george.


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: mikeselectricstuff on March 03, 2015, 11:37:44 pm

Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.
Haven't tried it but I wonder if the effect of temperature variations is more than that of discharge by the time you get to the 6th digit...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: DJ on March 04, 2015, 12:28:22 am
Low load battery drain measurements by voltage are very useful. Especially for things running months and years, vs hours or days.

The 34465a looks like the one for me. Keysight's list of distributors and resellers could use some tweaking.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: G0HZU on March 04, 2015, 01:44:47 am
I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it

Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.

Yep, I guess we'll all be doing slow discharge tests of batteries next to justify our 6 1/2 digit meters :) I work with battery powered designs all the time, haven't seen the need for measuring battery discharge with a 6 1/2 digit meter yet. An electronic load with logging to a laptop has been much more useful for my use when characterising a battery.

I have a 6 1/2 digit bench meter (got it free), use it occasionally, but certainly wouldn't rush out to buy one and I am designing/working with electronics every day. I agree that there are 'some' applications where it is needed, but I'll stick to my original claim that only a small fraction of users actually NEED one.

cheers,
george.

Agreed. I've worked in design labs for over 25 years and worked alongside hundreds of talented engineers across RF/HW/SW/DSP designing all manner of products in the defence industry and it's extremely rare to see a 6.5 digit DMM being used in our labs. We have loads of very expensive test
gear but the DMM isn't seen as anything special and is just seen as a dull and boring accessory and we  get by just fine with 3.5 to 5 digit H/H models.

In the test dept things are different and there are quite a few high end DMMs. some in ATE racks and some are on test benches where they have a definite status appeal.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LabSpokane on March 04, 2015, 02:00:01 am
Anyone know who has the 34465A in stock in the US?

TestEquity and MicroLease both claim to have current stock.  Best price is MicroLease.  Fastest delivery for me is usually TestEquity.  I'm probably going to sell one of my 34461As and upgrade if anyone is interested. 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on March 04, 2015, 03:25:45 am
Haven't tried it but I wonder if the effect of temperature variations is more than that of discharge by the time you get to the 6th digit...

Generally not, no. The extra resolution lets you easily see rate of change when your load varies too, you can physically see ti counting quicker, it's a very useful and gives you a good intuitive feel for what's going on.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on March 04, 2015, 03:31:40 am
Agreed. I've worked in design labs for over 25 years and worked alongside hundreds of talented engineers across RF/HW/SW/DSP designing all manner of products in the defence industry and it's extremely rare to see a 6.5 digit DMM being used in our labs. We have loads of very expensive test
gear but the DMM isn't seen as anything special and is just seen as a dull and boring accessory and we  get by just fine with 3.5 to 5 digit H/H models.

I've found the opposite. Every good lab I've worked in has had a high resolution bench meter. We've always been big on production testing though were such bench meters are commonplace.
But again, it's one of those thing that you often don't know how useful it is until you have one to hand for a certain job. If a lab already has half a dozen decent meters, then it's hard to think you might need a good bench meter.
Many times though I've been without the high res bench meter and along comes a requirement and scream when it's not available.
Also, they have not traditionally been cheap.
If I was setting up a new lab here then I'd certainly spring the $1K for the 6.5 digit Agilent or less for the Rigol.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Tom45 on March 04, 2015, 04:09:20 am
Besides Test Equity and Microlease, I see that Newark is now listing quantities on hand for the new meters.

For the various Keysight bench meters, old and new quantities on hand are:

34461A: 43
34465A: 50
34470A: 10
3458A:    7

So they expect to sell 5 34465A to each 34470A.

When I contacted TEquipement about the 34465A, the response was essentially: huh? They later got back to me saying it would take 4 to 6 weeks to get one.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Shim on March 04, 2015, 05:27:27 am
I returned my 61A which I paid $1075 and got the 65A for $1340. Both $CDN

I like the fact that the 65 can use thermocouples for temperature. I have 2. My Fluke 289 came with one and got another with the free promo test lead set when I bought it.

The 2nd display is great. I am doing audio product development and if using the dB scaling feature, you can display frequency or the actual voltage reading. The 65 also has full statistics when reading in dB, which the 61 did not (it only had min, max, and if think span, but no avg).

Been long day, haven't played with it more than a few minutes so far. More in the next few days.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: NANDBlog on March 04, 2015, 09:23:41 am
I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it

Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.

Yep, I guess we'll all be doing slow discharge tests of batteries next to justify our 6 1/2 digit meters :) I work with battery powered designs all the time, haven't seen the need for measuring battery discharge with a 6 1/2 digit meter yet. An electronic load with logging to a laptop has been much more useful for my use when characterising a battery.

I have a 6 1/2 digit bench meter (got it free), use it occasionally, but certainly wouldn't rush out to buy one and I am designing/working with electronics every day. I agree that there are 'some' applications where it is needed, but I'll stick to my original claim that only a small fraction of users actually NEED one.

cheers,
george.

Agreed. I've worked in design labs for over 25 years and worked alongside hundreds of talented engineers across RF/HW/SW/DSP designing all manner of products in the defence industry and it's extremely rare to see a 6.5 digit DMM being used in our labs. We have loads of very expensive test
gear but the DMM isn't seen as anything special and is just seen as a dull and boring accessory and we  get by just fine with 3.5 to 5 digit H/H models.

In the test dept things are different and there are quite a few high end DMMs. some in ATE racks and some are on test benches where they have a definite status appeal.
When you design something where the specification said 0.0x% or 0.00x% it is quite essential to have a meter like this, or even a 3458A. I like the one we have at work a lot. You can measure stuff you never even imagined it is even possible. Like you have a solid ground plane, but it is possible to measure the uV of voltage drops across it. If you ever worked with a 16 bits or more having one is essential.
Now, the 34470A seems like really a nice unit. I had a lot of trouble getting the 3458A to make trend charts, it requires a running network, PC, Ethernet-GPIB bridge a submarine and a spaceship to work. While I found it on the 34461 useless due to the inaccuracy of the meter, this is much better.
I'm also interested how did they make the good old artefact calibration in the meters.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JohnnyBerg on March 04, 2015, 09:46:16 am
I remember back in the early 70's as we wanted to get telephone, and my father said: what do we need a telephone for?

Same with a X.5 digit meter: you don't know what you're missing, until you have one :)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Howardlong on March 04, 2015, 10:36:00 am
I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it

Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.

Initially I had this vision of a $3k DMM being tied up to a battery for weeks/months taking a reading once an hour or so, or am I misunderstanding?

Is it that you can see the self-discharge (or slow discharge) over a much shorter period, say a day or two, and extrapolate?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 04, 2015, 10:47:45 am

I'm also interested how did they make the good old artefact calibration in the meters.


You mean the AUTOCAL feature of the 3458A?

That is NOT implemented in the new '465A and'470A, quite obviously, although they also call it AUTOCAL.

If you have a look in the manual for these new meters, service / calibration section, you will note, that these instruments both have to be calibrated in the usual manner, i.e. by individual Cardinal Points for each mode and for each range.

They may only correct for some internal temperature drifts of amplifiers, what they call AUTOCAL here, but the A/D is far too bad (nonlinear) to realize a real / full artefact calibration, by only two references.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: NANDBlog on March 04, 2015, 11:08:19 am

I'm also interested how did they make the good old artefact calibration in the meters.


You mean the AUTOCAL feature of the 3458A?

That is NOT implemented in the new '465A and'470A, quite obviously, although they also call it AUTOCAL.

If you have a look in the manual for these new meters, service / calibration section, you will note, that these instruments both have to calibrated in the usual manner, i.e. by individual Cardinal Points for each mode and for each range.

They may only correct for some internal temperature drifts of amplifiers, what they call AUTOCAL here, but the A/D is far too bad (nonlinear) to realize a real / full artefact calibration, by only two references.

Frank
I dont know, is it? For sure, they call it the same way. The manual said it takes 20-30 seconds to do this, it takes several minutes on the 3458A, because the 1000 NPLC on the 3458A, while the xx65 and 70 are 100NPLC. We need to see a service manual, because the user manual is missing the details. Maybe after the teardown it will be more clear. Maybe Dave should cover this if he makes a review of the meters or ask HP/Agilent/Keysight to clarify.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 04, 2015, 11:20:04 am
I dont know, is it? For sure, they call it the same way. The manual said it takes 20-30 seconds to do this, it takes several minutes on the 3458A, because the 1000 NPLC on the 3458A, while the xx65 and 70 are 100NPLC. We need to see a service manual, because the user manual is missing the details. Maybe after the teardown it will be more clear. Maybe Dave should cover this if he makes a review of the meters or ask HP/Agilent/Keysight to clarify.

This manual is already available, that is document 34460-90901.pdf.
This manual now contains special chapters for 34465A and 34470A, also describing their calibration routines, see snapshot from the DCV section.

Therefore, no artefact calibration!
See page 527,  a Fluke 5270A is required, 10V and 10k artefacts won't do the job.

The A/D is only 1 .. 1.5ppm linear, which may correct gain 10 errors in the order of 10..15 ppm only, impossible to achieve a full autocal calibration. (compare that to 0.02ppm linearity of the HP3458A) 


Then , the third indicator is in the specs.

All ranges diverge over time, i.e. the uncertainty gap between two distinct ranges increases over time.

On the 3458A, this gap is always constant, even after 1 year, as this instrument corrects all ratio uncertainties to the 24h specification, every time AUTOCAL is engaged.

Frank
Title: Keysight's 34465A/34470A volt references
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 04, 2015, 12:24:13 pm
Thinking a little bit further about the 10V DCV drift specifications (most stable range) I come to the conclusion, that the 34465A will probably have an LM399H reference inside, (20ppm/year drift), and the 34470A will probably have the LTZ1000A reference of the 3458A (8ppm/year drift).

As the operational ambient temperature is also specified for 55°C, they again have to run the references on about 90°C oven temperature.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: NANDBlog on March 04, 2015, 01:51:01 pm
I dont know, is it? For sure, they call it the same way. The manual said it takes 20-30 seconds to do this, it takes several minutes on the 3458A, because the 1000 NPLC on the 3458A, while the xx65 and 70 are 100NPLC. We need to see a service manual, because the user manual is missing the details. Maybe after the teardown it will be more clear. Maybe Dave should cover this if he makes a review of the meters or ask HP/Agilent/Keysight to clarify.

This manual is already available, that is document 34460-90901.pdf.
This manual now contains special chapters for 34465A and 34470A, also describing their calibration routines, see snapshot from the DCV section.

Therefore, no artefact calibration!
See page 527,  a Fluke 5270A is required, 10V and 10k artefacts won't do the job.

The A/D is only 1 .. 1.5ppm linear, which may correct gain 10 errors in the order of 10..15 ppm only, impossible to achieve a full autocal calibration. (compare that to 0.02ppm linearity of the HP3458A) 


Then , the third indicator is in the specs.

All ranges diverge over time, i.e. the uncertainty gap between two distinct ranges increases over time.

On the 3458A, this gap is always constant, even after 1 year, as this instrument corrects all ratio uncertainties to the 24h specification, every time AUTOCAL is engaged.

Frank
You are right. The calibration process still contains a lot more steps than what you would need for artefact. We should see some block diagrams, otherwise we have no idea what is going on inside the meter when we press the button.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 04, 2015, 01:55:09 pm
One thing I've found a 6.5 digit multimeter really useful is measuring the current of a microcontroller. Not because it was drawing a tiny amount, but because the difference between the burden voltages of adjacent ranges was enough that it triggered the micro's brown out logic. With the 6.5 digits being enough to give a decent level of precision on the higher range.

This is something I hope to now be able to do with reasonable accuracy. I design a lot of battery powered products using microcontrollers, and typically they spend a lot of time asleep, but wake at regular intervals to do something interesting before going back to sleep again. A fast, accurate, logging meter should be able to record current over a period of time, and even if it can't integrate total charge internally, it's simple enough to add up all the measurements in a spreadsheet.

My 34465A is ordered. Should be here tomorrow  :-DMM
Title: Re: Keysight's 34465A/34470A volt references
Post by: 6thimage on March 04, 2015, 03:10:30 pm
Thinking a little bit further about the 10V DCV drift specifications (most stable range) I come to the conclusion, that the 34465A will probably have an LM399H reference inside, (20ppm/year drift), and the 34470A will probably have the LTZ1000A reference of the 3458A (8ppm/year drift).

As the operational ambient temperature is also specified for 55°C, they again have to run the references on about 90°C oven temperature.

Frank

I'm guessing you're right about the 34465A using the LM399. Looking through the parts on keysight, both the 65A and 70A now have fan shields (http://www.keysight.com/my/faces/partDetail.jspx?partNumber=5041-5261 (http://www.keysight.com/my/faces/partDetail.jspx?partNumber=5041-5261)) presumably to limit airflow across the reference. It would be interesting to see how much of a difference the shield makes and whether there would be any benefit adding the shield to the 61A.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 04, 2015, 03:32:59 pm
I have had an update from Keysight about the 34461A's firmware:

Quote from: Keysight
We will be releasing revision 2.08 rather than 2.06 due to defects that were found and resolved during testing. I know this seems unending and I apologize. I am given release dates which I then pad in case of unforeseen issues. 2.08 is now scheduled for release March 16th.

I have attached a set of slides which summarize the changes/fixes for the 34461A that are contained in 2.08.

This is the same date (March 16th) as rosbuitre said, but they have increased the version number. I don't think there is anything new in the slides, but it does mention that the ethernet has HiSLIP and IPv6 support, which I hadn't realised before.

Link to the slides: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on March 04, 2015, 03:44:20 pm
I have had an update from Keysight about the 34461A's firmware:

Quote from: Keysight
We will be releasing revision 2.08 rather than 2.06 due to defects that were found and resolved during testing. I know this seems unending and I apologize. I am given release dates which I then pad in case of unforeseen issues. 2.08 is now scheduled for release March 16th.

I have attached a set of slides which summarize the changes/fixes for the 34461A that are contained in 2.08.

This is the same date (March 16th) as rosbuitre said, but they have increased the version number. I don't think there is anything new in the slides, but it does mention that the ethernet has HiSLIP and IPv6 support, which I hadn't realised before.

Link to the slides: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0).

  :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 04, 2015, 04:00:10 pm
I have had an update from Keysight about the 34461A's firmware:

Quote from: Keysight
We will be releasing revision 2.08 rather than 2.06 due to defects that were found and resolved during testing. I know this seems unending and I apologize. I am given release dates which I then pad in case of unforeseen issues. 2.08 is now scheduled for release March 16th.

I have attached a set of slides which summarize the changes/fixes for the 34461A that are contained in 2.08.

This is the same date (March 16th) as rosbuitre said, but they have increased the version number. I don't think there is anything new in the slides, but it does mention that the ethernet has HiSLIP and IPv6 support, which I hadn't realised before.

Link to the slides: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0).

 :clap:

There's no need to be sarcastic - the original firmware update for the 34461A was due out, at the very latest, of December 2014 (I reported the histogram bug to them in January 2014). I was also told at the end of January that 2.06 was going to be released on March 1st. Then you said that bumping it up to 2.07 added a fortnight. So the fact that keysight have increased the version number again and not pushed the release back further is a small miracle.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on March 04, 2015, 04:08:14 pm
I have had an update from Keysight about the 34461A's firmware:

Quote from: Keysight
We will be releasing revision 2.08 rather than 2.06 due to defects that were found and resolved during testing. I know this seems unending and I apologize. I am given release dates which I then pad in case of unforeseen issues. 2.08 is now scheduled for release March 16th.

I have attached a set of slides which summarize the changes/fixes for the 34461A that are contained in 2.08.

This is the same date (March 16th) as rosbuitre said, but they have increased the version number. I don't think there is anything new in the slides, but it does mention that the ethernet has HiSLIP and IPv6 support, which I hadn't realised before.

Link to the slides: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0).

 :clap:

There's no need to be sarcastic - the original firmware update for the 34461A was due out, at the very latest, of December 2014 (I reported the histogram bug to them in January 2014). I was also told at the end of January that 2.06 was going to be released on March 1st. Then you said that bumping it up to 2.07 added a fortnight. So the fact that keysight have increased the version number again and not pushed the release back further is a small miracle.

Hi
Not trying to be sarcastic, Am I getting the 34461A Friday and makes me happy improvements and corrections, only that

Regards
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 04, 2015, 05:58:11 pm
I have had an update from Keysight about the 34461A's firmware:

Quote from: Keysight
We will be releasing revision 2.08 rather than 2.06 due to defects that were found and resolved during testing. I know this seems unending and I apologize. I am given release dates which I then pad in case of unforeseen issues. 2.08 is now scheduled for release March 16th.

I have attached a set of slides which summarize the changes/fixes for the 34461A that are contained in 2.08.

This is the same date (March 16th) as rosbuitre said, but they have increased the version number. I don't think there is anything new in the slides, but it does mention that the ethernet has HiSLIP and IPv6 support, which I hadn't realised before.

Link to the slides: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0).

 :clap:

There's no need to be sarcastic - the original firmware update for the 34461A was due out, at the very latest, of December 2014 (I reported the histogram bug to them in January 2014). I was also told at the end of January that 2.06 was going to be released on March 1st. Then you said that bumping it up to 2.07 added a fortnight. So the fact that keysight have increased the version number again and not pushed the release back further is a small miracle.

Hi
Not trying to be sarcastic, Am I getting the 34461A Friday and makes me happy improvements and corrections, only that

Regards

My bad - sorry. Looking at your post now, I can see it the way you meant it - it just looked like slow clapping when I first saw it.

I don't think you will be disappointed with the 34461A. Just be warned that the update to the new firmware - if it is anything like the pre-beta version - will take a good few minutes to install over the 1.10 firmware. Mine sat on a white screen for what felt like an eternity and I was worried that it might have bricked it, then it burst back into life.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on March 04, 2015, 07:30:50 pm
Hi 6thimage
No problem, everything ok  :-+, I have a few days to test it before the new firmware

Regards
Osvaldo
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: jc101 on March 04, 2015, 09:59:36 pm
Slightly off topic, but I see that RS in the UK are offering the 34461A at a 10% discount at the moment (£638.10), looks like there is 1 in stock....
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 05, 2015, 07:05:20 pm
You know how they say a watched kettle never boils? They should say that a hotly anticipated UPS truck never shows up... until about an hour ago.  :phew:

First impression of the 34465A is that it's more compact than my Keithley 2000, and the display is bright, clear, and has a wide viewing angle. Nice.

Auto-ranging, on the other hand, is so much slower it's not even funny. One of the things I really like about the K2000 is that I can apply a signal, and by the time I've looked up at the meter, it's already found the correct range and showed a measurement. The 34465A is much more like a handheld meter, really quite slow, and that's disappointing. Maybe there's a setting that'll speed it up?

There's also an annoying relay that clicks away if the meter is left in high-Z voltage mode. As the inputs charge and discharge, the meter switches range and back to accommodate the instantaneous voltage. Maybe I'll just have to leave it in 10M mode instead. It's a shame, but the K2000 doesn't have this quirk either.

On the plus side, within an hour I've had it hooked up to my LAN and controlled it via the web interface, and now - I think! - it's logging data to a USB stick. It's fun, in a nerdy sort of way, watching a battery charge 0.1mV at a time.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LabSpokane on March 05, 2015, 07:31:53 pm
Any one know if the software update for the '61A will include the ability to log direct to a USB stick?  That is one feature that is surprisingly missing.

I'm actually glad to see that Keithly has some competitive advantages still. That kind of pressure is good for all of us. :)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 05, 2015, 09:16:17 pm
First impression of the 34465A is that it's more compact than my Keithley 2000, and the display is bright, clear, and has a wide viewing angle. Nice.

That sounds exactly like the 34461A.

Auto-ranging, on the other hand, is so much slower it's not even funny. One of the things I really like about the K2000 is that I can apply a signal, and by the time I've looked up at the meter, it's already found the correct range and showed a measurement. The 34465A is much more like a handheld meter, really quite slow, and that's disappointing. Maybe there's a setting that'll speed it up?

Really? I find that the 61A has a very similar auto-ranging speed to the 2000, I can't see why it would take longer on the 65A.

Edit: Autoranging will take longer if you are on the larger apertures (as the measurements take longer). For normal use (probing different signals) there is no need to use the higher apertures (e.g. 100 PLC).

There's also an annoying relay that clicks away if the meter is left in high-Z voltage mode. As the inputs charge and discharge, the meter switches range and back to accommodate the instantaneous voltage. Maybe I'll just have to leave it in 10M mode instead. It's a shame, but the K2000 doesn't have this quirk either.

You shouldn't leave it in the high-z mode - from the help menu (press and hold the high-z soft button), the 10 MOhm is what they expect you to use all the time, with the high-z being there if you need it for a particular purpose (which is rare). But having said that, the charge accumulation (and the relay dumping it when it gets to -12V) will not happen when you are making a reading, it only happens when the inputs are floating. Also, for what its worth, turning off auto-zero decreases the charging time.

Edit: It might be worth resetting your settings to the default (press shift, then the run-stop button).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 05, 2015, 09:33:30 pm
Any one know if the software update for the '61A will include the ability to log direct to a USB stick?  That is one feature that is surprisingly missing.

Unfortunately the 34461A's new firmware will not allow it to log to USB memory or the internal memory - these are the extra features that have been added to the 65/70A. Whether Keysight will release an option in the future that brings the digitising functionality, all be it in a limited way compared to the newer models, is another thing. The firmware is shared between all 4 devices (60/61/65/70A), so it should be possible but whether they will ever do it is another thing.

If we get enough people emailing Keysight's contact centre asking for data logging functionality in the 61A, they might add it at some point as an option.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on March 05, 2015, 09:48:10 pm
Auto-ranging, on the other hand, is so much slower it's not even funny. One of the things I really like about the K2000 is that I can apply a signal, and by the time I've looked up at the meter, it's already found the correct range and showed a measurement. The 34465A is much more like a handheld meter, really quite slow, and that's disappointing. Maybe there's a setting that'll speed it up?

Really? I find that the 61A has a very similar auto-ranging speed to the 2000, I can't see why it would take longer on the 65A.

I find this weird to. Which measurement are you autoranging? Even with relay activation, I found the 34461A immensely faster at autoranging than any HH DMM I have. And the 34465A is supposed to be even faster then the 34461A. Per the datasheet, the autoranging time in DCV is <30ms for the 34461A and the autoranging time for all measurements is < 5ms (!) for the 34465A.

Note that the measurement itself may be slow. The reset value for all 3446x series is NPLC10 and autozero ON, so by default you get a measurement time of 0.33/0.4 sec, and that's noticeable (it certainly dwarfs the autoranging time). You can put the 34465A in NPLC 1 or .2 or .02, still get near-full accuracy and blindingly fast readings.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 05, 2015, 09:59:22 pm
Auto-ranging, on the other hand, is so much slower it's not even funny. One of the things I really like about the K2000 is that I can apply a signal, and by the time I've looked up at the meter, it's already found the correct range and showed a measurement. The 34465A is much more like a handheld meter, really quite slow, and that's disappointing. Maybe there's a setting that'll speed it up?

Really? I find that the 61A has a very similar auto-ranging speed to the 2000, I can't see why it would take longer on the 65A.

I find this weird to. Which measurement are you autoranging? Even with relay activation, I found the 34461A immensely faster at autoranging than any HH DMM I have. And the 34465A is supposed to be even faster then the 34461A. Per the datasheet, the autoranging time in DCV is <30ms for the 34461A and the autoranging time for all measurements is < 5ms (!) for the 34465A.

Note that the measurement itself may be slow. The reset value for all 3446x series is NPLC10 and autozero ON, so by default you get a measurement time of 0.33/0.4 sec, and that's noticeable (it certainly dwarfs the autoranging time). You can put the 34465A in NPLC 1 or .2 or .02, still get near-full accuracy and blindingly fast readings.

I think you have hit the nail on head there. If you have it in 100 PLC it will take considerably longer to autorange. By the sounds of it AndyC has been playing a lot with the settings, so it might be best to do a reset to the defaults (press shift then the run-stop button).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 05, 2015, 10:03:45 pm
Guys... long day at work followed by the arrival of a new toy. Of course I've been playing!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 05, 2015, 11:02:03 pm
Guys... long day at work followed by the arrival of a new toy. Of course I've been playing!

We don't blame you one bit, just remember you don't have to tweak all the settings in the same night :P

If you do want to just play with it, remember you can always reset it to the defaults when your done, or even set the multimeter to start up in its default state.

On a bit of side note here, you can save the multimeter's state and tell it to use it at start up, which I find really useful as you can change the trend chart so that it automatically fits the data.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 06, 2015, 10:13:16 am
Had some more time to play now, and it's all good... mostly :)

Auto-ranging on the 2W resistance range does take a few steps to go from open circuit to correctly reading shorted probes, especially if they don't make really good contact straight away, and the meter tries some intermediate ranges before settling on the 100 Ohm range. It's OK if the aperture is set to 1 PLC, but on 10 PLC (the next available step up), it takes a while.

I spent a while yesterday looking for the red grabber, which I was sure should have been included in the test lead kit. I was going to give Keysight a call today to say it was missing, but having looked at the included accessories on their web site, it turns out you only get a black one (WTF?!)

So hooking the meter up to, say, log current for a period of time unattended is impossible unless you have a substantial enough clip already. And guess who wanted to leave it logging the charging process of a 12V lead-acid battery overnight  |O

(Seriously Keysight, that's just being cheap, even for you!)

On the plus side, setting it up to log to USB was dead easy and worked first time. I'm at a bit of a loss as to why anyone would pay for the MEM upgrade, when the 50,000 point limit of the standard meter doesn't apply if you're logging to a file on a USB stick. I checked this morning; 70,000 points taken at 3msec intervals, no problem at all.

Has anyone else noticed the noise from the fan? It's quiet, but quite high pitched and... whiney. Maybe it's inevitable, what with the fan being so small, but it's irritating nonetheless. Fortunately the radio drowns it out easily.

The probe tips needed a good clean in order to give consistent resistance readings; a good wipe with a paper towel soaked in Flux-off rosin flux remover worked wonders. They still feel a bit low rent compared to the TL175 set that came with my Fluke 289, though, and really hoped for better with a £900 multimeter. Some Kelvin clips for the 4W resistance range would have been nice too; you don't get anything at all to perform 4W measurements.

Amazingly, you do get a USB cable, but no Ethernet cable, and no printed manual. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Overall impression? From a usability point, a bloody good meter, as expected. I've no way to check its accuracy, though I've no reason to doubt it's anything other than superb. It's a shame that the accessories aren't more plentiful, but that's much easier to fix than any deficiency in the meter itself.

Also nice to see is that my Agilent 6632B set to 5V outputs +5.00008V, and in CC mode @ 1A, I get 0.99968A. Good enough for a general purpose bench supply  :-DD
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 06, 2015, 05:41:29 pm
I spent a while yesterday looking for the red grabber, which I was sure should have been included in the test lead kit. I was going to give Keysight a call today to say it was missing, but having looked at the included accessories on their web site, it turns out you only get a black one (WTF?!)

Yeah they include a black grabber, and a red and green mini-grabber. I always assumed that the black grabber was meant for a ground connection. The mini-grabbers will hold onto quite a lot, so it might be worth trying them. I've never found the black grabber all that useful, as it only has a 90 degree bend in it. It would be more useful if they provided some grabbing hooks.

On the plus side, setting it up to log to USB was dead easy and worked first time. I'm at a bit of a loss as to why anyone would pay for the MEM upgrade, when the 50,000 point limit of the standard meter doesn't apply if you're logging to a file on a USB stick. I checked this morning; 70,000 points taken at 3msec intervals, no problem at all.

From what I've read, logging to USB is limited to 100 hours (which I'm told is a maximum of 360 million readings). I have been reliably informed that once you go above the 50,000 point limit, the trend chart reverts to the recent/all mode - essentially making it so you can't use the cursors or zooming controls. Also, the digitising mode only works with the internal memory, due to its speed, so people who use that might want the extra memory.

Has anyone else noticed the noise from the fan? It's quiet, but quite high pitched and... whiney. Maybe it's inevitable, what with the fan being so small, but it's irritating nonetheless. Fortunately the radio drowns it out easily.

The fan in the 61A isn't too bad, it's a little noisy, but I wouldn't say high pitched. You could always swap it out with another small fan if you really wanted to.

Is there any chance of you taking the cover off and snapping a few pictures? I'm sure there are a lot of people (like me) who want a glimpse of the reference and the changes they've made.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LabSpokane on March 06, 2015, 07:58:18 pm
Save yourself a lot of frustration and shitcan those supplied grabbers now. They are just flimsy, malformed crap. 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 06, 2015, 09:11:38 pm
I'm inclined to agree; I've seen worse, but they certainly don't feel like the quality items I'd expected.

The black one was a good fit for the 12V battery I charged last night. The mini-grabbers didn't look up to passing any current, so I used the Keysight to log voltage instead, and recorded current with my Fluke 289 instead. The Fluke's leads and accessories are much nicer.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on March 06, 2015, 09:48:34 pm
Sold my Keysight lead set on EBay. Agree that the various Fluke sets are much nicer. The one thing the Keysight have for them is that they are seriously thick (16ga!), which make for a 15A rating and lower resistance than anything Fluke I have.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: radioFlash on March 10, 2015, 12:17:39 am
Here are some photos of my 34465A. It's using an LM399 voltage reference as expected.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: radioFlash on March 10, 2015, 12:18:09 am
And some more photos: Full size of the top side of the PCB and detail of of the top of the PCB towards the rear.

The PCB is already on Rev4. It looks a little messy around the input selector switch--doesn't look like they bothered to clean the flux.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: radioFlash on March 10, 2015, 12:20:58 am
And a photo of the voltage reference.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 10, 2015, 02:12:20 am
Thanks radioFlash they are very useful - I'm guessing you've removed the shield which sits above the voltage reference, is there also a fan shield of some sorts?

I'm a little surprised to see the LM399, as I was under the impression that the 34465A and 34470A had the same reference.

Your board's revision is 4 the same as what is used in the 34461A, although it has a different model number. I originally thought the only difference would be the population of components, but yours has some extra footprints and some changed parts.

I've combined one of your images with one from Dave's teardown.

But the changes I can see are:

Is there any chance you could take a picture of the back of the front panel?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 10, 2015, 05:58:27 am
radio Flash:

Thanks for these great photos!

Please make a side shot of R324, showing its imprints on both sides.
it's assumed to be a Vishay metal foil resistor, which would tell something about (better) Ohm stability and maybe the "Autocal" feature.

(Ohm stability 34461A: 80ppm/yr. // 34465 + 34470: 20ppm/yr.)

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 10, 2015, 08:37:18 am
On all my newer 34401A I see yellow transparent tape on the larger electrolytic capacitors (heat protection during production may be?).
Interesting, that we do not see this tape in either the 34460A or the 34465A boars.
Thanks for the great pictures.
 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: radioFlash on March 10, 2015, 11:12:27 am
Here's a photo with the shield in place. This is the only shield in the meter-there's not a separate one for the fan/regulator.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KedasProbe on March 10, 2015, 02:44:22 pm
On the plus side, setting it up to log to USB was dead easy and worked first time. I'm at a bit of a loss as to why anyone would pay for the MEM upgrade, when the 50,000 point limit of the standard meter doesn't apply if you're logging to a file on a USB stick. I checked this morning; 70,000 points taken at 3msec intervals, no problem at all.
Can you share a log file?
How many significant digits are there? 
(like this +3.31785468E+00,+3.61554515E+00)

Data log mode
The maximum reading rate is 1000 readings/s  (max. 100 hours)

"Digitizing" from what I read they mean fast reading like 5000 readings/s
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 10, 2015, 03:10:48 pm
Here's a 10 sample log. Probes are connected to a 9V battery. Meter is set to the 10V range, acquisition time is set to 200us, and sample interval is set to 2ms, both of which are as short as I can get. If anyone knows how to sample at 1ms intervals, I'd be interested to know what I've missed.

Code: [Select]
Start date:,03/10/2015,Start time:,15:09:42.910
Sample interval:,0.002000
Reading #,Reading
1,+8.80413134E+00
2,+8.80414814E+00
3,+8.80423098E+00
4,+8.80415278E+00
5,+8.80414582E+00
6,+8.80419101E+00
7,+8.80415741E+00
8,+8.80417653E+00
9,+8.80417885E+00
10,+8.80416958E+00

Edit: here's another log with the meter set to 1 PLC acquisition time and 0.5 sec sample interval:

Code: [Select]
Start date:,03/10/2015,Start time:,15:18:38.130
Sample interval:,0.500000
Reading #,Reading
1,+8.80401932E+00
2,+8.80401939E+00
3,+8.80402039E+00
4,+8.80401911E+00
5,+8.80401959E+00
6,+8.80401877E+00
7,+8.80401866E+00
8,+8.80401888E+00
9,+8.80402165E+00
10,+8.80401964E+00
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 10, 2015, 03:12:11 pm
Here's a photo of with the shield in place. This is the only shield in the meter-there's not a separate one for the fan/regulator.

That's not what I was expecting. The metal shield is part number 5041-5231 and is used on all four meters (34460/61/65/70A), but the Keysight part website mentions a fan shield (5041-5261) that is used on the 65/70A. I thought that this fan shield might be made from plastic to direct the airflow away from the voltage reference, but if it isn't fitted it makes me wonder why they list it as a part.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 10, 2015, 03:23:53 pm
Here's a 10 sample log. Probes are connected to a 9V battery. Meter is set to the 10V range, acquisition time is set to 200us, and sample interval is set to 2ms, both of which are as short as I can get. If anyone knows how to sample at 1ms intervals, I'd be interested to know what I've missed.

Code: [Select]
Start date:,03/10/2015,Start time:,15:09:42.910
Sample interval:,0.002000
Reading #,Reading
1,+8.80413134E+00
2,+8.80414814E+00
3,+8.80423098E+00
4,+8.80415278E+00
5,+8.80414582E+00
6,+8.80419101E+00
7,+8.80415741E+00
8,+8.80417653E+00
9,+8.80417885E+00
10,+8.80416958E+00

8 decimal places - this is the same as the CSV output from the 34460/61A. I'm not sure why you can't get 1 ms sample intervals - I can't find a reference to it in the manual.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 10, 2015, 04:22:52 pm
Here's a 10 sample log. Probes are connected to a 9V battery. Meter is set to the 10V range, acquisition time is set to 200us, and sample interval is set to 2ms, both of which are as short as I can get. If anyone knows how to sample at 1ms intervals, I'd be interested to know what I've missed.

I have just been informed that you need to change your settings a little to get to 1 ms intervals. If you having auto-ranging enabled, the minimum sample interval is increased so the meter can autorange and perform a measurement without over-running into the next sample period. Additionally, the auto-zeroing increases the time required for the measurement as well.

So to get a 1 ms sample interval either change to a fixed range, disable auto-zeroing or change to a smaller aperture.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 10, 2015, 04:25:12 pm
Auto zero doesn't seem to make any difference, but manual range selection does. Set the meter to 10V manually and I get 1ms intervals.

Code: [Select]
Start date:,03/10/2015,Start time:,16:29:47.790
Sample interval:,0.001000
Reading #,Reading
1,+8.80342110E+00
2,+8.80344253E+00
3,+8.80340430E+00
4,+8.80342110E+00
5,+8.80344485E+00
6,+8.80348772E+00
7,+8.80350684E+00
8,+8.80343326E+00
9,+8.80334289E+00
10,+8.80338808E+00
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sparky on March 10, 2015, 05:56:05 pm
Did anyone get the Digitize (DIG) option? I would love to hear what maximum sustained sample rate is possible when simultaneously transferring data to a PC with USB and LAN connections.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: economist on March 10, 2015, 08:43:43 pm
Did anyone get the Digitize (DIG) option? I would love to hear what maximum sustained sample rate is possible when simultaneously transferring data to a PC with USB and LAN connections.

I'm interested in the targeted use case for the digitizing functions of these DMMs (both the two Keysights and the Keithley 7510). I know the usual response is "if you can't think of a need for it you don't need it". But being a hobbyist I've stumbled onto needs I had no idea I would have at the time of purchase. A good example is buying a scope and then later coming up with a project where I really needed serial decoding -- a concept that was entirely foreign to me a year prior when making the scope purchase decision. So, what is the best use of these digitizing options? Don't get me wrong -- I can certainly imagine having fun with that functionality and using it. I just wonder what a real professional would do with it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 10, 2015, 09:03:11 pm
A few years ago, I measured the output of a prototype DC power supply with a cheap Tenma DMM (a tool which, I should add, I used on a daily basis for many years and which was generally both accurate and trustworthy).

The reading was a few volts higher than it should have been, and I spent a while probing around the circuit to try and figure out why.

It turned out to be noise on the output, which was upsetting the DMM and causing it to misread. Give or take a capacitor or two, the PSU itself was fine.

The noise was visible with a scope, but that's less convenient, and not isolated. A 34465A with digitiser could, potentially, have shown not only the correct DC voltage, but also detail of the noise.

If I had any other ideas, I'd have the DIG option for my 34465A.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Lizerd on March 10, 2015, 09:22:08 pm
I use the 34411a at work all the time in the 50KHz sample rate mode, I built a C#/WPF application that handles the trigger and graph function with data analyses. Really awesome.
Both for fast signals and slow.
Thats why I will buy the 34465A soon. I was delighted when I saw that the 65A was coming.
but I still will use the K2000 because it's just awesome (mostly UI update speed wise).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 10, 2015, 10:53:43 pm
A few years ago, I measured the output of a prototype DC power supply with a cheap Tenma DMM (a tool which, I should add, I used on a daily basis for many years and which was generally both accurate and trustworthy).

The reading was a few volts higher than it should have been, and I spent a while probing around the circuit to try and figure out why.

It turned out to be noise on the output, which was upsetting the DMM and causing it to misread. Give or take a capacitor or two, the PSU itself was fine.

The noise was visible with a scope, but that's less convenient, and not isolated. A 34465A with digitiser could, potentially, have shown not only the correct DC voltage, but also detail of the noise.

If I had any other ideas, I'd have the DIG option for my 34465A.

The digitising mode would more than likely have shown the noise, but also the secondary peak measurements would have (and they are not an optional extra).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 10, 2015, 11:01:55 pm
Did anyone get the Digitize (DIG) option? I would love to hear what maximum sustained sample rate is possible when simultaneously transferring data to a PC with USB and LAN connections.

The datasheet says that the 34465/70A can do up to 40k readings/s in ASCII to the bus (LAN or USB connected computer). I have also been reliably informed that both LAN and USB have been tested at the maximum 50k readings/s but the data has to be in binary format (configured by the FORMat:DATA SCPI command - page 264 of the manual).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sparky on March 11, 2015, 12:28:22 am
Did anyone get the Digitize (DIG) option? I would love to hear what maximum sustained sample rate is possible when simultaneously transferring data to a PC with USB and LAN connections.

The datasheet says that the 34465/70A can do up to 40k readings/s in ASCII to the bus (LAN or USB connected computer). I have also been reliably informed that both LAN and USB have been tested at the maximum 50k readings/s but the data has to be in binary format (configured by the FORMat:DATA SCPI command - page 264 of the manual).

It's unfortunate, and I don't understand why, the instrument configuration for max readings/sec is not clearly stated.  One should not need reliable informants on-the-inside for the configuration that yields the publicly disclosed specs...

I hope it's just an oversight and Keysight publish it soon enough...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 11, 2015, 12:57:40 am
Did anyone get the Digitize (DIG) option? I would love to hear what maximum sustained sample rate is possible when simultaneously transferring data to a PC with USB and LAN connections.

The datasheet says that the 34465/70A can do up to 40k readings/s in ASCII to the bus (LAN or USB connected computer). I have also been reliably informed that both LAN and USB have been tested at the maximum 50k readings/s but the data has to be in binary format (configured by the FORMat:DATA SCPI command - page 264 of the manual).

It's unfortunate, and I don't understand why, the instrument configuration for max readings/sec is not clearly stated.  One should not need reliable informants on-the-inside for the configuration that yields the publicly disclosed specs...

I hope it's just an oversight and Keysight publish it soon enough...

I'm also hoping that it is an oversight - the datasheet should have both the ASCII and binary data rates (the binary mode is new for the 34465/70A, I assume purely so they can get the required data rate). I'm guessing the people putting the datasheet together had a check list of things to include, with one being the bus reading rate - I don't think it occurred to them that there might be two different rates.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: radioFlash on March 11, 2015, 01:45:07 am
Some additional detail photos. The Resistor R324 is a Vishay precision resistor marked as VH102ZT 10K000 1%. Also, I did notice a small fan shield after looking at it again. It's just a small piece of bent sheet metal.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: G0HZU on March 11, 2015, 02:14:14 am
Quote
Don't get me wrong -- I can certainly imagine having fun with that functionality and using it. I just wonder what a real professional would do with it.
Obviously, there will be valid uses (for some users) for these features but at my place of work the logging bench DMM is a rare sight in the engineering labs. I doubt many people have used one for logging because they are usually way too slow. Even in this thread people are hitting very slow sample limits.

The usual solution is to use multiple ADC channels to log lots of stuff in parallel and this is faster, cheaper, takes up less space and can usually be designed 'in' to a product or its test jig. DMMs offer high resolution when logging but this isn't really needed in our case. If we tried to do all the above with DMMs we would need loads of them on every bench and they would still be too slow.

We do sometimes use logging DMMs in the ATE section because the ATE guys tend to use tools like Labview so they prefer to just plumb stuff together quickly.

However, for home use it's pretty easy (as in highly convenient) to log stuff with a DMM if you just want to look at noise and ripple on a dodgy power supply over time. But some people might just use a PC soundcard instead with some spectrum analysis SW and look at the spectrum up to maybe 90kHz using freebie analyser software. Some SW can capture the data and produce a wav file for repeated playback. It can be a very powerful tool even if not calibrated.



Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on March 11, 2015, 05:59:16 am
I am confused about the trend plotting in Data Log or Digitize modes. Is it available while logging or only when logging/digitizing is done? Does the graph get reset (and not redrawn) if you change the X axis? Can you also rebin the histogram without clearing it?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 11, 2015, 06:52:38 am
Some additional detail photos. The Resistor R324 is a Vishay precision resistor marked as VH102ZT 10K000 1%. Also, I did notice a small fan shield after looking at it again. It's just a small piece of bent sheet metal.

Thanks for these great photos!

Wow, that VH102T resistor, hermetically sealed, is really a very stable one!

It has a guaranteed T.C. of +/- 0.8ppm/K, 0.2ppm/K typical, and a long term stability (no load) of 2ppm in 6 years, although it's not oil filled.
The resistance specification of the '365 / '370 are  too wide (8ppm/yr. and 3ppm/K), especially as they really implemented some downsized form of the 3458A AUTOCAL function.
The 40k S012C resistor is not so stable, +/- 4.5ppm/K for this old C foil technology, but maybe used for the LM399H reference.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KedasProbe on March 11, 2015, 09:41:20 am
The person that came up with the name "Digitize Mode" at Keysight should be fired.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 11, 2015, 02:06:25 pm
Some additional detail photos. The Resistor R324 is a Vishay precision resistor marked as VH102ZT 10K000 1%. Also, I did notice a small fan shield after looking at it again. It's just a small piece of bent sheet metal.

Thanks for those photos. That fan shield doesn't look like it would do that much - I was expecting something a lot more substantial. The back of the front panel has a few extra passives on it, but I can't see what I was looking for on it. To support thermocouples, a temperature sensor is needed. I have heard that there is only one on, or near, the front connectors - I'm guessing it is on the far side of the front panel board, as I couldn't spot any on the measurement board.

I'd also be interested if you could get the part numbers for the flash and ram (on either side of the spear processor), as I wanted to know if they have increased from 128 MB (1 Gb).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 11, 2015, 02:14:54 pm
I am confused about the trend plotting in Data Log or Digitize modes. Is it available while logging or only when logging/digitizing is done? Does the graph get reset (and not redrawn) if you change the X axis? Can you also rebin the histogram without clearing it?

Looking in the manual (pages 133-134), when data logging to a file, the trend plot will act in the same way it does when it is in the continuous mode. When data logging to memory, however, you can use the zoom, pan and cursors. As you can only digitise to memory, I assume you can always use the zoom, pan and cursors (provided you are below the memory limit). I am not sure how the re-binning works for the histogram - the manual doesn't mention it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: SteveyG on March 11, 2015, 02:21:38 pm
Quote
Don't get me wrong -- I can certainly imagine having fun with that functionality and using it. I just wonder what a real professional would do with it.
Obviously, there will be valid uses (for some users) for these features but at my place of work the logging bench DMM is a rare sight in the engineering labs. I doubt many people have used one for logging because they are usually way too slow. Even in this thread people are hitting very slow sample limits.

We regularly use them remotely for logging etc. I guess it depends what you're designing.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on March 11, 2015, 02:33:21 pm
LM399 in socket? :) Beware wild voltnuts.
As a serious note, maybe that's how they swap reference to LTZ1000 for 34470A, if mainboard same? Just plug a LTZ-based ref board into socket.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 11, 2015, 03:48:15 pm
LM399 in socket? :) Beware wild voltnuts.
As a serious note, maybe that's how they swap reference to LTZ1000 for 34470A, if mainboard same? Just plug a LTZ-based ref board into socket.

The 34461A's LM399 is socketed as well. I doubt you could do a direct swap for an LTZ1000 though (even if it is on its own board), as I thought it required that the voltage output was separate to its input.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 11, 2015, 09:04:00 pm
I am confused about the trend plotting in Data Log or Digitize modes. Is it available while logging or only when logging/digitizing is done? Does the graph get reset (and not redrawn) if you change the X axis? Can you also rebin the histogram without clearing it?

I have been given some answers on how the trend chart and histogram work.

When data logging to memory, the trend chart and the histogram both use the stored data - so you can re-bin the histogram without data loss. When logging to a file, the measurements are also stored into memory, allowing the use of cursors, zoom and re-binning. However, when the number of readings surpasses the memory limit, both the trend chart and histogram revert to continuous mode.

In continuous mode, the trend chart data is compressed into 'buckets' which have a constant time width. Each of these buckets keeps a high and a low value. For displaying of the 'recent' trend chart, the last 400 of these buckets are shown and scroll to the left hand side of the screen. When the 'all' trend chart is displayed, all the buckets are compressed to fit onto the screen - with the highs and lows being kept for each pixel column.

For the histogram, in continuous mode, the samples are binned continuously, with the only limitation being that each bin count is stored as an integer. The auto-binning can compress bins to cover a broader range, but cannot arbitrarily re-bin.

When digitising, the histogram is not actively updated, with its processing being postponed until the digitising is complete - this is done so that the measurement rate can be guaranteed. Additionally, the data for the histogram is only processed if the display is set to it (in continuous & data logging, the histogram is updated with every reading).

The person that came up with the name "Digitize Mode" at Keysight should be fired.

Why do you think that?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on March 12, 2015, 06:37:11 am
LM399 in socket? :) Beware wild voltnuts.
As a serious note, maybe that's how they swap reference to LTZ1000 for 34470A, if mainboard same? Just plug a LTZ-based ref board into socket.

You'll have to wait for my teardown, rendering now... 35 minutes of waffle about the reference and A/B comparison with the 34461A board.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KedasProbe on March 12, 2015, 08:58:11 am
The person that came up with the name "Digitize Mode" at Keysight should be fired.

Why do you think that?
Because it doesn't say anything about what is different in that mode, it's digitizing in all modes, that's what a DMM is supposed to do. "Measuring Mode" would say equally as 'much'.
 "High Speed Mode" for example would already mean something.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 12, 2015, 09:07:20 am
You'll have to wait for my teardown, rendering now... 35 minutes of waffle about the reference and A/B comparison with the 34461A board.
We wanted to order a new one today, but will wait for your teardown.
Thanks so much for all your teardowns and explanations.
It really helps in a buying decision.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on March 12, 2015, 09:34:44 am
We wanted to order a new one today, but will wait for your teardown.

Photos are up in the usual place for those who can't wait...
Teardown wise the 34470A is as good as you could expect it to be  :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 12, 2015, 09:56:43 am
Thanks Dave!

LTZ1000A, 15k / 1k divider, 95°C. For 55°C Tamb., 8ppm/year stability only.
All SMD resistors, maybe also metal foil SMD?
And a lot of PCB slots!!
PCB fully thermally and air shielded, high temperature plastic, again.
 
They just copied the errors from 1988.. could have been done better..

Obviously, they just transferred the old 3458A reference PCB to modern design / components.
Even the alternative positions for R4 and R5 are available.. for pimping to 65°C / 1ppm/yr.


Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on March 12, 2015, 10:40:33 am
They just copied the errors from 1988.. could have been done better..
Obviously, they just transferred the old 3458A reference PCB to modern design / components.
Even the alternative positions for R4 and R5 are available.. for pimping to 65°C / 1ppm/yr.

What errors?
I'm not familiar with the 3458A reference, never opened one. But isn't it the ducks guts?
Do you doubt this can meet the claimed specs?
I was impressed with the plastic enclosure design and the separation of the driver transistor (for separate cooling?).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 12, 2015, 11:14:13 am
They just copied the errors from 1988.. could have been done better..
Obviously, they just transferred the old 3458A reference PCB to modern design / components.
Even the alternative positions for R4 and R5 are available.. for pimping to 65°C / 1ppm/yr.

What errors?
I'm not familiar with the 3458A reference, never opened one. But isn't it the ducks guts?
Do you doubt this can meet the claimed specs?
I was impressed with the plastic enclosure design and the separation of the driver transistor (for separate cooling?).

Hi Dave,
sure, this reference is something like the Holy Grale. We discussed that in the Ultra LTZ1000 blog intensively.

But anyhow, HP engineers originally designed this circuit to run on 95°C, also due to the required ambient temperature of 55°C.
That causes a higher drift than intended originally by LT: running on 65°C instead gives typically -1.. -2ppm/year, and other designs of 8 1/2 digit DMM, standards and calibrators use 45..55°C oven temperature for around 1..2 ppm/year guaranteed stability.


In this instrument, they could have used the LTZ1000, (non A), easily reducing the oven temperature by 10°C and increasing the stability by a factor of about 2, and maybe further down to 75°C by better thermal management, giving 3..4ppm/year for sure.

Obviously, the Keysight engineers did not want to create an improved circuit, which they would have to re-qualify elaborately.
That could also be true for the rest of the circuitry, where they may have copied the Multislope IV circuit and algorithm from the 34410/11.
Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 12, 2015, 12:16:43 pm
Photos are up in the usual place for those who can't wait...
Teardown wise the 34470A is as good as you could expect it to be  :-+
Thanks so much for the photos, Dave !

It seems the 34465A is the replacement for the older 34411A and
The 34470A is kind of the replacement for the 3458A.


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KedasProbe on March 12, 2015, 01:09:01 pm
Photos are up in the usual place for those who can't wait...
Teardown wise the 34470A is as good as you could expect it to be  :-+
Where is the usual place?  :-[


Edit: Thanks
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 12, 2015, 01:15:23 pm
https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 12, 2015, 11:13:35 pm
The person that came up with the name "Digitize Mode" at Keysight should be fired.

Why do you think that?
Because it doesn't say anything about what is different in that mode, it's digitizing in all modes, that's what a DMM is supposed to do. "Measuring Mode" would say equally as 'much'.
 "High Speed Mode" for example would already mean something.

I can see your point, but calling it 'high speed' has its problems as well - as the data logging and digitising modes overlap in terms of measurement speed. I think they went with digitise to invoke images of fast digitising systems, in contrast to the slower, and more precise, data logging systems. But either way, firing someone for a name choice seems a little excessive.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: radioFlash on March 13, 2015, 12:33:16 am
Interestingly, the 34470A's reference is attached by an 8 pin header (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/16171847343/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/16171847343/)). On the 34465, you can see there are 4 additional unpopulated holes by the LM399 reference:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=141295 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=141295)


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 13, 2015, 12:51:35 am
Interestingly, the 34470A's reference is attached by an 8 pin header (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/16171847343/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/16171847343/)). On the 34465, you can see there are 4 additional unpopulated holes by the LM399 reference:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=141295 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=141295)

The 34465A and 34470A share the same board - look at the part number at the top of this image https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/16765926266/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/16765926266/).

I don't think there are any disadvantages of having the reference on a daughter board with a pin header interconnect. Putting a reference in a socket (i.e. the LTZ1000), rather than soldering it, is seen as being bad, as the stress on the pins affects the reference's output, but as there is a daughter board, that's not a concern. I'm guessing they went with this method, so that it is easier to thermally isolate the reference from the rest of the measurement board.

Edit:
Additionally, the 34461A board has the 8 pin header footprint - https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/9090130444 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/9090130444). With the board in the 34461A having a 34460A part number, it's pretty safe to assume that 34460/61As in the future will have the same board as the 34465/70A.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: radioFlash on March 13, 2015, 01:53:51 am
Good catch. Here's a comparison of the 34465A to Dave's photo of the 34470A.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on March 13, 2015, 04:46:13 am
If we can get firmware dump from 34470A, then some voltnuts could be able to upgrade their 34460/61's to 34470A for cheap (~$400USD, cost of LTZ reference, foil resistor and missing parts) since rest of hardware is same  ;D

I made animated gif for your enjoyment with all three..

(http://doc.xdevs.com/doc/Agilent/photo/34470A/34460_65_70a_comp_small.gif) (http://doc.xdevs.com/doc/Agilent/photo/34470A/34460_65_70a_comp.gif)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on March 13, 2015, 04:50:33 am
If we can get firmware dump from 34470A, then some voltnuts could be able to upgrade their 34460/61's to 34470A for cheap (~$400USD, cost of LTZ reference, foil resistor and missing parts) since rest of hardware is same  ;D

Not sure if that's possible, but the 34465A to 34470A should be possible, just change the reference and firmware. Or if you were happy with the LM399 just change the firmware to get the extra digit.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on March 13, 2015, 04:52:53 am
For those that want the two images of the 34461A and 34470A I have shot and scaled to match, here you go:
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8721/16765926266_d30679e9d1_o_d.jpg
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7606/16584505777_201128fea6_o_d.jpg
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 13, 2015, 05:22:12 am
If we can get firmware dump from 34470A, then some voltnuts could be able to upgrade their 34460/61's to 34470A for cheap (~$400USD, cost of LTZ reference, foil resistor and missing parts) since rest of hardware is same  ;D

Not sure if that's possible, but the 34465A to 34470A should be possible, just change the reference and firmware. Or if you were happy with the LM399 just change the firmware to get the extra digit.

There is no point in dumping the firmware - it is the same for all 4 meters (34460/61/65/70A). I'm guessing the model number is tied to the serial number, and is stored in an eeprom or maybe in the processor's internal flash memory.

I'm guessing it is theoretically possible to hack the 34465A into the 34470A as they share the same board. But this board is different to the one used in the 34460/61A, in a few small ways. Additionally, the 34465/70A have a temperature sensor near the front connectors for cold junction compensation, which the 34460/61A don't have.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KedasProbe on March 13, 2015, 08:34:33 am
Hhmmm the hacking started already?
The first prize for 'upgrading' the firmware for 34465A to 34470A  is an extra digit on your display :), don't forget the DIG option ;)

If a serial stored in the device is the key for 70A or 65A then maybe the firmware has to be changed to swap the logic which serial is 70A.   (just an idea)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: babysitter on March 13, 2015, 10:30:06 am
The User and Service Manual claims that turning the screw that holds the metal shield in place changes calibration - did anybody confirm it yet?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: splin on March 13, 2015, 02:32:50 pm
About that ARM processor on the bottom of the board.

http://www.ti.com/product/lm3s1d21 (http://www.ti.com/product/lm3s1d21)

Quote
This product is being discontinued. Orders for life buy purchases are available

TI does not recommend using this part in a new design. This product continues to be in production to support existing customers. TI suggests designers consider TM4C12x as an alternative family or series of devices for use in new designs.

Ooops!

Splin
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 13, 2015, 02:42:48 pm
About that ARM processor on the bottom of the board.

http://www.ti.com/product/lm3s1d21 (http://www.ti.com/product/lm3s1d21)

Quote
This product is being discontinued. Orders for life buy purchases are available

TI does not recommend using this part in a new design. This product continues to be in production to support existing customers. TI suggests designers consider TM4C12x as an alternative family or series of devices for use in new designs.

Ooops!

Splin

Texas Instruments did that with the Stellaris range of microcontrollers a few years back - overnight, and out of nowhere, they discontinued their entire range.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: splin on March 13, 2015, 02:46:27 pm
They just copied the errors from 1988.. could have been done better..
Obviously, they just transferred the old 3458A reference PCB to modern design / components.
Even the alternative positions for R4 and R5 are available.. for pimping to 65°C / 1ppm/yr.

What errors?
I'm not familiar with the 3458A reference, never opened one. But isn't it the ducks guts?
Do you doubt this can meet the claimed specs?
I was impressed with the plastic enclosure design and the separation of the driver transistor (for separate cooling?).

Hi Dave,
sure, this reference is something like the Holy Grale. We discussed that in the Ultra LTZ1000 blog intensively.

But anyhow, HP engineers originally designed this circuit to run on 95°C, also due to the required ambient temperature of 55°C.
That causes a higher drift than intended originally by LT: running on 65°C instead gives typically -1.. -2ppm/year, and other designs of 8 1/2 digit DMM, standards and calibrators use 45..55°C oven temperature for around 1..2 ppm/year guaranteed stability.


In this instrument, they could have used the LTZ1000, (non A), easily reducing the oven temperature by 10°C and increasing the stability by a factor of about 2, and maybe further down to 75°C by better thermal management, giving 3..4ppm/year for sure.

Obviously, the Keysight engineers did not want to create an improved circuit, which they would have to re-qualify elaborately.
That could also be true for the rest of the circuitry, where they may have copied the Multislope IV circuit and algorithm from the 34410/11.
Frank

Its probably more about protecting sales of 3458As or its replacement - the 33470A already has 8 1/2 digits resolution so there must be a limited market for a significantly more expensive 'true 8 1/2 digit' meter with an inferior reference. Ok, there are other reasons for buying a 3458A but an almost as good 34470A (for DC measurements at least) would make that decision harder to justify for many.

Splin
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kwass on March 13, 2015, 03:03:28 pm
But anyhow, HP engineers originally designed this circuit to run on 95°C, also due to the required ambient temperature of 55°C.
That causes a higher drift than intended originally by LT: running on 65°C instead gives typically -1.. -2ppm/year, and other designs of 8 1/2 digit DMM, standards and calibrators use 45..55°C oven temperature for around 1..2 ppm/year guaranteed stability.

If this is the case, why is the fan needed for normal lab environments.  It seems to me the this 61a/65a/70a should work just fine without the fan.  Has anyone here just pulled the plug on the fan in their unit and run it that way?



Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 13, 2015, 03:04:17 pm
I was wrong about the model number being derived from the serial number, in the manual, under SCPI errors, there is this:
Quote
+821,"Controller and measurement board model numbers do not match"
+822,"Controller and measurement board serial numbers do not match"

So both the model and serial number are stored separately in two places. The controller here is referring to the front panel - so swapping displays will cause the multimeter to error.

Interestingly, there is also this error:
Quote
+820,"Model and serial numbers not restored"

So I think it is safe to assume that the model numbers are stored in at least three places across the two boards (likely twice on each board).

The main processor (the spear320) has a 32 kB boot-rom and an 8 kB sram. So I think it is unlikely the serial & model number are stored in there. The processor has a flash and ram chip above and below it. The serial/model might be stored in there but I'm guessing that it isn't - it makes more sense for that just to hold the windows ce image, as then a firmware update can't make the multimeter forget its identity.

The front panel has an NXP LPC932 - an 80C51 microcontroller with 8 kB flash, 768 bytes rom and 512 bytes eeprom. If I was designing this, I would have placed the serial and model in that eeprom (their are no other external memories on the front panel), as you could update the microcontroller's firmware without the eeprom data being lost.

With the measurement board, I think it is unlikely they would store the serial & model in the FPGA as it hinders firmware updates. There is the TI cortex-m3 on the bottom of the board, but for the same reasons as above, I think it is unlikely they would store them in there. So the question then is, where do they store serial/model and also where do they store the calibration constants? My guess is U904 in this image https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/16171847343/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/16171847343/) - it looks like the right size package for an I2C eeprom, and it has pins 2 & 3 tied together (suggesting they might be address pins). Unfortunately I can't find any details on it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 13, 2015, 03:10:51 pm
But anyhow, HP engineers originally designed this circuit to run on 95°C, also due to the required ambient temperature of 55°C.
That causes a higher drift than intended originally by LT: running on 65°C instead gives typically -1.. -2ppm/year, and other designs of 8 1/2 digit DMM, standards and calibrators use 45..55°C oven temperature for around 1..2 ppm/year guaranteed stability.

If this is the case, why is the fan needed for normal lab environments.  It seems to me the this 61a/65a/70a should work just fine without the fan.  Has anyone here just pulled the plug on the fan in their unit and run it that way?

I asked this question to someone in the know and they said that the fan moves very little air in normal lab conditions, but ramps up when the internal temperature rises (I'm guessing PWM). They also said that the drop in accuracy between the 34461A and the 34460A (the cheapest model without rear connectors and a fan) was largely due to the lack of a fan - with the 60A varying if the side holes are blocked by the handle.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on March 13, 2015, 04:35:55 pm
U904 looks like ATMEL 34 I2C EEPROM. And U101 on front board looks EEPROMish too. Maybe Dave can use his MiniProg for them  :=\
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 13, 2015, 06:00:25 pm
U904 looks like ATMEL 34 I2C EEPROM. And U101 on front board looks EEPROMish too. Maybe Dave can use his MiniProg for them  :=\

I'd guessed that it was an Atmel eeprom, but I didn't recognise the code on it. U101 is not an eeprom - it is an RTC (on the left of it is a 32.768 kHz crystal). I'm not sure why Keysight (back when it was Agilent) decided to have an external RTC, when the main processor includes one.

Here is a table of what is on the 34461A's front panel:
U100TI 2051b 2bm a4djSingle power distribution switch <0.5 A
U101ST M41T82RI2C RTC with battery switch over
U102Maxim MAX3232ERS232 driver
U103C6AF NZ04Possibly a Fairchild part
U200Unpopulated 8 pin
U201ST SPEAr320S-2Main processor, ARM926EJ-S core, <333 MHz, 32 kB embedded boot ROM, 8 kB embedded SRAM, crypto co-processor, touch screen interface
U202SMSC 8710ALAN8710A (microchip) 10/100 ethernet transceiver - has auto-MDIX support
U203Micron NQ277 2TDI7MT29F1G08ABADAH4 1 Gb (128 MB) NAND flash
U204Micron D9LHR 2NHI2MT47H64M16HR-3 1 Gb (128 MB) DDR2-667 333 MHz DRAM
U205TI LC07A 26K C6ECSN74LVC07A hex buffer/driver with open drain outputs
U300TI 54140TPS54140, 1.5A step down converter
U304TI TPS 650701Single chip power IC for battery applications - can charge Li-ion batteries & has a resistive touch screen interface controller
U400ODNUnknown sot23-5 package
U401NXP LPC932A1FDH80C51, 8k flash, 768B RAM, 512B EEPROM - used for the soft power button
U403TI L393LM393 dual voltage comparator

I have taken a few photos of my front panel (34461A) and combined them into this https://www.dropbox.com/s/3fjewu04suqs75r/front-panel.jpg?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/3fjewu04suqs75r/front-panel.jpg?dl=0), which some people might find useful.

For comparison, this is radioFlash's front panel
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=141299;image)

The board is different on the left hand side of the battery - few passives & unpopulated footprints, but the logo has also moved which makes me wonder what is new that we can't see in this image.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kwass on March 13, 2015, 07:17:32 pm

I asked this question to someone in the know and they said that the fan moves very little air in normal lab conditions, but ramps up when the internal temperature rises (I'm guessing PWM). They also said that the drop in accuracy between the 34461A and the 34460A (the cheapest model without rear connectors and a fan) was largely due to the lack of a fan - with the 60A varying if the side holes are blocked by the handle.

On the 65a/70a the ACAL function should solve that problem nicely.  (I think that ACAL may have been added to the 60a and 61a too in the latest firmware.)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 13, 2015, 07:43:05 pm
(I think that ACAL may have been added to the 60a and 61a too in the latest firmware.)
Based on what I read so far, ACAL is only available on the 34470A model
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 13, 2015, 07:53:57 pm

I asked this question to someone in the know and they said that the fan moves very little air in normal lab conditions, but ramps up when the internal temperature rises (I'm guessing PWM). They also said that the drop in accuracy between the 34461A and the 34460A (the cheapest model without rear connectors and a fan) was largely due to the lack of a fan - with the 60A varying if the side holes are blocked by the handle.

On the 65a/70a the ACAL function should solve that problem nicely.  (I think that ACAL may have been added to the 60a and 61a too in the latest firmware.)

I have a 34461A and a pre-beta version of the firmware - the 34460/61A will not have ACAL, its a 65/70A feature (I think it requires the hermetically sealed Vishay resistor).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 13, 2015, 09:21:01 pm
(I think that ACAL may have been added to the 60a and 61a too in the latest firmware.)
Based on what I read so far, ACAL is only available on the 34470A model

Have a look at the datasheet - 34465A supports ACAL.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Tom45 on March 14, 2015, 01:19:02 am
So when my 34465A arrived I saw this label on the box:

(http://s18.postimg.org/3mtl7ef95/34465_ASell_By.jpg)

So if it hadn't been sold before May 1st would they have pulled it from the shelf and tossed it into a dumpster? Donated it to homeless people?

Tom
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: andtfoot on March 14, 2015, 01:22:19 am
So if it hadn't been sold before May 1st would they have pulled it from the shelf and tossed it into a dumpster? Donated it to homeless people?
Or maybe recalibrate it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on March 14, 2015, 01:31:55 am
So if it hadn't been sold before May 1st would they have pulled it from the shelf and tossed it into a dumpster? Donated it to homeless people?

Tom

Congrats on the purchase.

I think it has to do with Warranty and Calibration.
When I registered my 34461A, they gave me a warranty expiration 42 (36+6) months from _manufacturing date_. They didn't use (or even ask for) the sale date. So to guarantee their standard 36 month warranty, they have to sell the unit within 6 months of manufacturing. I assume it also helps making sure that units still have a fair amount (I guess that's >= 6 months) left on the 1yr calibration.

I had another experience buying a Keysight HH DMM that we later found out had been sitting on a shelf for 4 years. When I tried to register it, Keysight marked it as out of warranty. Had to return it to the dealer and they got me a fresh one directly from Keysight. I assume dealers are required to sell fresh inventory or return it for refreshing (e.g. recalibration).

I don't know if this 42 month policy is official but that seems to be how it works in practice. It's certainly easier to deal with than trying to track the sale date.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Tom45 on March 14, 2015, 03:28:51 am
Thanks for the explanations. The issue of calibration and warranty intervals hadn't occurred to me but now with your explanations it makes perfect sense.

The sticker not only ensures that old stock doesn't doesn't get sold to the end user, but it also helps the distributor keep fresh stock by knowing to ship the oldest units first.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on March 14, 2015, 04:21:10 am
I've added photos of the front panel.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 14, 2015, 04:54:39 am
Thanks Dave - that's helped identify U403 (the so8 above the NXP microcontroller) as a dual voltage comparator and tells us that the flash memory hasn't changed in size (still 128 MB, but with a different part number). Also the rs232 converter (U102) has changed brand from Maxim to TI.

I think that's all we will be able to tell, without the front panel being removed.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KedasProbe on March 14, 2015, 11:35:13 am
......
But either way, firing someone for a name choice seems a little excessive.
OK, let's just reassign that person to marketing.
Oh wait.......nevermind.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LabSpokane on March 15, 2015, 06:53:52 pm
What is up with all the complaints about the fans?  Do you guys have bionic hearing or something? Or do you have the meters backed directly against a ultra-noise reflective wall so all the noise is bouncing back to you? 

I have solid metal behind both my meters, so I should have the worst noise problem possible and both my meters are literally less noisy than a whisper. I'm sitting here with an iPhone dB meter (granted, not super accurate).  My ambient noise level is approx 20dB - far quieter than any office I've been in - and having two meters running adds maybe 2-3 dB at the front of the meter.  The keyboard that I'm typing on is noisier than the fans. My oscope's single fan is noisier than both fans combined.  Yes, it's a bit higher frequency noise, but it's so far below any typical background noise, I can't understand all the complaints/comments/worries about it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: babysitter on March 15, 2015, 07:18:54 pm
@Labspokane: About every Datasheet and application note for precise voltage stuff recommends against fans and suggests to supress any air drafts in the proximity as good as possible. The reason is preventing thermal emf in sensible areas.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LabSpokane on March 15, 2015, 07:57:26 pm
Babysitter,

I understand drafts, but this is constant, forced convective flow.  And what's to say that HagilSight didn't test it both ways and found the fan better for most purposes?  It just seems like a lot of what we call "armchair quarterbacking."  If they didn't have a fan in there, everyone would be on here complaining that the device didn't come into thermal equilibrium with the test environment quickly enough.  And my very modest experience with the devices are that once one measures in the 100 uV range, the lab and devices need to be as temperature stable as the meter anyway, so I still am not seeing the huge downside to the fan. 

It just seems like this huge assumption that the HagilSight failed to due their due diligence with the design, so the only remaining argument I could understand was noise. 

Just my 0.02 ...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 15, 2015, 08:04:07 pm
What is up with all the complaints about the fans?  Do you guys have bionic hearing or something? Or do you have the meters backed directly against a ultra-noise reflective wall so all the noise is bouncing back to you?

No, it's just a pitch that I happen to find objectionable.

By comparison, my 6632B power supplies and MSO-X3000A scope are louder in absolute terms, but annoy me less.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: babysitter on March 16, 2015, 06:39:21 am
@LabSpokane: The only valid assumption is that the labs comply to the datasheet specification, as the user needs to infer the performance of his own setup out of this. Also, those data sheets and app notes haven't changed :)

(I consider KeySight very capable but not perfect, I have been one of the 34405A victims at work which was almost unusable for remote operation for a long time until f/w was fixed. But that was a unneccesary mess-up, in a different leage of DMMs.)

The 3458A also has a fan and a long history, so it is proven that you can make quite a nice thing out of this design and there are hints that they reused a lot in the 70A. But in both, there is space for tiny changes to bump up specs. This is not necessarily failed due dilligence.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Vgkid on March 16, 2015, 06:54:36 am
The early hp3456a had a fan.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 16, 2015, 07:56:51 am
I think the 3458A also has a fan
My 34461A is really quiet and does not disturb me at all.

If you want to know what fan noise is, get a Lecroy WaveJet scope 354
That sucker was so loud, I returned it.

Some of my Agilent power supplies had some annoying noise level and I exchanged the fans to low noise types.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on March 16, 2015, 09:13:09 am
So if it hadn't been sold before May 1st would they have pulled it from the shelf and tossed it into a dumpster? Donated it to homeless people?

Tom

Congrats on the purchase.

I think it has to do with Warranty and Calibration.
When I registered my 34461A, they gave me a warranty expiration 42 (36+6) months from _manufacturing date_. They didn't use (or even ask for) the sale date. So to guarantee their standard 36 month warranty, they have to sell the unit within 6 months of manufacturing. I assume it also helps making sure that units still have a fair amount (I guess that's >= 6 months) left on the 1yr calibration.

I had another experience buying a Keysight HH DMM that we later found out had been sitting on a shelf for 4 years. When I tried to register it, Keysight marked it as out of warranty. Had to return it to the dealer and they got me a fresh one directly from Keysight. I assume dealers are required to sell fresh inventory or return it for refreshing (e.g. recalibration).

I don't know if this 42 month policy is official but that seems to be how it works in practice. It's certainly easier to deal with than trying to track the sale date.

Hi
The warranty on the website of Keysight after registering the 34461A is until 2018, but in the invoice of the official distributor in Argentina contained only one year, I must complain to keysight?

Regards?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LabSpokane on March 16, 2015, 02:50:17 pm
HAgilSight isn't perfect to be sure (I have worked with them as a client years ago and have seen good and some bad), but they generally do high quality work. I'm assuming that instead of perfection, that the designers reached the best engineering compromise.  Just like we all do.  :-)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 16, 2015, 08:28:59 pm
Today my Keysight 34470A arrived from a German distributor.
Interestingly it also had this label on the outside of the box, to sell it before May 1st 2015
I have no idea why!

After unpacking, I had it warmed up to lab temperature for about 2 hours and then turned it on.
After a few hours of warmup, I hooked the instrument up to a 2.500 V DC reference.

In comparison:
Both 34401A instruments in the picture are calibrated late 2014
The 34461A was bought calibrated new in December 2013
The ACAL was pressed on the 34470A before measurements got started

Having the extra resolution on the trend chart is really something.

Next, I will hook up my SVR-T 10V reference and keep it running for 24 hours

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JohnnyBerg on March 16, 2015, 08:33:33 pm
@HighVoltage: I like it, especially the results you are showing from the 2.5000V reference  ;D ;D ;D

What was the temperature in the lab? (I suspect 21° ~ 22°)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 16, 2015, 08:41:33 pm
@HighVoltage: I like it, especially the results you are showing from the 2.5000V reference  ;D ;D ;D

What was the temperature in the lab? (I suspect 21° ~ 22°)
@JohnnyBerg, You are fast!
Yes, Lab Temperature is shown at 21.8 degree C right now.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 16, 2015, 09:12:49 pm
Congratulations! Really looks nice! Especially compared to these old dogs..
Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on March 17, 2015, 03:00:52 am
Got my 65A and am wondering about the bundled probe kit; it has a pair of R-B mini pincers, but only included a black hook.  I'm wondering if a red hook might have been missing?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: radioFlash on March 17, 2015, 03:06:48 am

Got my 65A and am wondering about the bundled probe kit; it has a pair of R-B mini pincers, but only included a black hook.  I'm wondering if a red hook might have been missing?
The kit doesn't include a red hook, which is a pretty cheap ass thing to do for a $1400 meter.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LabSpokane on March 17, 2015, 03:15:58 am

Got my 65A and am wondering about the bundled probe kit; it has a pair of R-B mini pincers, but only included a black hook.  I'm wondering if a red hook might have been missing?
The kit doesn't include a red hook, which is a pretty cheap ass thing to do for a $1400 meter.

You didn't want it anyway.  Those hooks are worthless shit. They should just ship the meter without anything so that you'll know that you need to buy decent accessories.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on March 17, 2015, 05:12:11 am
Any news regarding the new 34461, 34465 firmware? I remeber reading that it was schedulet for release yesterday, or did I dream?  :-//
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 17, 2015, 07:40:54 am
I kept the 2.5000 V reference hooked up over night and this is the result I am getting:
It looks to me,  that the reference and the 34470A are performing well.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on March 17, 2015, 08:04:05 am
 :-+
2.500 V DC reference, make and model if you don't mind?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 17, 2015, 08:20:20 am
Any news regarding the new 34461, 34465 firmware? I remeber reading that it was schedulet for release yesterday, or did I dream?  :-//

It was supposed to be, but so far they haven't updated their website. You can, however, download the release notes for it (go to the 1.10 firmware release notes and change the version number to 2.08 in the url), so I'm guessing it's just waiting for someone to flick the switch on.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 17, 2015, 08:53:44 am
:-+
2.500 V DC reference, make and model if you don't mind?
Made by JohnnyBerg of this forum in really good quality!

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on March 17, 2015, 09:05:34 am
Any news regarding the new 34461, 34465 firmware? I remeber reading that it was schedulet for release yesterday, or did I dream?  :-//

It was supposed to be, but so far they haven't updated their website. You can, however, download the release notes for it (go to the 1.10 firmware release notes and change the version number to 2.08 in the url), so I'm guessing it's just waiting for someone to flick the switch on.

Yes

http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Firmware_2.08_Release_Notes.pdf (http://www.keysight.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/Firmware_2.08_Release_Notes.pdf)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on March 17, 2015, 09:12:30 am
Any news regarding the new 34461, 34465 firmware? I remeber reading that it was schedulet for release yesterday, or did I dream?  :-//

It was supposed to be, but so far they haven't updated their website. You can, however, download the release notes for it (go to the 1.10 firmware release notes and change the version number to 2.08 in the url), so I'm guessing it's just waiting for someone to flick the switch on.

I have already downloaded it a few days ago, but thank you all anyway.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: saturation on March 19, 2015, 01:11:34 pm
The full stat display is very helpful, I do all that by hand via a tedious PC connection analysis.   It shows the integrity of the measurement very quickly.

I kept the 2.5000 V reference hooked up over night and this is the result I am getting:
It looks to me,  that the reference and the 34470A are performing well.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: radioFlash on March 19, 2015, 05:23:25 pm
Is there a way to capture the date/time of a reading when doing externally triggering? When I setup external triggering and save the data to a .csv, it captures the start time of the capture, but not a time when each sample is taken. I've looked through the manual and couldn't find a way to do that without resorting to scripting.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 20, 2015, 12:53:24 pm
Is there a way to capture the date/time of a reading when doing externally triggering? When I setup external triggering and save the data to a .csv, it captures the start time of the capture, but not a time when each sample is taken. I've looked through the manual and couldn't find a way to do that without resorting to scripting.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is, which seems like a bit of an oversight. It might be worth contacting Keysight and asking them to add this as a feature, as there is no obvious reason why the data logging couldn't output the time - I can understand that it might not be possible to get timestamps for the measurements in the internal memory, as I'm guessing the readings are just stored in an array.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 20, 2015, 01:02:49 pm
I have had an update about the 34461A's firmware:

Quote from: Keysight
Unfortunately the firmware release has been delayed until further notice as the engineers are performing some additional tests to make sure the firmware works as per the expectations

This has come from their contact centre, so I think "to make sure the firmware works as per the expectations" means they found a pretty significant bug in it. If they are fixing a bug, then it might delay the release further - as I get the impression that their firmware testing procedure takes a while to run.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 20, 2015, 06:21:19 pm
Just received my 34465a from Newark. Firmware is 2.06 as expected.

Any hope on, Um, getting the digitize and memory options for a price closer to free?  ;)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on March 21, 2015, 06:55:44 am
I have had an update about the 34461A's firmware:

Quote from: Keysight
Unfortunately the firmware release has been delayed until further notice as the engineers are performing some additional tests to make sure the firmware works as per the expectations

This has come from their contact centre, so I think "to make sure the firmware works as per the expectations" means they found a pretty significant bug in it. If they are fixing a bug, then it might delay the release further - as I get the impression that their firmware testing procedure takes a while to run.

The update has  arrived  :-+

2015-03-16 2.08 Update to add additional 34460A/34461A functionality and fix miscellaneous 34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A defects.  (http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=NO&nid=-11143.0.00&id=2367633)

I have not installed this yet, I thought I should notify the forum first!
JFG

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 21, 2015, 07:20:58 am
Updated.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/gdfmcbz496c43im/34465a_firmware_update_1.png)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/bmzaglhrvj5dhtp/34465a_updated.jpg)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on March 21, 2015, 07:33:20 am
#dadler
Have you tried the dual display on DCV with ACV as secondary?
JFG
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 21, 2015, 09:13:26 am
The new FW 2.08 seems to work perfect on my 34461A and 34470A
No update issues at all.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 21, 2015, 10:48:44 am
Here are two pictures after the FW update to v2.08, in comparison to a 33461A with the FW v1.10

Top instrument: 34461A, FW v1.10
Middle instrument: 34461A, FW v2.08
Bottom instrument: 34470A, FW v2.08

It seems the trend-chart received a higher resolution (one more digit) on the 34461A, which is really nice, to say the least.
All three instruments are set to the same setting and on the same voltage source

The dual display works excellent on the 34461A



Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 21, 2015, 12:54:46 pm
I have had an update about the 34461A's firmware:

Quote from: Keysight
Unfortunately the firmware release has been delayed until further notice as the engineers are performing some additional tests to make sure the firmware works as per the expectations

This has come from their contact centre, so I think "to make sure the firmware works as per the expectations" means they found a pretty significant bug in it. If they are fixing a bug, then it might delay the release further - as I get the impression that their firmware testing procedure takes a while to run.

The update has  arrived  :-+

2015-03-16 2.08 Update to add additional 34460A/34461A functionality and fix miscellaneous 34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A defects.  (http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=NO&nid=-11143.0.00&id=2367633)

I have not installed this yet, I thought I should notify the forum first!
JFG

That's good news - it's nice to know that the contact centre always has accurate information :palm:
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 21, 2015, 12:57:31 pm
Here are two pictures after the FW update to v2.08, in comparison to a 33461A with the FW v1.10

Top instrument: 34461A, FW v1.10
Middle instrument: 34461A, FW v2.08
Bottom instrument: 34470A, FW v2.08

It seems the trend-chart received a higher resolution (one more digit) on the 34461A, which is really nice, to say the least.
All three instruments are set to the same setting and on the same voltage source

The dual display works excellent on the 34461A

Are both of the 61As scaled in the same way? It looks like the top 61A hasn't been auto-scaled.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on March 21, 2015, 01:03:58 pm
It seems the trend-chart received a higher resolution (one more digit) on the 34461A, which is really nice, to say the least.
The dual display works excellent on the 34461A

Those are really nice firmware upgrades!  :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 21, 2015, 01:18:01 pm

Are both of the 61As scaled in the same way? It looks like the top 61A hasn't been auto-scaled.
Top one was auto-scaled
It is confirmed by the upper, lower values on the scale to the left
Upper (max) value: 5.000 5 V
Lower (min) value: 5.000 4 V
On the old firmware there was no more resolution in between
Adding the extra digit added the extra resolution on the vertical axis.

The new FW v2.08 shows now on the left of the trend chart:
Upper (max) value: 5.000 48 V
Lower (min) value: 5.000 47 V

This is really great and something I did not expect from a firmware upgrade

It seems like we are now having the following resolution on the trend chart:

34461A, FW1.10 +/- 100 uV Resolution
34461A, FW2.08 +/- 10 uV Resolution
34470A, FW2.08 +/- 1 uV Resolution

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on March 21, 2015, 03:06:17 pm
Hi
Content with the new version of firmware  :-+ (34461A)
But I have a question, someone I can clarify why says Time since last calibration: 808 days ??, .......
Buy less than a month ago a representative of Keysight on Argentina

Regards

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 21, 2015, 04:48:02 pm
Another confirmation, that the new firmware v2.08 gives us one more digit of resolution on the 34461A.

Top Screen-shot: 34461A, FW v1.10
Middle Screen-shot: 34461A, FW v2.08
Bottom Screen-shot: 34470A, FW v2.08

Voltage source is a simple AD587 10V reference setup, measured over a short period of time
All three DMM's received the same signal, all three are in 10 PLC mode and all have been pressed "Autoscale Once".


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 21, 2015, 07:50:29 pm
#dadler
Have you tried the dual display on DCV with ACV as secondary?
JFG

Just tried this- it works on screen, but it clicks the relays every couple of seconds and locks up the display for each update. Anyone else seeing this?

Does the same thing with ACV primary and DCV secondary. Manual ranging doesn't help. Is this really implemented by constantly switching relays?

AC+Frequency/Frequency+AC is fine. AC+DC is clicky clacky.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on March 21, 2015, 07:58:49 pm
#dadler
Have you tried the dual display on DCV with ACV as secondary?
JFG

Just tried this- it works on screen, but it clicks the relays every couple of seconds and locks up the display for each update. Anyone else seeing this?

Does the same thing with ACV primary and DCV secondary. Manual ranging doesn't help. Is this really implemented by constantly switching relays?

Yes, measuring about 3 seconds, 3 seconds locks and switching relays and the cycle is repeated |O, in ACV no, everything ok


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 21, 2015, 08:02:30 pm
#dadler
Have you tried the dual display on DCV with ACV as secondary?
JFG

Just tried this- it works on screen, but it clicks the relays every couple of seconds and locks up the display for each update. Anyone else seeing this?

Does the same thing with ACV primary and DCV secondary. Manual ranging doesn't help. Is this really implemented by constantly switching relays?

Yes, measuring about 3 seconds, 3 seconds locks and switching relays and the cycle is repeated |O, in ACV no, everything ok

Argh, I can't allow the relays to constantly click like that. The display also hanging drives me nuts.

The manual says:

Quote
1 After making one o rmore primary measurements for approximately 4 seconds, the DMM makes one
secondary measurement.

No mention of the implementation relying on constant relay switching  :scared:
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 21, 2015, 08:47:24 pm
Just tried this- it works on screen, but it clicks the relays every couple of seconds and locks up the display for each update. Anyone else seeing this?

Yes, it is the same annoying relay action on the 34470A
Interestingly the much older 34410A does not do this for dual display action.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 21, 2015, 09:07:36 pm
Just tried this- it works on screen, but it clicks the relays every couple of seconds and locks up the display for each update. Anyone else seeing this?

Yes, it is the same annoying relay action on the 34470A
Interestingly the much older 34410A does not do this for dual display action.

I'm new to the party here-is this new functionality across the 3446/7X range? I just can't imagine that this would be desired behavior. Imagine extended duration datalogging using up a lot of relay cycles.

OMRON G6AK-274P-STLT-US 5v

Datasheet: http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-g6a.pdf (http://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/en-g6a.pdf)

Durability Mechanical: 100,000,000 operations min. (at 36,000 operations/hr)
Durability Electrical: 500,000 operations min. (at 1,800 operations/hr)

This means we can only collect measurements for 6.342 years  :-- Not doing the math on the electrical durability.

Ok, so maybe that's a non-issue  ;). But the clicks and hanging display drive me batty.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KE5FX on March 21, 2015, 09:39:58 pm
Amusingly, the first thing I noticed in the new 34461A firmware is that they screwed up the "4" character in the font.  It no longer looks as if it belongs in the same character set.  :scared:  You can see the effect in the shots HighVoltage posted. 

I demand a refund!  Or, um, a free 34470A upgrade, if that's easier for Keysight.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 21, 2015, 09:52:50 pm
Another no so nice surprise:

Even with the FW update, you can only use a 5k Ohm 2W and 4W thermistor for temperature measurements.
The 34410A allowed for 2.2k and 10k thermistors.
You really have to wonder, why such a simple implementation would not make it in to huge FW update.

The RTD values can be set, if needed. Just not the thermistors.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 21, 2015, 10:07:45 pm
Hi
Content with the new version of firmware  :-+ (34461A)
But I have a question, someone I can clarify why says Time since last calibration: 808 days ??, .......
Buy less than a month ago a representative of Keysight on Argentina

Regards

It is similar on mine - using the web interface you can find out the calibration date, which for mine is showing as "Last Calibration Date: Tuesday, January 1, 2013", despite the fact mine was calibrated on the 19th April 2013.

My guess is that the time since the last calibration requires the meter to store the date in a difference place to the cal string - so next time you get it calibrated, the time display should be correct.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TooOldForThis on March 22, 2015, 02:18:52 am
I did some quick capacitance measurements using the 34461A's new feature compared to two other devices.

With the more instruments I get, the less know about the parts I'm measuring. 

 
Notes:   
* The 34461 initially measured a 100nF cap at 81nF but it slowly crept up to 85 over a few minutes.
** The DM3068 jumped all over the place with pF range cap.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 22, 2015, 10:03:30 am
It is similar on mine - using the web interface you can find out the calibration date, which for mine is showing as "Last Calibration Date: Tuesday, January 1, 2013", despite the fact mine was calibrated on the 19th April 2013.

My guess is that the time since the last calibration requires the meter to store the date in a difference place to the cal string - so next time you get it calibrated, the time display should be correct.

My  34461A also shows 809 days and that might be right.
The 34470A shows 27 days since last calibration.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 22, 2015, 10:28:18 am
I did some quick capacitance measurements using the 34461A's new feature compared to two other devices.

With the more instruments I get, the less know about the parts I'm measuring. 

 
Notes:   
* The 34461 initially measured a 100nF cap at 81nF but it slowly crept up to 85 over a few minutes.
** The DM3068 jumped all over the place with pF range cap.

The datasheet only claims 0.5% accuracy for capacitance and in the lowest readings only 1%
May be it is not meant to be a replacement for a capacitance meter and only gives us an indication
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on March 22, 2015, 02:29:26 pm
Completely free and worth every cent if you ask me  :-+. DC + AC is bordering useless  |O, but the other improvements are very good for the price and makes my 33461A even more useable. So all in all I am satisfied. Also remember that if you do not get the one you love, you just have to love the one you get.
 
Johan Fredrik.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 22, 2015, 04:04:31 pm
I did some quick capacitance measurements using the 34461A's new feature compared to two other devices.

With the more instruments I get, the less know about the parts I'm measuring. 

Just for a giggle, I tried repeating your experiment, using a cheap 100nF leaded capacitor.

Averaged over 157 samples, my 34465A quotes a mean value of 106.87nF and std dev of 0.07nF.

My Fluke 89 IV says 103.5nF.

My Fluke 289 says 106.5nF. All so far, so good.

However: my HP 4395A impedance analyser can't make head nor tail of it. The cap's amplitude and phase response above a few MHz is repeatable but complicated, making the equivalent circuit very sensitive to small measurement errors. Each time I press the button which calculates an equivalent circuit for the connected device, I get a different answer, and the answers only really agree on the cap's resonant frequency, which is about 5.42 MHz.

If I limit the analysis to 500kHz, I get C = 97.64nF, ESR = 53.6mOhm, and ESL = 13.1nH.

Not sure what the moral of the story is here, if there even is one. Probably something about measuring components under conditions which reflect how they'll actually be used. Also, a cheap 100nF leaded capacitor makes a crappy decoupler.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 22, 2015, 06:31:35 pm
I did some quick capacitance measurements using the 34461A's new feature compared to two other devices.

With the more instruments I get, the less know about the parts I'm measuring. 

 
Notes:   
* The 34461 initially measured a 100nF cap at 81nF but it slowly crept up to 85 over a few minutes.
** The DM3068 jumped all over the place with pF range cap.

I seem to trust my DE-5000 for accurate capacitance readings over any of my various DMMs. The DER EE unit is cheap but built for the purpose. The fact that capacitance was added to the 34461a with a firmware update leads me to believe this is just an add-on, nice to have convenience feature.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEVblog on March 22, 2015, 11:02:29 pm
DC + AC is bordering useless  |O

Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rsivan on March 22, 2015, 11:08:13 pm
HELLO,
on my 34461A I notice another problem: when doing continuity test ,the beep is not stable ,it flickering ,very ugly to ear ,any one same prob.?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: tautech on March 22, 2015, 11:19:26 pm
DC + AC is bordering useless  |O

Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/msg634294/#msg634294 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/msg634294/#msg634294)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 23, 2015, 12:04:46 am
DC + AC is bordering useless  |O

Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?

I think useless is a little too far - the locking up of the screen is a bit irritating (but then you can lock the meter up by pressing a button too soon after boot). The clicking of the relays is annoying, but how often are you going to be using both? As to the relay life, having them switching constantly will kill them quicker, but I know I will only be using both readings very occasionally, so its not really going to affect me - and I'm guessing Keysight thought it wouldn't be used very much. So the only concern for me is accidentally leaving the AC second measurements on - I would much prefer a soft button that enabled 2nd measurements for only 5 readings or so.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 23, 2015, 12:08:30 am
DC + AC is bordering useless  |O

Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?

Here is a video of how it behaves: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on March 23, 2015, 05:06:38 am
DC + AC is bordering useless  |O

Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?

If I prefere to take out the Fluke 287 to messure the AC component continusly then I would not us this function, meaning it is of no use to me. BORDERING useless in my opinion.
Just my 2 THB.

Johan-Fredrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KedasProbe on March 23, 2015, 02:54:06 pm
DC + AC is bordering useless  |O
Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?

Here is a video of how it behaves: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa)
I would probably also find this fluctuating refresh rate to annoying to use.
Maybe for very slow changing measurement it would be ok.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: economist on March 23, 2015, 07:53:54 pm
DC + AC is bordering useless  |O

Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?

Here is a video of how it behaves: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa)

I have a new Keithley DMM7510 and it does the same thing if you are measuring DC and have AC as a secondary measurement. The relay clicking is a little faster, however.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 23, 2015, 08:01:57 pm
DC + AC is bordering useless  |O

Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?

Here is a video of how it behaves: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa)

I have a new Keithley DMM7510 and it does the same thing if you are measuring DC and have AC as a secondary measurement. The relay clicking is a little faster, however.

Hmm. Darn? I was hoping it was a bug. My Brymen BM869 and Fluke 287 seem to handle DC+AC just fine. Granted, at no where near the same accuracy/resolution. But still. Thanks for the data-point.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: economist on March 23, 2015, 08:17:33 pm
Hmm. Darn? I was hoping it was a bug. My Brymen BM869 and Fluke 287 seem to handle DC+AC just fine. Granted, at no where near the same accuracy/resolution. But still. Thanks for the data-point.

I was thinking the same thing (that hand held meters with secondary display seem not to have this issue) and thought perhaps the cause was the resolution. But, turning down the resolution on the DMM7510 does not change things -- I still get that clicking relay. I also have an Agilent 34461a with the latest firmware and it is doing exactly what your 34470a is doing in the video. I agree with you that this makes secondary AC display just about useless in practice.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 23, 2015, 09:38:28 pm
Hmm. Darn? I was hoping it was a bug. My Brymen BM869 and Fluke 287 seem to handle DC+AC just fine. Granted, at no where near the same accuracy/resolution. But still. Thanks for the data-point.

I was thinking the same thing (that hand held meters with secondary display seem not to have this issue) and thought perhaps the cause was the resolution. But, turning down the resolution on the DMM7510 does not change things -- I still get that clicking relay.

Why would changing the resolution make any difference? The AC and DC take difference paths in the meter, those that click use a relay to change between the paths, those that don't are either using a multiplexer (to silently switch between the paths) or have two measurement circuits - I'm guessing not many, if any at all, have two measurement circuits.

So the question is why did they choose to use a relay rather than a multiplexer? Perhaps, they can achieve a better signal integrity with a relay?

With the 61A, it is an added feature, so you can't expect it not to click, considering changing from DCV to ACV on the front panel causes a relay to click. Whilst the 65A and 70A are designed so the board is common between all of the models (including the 60/61A), they could have potentially used a multiplexer instead of the relay (unless it compromises the measurements). But my guess is that they were never electronically designed for dual measurements (AC/DC wise), but they wanted to add it into the firmware as an extra feature, with the hope that it might be useful.

I think, in their minds at least, if you need to measure both AC and DC constantly, you will have two multimeters set up.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: economist on March 23, 2015, 10:33:24 pm
Here is a quick video of the switching on the Keithley DMM7510. The source is 1V output from a Rigol DP832.

https://vimeo.com/user20472841/review/123033131/1f78e82b29
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 23, 2015, 10:55:16 pm
Hmm. Darn? I was hoping it was a bug. My Brymen BM869 and Fluke 287 seem to handle DC+AC just fine. Granted, at no where near the same accuracy/resolution. But still. Thanks for the data-point.

I was thinking the same thing (that hand held meters with secondary display seem not to have this issue) and thought perhaps the cause was the resolution. But, turning down the resolution on the DMM7510 does not change things -- I still get that clicking relay.

Why would changing the resolution make any difference? The AC and DC take difference paths in the meter, those that click use a relay to change between the paths, those that don't are either using a multiplexer (to silently switch between the paths) or have two measurement circuits - I'm guessing not many, if any at all, have two measurement circuits.

So the question is why did they choose to use a relay rather than a multiplexer? Perhaps, they can achieve a better signal integrity with a relay?

With the 61A, it is an added feature, so you can't expect it not to click, considering changing from DCV to ACV on the front panel causes a relay to click. Whilst the 65A and 70A are designed so the board is common between all of the models (including the 60/61A), they could have potentially used a multiplexer instead of the relay (unless it compromises the measurements). But my guess is that they were never electronically designed for dual measurements (AC/DC wise), but they wanted to add it into the firmware as an extra feature, with the hope that it might be useful.

I think, in their minds at least, if you need to measure both AC and DC constantly, you will have two multimeters set up.

But changing from DC to AC, at least on the 34465a, does not cause any relay click.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 23, 2015, 11:46:27 pm

But changing from DC to AC, at least on the 34465a, does not cause any relay click.

On the 34470A and the 34401A a relay clicks, when switching between AC and DC measurements.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 24, 2015, 12:38:35 am
But changing from DC to AC, at least on the 34465a, does not cause any relay click.

I have been told (in the last hour or so) otherwise - I'm not sure if the relay will click when the meter is in its stopped mode (i.e. not taking measurements), I think it probably would, but it might be a reason why you are not hearing it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 24, 2015, 01:36:51 am
But changing from DC to AC, at least on the 34465a, does not cause any relay click.

I have been told (in the last hour or so) otherwise - I'm not sure if the relay will click when the meter is in its stopped mode (i.e. not taking measurements), I think it probably would, but it might be a reason why you are not hearing it.

Ah you are indeed correct. I think because it's a singular click almost in concert with the button press that I psychologically filtered it out. I guess that's why all the clicky-clacky during AC+DC was jolting to me.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 24, 2015, 05:27:25 pm
Today I tested how long the 34470A need after turn ON, before it reads stable
The instrument was hooked up to a stable and warmed up 10V reference and then turned on.

Lab temperature was about 21 to 22 °C

Here are my screen shots:

34470A_after-04min.png
Screen shot after 4 min of turn on

34470A_after-37min.png
Screen shot after 37 min of turn on

34461A_Warm.png
Proof, that the reference was pretty stable during the 37 min, shown here with the 34461A in parallel to the 34470A
Only the 34461A was on for several hours already.

It seems that the 34470A needs about 30 min to stabilize the readings and shows reliable numbers.
 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on March 24, 2015, 07:42:27 pm
Have you done this test on your 34461A? And if so, do you care to share the result?

Johan-Fredrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: DJ on March 25, 2015, 03:59:08 am
Today I tested how long the 34470A need after turn ON, before it reads stable
The instrument was hooked up to a stable and warmed up 10V reference and then turned on.

Lab temperature was about 21 to 22 °C

Here are my screen shots:

34470A_after-04min.png
Screen shot after 4 min of turn on

34470A_after-37min.png
Screen shot after 37 min of turn on

34461A_Warm.png
Proof, that the reference was pretty stable during the 37 min, shown here with the 34461A in parallel to the 34470A
Only the 34461A was on for several hours already.

It seems that the 34470A needs about 30 min to stabilize the readings and shows reliable numbers.

That is an extremely useful post! It has talked me out of that extra digit, which was pretty much a "that would be neat!" thing.

6 1/2 should be plenty to see drift, things leaking, discharging etc.

I owe you a beer!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 25, 2015, 09:16:10 am
Have you done this test on your 34461A? And if so, do you care to share the result?

Johan-Fredrik

Sure, here you go....

The 34461A was turned off over night.
The 10V reference has been on for a few days now.

It seems the 34461A is a little faster in getting stable and reliable readings
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 25, 2015, 09:20:09 am

That is an extremely useful post! It has talked me out of that extra digit, which was pretty much a "that would be neat!" thing.

6 1/2 should be plenty to see drift, things leaking, discharging etc.

I owe you a beer!


Especially since the 34461A now shows one more digit after the firmware update, we can see a drift much easier than before. For me that is probably the best feature of all the firmware enhancements.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on March 25, 2015, 09:43:38 am


It seems the 34461A is a little faster in getting stable and reliable readings

Thanks for the data, very useful  :-+
Regards
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on March 25, 2015, 01:21:28 pm

That is an extremely useful post! It has talked me out of that extra digit, which was pretty much a "that would be neat!" thing.

6 1/2 should be plenty to see drift, things leaking, discharging etc.

I owe you a beer!


Especially since the 34461A now shows one more digit after the firmware update, we can see a drift much easier than before. For me that is probably the best feature of all the firmware enhancements.

I owe you two beer at least, you have convinced my that my 34461A will serve me good for a few year forward and I would rather spend my money on more frequent calibrations of all my gear. A full calibration of my Rohde & Schwarz CMS 54 is > 750$ so I keep my 34461A until it breaks (or I) and spend my money on calibration and more stuff I don't need.

Johan-Fredrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 25, 2015, 04:45:15 pm
Johan-Fredrik, I think you will be very happy with the 33461A after the firmware update. Both of my 33461A's are working exceptionally well.
I take you guys up on the beer offer, next time I am traveling to your country.


Here is another good comparison between the 33461A and the 33470A

Conditions:
- Both instruments ON for several hours
- 10V reference on for a few days
- Both instruments on: 100 PLC, Auto-Ranging, Auto-Scale-Once (pressed once), parallel connected to 10V reference,
- Run time about 2h:18 min as shown in "elapsed time" and 2077 samples taken

 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 25, 2015, 05:01:22 pm
Which voltage reference are you using?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 25, 2015, 05:53:29 pm
This 10V voltage reference was the Geller Labs SVR Series (Not the SVR-T)
I will hook up the SVR-T to the 33470A in the next few days to see, how it performs, will be an interesting comparison.




Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Vgkid on March 25, 2015, 09:14:04 pm
It will be interesting to see the actual drift rates after a year. On paper the 34470a is rather close to my 3456a.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Andrew on April 01, 2015, 10:51:59 am
Upgraded my 34461 to firmware v2.08 and tried out the new capacitance feature.

I noticed the "numeral" display moving about quite a bit depending on the range and value, that is, not a particularly stable reading. Made a couple of very short banana-to-croc leads (100mm tip to tip) and connected a 1nF 1% foil cap.

The attached images are what I found using manual range switching on the "trend" display starting on the 1nF range then switching through 10nF ("kissing fish"!), 100nF and 1uF.

Trying different capacitor values from about 470pF through to 1000uF, and different capacitor types - ceramic, polyester, electro etc, I noticed the cyclic behaviour mostly in the 1nF to 1uF range.

Anyone experience similar variation with v2.08 or is this a very bad "pebkac" error? :)

And...
...first thing I noticed in the new 34461A firmware is that they screwed up the "4" character in the font...
...I don't like the altered "4" either. ;D

Cheers
Andrew
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on April 15, 2015, 01:23:32 am
I don't think it's a pebkac - I've tried a poly cap and I get the same results (using sprung clips at the end of a metre long cable). I originally thought it was going to be an issue with certain capacitor types, but I don't think it is. Unfortunately, I don't have many through hole capacitors, which makes testing harder.

I've attached my version of what Andrew did, but condensed into a single trend plot - this is with a WIMA MKS-4 poly. The second attachment is the data (via CSV output) with the error margins as per the meter's specifications (61A) - I was wondering if the oscillations were within the error margins, which they are just for the 1 nF, but they aren't for the 10 nF range. There is no extra data in the gnuplot graph, the different ranges are done at different apertures / PLCs.

I did also notice that the measured value changes quite significantly between the 1 and 10 uF ranges, which is what the third image (screen 2) shows, with me creating a square wave by switching between the ranges (this was a tantalum cap).

I think part of the issue with the capacitance mode is that it is designed as an extra utility feature, rather than a main measurement mode - hence the lack of options with it. It also measures the capacitance by charging and discharging the capacitor (essentially using the ohms current source and voltage measurements), which means it will differ from meters those that use the frequency method. It also means that the measured value changes as the capacitor is charging (screen 3 of the attachments), I do wonder if this is considered in the accuracy specifications.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on April 15, 2015, 10:33:08 pm
My 34461A

VISHAY-RODERSTEIN MKP-1837 10nF / 100VAC/160VDC, MKP-1837, Metalized Polypropylene, 1% Tolerance

Russian_NOS_Silver Mica - 1nF / 350V, Silver Mica Capacitor (SGMZ-A), 5%, Each


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on April 25, 2015, 07:03:41 am
I upgraded my 34465A to firmware 02.08 and discovered the DCV peak reading is very useful - I used it to quick check the performance of my HP 33120A function generator.  Result: within spec, with only a 0.4mV output offset; less than 1/2 digit of the 1mV resolution offset setting.  The peak is about 2 digits better, 1.39998V P-to-P for a 700mV setting.  It's pretty neat that this DMM alone can be used to run through either the Q (quick) or P (performance) verifications since they're done at 1kHz/100Hz (depending on function), and this DMM is precise enough!  Is it possible to measure DCV peak as a primary measurement?  I poked around and couldn't find a way off hand...

I also noticed that holding down a key, including soft keys, for a couple of seconds brings up the help section for that function!  Brilliant!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on April 25, 2015, 10:47:29 am
I also noticed that holding down a key, including soft keys, for a couple of seconds brings up the help section for that function!  Brilliant!

Yes, all new Keysight gear has that built in help function and it is really neat, also on the new scopes.
I don't think you can make the DC Peak to the primary measurement, at least I have not figured it out, if it should be possible

Yesterday, I compared my 34470A to a calibration lab just for fun and hooked it up to a calibrated Fluke 732A voltage standard.
The meter was warmed up for a few days in the cal lab at 23°C and the CAL button was pressed, before we took some measurements.
It was really nice to see 9.999,998 VDC on the 34470A and an almost flat line in the trend chart.
Actually the value written on the 732A was 9.999,999,99
The labs 3458A showed 10.000,000,4

So far, my 34470A seems to be a really reliable meter and I am very happy with it.





Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Lizerd on April 25, 2015, 06:45:27 pm
How do I buy the 34465A with Digi option ?,
Do I have to request/order the digi "unlock code" from Keysight direct ?
Any one ordered a extra option for your 344xx ?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on April 25, 2015, 06:51:36 pm
I ordered the 2M Reading Memory and the unlock code was sent to me by email

The fast DIG option is only available if you place it with your order.
Based on Keysight information, it is not user installable.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on April 26, 2015, 01:54:27 am
Really? Both the DIG and MEM options are just unlock codes (well license files) - there are no physical changes to the meter. Even the GPIB option is designed to be fitted by the end user. It would be mad of them to restrict you to buying an option only when your purchase the device.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on April 26, 2015, 03:06:56 am
That's unfortunate -- I was hoping to add the digitize option eventually.

Newark will sell it to you it seems: http://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/3446digu/digitizing-advanced-triggering/dp/30Y4300 (http://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/3446digu/digitizing-advanced-triggering/dp/30Y4300)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kwass on April 26, 2015, 04:16:27 am
That's unfortunate -- I was hoping to add the digitize option eventually.

Newark will sell it to you it seems: http://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/3446digu/digitizing-advanced-triggering/dp/30Y4300 (http://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/3446digu/digitizing-advanced-triggering/dp/30Y4300)

Page 27 of the manual (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1898969.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1898969.pdf)) says it's "Distributor or End Customer" installable -- it's just a license.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Lizerd on April 26, 2015, 06:26:55 am
Yeep it's a license

Quote
34465A-DIG Digitizing and advanced triggering license
34465A-MEM 2 MB memory license

So I have to order it direct from KeySight, was hoping a could get it from the same distributer as the main unit.

But is't Newark is the same as Farnell ?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on April 26, 2015, 07:53:57 am
All the German distributors have something like this on their website for the DIG option:

Option zum Keysight Digital-Multimeter 34470A:
Digitizing und erweiterte Triggerung ab Werk installiert.


Usually this means an installation by Keysight, before it is delivered to the enduser.
But who knows, may be it is a mistake.

I will call a German distributor tomorrow and will find out .
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on April 26, 2015, 08:25:53 am
The 3446DIGU option is listed as customer installed...
http://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2340971&nid=1119130.0.00&id=2340971 (http://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2340971&nid=1119130.0.00&id=2340971)
Maybe there are different product codes depending on whether it's factory or customer installed?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on April 27, 2015, 12:14:01 pm
I just got a notice from a German distributor, that this DIG option is only available at the time of ordering from Keysight. But they also said that a different, customer installable, DIG option, is available. WTF?

They are trying to figure it out and will let me know soon.
Go figure ... we are at the same spot as before.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HKJ on April 27, 2015, 12:18:14 pm
Could it be that distributors are not allowed to enter the DIG options, they must buy the DMM from Keysight with installed option or the customer must do his own installation of the option.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on April 27, 2015, 12:32:38 pm
Newark seems to sell this Upgrade! (http://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/3446digu/digitizing-advanced-triggering/dp/30Y4300) and the same with distrelec.de (http://www.distrelec.de/de/Upgrade-DIG-Keysight-3446DIGU/p/30011646) And my local distributer (https://www.elfaelektronikk.no/elfa3~no_no/elfa/init.do?item=30-011-646&toc=0) confirmed that they sells this Upgrade but say it is not in stock from Keysight.

Johan-Fredrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on April 27, 2015, 04:09:10 pm
The user manual gives a good summary of installable options. See this page:
http://rfmw.em.keysight.com/bihelpfiles/Truevolt/WebHelp/US/Content/__A_Preliminary%20Information/02%20-%20Models%20and%20Options.htm (http://rfmw.em.keysight.com/bihelpfiles/Truevolt/WebHelp/US/Content/__A_Preliminary%20Information/02%20-%20Models%20and%20Options.htm)

34465A-DIG is a factory-installed option.
3446DIGU is the distributor- or end-customer-installed option.

All options are available both as factory-installed or end-user-installed, but have different option codes for each install type.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on April 29, 2015, 03:30:23 pm
I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.

There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: mike_kawasaki on April 29, 2015, 07:31:17 pm
I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.

There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.

I'm not working within that division, but can give you perspective that it is common to have two ordering options -- installed or as a separate line item.  This is really a factor of the supply chain set up and managing through distributors.  Know it isn't optimal, but a reality of managing different supply chain and delivery processes -- there's a different workflow depending on if ordered with instrument or as after-sale option.

However, agree we can make this more clear.  I'll give the message to the Product Marketing Engineer and see if we can improve the documentation/website.

Mike Kawasaki (Keysight)

b.t.w.  Just love reading these long discussion strings.  Glad to know there are lots of people with passion regarding electronics and/or test equipment.  Sometimes I feel like I'm unusual that find these topics interesting, when nobody understands what I do for a living... but the EEVblog community does!!  8)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Coliban on April 29, 2015, 07:54:39 pm
Quote from: mike_kawasaki
...
b.t.w.  Just love reading these long discussion strings.  Glad to know there are lots of people with passion regarding electronics and/or test equipment.  Sometimes I feel like I'm unusual that find these topics interesting, when nobody understands what I do for a living... but the EEVblog community does!!  8)

Yes, i used about 10% of the knowledge, we acquired at the studies (in electronics) in the past and now nearly nothing, so i like to have at least in my private sphere some devices and as a hobby, some exercises from my time at university... (even if i either don´t work very much with them  :-\  )
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HKJ on April 29, 2015, 08:25:13 pm
I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.

There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.

Was it not supposed to be a software option with just a keycode, why does it take weeks? Is Keysight not ready with the software yet and need a new software upgrade before a keycode will work?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on April 29, 2015, 08:40:41 pm
I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.

There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.

I'm not working within that division, but can give you perspective that it is common to have two ordering options -- installed or as a separate line item.  This is really a factor of the supply chain set up and managing through distributors.  Know it isn't optimal, but a reality of managing different supply chain and delivery processes -- there's a different workflow depending on if ordered with instrument or as after-sale option.

However, agree we can make this more clear.  I'll give the message to the Product Marketing Engineer and see if we can improve the documentation/website.

Mike Kawasaki (Keysight)

b.t.w.  Just love reading these long discussion strings.  Glad to know there are lots of people with passion regarding electronics and/or test equipment.  Sometimes I feel like I'm unusual that find these topics interesting, when nobody understands what I do for a living... but the EEVblog community does!!  8)
Mike,
It would be beneficial for the end user and Keysight distributors if this would be streamlined. The German keysight distributor needed 2 days to find out the details of this option. The MEM option for my 34470A was delivered within 24h by email.
Good to have someone from Keysight reading our comments.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on April 29, 2015, 08:43:51 pm
Was it not supposed to be a software option with just a keycode, why does it take weeks? Is Keysight not ready with the software yet and need a new software upgrade before a keycode will work?

Yes, it is allegedly a software code.
But for some reasons it is listed as "hardware" for the distributor and it has the ridicules 4-5 weeks delivery time attached.
Time will tell, may be I am getting the code and certificate by email soon.
I will let you know, when I get it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on April 29, 2015, 09:02:03 pm
I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.

There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.

I'm not working within that division, but can give you perspective that it is common to have two ordering options -- installed or as a separate line item.  This is really a factor of the supply chain set up and managing through distributors.  Know it isn't optimal, but a reality of managing different supply chain and delivery processes -- there's a different workflow depending on if ordered with instrument or as after-sale option.

However, agree we can make this more clear.  I'll give the message to the Product Marketing Engineer and see if we can improve the documentation/website.

Mike Kawasaki (Keysight)

b.t.w.  Just love reading these long discussion strings.  Glad to know there are lots of people with passion regarding electronics and/or test equipment.  Sometimes I feel like I'm unusual that find these topics interesting, when nobody understands what I do for a living... but the EEVblog community does!!  8)


 :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Smith on May 06, 2015, 06:12:41 pm
Just received my new 34465A at work. I've upgraded the firmware and played with it for half an hour.

The good: It really feels like a quality unit, the display looks nice and crisp and is viewable from about every angle. Probes look and feel nice. Layout of the buttons seems easy to get used to, and the buttons feel nice. Measurements are fast and accurate. I like the bargraph, trendgraph and histrogram. Long USB cable is included.

The bad: The casing looks more like an industrial device rather than an engineering measurement device.  The menus are a real disaster. The grabbers for the probes look cheap and the "needle probes" are very blunt.

Overall I am very pleased with with the unit.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on May 06, 2015, 06:21:09 pm
I agree - the included accessories are junk. The wire used is the same one hung low brand I received with some cheapies from eBay. I kinda wish they would just leave them out and I could put the few dollars towards other probes. I use my (excellent) Fluke probes.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on May 06, 2015, 09:05:57 pm
Time will tell, may be I am getting the code and certificate by email soon.
I will let you know, when I get it.
No email so far....
Waiting a little longer.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bill21 on June 09, 2015, 08:27:57 pm
Just got my 34465A yesterday.  Curiously, it doesn't have the big orange "sell by" sticker on the outer box as previous posters have shown.  Did everyone else have such a sticker?

Looks like it was manufactured and calibrated near the end of February.  I would have liked to have a bit longer before the calibration certificate expires, but I guess it's not that big a deal since I'm not doing anything that requires a current cal certificate.  I was a little surprised to see the calibration count was in the 70s, but then I realised that the counter increments with each step in the calibration.

I still have to play around with it a bit, but so far I'm pretty happy with it.

I have experienced a problem though: I left the meter for a while on the trend chart screen as it measured temperature using a Fluke type K thermocouple probe.  When I cam back to it, I unplugged the probe and a USB stick that was plugged in the whole time.  I then found the meter to unresponsive to any button presses - I had to hold down the power button to reboot it.  I haven't been able to reproduce the problem.  I've since upgraded the firmware to 2.08.  Anyone else experience any freezes?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on June 09, 2015, 08:59:52 pm
I've since upgraded the firmware to 2.08.  Anyone else experience any freezes?

No, I have never experienced that problem.
FW v 2.08 works extremely well for me.

And the fast DIG option also arrived and works really well.
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sparky on June 09, 2015, 09:54:52 pm
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.

Looking forward to it!  I wonder if the DIG option will help increase sample rate when streaming measurements via USB to MATLAB?  With the 34461A I can stream 1000 samples/sec to MATLAB (I posted a script in the Agilent 34461A thread).  I'm curious to know if 34465A is faster with the DIG option when doing the same thing.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on July 20, 2015, 07:23:02 pm
I've since upgraded the firmware to 2.08.  Anyone else experience any freezes?

No, I have never experienced that problem.
FW v 2.08 works extremely well for me.

And the fast DIG option also arrived and works really well.
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.

Any updates on the DIG option?

It seems the DIG option is only really useful if you get the memory upgrade as well, 50k readings a second fills up fast when you have a 50k readings memory limit.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sparky on July 20, 2015, 10:19:30 pm
And the fast DIG option also arrived and works really well.
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.
Any updates on the DIG option?
It seems the DIG option is only really useful if you get the memory upgrade as well, 50k readings a second fills up fast when you have a 50k readings memory limit.

I'm also looking forward to hearing more about the DIG option...hopefully HighVoltage will get a chance to write about it soon...

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: janekivi on August 09, 2015, 04:23:03 pm
34465A
Yes, probes are not sharp. Firmware is 2.09 now. Power cord is made in Austria - not Australia!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on August 09, 2015, 07:40:28 pm
Finally, here's my story, up to now..

I got my 34465A end of June, GPIB and DIG options.
Very nice instrument, compared to my 34401A from 1993.. especially the comfortable graphical interface and all these direct access / display features. Big win ! Also see other post about 2 very mighty digitizing measurements, I already did with this instrument (DCV and DCI).
 
Now to the bugs I very soon discovered.
The calibration date had been 3 weeks earlier, 2nd June, with very freshly calibrated Fluke 5720A.
As the instrument already had been produced in January, Keysights calibration policy required a 2nd calibration run before delivery, as 3 months had passed in between (No orange sticker any more!)

Normal calibration is exactly 76, would have been 152 for my instrument, but it came with 222!
Very odd already.

I always check new instruments on receipt.
Have to say, that I own a 3458A, and a Fluke 5442A, which both are uncertain to about 1ppm in DCV, on all DCV ranges .. otherwise I wouldn't have had the chance to find these bugs..

OK, I checked 100mV, 1V, 10V DCV. All three ranges were in accordance to my equipment within < 1ppm!
With each instrument, there's a "Certificate Of Calibration" and a verification Test Report on the backside, which contains the read-back of some of the just-before calibrated modes and ranges.

These DCV ranges were also spot-on during verification, as expected, i.e. less than 1ppm.
So were 10KOhm and other modes.

2nd odd thing now was, that the divide-by-hundred HV ranges, i.e. 100V, 500V and 1kV were all off by 6 .. 14ppm.
(Again, the 3458A and the 5442A both do exact 10V => 100V transfers , < 1ppm uncertainty, by auto-calibration!!)

That already caught my eye, as such an instrument should not drift so far off, in 3 weeks time, and without any possible voltage / power burden  in between, when all the lower DCV ranges were spot-on..
The 100:1 divider should also be stable, at least it should not drift by 16ppm.. that would bust the 90d limit as it would bust the 1yr. limit.

Anyhow, I now re-calibrated the HV ranges only, by applying 100V and 500V, as described in the manual.
After storing the cal constants, the instrument displayed exactly 100.00000V, 500.0000V and 1000.0000V, within 1ppm (the 34465A displays 7 digits, if using statistics math function), as expected, and as already checked during verification at Keysight.

Temperature is constant to a few tenths of °C in my lab, during short term measurements, by the way.

As soon as I triggered the ACAL function, the very same calibration offset as before was introduced, i.e +9ppm for 100V, +16ppm for 1kV range. I repeated that several times, but very obviously , the ACAL does not work correctly in the HV ranges. It irreversibly busts the calibration.
Specification is at least violated, as ACAL claims to improve the T.C. from 5ppm/K to 1ppm/K.
Also the 90d limit will be violated, if additional drifts occur.

Changing the inner temperature lead to even more crazy ACAL readings.
I strongly assume a firmware error . The exchange instrument, I received  a few days ago, is also spot on in the low DCV ranges, but off by around 10ppm on the HV ranges. (Already FW 2.09)

The 2nd bug is accessible to everybody, and confirmed already on both 34465A, and also on a 34470A.
(All TueVolt DMMs share the same FW 2.08 or 2.09)

If you apply a constant voltage on the HV ranges, like 100V on the 100V range, change the impedance setting from AUTO to 10MOhm.
The instrument is definitely fixed in the 10M divider mode, so there is absolutely no change in the hardware setting.
Anyhow, the reading will increase by +3ppm, reversibly.
Only explanation is a firmware bug also.

3rd bug is a mechanical one.
The lever of the front / rear switch is much too flexible. The plastics is too soft or too thin, so it bends by engaging the Shadow switch.
In my case, releasing the switch to front input again, did not feel fine, and the switch often was hooked.
The occurrence of this error depends on the spring force of the switch, I think.
Typical mechanical design fault.

Anybody else might also check these faults on his own instrument, even though the first fault is only evident to 34465A/34470A owners, and who were capable of checking 100V and 1kV calibration very stably / precisely.

I expect an analysis from Keysight, and hope for confirmation and repair of the assumed faulty firmware.

I have to say, that the reception of this assumed fault by Keysight is very good (starting with kind assistance by Mike Kawasaki), and the support extremely alert, as I already got another new instrument, and they wish to analyse the "defect" instrument in their development in Malaysia.

Frank

 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: saturation on August 10, 2015, 11:35:03 am
Thanks Dr Frank, this issue would be difficult to catch without a higher accuracy reference. 

Thanks to you everyone will benefit.  Its good to hear Keysight is very responsive to questions, I had the same experience with the 1272a DMM bug when it was first introduced.

I found one range off spec on the 1272a but the Keysight calibration/adjustment method allows you to adjust one range only unlike Fluke DMMs, you need to calibrate the whole meter to do just one range.  I also had a 1252a with the same issue, but a different range.  I presume these were calibration errors only as the values have held true ever since they were adjusted years ago. 

Always good to break in new instruments and do a performance test!



Finally, here's my story, up to now..
...
Anybody else might also check these faults on his own instrument, even though the first fault is only evident to 34465A/34470A owners, and who were capable of checking 100V and 1kV calibration very stably / precisely.

I expect an analysis from Keysight, and hope for confirmation and repair of the assumed faulty firmware.

I have to say, that the reception of this assumed fault by Keysight is very good (starting with kind assistance by Mike Kawasaki), and the support extremely alert, as I already got another new instrument, and they wish to analyse the "defect" instrument in their development in Malaysia.

Frank

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LabSpokane on August 10, 2015, 03:00:29 pm
Keysight surfs the EEVBlog and will likely ping Dr. Frank in short order today.  :)
Title: Bug in Keysight's 34465A and 34470A
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 12, 2015, 07:03:58 pm
Hi,
I recently reported errors with my new 34465A, which I discussed intensively with the Keysight DMM support engineer, Jim Durr.

In the meantime, Keysight exchanged my instrument for analysis. The new instrument showed similar irregularities.

Jim Durr already confirmed, that the +3ppm shift between impedance AUTO and High setting is a real defect in the firmware, affecting all TrueVolt DMMs.

About the 2nd assumed error, caused by the ACAL function, I finally had a phone conference today, with Scott Stever, previous PM of the 3458A, and now also involved in the 34465A/470A development.

He explained to me the characteristics of the ACAL function.
(It's clear that he could not go into details, how this is realized in hardware.)

This function is able to make small corrections to the gain constants of volt and ohm modes, obviously by re-measuring the ratio factors.

It works very well in the 10V range, here the process is "precise", as he told me.

For the the HV range, as there is this big 100:1 attenuation, the function has some limitations in the repeatability of the ACAL function.
One of the limitations is caused by the noise level.
Obviously this ratio is determined in the fab (or during calibration) at the 100V level, output 1V, whereas during ACAL, the output is in the 100mV range or smaller, causing higher noise and lower repeatability of ACAL.

So the repeatability for the HV ACAL function is about 5..10ppm only, which is well inside the 90d specification limits, and also safely included in the 24h specification.

Keysight generally estimates the operation of the ACAL function being at around 1/5 of the corresponding 90d specification.

I also made a partial recalibration of the 100V and the 1kV ranges only, which is not applicable, as the ACAL relies on the complete calibration procedure, in the correct order.

Therefore, this observed irregularity is not an error, but a sign of limitation of the ACAL function.

It also can not be compared at all with the "real" ACAL of the 3458A, which relies on the ultra linear A/D converter (0,02ppm INL), and also is capable of calibrating all modes and ranges. So, my expectations maybe were too high, especially being experienced with the 3458A.


Scott Stever assured me, that the 34465A / 470A perform much better than their predecessors, and that the ACAL feature greatly improves the T.C. in all ranges, so that in summary, the specification is superior over the older instruments.

Anyhow, ACAL is not needed on daily basis, but only when the room temperature changes by more than about 5°C.


What I have seen so far, after nearly 3 months, the instrument is still spot on in the 10V and lower ranges, and also the deviation in the 100V / 1kV range against the Test Report of about 8ppm is constant.. each parameter is still well below the 24h limits.
The ACAL will always bring the reading to 1ppm of the initial ones, so it's performing much better than Scott Stever explained to me. Same goes for the Ohm ranges, which are still at 1ppm accuracy.


In retrospective, the people at Keysight really have done a great job on my issue.
They really have taken care of my concerns, even when I insisted on explanations about the ACAL peculiarity.
They gave a great support, including a new instrument!

A new FW for the +3ppm failure will be released in the next days / weeks, it's currently undergoing their tests.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: saturation on October 21, 2015, 02:54:17 pm
Wow, very insightful and most helpful, Dr. Frank.  Thanks for all the work to bring this to light, a 65a or 70a is one of my next purchases so this was good to know.


Hi,
I recently reported errors with my new 34465A, which I discussed intensively with the Keysight DMM support engineer, Jim Durr.
...A new FW for the +3ppm failure will be released in the next days / weeks, it's currently undergoing their tests.

Frank

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Keyview on November 05, 2015, 10:38:50 pm
Hi,

the data logging for the 34465A is puzzeling me.
Keysight specifies 5000 readings/s.
The user manual talks about 1000 readings/s in data logging mode.
I read that data logging mode allows zooming into data.

I would understand that reading rate is reduced from 5k/s to 1k/s when saving the data to an external file (e.g. via USB).
But, following the manual, it is  reduced to 1k/s when saving to internal memory, too.
Is this really the case?

Thank you for your feedback.

Btw, one of the prime reasons for my interest in the 34465A has not been
mentioned in this thread, yet: The guaranteed accuracy of this device for VAC in the low end down to 1 mV
is only outperformed by the high-end Agilent Keysight 3458A and Fluke 8508A as far as I can see.
Even the 34461A is hard to beat in the range 1-5 mV AC.  :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on November 05, 2015, 11:36:30 pm
the data logging for the 34465A is puzzeling me.
Keysight specifies 5000 readings/s.
The user manual talks about 1000 readings/s in data logging mode.

Welcome to the forum.
The 34465A and the 34470A both offer 5,000 rdgs/s in standard mode and 50,000 rdgs/s with the fast digitizer option
The 34461A only does 1,000 rdgs/s and has no option for faster readings

The storage memory on the 34465A and the 34470A 50,000 rdgs in standard mode and 2,000,000 rdgs with the memory option
The 34461A only does 10,000 rdgs and has no options for more memory




Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Keyview on November 06, 2015, 03:52:55 pm
Welcome to the forum.
The 34465A and the 34470A both offer 5,000 rdgs/s in standard mode and 50,000 rdgs/s with the fast digitizer option

Thank you for the welcome and your feedback.
Yes, that is why I was wondering about the maximum of 1,000 rdgs/s in the "data log mode" for the 34465A and 70A.
(source: user manual, pages 82 and 182, www.keysight.com/main/redirector.jspx?action=ref&cname=EDITORIAL&ckey=2345839&ml=eng (http://www.keysight.com/main/redirector.jspx?action=ref&cname=EDITORIAL&ckey=2345839&ml=eng))
Does the 5,000 rdgs/s for the 34465A apply only to "storing data" (page 99, above PDF) which does
not allow zooming into data? (The "digitize mode" on the other hand has 50,000 rdgs/s.)
Have a nice day!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sparky on December 28, 2015, 08:53:21 am
And the fast DIG option also arrived and works really well.
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.
Any updates on the DIG option?
It seems the DIG option is only really useful if you get the memory upgrade as well, 50k readings a second fills up fast when you have a 50k readings memory limit.
I'm also looking forward to hearing more about the DIG option...hopefully HighVoltagewill get a chance to write about it soon...

I was looking forward to someone posting about the DIG option and illustrating what 50k readings/sec is like of in terms of high enough sample rate and resolution to capture micro- and milli-amp magnitude currents (in battery powered embedded circuits, which is my application).  That never happened and in the meantime I bought the DIG + MEM options myself.  I'm posting some results to show what can be achieved for anyone else who might be curious about this.

Test Setup
Keysight 34465A with the DIG and MEM options; valid calibration.  Current range set to 1A, and digitize option used to acquire readings at maximum 50k readings/sec for 40 seconds (total 2M readings).  The readings were saved to USB 2.0 drive as CSV file and later plot in MATLAB.

Device Under Test
Custom Texas Instruments CC3200 (MCU + WiFi) board.  Current measured at output of Li-Ion battery before input to LDO regulator. 

I attached 4 .png files which are MATLAB plots of Current [mA] vs Time [sec].  The images are of the same data set "zoomed" in on the x- and y-axis to highlight successively finer details. 

Image 01 10 sec duration showing system starting up; lots of current spikes while connecting to WiFi.
Image 02 1 sec duration of system in "idle" state.  Possible to identify 3 different periodic tasks: 1) MCU wakes at 4Hz (~20mA "blocks"); 2) WiFi applications processor responding to maintenance-type packets from wireless router at 2 Hz (~350mA "spikes"); and 3) A sensor running asynchronously from MCU at ~8Hz (~250mA "spikes").
Image 03 0.1 sec duration zoom-in to the MCU wake; can see various levels of activity as the system comes out of sleep and then returns to sleep.
Image 04 0.01 sec duration zoom-in showing an unknown periodic (~1.56kHz) current waveform.  I really wonder what part of TI CC3200 MCU is causing this, and why it's not staying at the lowest current draw!

Overall I have found the DIG and MEM options extremely useful in validating correct power management and sleep functions.  The ability to "zoom in" at many levels and see finer details is really remarkable.  I did not really expect this when using the 1A range.  It has enabled me to identify various sources of current draw and implement software changes leading to lower average current draw.  It is a bit of a challenge -- at each stage that you identify and then eliminate the biggest current draw you can see, you can then target the next one! (It's a tale of diminishing returns, but you get the idea!) 

Would still love to hear from HighVoltage and anyone else who has used the DMM for these kinds of applications --- it's very interesting seeing exactly how your system is operating in terms of the current waveform!

Have fun!
Sparky
Title: Re: Bug in Keysight's 34465A and 34470A
Post by: SharpEars on January 07, 2016, 04:54:36 pm

A new FW for the +3ppm failure will be released in the next days / weeks, it's currently undergoing their tests.

Frank

It is January 2016 now and it doesn't look like the firmware that fixes this has been released yet. Am I correct in my assessment that the 34465A units are still not functioning properly as you described using current firmware 2.09? I am holding off on my purchase until Keysight fixes this issue.
Title: Re: Bug in Keysight's 34465A and 34470A
Post by: Dr. Frank on January 07, 2016, 06:48:08 pm

A new FW for the +3ppm failure will be released in the next days / weeks, it's currently undergoing their tests.

Frank

It is January 2016 now and it doesn't look like the firmware that fixes this has been released yet. Am I correct in my assessment that the 34465A units are still not functioning properly as you described using current firmware 2.09? I am holding off on my purchase until Keysight fixes this issue.

I'm surprised also, that KS has not yet published 2.10 officially.

Maybe they want to solve other problems also, like the continuity function. Or maybe they discovered, that the 10ppm shift by ACAL really is not working correctly.

Anyhow, if you need this instrument, you may buy it despite these bugs.. it's still performing well inside all spec limits.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on January 08, 2016, 09:05:57 am
New version of firmware v2.11

http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-536902435.1058513&id=2367633 (http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-536902435.1058513&id=2367633)

Regards
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 08, 2016, 09:27:11 am
Fixes from the release note:

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: blackdog on January 08, 2016, 10:08:23 am
Hi,


Loaded the new firmware on two 34461A, continuity check is stil a mess, morons....

Kind regarts,
Blackdog
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: sotos on January 08, 2016, 11:20:04 am
Hi,


Loaded the new firmware on two 34461A, continuity check is stil a mess, morons....

Kind regarts,
Blackdog

There’s nothing in the new release notes mentioning the beeper problem fixed.

Maybe it’s difficult for them.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: blackdog on January 08, 2016, 11:25:25 am
Hi Sotos, :-)

I know there is no mention in the release notes about this, still i think morons!  :-DD

Kind regarts
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: sotos on January 08, 2016, 11:50:38 am
Hi Sotos, :-)

I know there is no mention in the release notes about this, still i think morons!  :-DD

Kind regarts


          :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KE5FX on January 08, 2016, 10:48:51 pm
Hi,
Loaded the new firmware on two 34461A, continuity check is stil a mess, morons....

Agreed, this is a bit disappointing. 

Come on, guys, this has got to be a pretty easy one to fix.  The continuity tone was better before. 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: sotos on January 08, 2016, 11:22:54 pm
About the continuity tone, I also posted the problem at their forum here.

http://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/forum.jspa?forumID=123 (http://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/forum.jspa?forumID=123)

Maybe they are made in China and we have to inform them in Chinese’s.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on January 08, 2016, 11:35:39 pm
I've posted in the Keysight thread - I hope others do the same.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: diyaudio on January 09, 2016, 10:39:18 am
I've posted in the Keysight thread - I hope others do the same.

This is very dishearten news. I have a 34465A 34461A  arriving next week, hopefully these firmware issues will be fixed soon... I still need to learn the functions on the instrument. 

 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 09, 2016, 10:48:40 am
The continuity beep problem seems to be limited to the 34461A
My 34470A does not show this issue at all.
I would suspect the 34465A also to be OK, may be someone can confirm this.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: diyaudio on January 09, 2016, 10:49:53 am
Sorry, I keep thinking 34465A, im getting a 34461A.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: sotos on January 09, 2016, 01:12:42 pm
With Firmware, AGILENT V 1.10 its working fine, so I don’t think it’s a hardware problem. It gets messed up with Keysight updates.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sparky on January 09, 2016, 07:39:34 pm
@HighVoltage

I believe you have the DIG option, if so, and you use BenchVue also can you test the maximum sample rate when using BenchVue "Digitize" mode?  The reason I ask is that when using firmware 2.09 on my 34465A I could set 50kHz (max) from within the BenchVue Digitize app, but now (using firmware 2.11) the maximum appears to be 25kHz!  It is still possible to set 50kHz from the front panel of the meter for "local" control, but when using BenchVue for remote control I get an error that "50kHz is greater than the maximum of 25kHz".  (I have both DIG and MEM options).

Could you --- or anyone else --- check and confirm?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 09, 2016, 10:59:22 pm
Hello Sparky
Yes, I can test this on my 34470A but I am gone from the lab for a couple days, will test this early next week.
I did update the FW to 2.11 already on my 34470A meter.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 12, 2016, 05:08:26 pm
@HighVoltage

I believe you have the DIG option, if so, and you use BenchVue also can you test the maximum sample rate when using BenchVue "Digitize" mode?  The reason I ask is that when using firmware 2.09 on my 34465A I could set 50kHz (max) from within the BenchVue Digitize app, but now (using firmware 2.11) the maximum appears to be 25kHz!  It is still possible to set 50kHz from the front panel of the meter for "local" control, but when using BenchVue for remote control I get an error that "50kHz is greater than the maximum of 25kHz".  (I have both DIG and MEM options).

Could you --- or anyone else --- check and confirm?
I just tested this and come to the same results that you have.
I also have the DIG and MEM option installed in my 34470A.
Since I have already updated the FW to v2.11, I no longer can say, if this worked in v2.09
Hopefully Keysight will fix this in the FW or in BenchVue.


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sparky on January 12, 2016, 05:43:00 pm
@HighVoltage

I believe you have the DIG option, if so, and you use BenchVue also can you test the maximum sample rate when using BenchVue "Digitize" mode?  The reason I ask is that when using firmware 2.09 on my 34465A I could set 50kHz (max) from within the BenchVue Digitize app, but now (using firmware 2.11) the maximum appears to be 25kHz!  It is still possible to set 50kHz from the front panel of the meter for "local" control, but when using BenchVue for remote control I get an error that "50kHz is greater than the maximum of 25kHz".  (I have both DIG and MEM options).

Could you --- or anyone else --- check and confirm?
I just tested this and come to the same results that you have.
I also have the DIG and MEM option installed in my 34470A.
Since I have already updated the FW to v2.11, I no longer can say, if this worked in v2.09
Hopefully Keysight will fix this in the FW or in BenchVue.

Thanks HighVoltage for following-up and confirming the findings -- we can say this is an issue for both 34465A and 34470A. 

I posted in the BenchVue thread about this issue and one of the Keysight folks confirmed the issue yesterday on 34470A; he said he will look into it.  Interestingly they said the 25kHz maximum was the case for both v2.09 and v2.11 on a 34470A.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on January 12, 2016, 05:45:11 pm
@HighVoltage
34465A I could set 50kHz (max) from within the BenchVue Digitize app, but now (using firmware 2.11) the maximum appears to be 25kHz!  It is still possible to set 50kHz from the front panel of the meter for "local" control, but when using BenchVue for remote control I get an error that "50kHz is greater than the maximum of 25kHz".  (I have both DIG and MEM options).

Could you --- or anyone else --- check and confirm?

I have a 465A, with DIG option, which is identical to the 470A in this instance.
I already upgraded to FW 2.10 (yep, I got this inofficial version), when I later also received the DMM PRO version of BenchVue.
This is the prerequisite for 50kHz digitizing over the bus. Also, I got no MEM option.

So I tested this 50kHz Digitizing with a few 100k of sample points.. over GPIB .. and had problems.
The sampling rate was set back to 25kHz in most cases, but that completely transferred all the data directly to BV, so that the internal 50k sample memory is no limitation.

By some odd tries with BV, depending on the pre-configuration on the 465A, which I can't recapitulate at that moment, I really managed to get 50kHz sampling rate directly to BenchVue.
But this was really stuttering.. display of BV freezing, and so on.
But it seemed to have transferred all data in the background.

Anyhow, I'm under the impression that the whole digitizing state machine of the 34465A/470A is too slow, and also that the bus transfer might be too slow.
Maybe BV itself has too much overhead to be optimal for fast digitizing.. although it's been promoted to do the job.

I have to point out, that I have some - successful - experience on the 3458A, digitizing 100kHz @ 16bit / 50kHz @ 18bit..
by using 2 Byte / 200kHz or 4 byte / 200kHz integer format transfers over GPIB.

Also, the former 34411A is optimized for such fast data-rates and - transfers, but this instrument provides a 4byte integer transfer, afaik, whereas the 465A / 470A only have an 8 byte real format.
As the 465A and 470A were promoted as successors to the 411A, I really wonder, if an improvement at that point is necessary, either an optimization of internal data crunching, but also formatting to 2Byte / 4 Byte integer.
A brief look into the different data transfer rate specifications of these instruments is also very instructive..

I already planned to write my own 50kHz digitizing program, w/o the overhead of BenchVue, to improve speed & buffer depth.
Got no time yet, but will report here, as soon as I'm successful.

Frank

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sparky on January 12, 2016, 07:08:43 pm
@HighVoltage
34465A I could set 50kHz (max) from within the BenchVue Digitize app, but now (using firmware 2.11) the maximum appears to be 25kHz!  It is still possible to set 50kHz from the front panel of the meter for "local" control, but when using BenchVue for remote control I get an error that "50kHz is greater than the maximum of 25kHz".  (I have both DIG and MEM options).

Could you --- or anyone else --- check and confirm?

I have a 465A, with DIG option, which is identical to the 470A in this instance.
I already upgraded to FW 2.10 (yep, I got this inofficial version), when I later also received the DMM PRO version of BenchVue.
This is the prerequisite for 50kHz digitizing over the bus. Also, I got no MEM option.

So I tested this 50kHz Digitizing with a few 100k of sample points.. over GPIB .. and had problems.
The sampling rate was set back to 25kHz in most cases, but that completely transferred all the data directly to BV, so that the internal 50k sample memory is no limitation.

By some odd tries with BV, depending on the pre-configuration on the 465A, which I can't recapitulate at that moment, I really managed to get 50kHz sampling rate directly to BenchVue.
But this was really stuttering.. display of BV freezing, and so on.
But it seemed to have transferred all data in the background.

Anyhow, I'm under the impression that the whole digitizing state machine of the 34465A/470A is too slow, and also that the bus transfer might be too slow.
Maybe BV itself has too much overhead to be optimal for fast digitizing.. although it's been promoted to do the job.

I have to point out, that I have some - successful - experience on the 3458A, digitizing 100kHz @ 16bit / 50kHz @ 18bit..
by using 2 Byte / 200kHz or 4 byte / 200kHz integer format transfers over GPIB.

Also, the former 34411A is optimized for such fast data-rates and - transfers, but this instrument provides a 4byte integer transfer, afaik, whereas the 465A / 470A only have an 8 byte real format.
As the 465A and 470A were promoted as successors to the 411A, I really wonder, if an improvement at that point is necessary, either an optimization of internal data crunching, but also formatting to 2Byte / 4 Byte integer.
A brief look into the different data transfer rate specifications of these instruments is also very instructive..

I already planned to write my own 50kHz digitizing program, w/o the overhead of BenchVue, to improve speed & buffer depth.
Got no time yet, but will report here, as soon as I'm successful.

Frank

Very interesting to read your experience, Dr. Frank

I really hope that 34465A with the DIG option (equivalently 34470A) will allow a continuous 50kHz data streaming to PC over USB or LAN.  If BenchVue could do it that would be great, otherwise a custom program with less overhead.  I will experiment with MATLAB sometime and see what I can achieve, and keep an eye out for your report :)


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: plesa on January 12, 2016, 10:08:22 pm
I have LabView program for 50k/s digitizing with 34411A, so let me know if it can help.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sparky on January 12, 2016, 10:19:23 pm
I have LabView program for 50k/s digitizing with 34411A, so let me know if it can help.

@plesa: It would be great to try it with 34465A/34470A, and see if allows 50kHz digitizing also.  That way we would have a better idea of possible limitations in BenchVue and not with the instrument. 

Does your test program require full LabView installation, or can it run "stand alone" as an application?  I'm happy to test it :)

Sparky
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: plesa on January 14, 2016, 09:50:44 pm
I build exe, so it is standalone app.
It creates live view, log data to HDD and create live histogram.
For fast readout do not forget uncheck autozero.
http://www.filedropper.com/agilentdmmloggingutility (http://www.filedropper.com/agilentdmmloggingutility)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sparky on January 15, 2016, 10:31:12 pm
I build exe, so it is standalone app.
It creates live view, log data to HDD and create live histogram.
For fast readout do not forget uncheck autozero.

@plesa: I tried your program but I get the error shown in attachment when I run it.  Do you know what it is?  Anything I can provide to help identify the problem?

(There was a second error about the directory C:\temp but that was easily resolved by creating the required directory).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: plesa on January 16, 2016, 10:13:29 am
I build exe, so it is standalone app.
It creates live view, log data to HDD and create live histogram.
For fast readout do not forget uncheck autozero.

@plesa: I tried your program but I get the error shown in attachment when I run it.  Do you know what it is?  Anything I can provide to help identify the problem?

(There was a second error about the directory C:\temp but that was easily resolved by creating the required directory).
Error should be fixed.
Try
http://www.filedropper.com/loggerwithhistogram (http://www.filedropper.com/loggerwithhistogram)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: ansgar96 on January 17, 2016, 05:47:09 pm
Hey,

I get this problem when my 34465A is connected to my home-network via LAN. Does anyone else have also problems like this or does someone know whats the problem? LAN settings are the default settings.

(http://IMAG0796.jpg)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 17, 2016, 05:51:56 pm
There used to be a problem with agilentlxiwebservice.exe in an older FW
You can find it in a release notes:

#4650  When mDNS is disabled with no LAN connection, AgilentLxiWebService.exe dies.

But I never had this problem.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: ansgar96 on January 17, 2016, 07:05:04 pm
Hey,

Forgot to mention, I have the new 2.11 Firmware installed :/

Best regards
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Sparky on January 17, 2016, 07:22:27 pm
Error should be fixed.
Try <snip>

I cannot download from the new link.  Apparently the download does work after getting through the capcha...  I didn't get a chance to re-test as moving my lab equipment...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on February 12, 2016, 08:26:50 am
Is this a know bug?

Minimum is 10.00000 yet the "Autoscale Once" function places the entire trend graph below 10...
The statistical average positively doesn't match the plot.

Plot is set to show all points.

34465A, firmware is 02.08 and I'm wondering if updating is known to fix this...

(http://www.rockgarden.net/download/trend_plot.png)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on February 12, 2016, 11:43:08 am
I can't replicate this on my 34461A running 2.11 but here is the changelog for 2.11 (#2 could be of interest)


34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A Revision 2.11 Enhancements and Fixes
1. Resolved an issue which caused capacitance measurements to intermittently fail with high offset voltages present.
2. Removed/resolved a 3 ppm reading shift that occurred in DCV measurements on the 100V and 1000V ranges when Input Z (impedance) is switched between 10M and Auto.
3. Resolved a Windows Application Error that occurred when LAN service VXI-11 was disabled and power is cycled.
4. Resolved a lock-up condition that occurred during frequency measurements using trigger settings TRIGger:DELay MIN and *TRG.

Firmware, release notes and tools:
http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=TH&nid=-536902435.1058513&id=2367633 (http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=TH&nid=-536902435.1058513&id=2367633)

Johan-Fredrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on February 12, 2016, 12:01:59 pm
This bug should have been fixed with 2.08 already:

34460A/34461A Revision 2.08 Enhancements and Fixes
..
4. Resolved a trend chart scaling defect in which readings would incorrectly appear outside of the vertical scale limits.


The 2.11 fix #2 is not related to the trend chart display, and only shows up in the 100V and 1kV DC ranges.
It's a real measurement fault, which can be displayed in the trend chart as a 3ppm step up/down, each time one toggles the Impedance switch.

Therefore I recommend to upgrade to 2.11, also to make sure, that any known scaling errors are removed.

Frank

PS: Another ~ 10ppm error in the 100V and 1kV DCV range has been found, due to erratic setting of the divider heater.
This has been confirmed by Keysight and is currently under investigation for FW correction.

I hope, that this is also the root cause for the ~ +10ppm ACAL error in these ranges.
 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on February 12, 2016, 03:50:06 pm

34465A, firmware is 02.08 and I'm wondering if updating is known to fix this...
I can also confirm, that this is not a problem anymore in the latest firmware.
This was really troubling me in my first 34461A and I am glad it was solved.
 
Edit:
Added picture of a trendchart from a 10V reference
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on February 13, 2016, 07:49:27 am
02.11 looks much better!  But maybe still not quite perfect...

(http://www.rockgarden.net/download/trend_plot_2.png)

The average is 10.000022 but assuming the Y axis labels are 10.00000, 10.00010, 10.00019 then the graph is too high.  It shows points at 10.000040 and higher, which is above the max value recorded.  This is the case even if the bottom tick is actually at 9.99999 - but then we have TWO errors instead of one...

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on February 13, 2016, 09:55:48 am
02.11 looks much better!  But maybe still not quite perfect...

(http://www.rockgarden.net/download/trend_plot_2.png)

The average is 10.000022 but assuming the Y axis labels are 10.00000, 10.00010, 10.00019 then the graph is too high.  It shows points at 10.000040 and higher, which is above the max value recorded.  This is the case even if the bottom tick is actually at 9.99999 - but then we have TWO errors instead of one...

Well, the problem is, that the graphs scale has 5 digits of resolution only.

So your assumption is very probably wrong. The scaling is 10.00000, 10.00005, 10.00010.
10.00019 as an upper limit would have been rounded to 10.0002, instead.

I recommend to manually scale the y-axis, so you will have better control of the limits.

Frank

Btw.: Received FW 2.12 today. Problem fixed, but not yet the ACAL issue.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit# and 34470A #7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on February 13, 2016, 11:22:36 am
If you open the Vertical Scale menu, then Low = 10.000 0 V, High = 10.000 1 V, that's a 100µV span only. See first two screenshots.
It's not possible to manually choose a higher resolution, because number entry is also limited to 6 digits, for 10V, that's 5 decimal places only.

So there's no error with your instrument, obviously.

At 9.999 98 V input voltage, you will get higher resolution, and might specify Center = 9.999 98V, Span = 10.0000µV

PS: Or even more resolution, i.e. 1 tick = 250nV (Center = 9.999 99V), recorded at NPLC 100.
You can even distinguish the A/D's resolution of 100nV (1E-8).
It's also a '465A.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on February 13, 2016, 06:12:37 pm
Btw.: Received FW 2.12 today. Problem fixed, but not yet the ACAL issue.

It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on February 13, 2016, 08:12:07 pm
The scaling is 10.00000, 10.00005, 10.00010.
Ah, yes, 10.00005 could have been rounded to 10.0001 and this in fact very likely the case.

It would be nice if they'd add another digit, which should fit easily.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: sotos on February 13, 2016, 11:03:55 pm
Btw.: Received FW 2.12 today. Problem fixed, but not yet the ACAL issue.

It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.

 :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on February 14, 2016, 11:11:08 am
Btw.: Received FW 2.12 today. Problem fixed, but not yet the ACAL issue.

It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.

 :-+

We do not appear in the web   :-//
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: sotos on February 14, 2016, 11:30:25 am
Btw.: Received FW 2.12 today. Problem fixed, but not yet the ACAL issue.

It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.


We do not appear in the web   :-//

Here we are.

http://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/thread.jspa?threadID=40301&tstart=0 (http://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/thread.jspa?threadID=40301&tstart=0)

And here

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/34461a-problem-after-updating-to-firmware-a_02_09-behavior-in-continuity-test/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/34461a-problem-after-updating-to-firmware-a_02_09-behavior-in-continuity-test/)



Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on February 14, 2016, 12:34:20 pm
Btw.: Received FW 2.12 today. Problem fixed, but not yet the ACAL issue.

It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.


We do not appear in the web   :-//

Here we are.

http://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/thread.jspa?threadID=40301&tstart=0 (http://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/thread.jspa?threadID=40301&tstart=0)

And here

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/34461a-problem-after-updating-to-firmware-a_02_09-behavior-in-continuity-test/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/34461a-problem-after-updating-to-firmware-a_02_09-behavior-in-continuity-test/)

I did not say well  |O , does not appear to download in Keysight web the new version of firmware (2.12)

Regards
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on February 17, 2016, 10:21:19 pm

It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.

Well, your wish is my command..

Jim Durr just confirmed, that they've already solved this known problem, and it will be on the next FW release.
Watch for the Keysight Technology Support site, he promised to post that information there, too.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on February 17, 2016, 10:33:24 pm

It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.

Well, your wish is my command..

Jim Durr just confirmed, that they've already solved this known problem, and it will be on the next FW release.
Watch for the Keysight Technology Support site, he promised to post that information there, too.

Frank

Dr Frank to the rescue, thank you sir.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on February 17, 2016, 10:39:11 pm

Dr Frank to the rescue, thank you sir.

Please, that's not my merit at all.. I just asked Jim Durr about this issue, and he told me that they already had solved it..

Anyhow, it will take some time for the official release, due to their strict Q.A. system, and PV process, i think
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: rosbuitre on February 17, 2016, 10:39:35 pm

It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.

Well, your wish is my command..

Jim Durr just confirmed, that they've already solved this known problem, and it will be on the next FW release.
Watch for the Keysight Technology Support site, he promised to post that information there, too.

Frank

 :-+ :-+ :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on February 17, 2016, 10:57:36 pm

Dr Frank to the rescue, thank you sir.

Please, that's not my merit at all.. I just asked Jim Durr about this issue, and he told me that they already had solved it..

Anyhow, it will take some time for the official release, due to their strict Q.A. system, and PV process, i think

I realize you're not there updating the source code but your post was the first time there has even been an acknowledgment that the problem exists. As of a few minutes ago Keysight has posted on the support forum about the fix as well but before that they never gave any hint that they cared.

btw, I think it is great that they have a strict QA process but it does make one wonder how they missed the problem to begin with.

Anyway, enough about this issue as it isn't even the proper thread for it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: sotos on February 17, 2016, 10:57:57 pm

It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.

Well, your wish is my command..

Jim Durr just confirmed, that they've already solved this known problem, and it will be on the next FW release.
Watch for the Keysight Technology Support site, he promised to post that information there, too.

Frank

Nice   :-+ :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: plesa on February 22, 2016, 09:03:25 pm
Free memory upgrade for FG and DMM
www.keysight.com/find/remember_bench (http://www.keysight.com/find/remember_bench)

Eligible Models:
     Performance DMM : 34465A, 34470A
     Function Generator : 33511B, 33512B, 33521B, 33522B, 33611A, 33612A, 33621A, 33622A
Purchase Period : 1st Jan 2016 until 30th Sept 2016
Registration Period : 1st Jan 2016 until 31st Oct 2016
Form below valid for US , Canada, Latin America.  Use the black/white globe in top right of this page to select your country.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on February 22, 2016, 11:17:59 pm
Bah, punishing early purchasers. Sorta  :(
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: SKPang on February 22, 2016, 11:35:16 pm
Thank you plesa, just registered my 34470A for the free upgrade.  :)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: sotos on February 23, 2016, 07:42:30 am
Why it’s not for everybody?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: plesa on February 23, 2016, 06:06:47 pm
Why it’s not for everybody?

I have no idea. Maybe someone from Keysight can explain it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Blue on March 05, 2016, 05:30:22 pm
Mem upgrade for my 34465a worked also for customers in The Netherlands.

The process is a bit flaky, you need to be logged in before you can enter the website they emailed you after registration. You will obtain a pdf with two codes and instructions to go to a website. Then you will receive the *.lic file to your email addresses you wrote on that site. Please write more that 1 email address - just to be sure you will receive it.

Use a fat32 usb stick to program your dmm. ntfs did not work for my dmm.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: nctnico on March 06, 2016, 01:35:26 am
Another thing they could fix is automatic filename increments for screendumps. I see some use for making screendumps from the various plots but having to input a filename and selecting the USB stick first is a tedious process.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on March 06, 2016, 10:47:43 am
Another thing they could fix is automatic filename increments for screendumps. I see some use for making screendumps from the various plots but having to input a filename and selecting the USB stick first is a tedious process.
Yes, I totally agree and I have sent this request to Keysight a while back.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on March 06, 2016, 12:21:32 pm
Have I just missed it, or is there actually NOT a simple way to grab a screen capture via Ethernet?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on March 06, 2016, 05:00:45 pm
Have I just missed it, or is there actually NOT a simple way to grab a screen capture via Ethernet?

You've missed it - the command is 'HCOP:SDUM:DATA?', which will return the file (either in png or bmp, depending on 'HCOP:SDUM:DATA:FORM').

Below is the python class that I use for ethernet (works in both 2.7 and 3.4) - the web option does the same as the java applet's monitor mode, where you can access the data remotely but without placing the meter into remote mode.
Code: [Select]
import socket

class instrument(object):
    def __init__(self, ip_addr, web=False):
        if web:
            port=5042
        else:
            port=5025
        self.socket=socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
        self.socket.connect((ip_addr, port))
        self.socket.setsockopt(socket.IPPROTO_TCP, socket.TCP_NODELAY, 1)
        self.socket.settimeout(10)

    def write(self, msg):
        self._write(msg+'\n')

    def _write(self, msg):
        self.socket.send(msg.encode('UTF-8'))

    def read(self):
        resp=''
        while True:
            resp+=self._read().decode('UTF-8')
            if len(resp)>0 and resp[-1]=='\n':
                return resp[:-1]

    def read_dlb(self, UTF_decode=True):
        # definite length block
        # starts with a '#', followed by a single digit representing the number of characters
        # used to represent the data size, which is followed by the data
        # get header
        header_size=self._read(2).decode('UTF-8')
        if header_size[0]!='#':
            raise ValueError('DLB missing header, data returned {0}'.format(header_size))
        header_size=int(header_size[1])
        # get size
        dlb_size=self._read(header_size)
        dlb_size=int(dlb_size.decode('UTF-8'))
        # get data
        data=self._read(dlb_size)
        while len(data)<dlb_size:
            data+=self._read(dlb_size-len(data))
        # clear new line
        self._read(1)
        if UTF_decode:
            data=data.decode('UTF-8')
        return data

    def _read(self, buf_size=4092):
        return self.socket.recv(buf_size)

    def ask(self, msg):
        self.write(msg)
        return self.read()

    def take_screenshot(self):
        """ Takes a screenshot from the instrument, using the current format.
            This returns the data for the caller to write to a file
        """
        # request the image
        self.write('HCOP:SDUM:DATA?')

        return self.read_dlb(False)

Title: Performance Review of Keysight's new 34465A and 34470A bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 07, 2016, 09:13:22 am
After about 1/2 year of investigation, I present my Performance Review on the 34465A / 344470A DMMs.
This comprises specification conformance checks, stability and noise figures, A/D linearity and resolution.
The differences between the hardware of the 34465A and '470A were examined.

I also discovered 3 bugs on the 100V/1kV DCV ranges, an unexpected behaviour of the OCOMP function of my 3458A, and how to handle these delicate offsets on the 100mV range.


Each instrument comes with a Test Report. These always appear to be similar, as the instruments are at first calibrated to a Fluke 5720A / 5725A, and then were verified directly afterwards. The acceptance level at the calibrator is a fraction of the 24h specification.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=43282.0;attach=206518;image)

10V is the most stable DCV range, usually on all bench DMMs. As expected, this range was spot-on for both 34465As on arrival, confirming about 1ppm DCV uncertainty in my lab.


The other ranges were always comprised of resistive amplifiers/dividers, so being more uncertain to a few additional ppm.
The 100mV range gain check requires a very accurate offset correction on both the DUT and the 3458A, as a 1µV thermal offset already gives 10ppm of error. At first, this did not work out well, due to the confusing OFFSET / STAT math function of the 3458A. In the end, I achieved an agreement of the gain constant of the 34465A within a few ppm, also.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=43282.0;attach=206520;image)

The DCV initial verification table shows the first error on the HV ranges, i.e. a reversible +3ppm shift when setting the input impedance flag to 10M. This software error has been corrected by FW 2.10 / 2.11.

'HighVoltage' kindly lent me his 34470A. This instrument had been running continuously for about 10 months already, so its internal LTZ1000 reference drifted +5 ppm, in accordance to the 8ppm/yr. specification, and the known negative drift of the LTZ1000A. Consequently, all DCV ranges exhibit this same +5ppm drift.


As a second bug, all three instruments feature an identical systematic deviation on the HV ranges of about +10ppm on the 100V range, and a little bit less on the 1kV range.

On the first 34465A, I tried a re-calibration on these 100V and 1kV ranges. Directly after calibration the reading was spot on, but after engaging the ACAL function, the reading immediately jumped back to these +10ppm.

As a consequence, these ranges cannot be calibrated properly, in conflict to the Test Report.
It has to be emphasized, that the instruments are still inside specification limits.


Recently, I found a third error on the self heating compensation of the HV 100:1 divider. Directly after power up, the heater of the 100:1 divider is not operated properly on the HV ranges. Depending on the power on state (Factory Default or Last), either the divider would not be heated at all, or be heated permanently in the 1kV range.
This malfunction vanishes by changing range or input impedance flag, or by triggering ACAL.

This malfunction leads to a -10ppm shift of the divider ratio, very probably being identical on all instruments. Therefore, this error can be assigned to the systematic +10ppm gain shift, as this may occur during HV calibration.
This error has been fixed by FW 2.12.

When I finally re-calibrated the 100V and 1kV of my 2nd 34465A, this +10ppm shift  did not show up any more, even after engaging ACAL, so that the HV ranges were now spot-on.

The ACAL function in the end works extremely well at lab temperature, bringing all DCV ranges back to their initial reading, about +/-1ppm for 10V, and +/-2..3ppm for the other ranges.


The uncertainty of the Ohm mode does not depend on the internal voltage reference, but relies on its internal resistors only, especially the 10k VHP101 and a TaN resistor array for the current mirror. See e.g. the schematics for the 34410/411A.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=43282.0;attach=206522;image)

All ranges were spot on, especially the 10k Ohm range on all 3 instruments deviated less than 1ppm from my own 10k reference resistors. The ACAL function also resets small temperature drifts to about +/- 1ppm deviation.

By comparing a 100k resistor on my first 34465A vs. my 3458A, I discovered an undisclosed failure mode for the OCOMP function.
This mode always requires delays of 1 sec or 5 sec for the 10k or 100k range respectively, to compensate for common relaxation effects on the DUT resistor. The normal delay settings in the msec range on most OCOMP instruments usually create errors on the order of several ten ppm.


The verification of different modes and ranges show that both instruments are still inside the 24h specification, despite the firmware bugs, and the timely drift on the 34470A!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=43282.0;attach=206524;image)  (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=43282.0;attach=206526;image)
Title: Noise and stability for Keysight's new 34465A and 34470A bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 07, 2016, 09:14:31 am
The 34470A 10h stability test suffered from an initial temperature change of about -4°C for the first 2 hours, as it was initially sitting on a warm 3458A. The decreasing temperature reveals a T.C. of about 1ppm/°C.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206529;image)

The 7h stability comparison indicates much higher stability for the 34470A and a lot of popcorn noise for the 34465A. The root cause lies in the different references, i.e. the LM399H in the 34465A versus the LTZ1000A in the 34470A.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206531;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206533;image)


These measurements were used for an Allan Deviation diagram, also in comparison to a 35h measurement of the 3458A.

Allan Deviation gives an idea about stability capabilities for different time scales, which also identifies different noise or instability sources.

All three instruments are on par for a single NPLC 100 measurement, giving about 0.03ppm stability.
The 3458A approaches 0.01ppm / 8 digits stability at more than 20sec averaging.
34470A and 34465A follow closely, reaching below 0.1 ppm/ 7 digits level. Their different voltage references cause the better stability of the 34470A, again.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206535;image)



The noise performance for 0V input, 10VDC range, mainly tests A/D noise. Both instruments behave identical, maybe a factor of 5 worse, than the 3458A.

For a 10V input, noise and stability of the internal references, plus the external 5442A are characterized. At NPLC 10 and NPLC 100, the superior LTZ1000A reference again makes the difference.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206537;image)


In summary, both mainboards of the 34465A/470A seem to behave identically.
Title: Linearity / Resolution on Keysight's new 34465A and 34470A bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 07, 2016, 09:15:43 am
The linearity specifications are 1ppm of range plus 0.5ppm (34470A) / 1ppm (34465A) of reading.
The passes with label (neg.) indicate that the linearity of the DUT had been tested with the 3458A being reversed, so that a possible non-linearity or asymmetry would be discriminated.. obviously there is none... the 3458A is linear to about 0.02ppm of F.S.

The linearity specifications are well met. There's obviously no quality difference, in fact the 34465As seem to perform better than this particular 34470A. This also indicates, that hardware / components are identical on both instruments.

Regarding this parameter, both instruments are worth 1ppm / 6 digits only.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206541;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206543;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206545;image)


In the TrueVolt DMM manual, the resolution of the 34470A is specified better than the 34465A.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206547;image)

Very obviously, the firmware limits the resolution of the 34465A on the main display to 6 digits and to 7 digits for the statistics display, whereas the 34470A displays 7 and 8 digits, respectively.

The raw data from the A/D is transferred over the bus, as full 8 digits were output for each model.

So I tried to determine the real resolution from binning the stability data.

For the 3458A, you see a typical, quite narrow Gaussian distribution for the 10V measurement.
At 10x magnification, an irregular binning appears, with 7 different values per 0.01ppm, which gives about 17.5nV median resolution, or 0.00175 ppm, nearly 9 digits.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206549;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206551;image)


The 34470A shows a very similar stability distribution as the 3458A, as explained already for the Allan Deviation.
Its binning equals 0.01ppm of resolution, or 8 digits, as specified.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206553;image)

The 34465A has a much broader distribution, reflecting its worse LM399H reference, concerning noise.
The binning shows exactly the same resolution of 0.01ppm, like the 34470A, therefore the Keysight specification is busted.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206555;image)


This finally proves, that both instruments share exactly the same hardware, and only their references and the display resolution by software make the difference.


As a conclusion, both instruments are very precise and stable, with many new versatile features as ACAL, OCOMP, graphic representation of readings, data logging and digitizing.

Both instruments perform much better than the specification, especially after application of the firmware updates.
Keysight engineers gave a very quick feedback and solution on these 3 bugs, so I'm very satisfied with my new 34465A.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: quarks on March 07, 2016, 11:00:54 am
Hello Frank,
very interesting read.
Thanks a lot for sharing.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: saturation on March 07, 2016, 04:20:14 pm
Thanks Dr Frank, for all the good data.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Vgkid on March 07, 2016, 04:43:49 pm
Thanks for the very informative post, Dr. Frank.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on March 08, 2016, 06:59:28 am
Any ETA on the 2.12 public release?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 08, 2016, 07:12:54 am
Any ETA on the 2.12 public release?

I received preliminary FW 2.12 on 13th of February. I estimate, that the SW validation will take another month.

Jim Durr told me later, that the continuity beeper problem will also be addressed, so there will be an official FW 2.13, containing both changes, I suppose.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Messtechniker on March 08, 2016, 07:16:29 am
In consideration of your excellent review Dr. Frank, I gave my
34465A a pat on its back. :)

Yours - Messtechniker
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Andreas on March 08, 2016, 07:26:08 am
Hello Frank,

for the excellent support of their quality department they should have given at least a brand new 34470A to you.
(or perhaps the still in development? 8.5 Digit 34480A)

With best regards

Andreas
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 08, 2016, 08:06:42 am
Hello Frank,

for the excellent support of their quality department they should have given at least a brand new 34470A to you.
(or perhaps the still in development? 8.5 Digit 34480A)

With best regards

Andreas

Hi Andreas,

a set of Keysight pencils and a Keysight drinking bottle also did the job, I suppose..

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on March 08, 2016, 08:23:13 am
Hi Frank,

Very nice data and testing, thanks for all the efforts! May you share few more details on linearity testing methods? You measured 5440 output with both meters and calculated difference between 3458A and 344xx readings? In return I'm interested of doing similar test with other meters, like K2001/K2002.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 08, 2016, 10:09:45 am
Hi Frank,

Very nice data and testing, thanks for all the efforts! May you share few more details on linearity testing methods? You measured 5440 output with both meters and calculated difference between 3458A and 344xx readings? In return I'm interested of doing similar test with other meters, like K2001/K2002.

You might also use the 5442A directly, as it's very linear already. I tested mine to about 0.2ppm INL, between 1V and 10V.
It's an old device, so the negative polarity deviates in offset, gain and linearity. Everything is inside the 0.5ppm linearity specification, but it could do better.

Therefore, for high accuracy, I measure 3458A and DUT in parallel, both polarities, 0.1V interval, from -10.5 to +10.5V, so avoiding range switching of the 5442A.

Then, I take 3458A as X, DUT as Y, and let excel calculate a best fit straight line.
The regression parameters give a correction for the 34465A data regarding offset and gain factor.

The difference between these corrected data Y' and Y is the INL data, and its maximum by definition is the INL specification.

See xls file, including linearity calculations for 5442A also.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on March 08, 2016, 10:28:27 am
Thanks, I'll try that with 3245A and my meters. Shipping a beast like 5442A overseas would be a quest, so will use what have first.

Making python script to do related measurement should be an easy task.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: plesa on March 08, 2016, 05:44:58 pm
WOW, thanks Dr. Frank for excellent post. I like it!
It is worthwhile to publish on some blog like http://gpete.blogs.keysight.com/ (http://gpete.blogs.keysight.com/)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: SKPang on March 18, 2016, 10:07:31 am
After 3 weeks they finally approved my free 2M memory upgrade.  :)
They email me the software entitlement certificate. I had to login and download the lic file, copy it over to an USB stick and install it on the meter.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HKJ on March 18, 2016, 04:50:45 pm
When the free memory upgrade was announced I did not read everything but applied immediately, later I read that it was not "old" meters.
But I got the license today, even though me meter was too old to qualify (now I just need a digitizer license).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: FFFF00 on March 18, 2016, 09:28:44 pm
Same here with the memory upgrade on an early 34465A. Very pleasant surprise this morning!
Title: Re: Linearity / Resolution on Keysight's new 34465A and 34470A bench multimeters
Post by: zlymex on March 24, 2016, 08:27:38 am
For the 3458A, you see a typical, quite narrow Gaussian distribution for the 10V measurement.
At 10x magnification, an irregular binning appears, with 7 different values per 0.01ppm, which gives about 17.5nV median resolution, or 0.00175 ppm, nearly 9 digits.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206549;image)

Frank
Was this measure at NPLC=100? Did you use auto zero?
Have you calculated the minimum standard deviation(or allan deviation) for a consecutive 100 readings?
Title: Re: Linearity / Resolution on Keysight's new 34465A and 34470A bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on March 24, 2016, 09:10:49 am
Was this measure at NPLC=100? Did you use auto zero?
Have you calculated the minimum standard deviation(or allan deviation) for a consecutive 100 readings?

Yes, it's the same measurement as in the Allan Deviation diagram, i.e. 35h vs. 5442A, NPLC100, AZ ON.
You may take the SD from that diagram, at about tau = 500sec.
Otherwise, I may look for the original xls sheet, so that you can analyse data on your own.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: smgvbest on March 27, 2016, 05:16:16 pm
Free memory upgrade for FG and DMM
www.keysight.com/find/remember_bench (http://www.keysight.com/find/remember_bench)

Eligible Models:
     Performance DMM : 34465A, 34470A
     Function Generator : 33511B, 33512B, 33521B, 33522B, 33611A, 33612A, 33621A, 33622A
Purchase Period : 1st Jan 2016 until 30th Sept 2016
Registration Period : 1st Jan 2016 until 31st Oct 2016
Form below valid for US , Canada, Latin America.  Use the black/white globe in top right of this page to select your country.

FYI
Link to request seems to be broken at the moment.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 4cx10000 on March 27, 2016, 06:00:42 pm
For me it is a fully working link  :)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: smgvbest on March 27, 2016, 06:03:11 pm
when I go to actually request the upgrade I get (from keysight)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 4cx10000 on March 27, 2016, 06:06:40 pm
Well, it works for me. Have never seen this before, wonder if Europe is included; I will have to check up on that...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dr.diesel on March 27, 2016, 06:08:46 pm
when I go to actually request the upgrade I get (from keysight)

I'm in the US and it works fine.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 4cx10000 on March 27, 2016, 06:12:57 pm
Sorry ... I misunderstood and as you stated, it does not work and not for me either! I did not klick the register link, my apologies for false info...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: smgvbest on March 27, 2016, 06:20:17 pm
whew,  thank you.
I didn't figure it was me because the error is from their site not a general network error.
I tried <gulp> IE even to see if it was browser related.   also from my iPhone.

I sent in a web feedback and sent them more information on what's happening  FWIW
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on March 27, 2016, 08:51:43 pm
Doesn't work for me either, and I'm in the U.S.

However, knowing this is Keysight, you probably need to make sure to use Internets Exploder 9 on Windows 7.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: smgvbest on March 27, 2016, 10:10:59 pm
Windows 7  Check
IE 9,   oops.   I'll never get my memory 

3/28/16 5pm,  still broken

Doesn't work for me either, and I'm in the U.S.

However, knowing this is Keysight, you probably need to make sure to use Internets Exploder 9 on Windows 7.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Blue on March 29, 2016, 05:35:16 pm
Yeah, I also had some problems (reported earlier), but rereading the email they send me and using that link solved it. I had to be logged in though before It worked.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: smgvbest on March 30, 2016, 08:31:29 pm
I was logged in before and it still didn't work but trying today it worked fine.
Happily registered now for the upgrade.  says to allow 30 days to process
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on April 05, 2016, 05:08:20 am
Has anyone heard anything regarding the new firmware? Keysight had suggested it would take 4 weeks or so for the testing but it has been closer to 6 or 7 without a release.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: sotos on April 05, 2016, 06:40:15 am
Has anyone heard anything regarding the new firmware? Keysight had suggested it would take 4 weeks or so for the testing but it has been closer to 6 or 7 without a release.

Maybe they found new problems trying to correct the old ones.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: ben_r_ on April 07, 2016, 04:18:12 pm
Welp, got my U3401A and 34450A up for sale to fund a 34465A. Think I have a buddy that is going to pick up the U3401A, now just gotta wait it out till a buyer picks up the 34450A. That 34465A is just too nice a meter to pass on. Its time to upgrade! I only wish it were Agilent branded to it would match all my other bench equipment.  >:(
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on April 07, 2016, 04:57:30 pm
Free memory upgrade for my 34465A arrived today :)

A nice surprise, given that mine was an early one that I bought last year shortly after they came out. I guess someone @ Keysight reckons it's a better idea to waive through the free upgrade rather than risk upsetting a customer. They're right, of course  ^-^
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: ben_r_ on April 07, 2016, 04:59:35 pm
Are there any other upgrades for the 34465A or is just the memory upgrade?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dadler on April 07, 2016, 09:01:41 pm
I received the upgrade for my 34465A and 33522B.

I bought the 34465A in May 2015, and the 33522B from the Keysight eBay store in Fall 2015.

The 33522B already already came with all licenses installed, but I do not have the license files.

I figured it wouldn't hurt to request the memory entitlement certificate anyways (just in case I accidentally clear the licenses, which you can do over SCPI  :o )
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on May 04, 2016, 08:35:58 pm
I'd like to forward the information, that FW 2.14 should be posted and available by tomorrow, May 5th. This includes fix of continuity tone on the 34460A/34461A, and accuracy issues following ACAL.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 6thimage on May 04, 2016, 10:24:09 pm
That's good news - I don't suppose you know why there has been a hold up with it?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on June 04, 2016, 03:19:52 am
After 3 weeks they finally approved my free 2M memory upgrade.  :)
They email me the software entitlement certificate. I had to login and download the lic file, copy it over to an USB stick and install it on the meter.
When did you buy your instrument?

I submitted my purchase of the 34465A in early 2015 (time to get it calibrated) but never heard anything back when I submitted it for the memory upgrade - it was worth checking at least.  I assume it didn't qualify.  Looking to buy the fast digitizer upgrade and it would be a lot more useful with the memory upgrade also, but I don't think I'd buy both.  (Ill just make do with the Keithley 2001 in that case, even though it's a bit more limited.)  Also asked for a quote for the digitizer upgrade (3446DIG) to see if they'll include the memory upgrade with it...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Faith on June 06, 2016, 12:55:52 pm
Hello everyone! Was about to pick up the 34465A (I had contacted Keysight in May for the pricing of the options) and just a week later (on the 1st of June) price increase >,<!

Seems that all Keysight products have increased in price (including licenses) by around 5-10% from 2016-06-01 onwards. Eep. Anyone else notice this? Wondering if this is an international thing.

Also, how many of you purchase your units with the five year warranty option? I know it's not that much, but considering how reliable HP/Agilent DMM's have been is it safe to just stick with the standard three year warranty?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on June 06, 2016, 02:50:14 pm
Hi Faith,

Sorry about the timing of the price change. We generally evaluate pricing twice per year, 5-10% is on the higher end of the price changes, usually they are closer to 2%. I can't & won't discuss specifics of pricing or specific deals, etc., however if you received a quote there should be a "valild until" date or something similar that locks in the price.

With regards to warranty, we have pretty high standards for hardware quality and performance, but with all electronics there's always a chance something breaks down. If you can afford the warranty, it's always recommended. 3 years is a pretty good length of time, though. I'd also be interested how many forum members get the extended warranties.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Faith on June 07, 2016, 02:15:20 am
Hello Daniel. Thank you so much for your reply! No problem on the increase, happens!

Just double checked, actual increase was around 5%. Certainly not the end of the world yet; but does add up when taking the options list into consideration.

Anyone any idea if the free memory upgrade will come from the factory with new units or will I still have to register it once my DMM arrives?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on June 07, 2016, 05:36:37 pm
Anyone any idea if the free memory upgrade will come from the factory with new units or will I still have to register it once my DMM arrives?

I honestly have no idea, I don't work directly with that team. However, if it was me I'd probably make you register! >:D
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Faith on June 09, 2016, 05:00:01 am
Hello Daniel. Yep, I just checked. They cannot do it at the factory, how annoying!

I've been thinking about the DIG option a fair bit. Since I do not have a scope in my mini lab at home (as I wish to maintain a bare minimum there in terms of equipment); how competent would the DIG option on the 34465A be as a very basic scope? At 50,000 Rdg/Sec I imagine it should be a good tool when designing my own basic power supplies to look at the stability of the output DC current and also to gain more insight into what's going on with IC's I work with.

Any opinions on this?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on June 09, 2016, 05:47:57 am
It's no big problem to install these options (DIG and MEM).

The DIG option is really a good tool, especially, as this lets you digitize DC current also (beneath DCV), to examine power supplies and current consumption.
So it suits well your application.

Of course, it won't replace a scope, due to the limited sampling rate.

As the MEM option is included for free, it makes additional sense, as w/o that, you very soon run into practical  limitations.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on June 09, 2016, 06:16:59 am
Also asked for a quote for the digitizer upgrade (3446DIG) to see if they'll include the memory upgrade with it...
Well, that didn't work at all - a reseller responded to this with a quote for a 34465A, not the option I actually asked for, or any answer to if they can include the memory upgrade with it.  :--
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Faith on June 09, 2016, 12:10:45 pm
Thank you for your reply Dr. Frank :D

Definitely it will not replace a scope but it should certainly give some very intuitive readings nonetheless.

I agree that without the MEM option I will reach its default limit super fast, that's why I was hoping that Keysight would do a DIG+MEM install at factory.

Replying to bson: I had the same concern (wanting DIG+MEM) and I asked my reseller to speak with Keysight and he did confirm with me that Keysight will not install MEM for you at the factory even if you buy DIG.

I hope that Keysight will not take too long to supply the MEM key then :p
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on June 09, 2016, 12:55:33 pm
I hope that Keysight will not take too long to supply the MEM key then :p
In Germany, you get the MEM key overnight from a Keysight distributor by email and the real paper certificate is mailed in an envelope.
So, you should have it really fast.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: jc101 on June 09, 2016, 06:51:20 pm
I got the Mem upgrade free with the promo, took a while to come through.  Recently I needed to add the Digi option in a hurry, so just ordered it from RS.  Turned up next day and was on the DMM about 15 mins after delivery.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kaz911 on June 15, 2016, 09:04:25 am
I just joined the club with a brand new 34465A via Microlease. Good price - no extra's included - but plan for the DIG in the future after getting (hopefully) my Mem upgrade. But Microlease are quite aggressive - I think I got about 15 call's before order was in place. But did not even get shipping notification *G* when it shipped so a bit of a surprise when it landed today.

The 34465 replaces/complements my old 8846A that is in for repair - but could not wait for it to be returned.

But it is straight out of the factory - calibration date was 28/05... Firmware installed is 2.14.

@Daniel - when you register for the Mem upgrade - why does it not register the instrument in "my assets" - there should be a check box saying "register in your assets" so I don't have to type serial number again :)

Now I'm going to try Bench Vue 3 as last time I tried it was bloody slow an inefficient (v1.6 I think it was - the EU version....)

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kaz911 on June 23, 2016, 11:20:52 am
My Mem upgrade took 4 and a bit working days to get processed. Now I just need to find a good offer on the DIG.. :)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Faith on August 09, 2016, 05:30:01 am
Finally got my 34465A a week ago but I have been a little busy so I registered for the MEM upgrade first before setting everything up, but that only took three days for Keysight to process, haha. Registration was quick and easy but of course once you get the certificate you still need to create an account to tie the license to your DMM.

As said I'm a little tight on space so I made this custom shelf to fit the DMM. Only 2mm of clearance on each side so it's a perfect fit without removing the handle.

I keep all of my probes plus my handheld DMM underneath, so it's easy to pull everything out at any time when I need to take measurements. Happy!

(http://i.imgur.com/WdLkEo7.jpg)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: PA4TIM on August 09, 2016, 07:04:23 am
That is a vert nice made cabinet.  :-+ (I have 2 right hands but not when it comes to woodworking and painting)

I really like your colored tools. Never seen that before, that makes it a lot easier to pick the right one if they are spread all over your bench.

I bought a new Keithley 2000 a few years ago, great meter for my job. I bought it back then pure on the specs.It fitted the most to my wishes that did not include the looks.
But if I had to buy it now it would be hard to choose the same way. I have not looked at the specs but that display is great. Often you need to look where your probes are and then take a short look at the meter and that display makes it much easier (and safer) to do.

I have an Agilent handmultimeter for 6 years or so, still very happy with it, but not with the probes, they have become sticky and are falling apart, also had to replace the common bus in the meter itself. But from a meterologic point of view it is great, it is stil spot on (and that is very important for me because I only repair test and calibration gear for a living)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: voltsandjolts on August 09, 2016, 08:24:05 am
As said I'm a little tight on space so I made this custom shelf to fit the DMM. Only 2mm of clearance on each side so it's a perfect fit without removing the handle.
(http://i.imgur.com/WdLkEo7.jpg)

Nice wood working skills.
I would recommend leaving the rear of the cabinet open to improve airflow.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Faith on August 13, 2016, 05:35:57 am
PA4TIM: Haha, I had a friend help me with this, otherwise on my own I would never get anything done because I am very OCD about my cabinet measurements.

What I like most about my coloured tools is that for components which I have to work on frequently I quickly start to remember which colours I need for when since it's easier for me to remember colours than size numbers.

The display on these DMM's are definitely fantastic. Especially when using the black background, it is very easy to pick up on measurement values extremely quickly, even with stats and et cetera enabled.

voltsandjolts: Yep, the back is completely open for where the DMM is. Only the top and bottom is closed so that my probes and tools don't fall off!

For everyone else: I have noticed a small problem with the Trend Chart (firmware A.02.14).

When I select a Time Window of 5 Minutes and then switch back to 1 Minute to acquire a more detailed view of recent events the values from 5 Minutes will disappear when I switch back to it. Really?

But if I select "All" instead of "Recent" then I can see a full view since the beginning of when I began taking measurements. But of course this doesn't help when I have several hours of measurements already (the view becomes too compact).

Is there any way to prevent the view of various Time Window ranges from disappearing when moving up and down between the ranges?

Thank you for any help anyone is able to provide!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on August 13, 2016, 07:57:57 am
For everyone else: I have noticed a small problem with the Trend Chart (firmware A.02.14).

When I select a Time Window of 5 Minutes and then switch back to 1 Minute to acquire a more detailed view of recent events the values from 5 Minutes will disappear when I switch back to it. Really?

But if I select "All" instead of "Recent" then I can see a full view since the beginning of when I began taking measurements. But of course this doesn't help when I have several hours of measurements already (the view becomes too compact).

Is there any way to prevent the view of various Time Window ranges from disappearing when moving up and down between the ranges?

Thank you for any help anyone is able to provide!

That behaviour is correct.
The Trend Chart is a different display mode only, besides Number and Bar Graph and Histogram.
It is not intended to do Data Logging. Therefore, data is cleared, when you change the window.
This mode alone also does not store data in memory, for later access.

If you want to log data, you need to chose Aquire => Datalog, instead of Continuos, and then you have  the feature of zooming into the stored data, as now Zoom and Pan show up in the Display - Trend menu.

Datalog usually stores your data into memory of the 34465A, or better, into a file,  so you can later access them, which is not possible, when you only use Continuous mode.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Messtechniker on August 13, 2016, 07:09:41 pm
Very nice cabinet. Its now on my to-do list.
One of these fine days.....

Yours Messtechniker
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HKJ on August 13, 2016, 07:19:27 pm
I am not that impressed, he is not thinking ahead. Next year he want some other instrument and there is no place to put it.
The instrument has to be on top, then you can stack them:

(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf3/DSC_6332.jpg)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Someone on August 14, 2016, 01:23:42 am
I am not that impressed, he is not thinking ahead. Next year he want some other instrument and there is no place to put it.
The instrument has to be on top, then you can stack them:

(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf3/DSC_6332.jpg)
Just take the bumpers and handles off.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HKJ on August 14, 2016, 06:10:14 am
Just take the bumpers and handles off.

Why, the stack is stable and I need to keep the bumpers and handles somewhere, the best place is on the instruments.
On some of the instruments the feets are part of the bumpers, if I removed the bumpers I would probably cover some ventilation holes.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: carl_lab on August 17, 2016, 08:36:21 pm
Today my Keysight 34470A arrived...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=142095;image)

Same "axis numbering" problem on my brandnew 34465A:

2.5 , 2.5000 , 2.5001  - WTF?  :palm:

Isn't there enough place for:
2.49995 , 2.50000 , 2.50005

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
  :-DD

I hope they will correct the issue by firmware update...


Are both of the 61As scaled in the same way? It looks like the top 61A hasn't been auto-scaled.
Top one was auto-scaled
It is confirmed by the upper, lower values on the scale to the left
Upper (max) value: 5.000 5 V
Lower (min) value: 5.000 4 V
On the old firmware there was no more resolution in between
Adding the extra digit added the extra resolution on the vertical axis.

The new FW v2.08 shows now on the left of the trend chart:
Upper (max) value: 5.000 48 V
Lower (min) value: 5.000 47 V

This is really great and something I did not expect from a firmware upgrade

It seems like we are now having the following resolution on the trend chart:

34461A, FW1.10 +/- 100 uV Resolution
34461A, FW2.08 +/- 10 uV Resolution
34470A, FW2.08 +/- 1 uV Resolution

What about the recent 34465A?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on August 18, 2016, 02:53:37 am
Today my Keysight 34470A arrived...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=142095;image)

Same "axis numbering" problem on my brandnew 34465A:

2.5 , 2.5000 , 2.5001  - WTF?  :palm:

Isn't there enough place for:
2.49995 , 2.50000 , 2.50005

It's actually...
2.500 10
2.500 05
2.500 00

But, yeah.  Agreed on the :palm: for rounding and truncating axis labels in the first place.  You're not the first to trip over this!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: carl_lab on August 19, 2016, 06:56:06 am
Today my Keysight 34470A arrived...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=142095;image)

Same "axis numbering" problem on my brandnew 34465A:

2.5 , 2.5000 , 2.5001  - WTF?  :palm:

Isn't there enough place for:
2.49995 , 2.50000 , 2.50005

It's actually...
2.500 10
2.500 05
2.500 00

But, yeah.  Agreed on the :palm: for rounding and truncating axis labels in the first place.  You're not the first to trip over this!
Yes, you're right. And it shows, keysight cannot even round correctly, they just truncated the values... |O
That's not what I expect, when I spend $1500 or more...

Is anybody here, who has a good contact to Keysight/Agilent/HP, who could ask for solving this bug?

BTW: How can I store a screenshot of the instrument's display?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Andreas on August 19, 2016, 07:06:35 am

Yes, you're right. And it shows, keysight cannot even round correctly, they just truncated the values... |O


Shure?

Most probably their math package uses "round to nearest even" to avoid propagation of rounding errors e.g. in statistics mode.

With best regards

Andreas
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on August 19, 2016, 08:19:11 am
Is anybody here, who has a good contact to Keysight/Agilent/HP, who could ask for solving this bug?

I think this one has made it in to the requested changes for future FW updates.
Also, I would wanted to have the StdDv shown in engineering notation or proper units and not so many zeros.
Like the 34410A / 34411A has it shown.
5.67 uV on the 43410A instead of 0.000,005 V
Hopefully we will see this in a future update as well.
[/quote]

Quote
BTW: How can I store a screenshot of the instrument's display?
You can save it to a screenshot or use Benchvue or over the LXI web interface.
It is pretty easy and works well.
 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: carl_lab on August 19, 2016, 09:55:38 am

Yes, you're right. And it shows, keysight cannot even round correctly, they just truncated the values... |O


Shure?
No, maybe "round to nearest even" is used, you are right, but...

Most probably their math package uses "round to nearest even" to avoid propagation of rounding errors e.g. in statistics mode.
...on axis numbering, same result as shown in screenshot (2.5 , 2.5000 , 2.5001 is nonsense).

...I would wanted to have the StdDv shown in engineering notation or proper units and not so many zeros.
Like the 34410A / 34411A has it shown.
5.67 uV on the 43410A instead of 0.000,005 V
Hopefully we will see this in a future update as well.
+1

Quote
BTW: How can I store a screenshot of the instrument's display?
You can save it to a screenshot or use Benchvue or over the LXI web interface.
It is pretty easy and works well.
OK. I tried to save to USB and got only raw data...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on August 19, 2016, 10:36:12 am

Same "axis numbering" problem on my brandnew 34465A:

2.5 , 2.5000 , 2.5001  - WTF?  :palm:

Isn't there enough place for:
2.49995 , 2.50000 , 2.50005

It's actually...
2.500 10
2.500 05
2.500 00

But, yeah.  Agreed on the :palm: for rounding and truncating axis labels in the first place.  You're not the first to trip over this!

At first, yes, there is not enough space to display all these digits. It's a 4.7" LCD only, and for an old man like me, some numbers are already too small to read, sometimes.

2nd, the rounding usually is done properly with the latest FW 2.14 (a similar issue has already been addressed in a recent version).

It is disturbing, anyhow, as this often gives identical numbers for 2 of the 3 labels.

3rd, in this case the limits are more probably 2.499 95 / 2.500 00 / 2.500 05, which would precisely be rounded to 2.5, 2.5 and 2.5001, as displayed.

Instead of guessing about that, you may use the "Vertical Scale" menu, select 'Manual', and then set Low and High parameters.

Here, the real limits are displayed to 6 to 7 decimal places, I think, and you also can then define the appropriate Y=window, which often is not set optimally, when using AutoZoom.
Afterwards, you might leave this menu again, to have full view of the measurement window.

I've seen a better solution for that space vs. resolution problem, I think, it was on the KEI 7510, i.e. the 'base value' is displayed to one or two decimal places somewhere on a major tick, and the major ticks divisor is displayed separately at the top.
In this case , that would be displayed as '2.5' and major ticks as '5.0E-5', minor ticks then would be 1E-5.

Such an engineering format would also be useful for the StD value, to overcome the same problem of small differences, also.
So I totally agree to HighVoltage, that KS should make another update for that.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Faith on August 19, 2016, 01:11:01 pm
I've seen a better solution for that space vs. resolution problem, I think, it was on the KEI 7510, i.e. the 'base value' is displayed to one or two decimal places somewhere on a major tick, and the major ticks divisor is displayed separately at the top.

Yep >,<"... The DMM7510 solves this problem quite elegantly as demonstrated here:

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WaJL7PUbmSk/VdSlENErEZI/AAAAAAAAZ9c/IESAIbt5ZYk/s1600/image5-747241.JPG)

Not my DMM! Could never afford this beast!~

But I also had a big face-palm moment when I first encountered this problem with my 34465A.

Also thank you for replying to my earlier message regarding the Trend Chart!~
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on August 19, 2016, 01:46:25 pm
BTW: How can I store a screenshot of the instrument's display?

It's explained in the RTFM, or in the HELP menu.
Press <Shift> DISPLAY, and then there should be an item inside the file management items, labelled as screen shot.
(Don't have my instrument at hand right now.

The display content, just before you press <shift> will be stored.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KE5FX on August 19, 2016, 09:19:48 pm

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WaJL7PUbmSk/VdSlENErEZI/AAAAAAAAZ9c/IESAIbt5ZYk/s1600/image5-747241.JPG)


I dunno.  That looks like ass, IMHO.  With a wide-aspect display like this, it certainly wouldn't have done any harm to spend a few horizontal pixels replicating the +5.04 at every graticule line.

Graph rendering isn't a ripe subject for "innovation" unless you're absolutely certain you're improving things.  If this labeling method didn't catch on in the 400 years since Descartes, what are the odds that it's the right thing to do now?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: carl_lab on August 19, 2016, 10:09:45 pm
BTW: How can I store a screenshot of the instrument's display?
Press <Shift> DISPLAY, and then there should be an item inside the file management items, labelled as screen shot.
Thank you!

At first, yes, there is not enough space to display all these digits.
2.499 95 / 2.500 00 / 2.500 05
OK...?
I had no problem to find space for the additional (one) digit, see attachment.
(The red marked distance is unchanged, but could be reduced, too.)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Faith on August 19, 2016, 11:44:10 pm
OK...?
I had no problem to find space for the additional (one) digit, see attachment.
(The red marked distance is unchanged, but could be reduced, too.)

I believe the reason for that extra space is to account for the worst-case-scenario for the following two extra characters: one for when you go down to the lower ranges (I believe the number will get suffixed with m/u), and another for the extra digit on the 34470A.

Yes I do also believe that this is all pretty ridiculous but that is how the UI was designed it seems; to have a fixed size and to account in advance for the most amount of characters which need to be displayed. Would prefer if this was implemented better.

As has been said already numerous times already; the screen isn't all that large. But all the more important that screen real-estate is utilised in a more efficient manner, no? So I really have no idea why the graph doesn't just scale horizontally to cater to what's required.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: KE5FX on August 20, 2016, 01:25:47 am
I dunno.  That looks like ass, IMHO.  With a wide-aspect display like this, it certainly wouldn't have done any harm to spend a few horizontal pixels replicating the +5.04 at every graticule line.

Graph rendering isn't a ripe subject for "innovation" unless you're absolutely certain you're improving things.  If this labeling method didn't catch on in the 400 years since Descartes, what are the odds that it's the right thing to do now?

Also, what's going on in the last few lines, where the scale goes from .184 ... .096 ... .008 ... .920?  Am I supposed to mentally apply the "+5.04" prefix to all of these?  That's a worse bug than anything in the Keysight screenshots.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Faith on August 20, 2016, 03:39:59 am
Also, what's going on in the last few lines, where the scale goes from .184 ... .096 ... .008 ... .920?  Am I supposed to mentally apply the "+5.04" prefix to all of these?  That's a worse bug than anything in the Keysight screenshots.

Oww >,<"... did not see that. That's bad. Sigh.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on August 20, 2016, 07:40:31 am
Well,
Now, that I'm sitting in front of my 34465A, I have to admit, that my advice, setting the Vertical Scale manually, does not fully work.
The resolution is the very same, as the automatic graph scaling, for 2.500 00V, it's also 10µV only:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=249236;image)

But anyhow, manual scaling will set Low and High to even values, and setting Center / Span instead, gives a better control over the window in most cases.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=249238;image)

For such small differences, I found a better approach. By using the Math Scale function, you might either substract the average value (B = 2.500 000V), with a resolution of 1µV, and the window is now controllable in Center and Span to fractions of µV. Note also, that the instrument displays down to the resolution of the A/D, about 8 digits, or 100nV.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=249240;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=249242;image)

By scaling with M = 0.400 000 and B =1, you will get a tidy readout in ppm, for the deviation from 2.500 000V.
That's really cool, viewing NPLC 10 vs. NPLC 100 in 0.1ppm resolution.
Note, how stable the 34465A performs.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=249244;image)

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on August 20, 2016, 08:33:11 am
Another extreme zoom, 10V from Fluke 5442A, displayed in +/- 0.1ppm window, 0.01ppm resolution.

Regarding short term stability, the 34465A performs like a 7 1/2 DMM, isn't it?  :-DMM

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=249256;image)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dr.diesel on August 20, 2016, 02:30:50 pm
I realize this isn't a Keithley thread, but if anyone would like to see similar screenshots from the k7510 for comparison I'd be happy to post them.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on August 20, 2016, 03:41:36 pm
I realize this isn't a Keithley thread, but if anyone would like to see similar screenshots from the k7510 for comparison I'd be happy to post them.
That would be great.. I would appreciate seeing examples from your instrument, here.
The 7510 can do scripts, which may overcome some of the formatting problems, probably.

For sure, it can do something like this, expressing the whole statistics in ppm.. gives much bigger resolution for the StD value..

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=249302;image)


That's 10V from the 5442A, reading is 1.9ppm high, but about 0.097ppm StD, which really is worth 7 1/2 digits.. 34470A and 34465A are identical in hardware, aside from the reference.
I've simply chosen M = 100,000, B = 1,000,000, and ppm as unit.

Frank

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on August 20, 2016, 11:40:11 pm
For such small differences, I found a better approach. By using the Math Scale function, you might either substract the average value (B = 2.500 000V), with a resolution of 1µV, and the window is now controllable in Center and Span to fractions of µV. Note also, that the instrument displays down to the resolution of the A/D, about 8 digits, or 100nV.
Ooh, that's nice.  Why didn't I think of this! :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dr.diesel on August 21, 2016, 02:51:08 pm
For sure, it can do something like this, expressing the whole statistics in ppm.. gives much bigger resolution for the StD value..

mx+b is a built in math function, but outside of the program area/scripts, I can't change the unit.   :'(



Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Keysight DanielBogdanoff on August 23, 2016, 05:01:08 pm

Is anybody here, who has a good contact to Keysight/Agilent/HP, who could ask for solving this bug?


Howdy. I'll pass this thread along, although I'm pretty sure this team monitors the forum.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: carl_lab on August 26, 2016, 11:38:48 am
Thanks, Daniel!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 06, 2016, 01:59:25 pm
Received the 34465A today. After ACAL it agrees within 1ppm with our HP3458A Opt002 meter (calibrated in January) on my self-made 10K reference and on 7.16V from LTZ1000 . Quite impressive for both meters to agree that nicely.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 06, 2016, 04:25:02 pm
Congratulations on your 34465A and nice comparison to the 3458A.
What 10 k Resistor did you base this on, to be so perfect on the mark?



 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 06, 2016, 05:40:11 pm
Congratulations on your 34465A and nice comparison to the 3458A.
What 10 k Resistor did you base this on, to be so perfect on the mark?

Thank you!

This one. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/best-way-for-decade-resistor/msg1027780/#msg1027780) .

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on October 07, 2016, 12:36:17 am
As a note, it's very easy to grab screenshots onto a USB stick.  No need to point a phone at it. :)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 07, 2016, 08:22:12 am
I left both meters (34465A and 3458A) to run overnight measuring the LTZ1000 reference voltage. The Keysight meter did drift about -3ppm, while LTZ1000+HP3458A combination did show a drift of less than 0.7ppm. However ACAL on Keysight did get it back at <1ppm difference from the HP. It looks like a regular ACAL is a necessity here unless the drift would stabilize after a while. By the way, when I've powered the 34465A for the first time and let it run for an hour, it was about +35ppm off at 10K before I've done ACAL. Here are two graphs from the overnight logs (same scale, 1ppm/div). The Keysight has about 4-5 times larger p-p noise.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 07, 2016, 11:57:21 am
Received the 34465A today. After ACAL it agrees within 1ppm with our HP3458A Opt002 meter (calibrated in January) on my self-made 10K reference and on 7.16V from LTZ1000 . Quite impressive for both meters to agree that nicely.

Cheers

Alex

Hello Alex,
congrats on your new 34465A.
Your 10V / 10k check is to be expected, and proves that it arrived in undisturbed condition.

Check the Test Report of your instrument.. it has been adjusted and verified to < 1ppm uncertainty in DCV and Ohm modes.
As you probably received it within about 3 weeks, and it had not been powered on in between, practically no drift occurred.
So you might take these readings as an additional calibration verification of your 3458A, about +/- 1ppm after ACAL.´

The difference in noise levels of the 34465A vs. the 3458A arise directly from the LM399H vs. their internal  LTZ1000A references.

Your 0.7ppm drift of the 3458A vs. the external LTZ1000 is quite high, maybe your room temperature changes too much; <= 0.2°C change is required.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 07, 2016, 12:11:56 pm
Received the 34465A today. After ACAL it agrees within 1ppm with our HP3458A Opt002 meter (calibrated in January) on my self-made 10K reference and on 7.16V from LTZ1000 . Quite impressive for both meters to agree that nicely.

Cheers

Alex

Hello Alex,
congrats on your new 34465A.
Your 10V / 10k check is to be expected, and proves that it arrived in undisturbed condition.

Check the Test Report of your instrument.. it has been adjusted and verified to < 1ppm uncertainty in DCV and Ohm modes.
As you probably received it within about 3 weeks, and it had not been powered on in between, practically no drift occurred.
So you might take these readings as an additional calibration verification of your 3458A, about +/- 1ppm after ACAL.´

The difference in noise levels of the 34465A vs. the 3458A arise directly from the LM399H vs. their internal  LTZ1000A references.

Your 0.7ppm drift of the 3458A vs. the external LTZ1000 is quite high, maybe your room temperature changes too much; <= 0.2°C change is required.

Frank

Hi Frank,

Thank you!

1) The calibration date on the 34465A is 30th of June, so over 90 days ago :( .

2) Yes, according to the calibration data the unit was calibrated to less than 1ppm error on 10V DC and 10K.

3) Yes, the lab is not temperature controlled, with at least 3-4C temperature variation overnight. Also my LTZ1000 reference is on an open board with only a foam cup. I will move it into a proper case soon  ::) . It is probably sufficient for my current needs though.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 08, 2016, 08:01:57 am
..

1) The calibration date on the 34465A is 30th of June, so over 90 days ago :( .

..
Cheers

Alex

The DCV drift is dependent on the instruments uptime. If it's not used so often, it may as well have its initial uncertainty.
Mine is from about June 2015, I think, and it's still within about 1ppm.

HighVoltage's 34470A, which is running 24/365, showed a drift of +5ppm only, after about 10 months.
This is also typical for the LTZ1000A reference, at 95°C.

The Ohm ranges, as their components are running on RT, won't drift as much, and the 34470A was also found to be within 1ppm for 10kOhm.

So your observation is an indicator, that your instrument is still in very good condition; 3 months of operation is nothing.

Ah yes, you should try to get the 2MB option for free.. I also got it this year, despite mine was an elder one.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 08, 2016, 09:33:09 am
Hi Frank,

The DCV drift is dependent on the instruments uptime. If it's not used so often, it may as well have its initial uncertainty.
Mine is from about June 2015, I think, and it's still within about 1ppm.

HighVoltage's 34470A, which is running 24/365, showed a drift of +5ppm only, after about 10 months.
This is also typical for the LTZ1000A reference, at 95°C.

Thank you - I thought that the 34465A has LM399? In my case this unit will be running 24/7, same as the HP3458A. At home I have two K2015 which are also running 24/7 for last four years (and were used for many years before I bought them). LM399s in both Keithley meter are very stable, drifting not more than a couple of ppm per year (if that - I will have a chance to check soon).

The Ohm ranges, as their components are running on RT, won't drift as much, and the 34470A was also found to be within 1ppm for 10kOhm.

So your observation is an indicator, that your instrument is still in very good condition; 3 months of operation is nothing.

3 month of sitting on a shelf at Farnell in this case!

Ah yes, you should try to get the 2MB option for free.. I also got it this year, despite mine was an elder one.

Frank

Yes, I've ordered the extended memory option as soon as I've received the meter!

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on October 08, 2016, 09:41:59 am
34470A has LTZ1000, 34465A - LM399 :).

I'd leave meter running for at least a week, better two and then repeat this test just to make sure. Same procedure apply for 3458A as well, long cold instruments "lose" their stability and need to run awhile to get back to normal stability. Few cases over EEVBlog nuts already confirmed this.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 08, 2016, 01:08:31 pm
...

 Same procedure apply for 3458A as well, long cold instruments "lose" their stability and need to run awhile to get back to normal stability. Few cases over EEVBlog nuts already confirmed this.

Does your statement refer to the regular LTZ1000A references,@95°C oven temperature?
AN-18 might apply generally to these references.

Mine is pimped to about 65°C, as you know, and it does not really show hysteresis, maybe about < 0.2ppm, even after a longer period of idle state.

The other two LTZ1000 @45°C, as already stated, should show no hysteresis at all, as they are 25°C above RT, only.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on October 08, 2016, 01:15:33 pm
Quote
Does your statement refer to the regular LTZ1000A references,@95°C oven temperature?
Hm, you definately right. I referenced to SN18 for standard A9, and did not tested on pimped ones. My box runs 24/7 since repair done.

I might have chance to test this theory in neareast future though  :=\  :o
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 10, 2016, 08:31:09 am
Well, the 34465A did drift about 3.5ppm down again over the weekend and returned to <1ppm difference with the HP3458A after ACAL. Here are the graphs. It also looks like a large part of this change is a temperature related drift. I am logging the voltage again just to see if the measured value would go up now when the lab temperature is increasing.

Cheers

Alex

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 10, 2016, 08:54:35 am
I am logging the voltage again just to see if the measured value would go up now when the lab temperature is increasing.
Cheers
Alex
Nice data on your 34465A and comparison to the 3458A.
Can you also log the temperature during this next test?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 10, 2016, 09:07:55 am
Can you also log the temperature during this next test?

Unfortunately, no. I will check the temperature occasionally though.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 10, 2016, 12:05:08 pm
OK, the tempco of the 34465A appears to be below 1ppm/C, as the temperature rise from 24C to 25.5C only increased the readings by 1ppm or so, not corrected by ACAL and with the rise of only 0.2ppm measured by HP3458A. Not conclusive  ::) . I'll compare the meters again in a while, running 24x7 for now.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 11, 2016, 10:38:21 am
It looks like the 34465A is stabilizing. Here is the data from an overnight run. The lab temperature varied by about 3C. ACAL after this run resulted in about +1ppm change on the 34465A and no change on the HP3458A. For that run I've synchronized the meters, by triggering the HP3458A from the 34465A, measuring every 10 seconds at NPLC100 . The vertical scale is the same as before, 1ppm/div

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on October 11, 2016, 10:46:58 am
You can poke 3458A with TEMP? command and it will return temperature of it's A1 PCBA for you.
Don't do it each sample though, as it uses relay to switch DCV to internal TEMP signal and then switches back. I usually log TEMP? reading each 50th sample on my runs.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 11, 2016, 10:51:20 am
All three devices are good for stability on the order of +/- 0.2ppm/ 24h.
So you might zoom your measurement to that resolution.
The 3458A should at least show no continuous drift in one direction (on that order), to prove that its resistor array inside U180 is fine.
The temperature change is a problem, so that also should be measured in parallel, you can use TEMP? for the 3458A as well.
(TEMP? tracks RT)

Anyhow, nice measurements under difficult environmental conditions.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 11, 2016, 11:14:02 am
Thank you. One interesting observation - a repeated ACAL on the 34465A returns a somewhat different measured values for LTZ1000, with around 1-1.5ppm variations (easily visible on the averaged 7.5 digit value). My suspicion is that variation is due to the LM399 noise, which is about 1ppm p-p.

Cheers

Alex

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 11, 2016, 11:26:21 am
Thank you. One interesting observation - a repeated ACAL on the 34465A returns a somewhat different measured values for LTZ1000, with around 1-1.5ppm variations (easily visible on the averaged 7.5 digit value). My suspicion is that variation is due to the LM399 noise, which is about 1ppm p-p.

Cheers

Alex

That may be the root cause.
I also see some variations between consecutive ACALs.

The ACAL mechanism of the 34465A/470A is not as precise as the one of the 3458A, as Scott Stever last year explained, in a discussion about that feature (it also cannot do a full re-calibration, of course).
He estimated the accuracy to be about 5..10ppm only.

So it might as well arise from the basic ACAL-principle.

After correction of the FW, as of vers. 2.14, the mechanism improved, and I estimate / observe the precision to about +/- 1ppm for 10V and 1V, and about +/- 2ppm for 100V, 1kV and 100mV.

I did not investigate on how it behaves under bigger environmental temperature excursions.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 11, 2016, 11:34:43 am
The ACAL mechanism of the 34465A/470A is not as precise as the one of the 3458A, as Scott Stever last year explained, in a discussion about that feature (it also cannot do a full re-calibration, of course).

So it might as well arise from the basic ACAL-principle.

The ACAL on 34465A is also very quick, which means it is based on a spot reference value and not on an averaged one. I would probably be happier with a somewhat slower but more consitent ACAL. It is still accurate to 1-2ppm though, which for that meter class (and price) is very good.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 11, 2016, 11:45:56 am
The ACAL mechanism of the 34465A/470A is not as precise as the one of the 3458A, as Scott Stever last year explained, in a discussion about that feature (it also cannot do a full re-calibration, of course).

So it might as well arise from the basic ACAL-principle.

The ACAL on 34465A is also very quick, which means it is based on a spot reference value and not on an averaged one. I would probably be happier with a somewhat slower but more consitent ACAL. It is still accurate to 1-2ppm though, which for that meter class (and price) is very good.

Cheers

Alex

Well, we currently are digging 10 times below the specification limits.. and it's intended to compensate for temperature driven drifts on the order of tens of ppm. It cannot and should not be compared with the 3458As ACAL performance.
That's what Scott Stever also wanted to stress.

Even the 34470A, promoted as 7,5 digits class (!!)DMM, does not benefit accordingly, though it has the less noisy reference inside.
But it works better than suggested by Keysight.. I did not figure out how they realized it, and they didn't want to explain in detail.

Comparing with the possibilities of the other ACAL methods (superlinear A/D and D/A converters, Hamon type, precision transformer), I suggest, that the ACAL in the 465/470A can't be as precise , for physical reasons, even at longer integration times.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 21, 2016, 11:27:03 am
My first (sort of) disappointment with the 34465A . On resistance (both 2-wire and 4-wire) it is noisy. If you do ACAL, the next few readings usually come with a decent accuracy, however when I've tried to see how stable a 10K resistor is with temperature (as our HP3458A is currently with Keysight UK for calibration), the noise-like variations on the meter readings were so large that any resistor changes with about 3-4 degrees C room temperature variations are completely invisible. Here is a graph with a 2 hour run using my LTC450C 10K "standard" (measured by HP3458 about a week ago and by Keysight 34465A today) . Overnight variations were even larger - about 25ppm p-p. Is this a typical behaviour for the 34465A ?

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on October 21, 2016, 11:47:10 am
Since measurement in comparison were taken different time, perhaps in case of 34465 some EMI/RFI coupling to resistor?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 21, 2016, 11:50:30 am
The noise seems to be high.
What I have noticed with my 34470A on resistance measurements is noise injected from nearby WiFi, or wireless phones, so I make sure to take these kind of measurements far away from any known noise and test the place, before I start.
 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 21, 2016, 12:18:36 pm
As far as I can tell, it is not EMI/RFI, the variations were present even overnight, with doors closed and nobody/ nothing in the lab to interfere. As a side note - if I do an ACAL during one of the far out variations (as you may see on the graph some large shifts are long lived), than the value returns to accurate, with ACAL correcting up to 10 ppm. Below the overnight (18 hours) run using a different 10K W/W resistor (UPW25). When I've looked at it this morning it was not a pleasant sight, so I've re-run the measurements using the LT450C - with the same result  :( .

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: saturnin on October 21, 2016, 05:46:06 pm
@Alex

I am just repairing one of my DMMs (an ohms stability issue). As part of tests I have made, I measured short-term stability of my 10K standard (two Fluke 19.995K 0.03% resistors in parallel). The measurement was performed by healthy K2000. Its 24hour spec is 26 ppm (34465A has 25 ppm). Therefore, I would expect 34465A should perform very similar to my K2000 in 2h interval. I have PC, WiFi, and smartphone within 1.5m from my DMM and yet the measured variation of 10K resistance is no more than 2ppm (max. temp change was 0.4°C)...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 21, 2016, 06:02:01 pm
It looks like our 34465A is failing the noise spec on 10K. I'll talk to Keysight on Monday. It would be nice if somebody with the 34465A would repeat this resistance test (10K, 100NPLC, 10 sec logging interval).

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 21, 2016, 06:35:49 pm
I can do this test on my 34470A tomorrow
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 22, 2016, 11:47:17 am
Here you go ....

I did a 10k 4W Ohms measurement for about 1 hour each with my 34470A in 100 NPL

10k-Resitor_Environment-Noisy.png
This was done with some WiFi, Cell Phone and DECT phone in the area around the setup.

10k-Resitor_Environment-clean-1.png
For this test, the instrument was about 10 m away from any high frequency noise

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 22, 2016, 11:57:21 am
Thank you! It looks almost 10 times better than my measurements, isn't it? Will give a call to Keysight on Monday  :( . From my measurements it is also well out of the noise spec, if I'm reading it correctly... .

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dr.diesel on October 22, 2016, 01:00:43 pm
I didn't read all of the documentation, but does the 34470A average at some point > 10 NPLC?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 22, 2016, 01:20:59 pm
I didn't read all of the documentation, but does the 34470A average at some point > 10 NPLC?
I was not aware of this and I am not sure if this is the case.

Here are two more graphs of the same setup with the 34470A in the same noise free environment for 2.5 hours at pretty much 24.5 degrees C the full time.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Nuno_pt on October 22, 2016, 01:31:14 pm
@HighVoltage 'n all what is the best way of connecting multiple GPIB to the same USB or RS232?
I've seen some images of male/female cable connected one on the other and then connected to a box, then the box to the PC.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 22, 2016, 02:08:02 pm
@HighVoltage 'n all what is the best way of connecting multiple GPIB to the same USB or RS232?
I've seen some images of male/female cable connected one on the other and then connected to a box, then the box to the PC.

I am using a Prologix GPIB to USB adapter and the free RF-Scientific logger software.
You need to have a few of the GPIB to GPIB connecting cables as well. I have lots of them.

Prologix:
http://prologix.biz/?sef_rewrite=1&gclid=CMTS_ePK7s8CFcGfGwodELwHCQ (http://prologix.biz/?sef_rewrite=1&gclid=CMTS_ePK7s8CFcGfGwodELwHCQ)


RF-Scientific
http://rfscientific.eu/rf-scientific-gpib-logger-v10 (http://rfscientific.eu/rf-scientific-gpib-logger-v10)


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Nuno_pt on October 22, 2016, 02:18:00 pm
@HighVoltage, thanks.

The cables must be like the HP10833 since it can stack 2 or 3 on top of each.
I was also looking at GPIB-LAN or GPIB-Ethernet.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 22, 2016, 02:20:57 pm
Back to the 10k measurements

Just for kicks, I did the same test on my Keithley DMM7510
Here are the results with a 10 NPLC setting.

Disregard the last spike in the graph, that was caused by touching the cables.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dr.diesel on October 22, 2016, 02:35:53 pm
That spike kills the stats, but looks good!

(Never thought I'd appreciate built-in graphing so much) 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 22, 2016, 03:35:46 pm
Here are my measurements, 34465A, 4W OCOMP, NPLC100, no ACAL, warm up curve, from cold start, 14h.
It's done on VHP202Z, 10k reference resistor, with proper cables.

After 1/2h, instrument is mostly warmed up, then between 1h...14h there's a drift of about 2.5ppm.
The main spacing in the xls diagrams is 1 ppm.

Standard deviation, i.e. rms noise, measured over the last hour is about 0.13ppm

I assume, that there might be a switch mode power supply or similar in your room, or your resistor is not properly connected.


What's this strange resistor, you are using? Didn't find it anywhere.
Do you have a photo of your setup?

Frank


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 22, 2016, 03:40:07 pm
Just for completeness, here are some more screen shots from the DMM7510, as a statistical reference.
This time I was careful not to touch the cables.
What is just really stupid on the Keithley is the numbering to the left of the graph.
May be Keithley did not expect us to use it for precision measurements?

And yes, Dr.Diesel the graphing functions of these great meters are something one can get really fast used to and never wants to miss again.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 22, 2016, 04:06:10 pm

I assume, that there might be a switch mode power supply or similar in your room, or your resistor is not properly connected.


What's this strange resistor, you are using? Didn't find it anywhere.
Do you have a photo of your setup?

Frank

I don't have problems with other meters (HP3458A and Keithley 2000) in the same lab, and I don't have problems with voltage measurements on the 34465A. The resistor I've used (LT450C) is this one (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/best-way-for-decade-resistor/msg1027780/#msg1027780) , in a metal enclosure and connected with short twisted pairs and gold plated beryllium copper plugs.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 22, 2016, 08:05:26 pm
Here is a graph with a 2 hour run using my LTC450C 10K "standard" (measured by HP3458 about a week ago and by Keysight 34465A today) . Overnight variations were even larger - about 25ppm p-p. Is this a typical behaviour for the 34465A ?

Cheers

Alex

This size of fluctuation, about 1ppm, up to 25ppm, has nothing to do with "noise". If your instrument would be the root cause, this would really be a defect of its Ohm circuitry.
But I doubt that. At least, I can't imagine the electrical failure mode, which would create such a failure picture. The Ohm circuit is assumed to be the very same as the one inside the 34410/411, and we've never seen a similar failure. It's also quite improbable, that the 34465A as a new instrument would fail, or you know already, that you somehow damaged the Ohm circuit by external overvoltage; which is also lesser probable to cause a failure, by the instruments protection circuitry.

Your resistor assembly, anyhow looks as to tend more probably to fail:
It has no 4W connection, so you will have to make 4W measurements artificially on these two jacks.
I don't know the quality of your cables, but broken cables or oxidized connectors might also create such failures.

You have used 3x 100M as trimming resistors. This gives about 33ppm change of 10kOhm, and that's in the exactly same ballpark as the ~25ppm you observe as fluctuations. That alone makes me suspicious.
Resistors in the high MOhm values are usually unstable, especially these thin film or coal film types, and tend to fail fatally. (which type are these, actually??)
Maybe there's a cold solder junction, or a crack inside these resistors, which create these fluctuations.

Then you mentioned, that you drilled the cables. What kind of isolation do these have? Which cables are paired?
If you drilled Sense+ and Sense-, and your cables have a poor isolator like PVC, this will create big errors by leakage, on the order of many ppm, and also depending on the moving of these cables.
If these are isloated by TF, it's better, but otherwise, you have to separate cables, which are on positive and negative potential.

Then you said, that you measured this resistor OK with the 3458A, but one week BEFORE this measurement.
Therefore you can't be sure, that your resistor assembly did NOT go defect in between.
If you re-measure with the 3458A NOW, maybe it also shows this fault.

I only can hint to my own experience, being tricked by the resistor DUT itself.
Comparing Ohm measurements (on 100k) of 34465A vs. 3458A, which differed by about 30ppm also, I thought, that my 3458A would be defect!

In the end, it turned out that the DUT  showed a dielectric relaxation effect, which I discovered only by the different OCOMP timings of both instruments.

So, purely from a logical aspect, I propose that you look for the fault at the more probable resistor, than at the less probable 34465A.

Maybe you have another stable 10k resistor, which you can test. 1k and 100k resistors also might do the job, as it's only another range. A simple thin film 10k resistor would show a big, but smooth temperature drift, but no fluctuations.
Or you simplify the DUT by measuring the precision resistor 'naked', as I have done; and by simplification, I finally found the root cause.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 22, 2016, 09:16:32 pm
Hi Frank,

Thank you for such a long and thorough post. I can say that:

1) I've observed these fluctuations first on an overnight run with a completely different resistor (10K UPW25 wire-wound), just plugged in with it's leads formed to fit with some force into the meter's sockets, in 2-way mode. I've suspected the resistor first and repeated the measurements with my reference in  4-way connection and got the similar variations, I also connected the UPW resistor in 4-way configuration by soldering the wires to it. Same results.

2) My reference resistor was modified after I took that picture but before if was measured again with the HP3458A. The chain of three small 100M resistors was replaced by a quality thin film 1% 100ppm/C 300M resistor.

3) As I've mentioned, if I run ACAL at a point where the measured value is 10-15ppm off, the meter gets to a correct value within 1-2ppm (usual ACAL variations).

4) There are no obvious sources of strong RF/EM interference in the lab, I work there all the time with fairly sensitive stuff (electometers and very high stability power supplies) without any problems. I didn't have this noise on the same two resistors with either HP3458A or Keithley 2000 in the same lab. I will run the tests again side by side when I get the HP3458A back from Keysight calibration lab.

5) I use Cat 6 network cable twisted pairs and beryllium copper spring plugs (which I found rather nice and inexpensive). I will take some photos on Monday.

So, I will double-check all my findings but right now it certainly looks like a fault in the 34465A .

Cheers

Alex

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 24, 2016, 09:36:37 am
Here is the result of a long run over the weekend (68 hours in total), 10K LT450C in a grounded enclosure, NPLC100, 10sec sampling intervals. I will talk to Keysight later today  :( . My two Keithley 2015 at home have less than 2ppm p-p noise on 10K resistor with NPLC10 + 10 averages (about an equivalent of NPLS100).

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 24, 2016, 07:11:42 pm
Just for completeness, here's another 12h run, after ACAL, and fully warmed up.
Apart from the initial fluctuations, the reading is stable to < 0.5ppm over 12h, StD measures 0.16ppm.
That's as should be, very nice.

For narrowing the error, I propose to check the front/rear switch by engaging it several times, and if this fault also occurs on the rear jacks.
Then, you might check the stability of the 10kOhm current source in 4W mode with another DMM, I think it's 100uA.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 25, 2016, 04:29:48 pm
Just for completeness, here's another 12h run, after ACAL, and fully warmed up.
Apart from the initial fluctuations, the reading is stable to < 0.5ppm over 12h, StD measures 0.16ppm.
That's as should be, very nice.

For narrowing the error, I propose to check the front/rear switch by engaging it several times, and if this fault also occurs on the rear jacks.
Then, you might check the stability of the 10kOhm current source in 4W mode with another DMM, I think it's 100uA.

Frank

Hi Frank,

Thank you, I will check the front/back terminals tomorrow. Meanwhile Keysight came back to me and essentially said that 25ppm variation is inside +/-35ppm 90 days specification for 10K range  :palm: . I did point out to them that there is also the specification on the noise for resistance ranges and for NPLC 100 and 10K it is 1ppm . Let's see what their reply would be this time... . May I use your graph in my correspondence with Keysight as an example of a healthy 34465A readings?

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: saturnin on October 25, 2016, 06:01:18 pm
For 34465A, 24-hour stability of 10K range is +/-25 ppm. Value of +/-35 ppm is valid for 34460A - they even don't know specs of their own products, lol.

Btw. I wonder where you found specs on the noise performance of resistance ranges? I can't find them...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 25, 2016, 06:28:51 pm
For 34465A, 24-hour stability of 10K range is +/-25 ppm. Value of +/-35 ppm is valid for 34460A - they even don't know specs of their own products, lol.

Btw. I wonder where you found specs on the noise performance of resistance ranges? I can't find them...

1) My error (already corrected) - they actually did refer to 90 days spec (!)

2) Here is the part of the data sheet for the 34460/61/65/70A.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 25, 2016, 07:26:52 pm

Hi Frank,

.. . May I use your graph in my correspondence with Keysight as an example of a healthy 34465A readings?

Cheers

Alex

Of course.

Arguing with the RMS noise is quite difficult with Keysight, as everything is inside specification, even your fluctuating measurements.

Therefore, a comparison like this is good, better if you really find an issue like an unstable current source (check also other ranges), or a bad switch.

I can't complain about KS, they reacted very quickly to my findings about the 100V/1kV range errors, and even replaced the instrument for analysis.
In my case, these errors were also inside specification. James Durr did a great job.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: saturnin on October 25, 2016, 07:37:58 pm
@Alex

Aha, I see now ... but if I read the table correctly 1 ppm noise adder value refers to NPLC=1. It is 0 ppm for NPLC=100. (Do they really mean that there is 0 ppm noise with NPLC=100?)

As Dr. Frank wrote, 25 ppm variations you observe do not violate +/-25 ppm 24hour specs, so I think the only change is to blame ohm noise performance of your unit...

Have you measured what the short-term rms noise (sdev) of your unit is?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 25, 2016, 08:23:54 pm

Hi Frank,

.. . May I use your graph in my correspondence with Keysight as an example of a healthy 34465A readings?

Cheers

Alex

Of course.

Arguing with the RMS noise is quite difficult with Keysight, as everything is inside specification, even your fluctuating measurements.

Therefore, a comparison like this is good, better if you really find an issue like an unstable current source (check also other ranges), or a bad switch.

I can't complain about KS, they reacted very quickly to my findings about the 100V/1kV range errors, and even replaced the instrument for analysis.
In my case, these errors were also inside specification. James Durr did a great job.

Frank

Thank you.

@Alex

Aha, I see now ... but if I read the table correctly 1 ppm noise adder value refers to NPLC=1. It is 0 ppm for NPLC=100. (Do they really mean that there is 0 ppm noise with NPLC=100?)

As Dr. Frank wrote, 25 ppm variations you observe do not violate +/-25 ppm 24hour specs, so I think the only change is to blame ohm noise performance of your unit...

Have you measured what the short-term rms noise (sdev) of your unit is?

I read this "0" RMS noise value as <1ppm. Which is confirmed by Dr. Frank's results (sdev = 0.16ppm) .

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 26, 2016, 10:52:13 am

Arguing with the RMS noise is quite difficult with Keysight, as everything is inside specification, even your fluctuating measurements.

Therefore, a comparison like this is good, better if you really find an issue like an unstable current source (check also other ranges), or a bad switch.

Hi Frank,

Thank you, your graph and some additional information from me did convince Keysight and I'll get a replacement meter from Farnell sometime soon tomorrow. I've tried rear terminals and other resistance ranges today and get roughly the same "jumpy" results. Here is the graph from real terminals for 2.5 hours. Let's hope the replacement would be OK.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 26, 2016, 11:32:16 am

Hi Frank,

Thank you, your graph and some additional information from me did convince Keysight and I'll get a replacement meter from Farnell sometime soon tomorrow. I've tried rear terminals and other resistance ranges today and get roughly the same "jumpy" results. Here is the graph from real terminals for 2.5 hours. Let's hope the replacement would be OK.

Cheers

Alex

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

are you able to measure the current source in 4W mode? I'd be interested in this failure mode, as KS probably won't give a feedback.
Also, please save the serial number, so that you can see in a few weeks, whether your unit had been refurbished..

The replacement for sure will be as good as mine  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 26, 2016, 11:39:25 am

 ;D ;D ;D ;D

are you able to measure the current source in 4W mode? I'd be interested in this failure mode, as KS probably won't give a feedback.


Unfortunately, I couldn't measure the current as our HP3458A is out for calibration, however from the data I've collected on other ranges it looks like the "jumps" are proportional to the measured value for a particular range (i.e. measuring 500 Ohm on 1K range gave me jumps of ~10ppm from 500 Ohm), and that reasonably confirms the current source problem. And I have the serial number recorded  ;) .

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on October 31, 2016, 12:03:33 pm
An update. I've received the replacement 34465A last week and it was on continuously for about 100 hours so far. I've run a log over the weekend measuring the LTZ1000 and the meter drifted about 4ppm down, however ACAL this morning returned the results to within 1ppm of measured by HP3458A previously. The resistance ranges are now nice and stable, the attached graph shows 1 hour log for two 34465A and HP3458A  - all for NPLC 100 measuring my 10K LTC450C reference resistor (taken at different times, obviously, but with a fairly constant temperature in the lab for each run). Keysight UK was very helpful in resolving this problem. I aslo should get the 3458A Opt 002 back from them later this week so I will have a freshly calibrated reference.

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on October 31, 2016, 01:32:17 pm
Thanks for followup, Alex Nikitin. That was hell of a wacked meter before. Sorry for doubting your measurement skills  :phew:.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 31, 2016, 03:15:30 pm
What a huge difference between those two 3465A meters. Great that Keysight solved this for you.
But also a surprise, that your first meter has left the factory like that.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on November 04, 2016, 10:36:57 am
What a huge difference between those two 3465A meters. Great that Keysight solved this for you.
But also a surprise, that your first meter has left the factory like that.

Yes, it was an unpleasant surprise. The second meter meanwhile has settled and does not drift as in first few days. Here is an overnight run using the same LT450C 10K resistor "standard", with the room temperature log as well. Vertical scale 1ppm/1C/div

Cheers

Alex
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Alex Nikitin on December 24, 2016, 12:18:57 am
Another update. The replacement K34465A was running 24x7 for last two months and today I've paired it with the Fluke 731B. Below is the result of a 3 hours run at a fairly constant temperature in the lab (about 24C). I am rather surprised at a good noise performance and stability. It looks like the reference in the unit is a pretty decent one. Measurements are done at 10s intervals, NPLC100, vertical scale 0.5ppm/div.

Cheers

Alex

(http://www.ant-audio.co.uk/Test_Gear/K34465A_F731B_3h_01.gif)

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: upover on January 29, 2017, 04:29:50 pm
Keysight have terminated their offer of a free MEM upgrade for the Truevolt DMMs.
Anyone know if this is a returning offer?
I'm buying mine NOW from Farnell Norway  :(
After reading a ridiculous amount of posts, I have concluded that a 34465a is the sweet spot.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: F64098 on January 29, 2017, 09:25:00 pm
Keysight have terminated their offer of a free MEM upgrade for the Truevolt DMMs.
Anyone know if this is a returning offer?
I'm buying mine NOW from Farnell Norway  :(

The registration period ends february 28nd.
You don't have to present the bill or other papers.
You just have to claim, you bought it on december 29nd...

HTH

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Messtechniker on February 15, 2017, 12:01:18 pm
Just for the heck of it:
I know the 34465A is capable if measuring its internal temperature whereby
the sensor is located at the front terminals. This internal temperature can
be displayed externally too. Great. But can it be shown on it's own display?
And even processed as any other displayed value (included in dual display mode, add offset, histogram, record etc.)?
If not - this might be a contender for the next firmware update.

Yours Messtechniker



Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on February 15, 2017, 05:15:35 pm
The measured temperature is displayed on the calibration screen. I haven't seen any way to use it elsewhere.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on February 15, 2017, 05:46:54 pm
Note that I don't know how good the internal temp sensor is. I have a 34461A and a 34465A and they are about 2C different...
I asked Keysight a while ago about this and they said:

"The temperature shown in the 34461A calibration window is the internal temperature of the instrument. The temperature sensor is located on the PC board. This temperature/sensor is not calibrated. Changes in the internal temperature should correlate to changes in the ambient temperature."
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kj7e on May 25, 2017, 04:54:09 pm
It looks like our 34465A is failing the noise spec on 10K. I'll talk to Keysight on Monday. It would be nice if somebody with the 34465A would repeat this resistance test (10K, 100NPLC, 10 sec logging interval).

Cheers

Alex


I know your meter was replaced already, but I was curious to try this myself.  10K, 10NPLC over 12 hours with temp plot overlay.
VPG, Z201 in a shielded enclosure;
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/resistance-standard-shielding-how-important-is-it/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/resistance-standard-shielding-how-important-is-it/)

So if I'm reading this correctly, this shows 1.4ppm Std dev over 12 hours, much of that is tempco;
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kj7e on May 25, 2017, 07:34:31 pm
An update. I've received the replacement 34465A last week and it was on continuously for about 100 hours so far. I've run a log over the weekend measuring the LTZ1000 and the meter drifted about 4ppm down, however ACAL this morning returned the results to within 1ppm of measured by HP3458A previously. The resistance ranges are now nice and stable, the attached graph shows 1 hour log for two 34465A and HP3458A  - all for NPLC 100 measuring my 10K LTC450C reference resistor (taken at different times, obviously, but with a fairly constant temperature in the lab for each run). Keysight UK was very helpful in resolving this problem. I aslo should get the 3458A Opt 002 back from them later this week so I will have a freshly calibrated reference.

Cheers

Alex

My attempt to duplicate your 1 hour, 100NPLC, 10K 4W, 2ppm full vertical scale with lines at 0.5ppm;
Edit, typo in the chart title, should be 34465a.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Faith on July 23, 2017, 05:38:53 am
Hey everyone. So I've finally managed to get my new lab set up after finally securing, designing and renovating the interior of my home.

I did however have everything in storage for several months during my housing woes to make moving around easier.

So anyhow now that everything's back up and running I did a quick check on all of my equipment today and I realised that my 34465A is a lot noisier than I remember on the ohms range (particularly 10K-100K).

When measuring a 100K resistor on the 100K ohms range at 10PLC the reading jumps after each update with a variance of up to 5 ohms.

At 100PLC it's a little less noisy (though I suspect due to averaging?) but I still see a variance of several hundred milliohms following each update.

I don't have a proper sealed resistance standard but I do have a pile of Vishay PTF56 resistors lying around which I used for testing (during the afternoon, no lights, and everything else powered down).

Is this normal? I don't recall this behaviour when I last used this instrument.

It's been running for an hour now so I've just cleared its statistics and will let it gather more data for the next couple of hours.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: floobydust on July 23, 2017, 06:11:20 am
Try put the cap/resistor under test right in the input jacks, compared to at the end of the test leads.

I find the LSD moving around so much on 34461's on resistance and worse on capacitance, I had to laugh at all those supposed extra digits.

I traced it down to some sensitivity to hum or common-mode noise on the 34461's. Even on a "quiet" bench with no other equipment. You new lab might have more noise/different grounding and layout.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Faith on July 23, 2017, 06:25:29 am
Try put the cap/resistor under test right in the input jacks, compared to at the end of the test leads.

I find the LSD moving around so much on 34461's on resistance and worse on capacitance, I had to laugh at all those supposed extra digits.

Thanks for your quick reply!

I'll give that a try later once I've gathered all the data for my current test run!

You new lab might have more noise/different grounding and layout.

Yep that came to mind >,<"... though every other measurement (volts & amps) are pretty quiet.

I'll also point out that I do not by any means require super-accurate measurements (hobbyist and all), but my 34465A is my best DMM so I treat it as my reference point for every other meter and hence I like to make sure it works properly.

So just want to make sure that there isn't any other underlying problem with the meter that's causing this or potentially any other issue.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on July 23, 2017, 08:29:22 am
Do a 4 wire resistance measurement of a 1 Ohm resistor and compare the noise level.

Any kind of RF transmitter, phone, wireless router, neighbors router and so on can have a significant influence on the digits, especially when you measure a 100k resistor with 2 wires. I don't think there is something wrong with your 34465A.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: floobydust on July 24, 2017, 07:07:00 pm
As far as I investigated, something for others to keep an eye on, these meters use a mains SMPS and associated Y-capacitors.
So they generate their own common-mode noise- that seemed to be what I was seeing.

I would be curious if it's the lab/setup noise or the meter's have a sensitivity to RF.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on July 24, 2017, 08:05:03 pm
As far as I investigated, something for others to keep an eye on, these meters use a mains SMPS and associated Y-capacitors.
So they generate their own common-mode noise- that seemed to be what I was seeing.

I would be curious if it's the lab/setup noise or the meter's have a sensitivity to RF.

What leads you to believe these meters use a SMPS?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on July 24, 2017, 08:09:13 pm
As far as I investigated, something for others to keep an eye on, these meters use a mains SMPS and associated Y-capacitors.
So they generate their own common-mode noise- that seemed to be what I was seeing.

These meters and previous models of Agilent meters have all a linear power supply and no SMPS !
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: floobydust on July 25, 2017, 01:41:10 am
Really?! After the cooling fan roar, as my first multimeter ever with a fan  >:(  I assumed Keysight went SMPS for small size.
This would be good news. So it probably has a line-filter with Y-caps then.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on July 25, 2017, 01:59:38 am
Really?! After the cooling fan roar, as my first multimeter ever with a fan  >:(  I assumed Keysight went SMPS for small size.
This would be good news. So it probably has a line-filter with Y-caps then.

So you just decided to post that they have a SMPS without actually looking? That is a pretty bold statement to make, a little research wouldn't hurt next time. The Keysight frequency counters, AWG's etc use a SMPS, the DMM's are all linear.
The fan on my 34461A is pretty darn quiet, it is actually the least noisy of all of my fan equipped gear - but I'd still prefer it didn't have a fan and it doesn't seem to need it in a cool environment.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: floobydust on July 25, 2017, 05:40:00 am
I'm wrong, Dave's 34461A teardown pics (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/sets/72157634225126018/) show a power transformer and looks like POL buck converters.

After seeing a simple capacitance measurement noisy and then perfectly quiet with no test leads, I wrongly assumed these have mains-SMPS contributing noise. What else could it be, as no other gear in the lab suffers from this.

Bought two 34461A's to replace aging 34401's and thoroughly disappointed.  Would not purchase again.
Sorry, I am not a fanboy of these meters.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on July 25, 2017, 06:12:13 am
It's too bad they don't meet your expectations. When the 3446x series was released they didn't even have capacitance measurement, it is quite possible it was a bit of an after thought. Also noteworthy is that the 34460A does not have a fan in it, only the higher models do.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: MrW0lf on July 25, 2017, 07:27:41 am
Just as side note... Even mains power today is mostly much more than power. Here we have this:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=335037)

Can imagine it can create all sorts of weirdness due to intermittent nature.


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: floobydust on July 25, 2017, 10:56:57 pm
I find a ton of 66kHz on mains from PC power supplies (office building) and a lot of FM radio (~100MHz) when I look with a spectrum analyzer.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: mightyohm on August 08, 2017, 01:42:48 am
Is it just me, or is it surprisingly hard to find information on counts / resolution of the new Keysight meters?  It doesn't look like they've published this information in the datasheets or user manuals for the 34461A/34465A/34475A.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: ruairi on August 08, 2017, 01:47:17 am
After seeing a simple capacitance measurement noisy and then perfectly quiet with no test leads, I wrongly assumed these have mains-SMPS contributing noise. What else could it be, as no other gear in the lab suffers from this.

Bought two 34461A's to replace aging 34401's and thoroughly disappointed.  Would not purchase again.
Sorry, I am not a fanboy of these meters.

Sorry if you detailed it earlier in the thread but what was your capacitor test?  I can try to repeat on my 34465a.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: floobydust on August 08, 2017, 03:50:22 am
I'd been using a 47nF and 100nF disc capacitor. The least-sig digit is always bouncing around and worse if it also toggles the next digit., then you have two sig-digits bouncing around.
I connected the cap to the end of the test leads.

Compare with putting the cap (leads) right in the input jacks. I bend them into a "J" and poke them in.

This is with the (latest 34461A) firmware version: 2.14, Release Date: 2016-04-27;
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Someone on August 08, 2017, 04:32:02 am
Is it just me, or is it surprisingly hard to find information on counts / resolution of the new Keysight meters?  It doesn't look like they've published this information in the datasheets or user manuals for the 34461A/34465A/34475A.
In almost all situations the accuracy is much worse than the available resolution, so most users are not concerned with this as the readout resolution is excessive in their use cases (you can manually reduce the number of digits if desired). Otherwise there is a short section towards the end of the data sheet showing the tradeoff between digits and integration time.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: mightyohm on August 08, 2017, 05:48:12 am
In almost all situations the accuracy is much worse than the available resolution, so most users are not concerned with this as the readout resolution is excessive in their use cases (you can manually reduce the number of digits if desired). Otherwise there is a short section towards the end of the data sheet showing the tradeoff between digits and integration time.

Ok, that makes sense.  Maybe this is a dumb question, but given that the accuracy specs across many ranges are the same between the 34465A and 34470A, why pay for the extra digits?

Edit: I should clarify, I was looking at the current ranges.  The voltage measuring accuracy of the 70A is considerably better than the 65A, so I assume that's what folks are paying for.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: cellularmitosis on August 08, 2017, 05:56:15 am
Yeah, this is much more cryptic than it used to be.  Compare the 34401a manual to the 34465a manual:
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Someone on August 09, 2017, 01:45:40 am
In almost all situations the accuracy is much worse than the available resolution, so most users are not concerned with this as the readout resolution is excessive in their use cases (you can manually reduce the number of digits if desired). Otherwise there is a short section towards the end of the data sheet showing the tradeoff between digits and integration time.

Ok, that makes sense.  Maybe this is a dumb question, but given that the accuracy specs across many ranges are the same between the 34465A and 34470A, why pay for the extra digits?

Edit: I should clarify, I was looking at the current ranges.  The voltage measuring accuracy of the 70A is considerably better than the 65A, so I assume that's what folks are paying for.
I think you've come to the conclusion yourself, a higher model might only be improved in some areas and not all. This is common across multimeter series both bench and handheld.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on August 09, 2017, 06:12:13 am


Ok, that makes sense.  Maybe this is a dumb question, but given that the accuracy specs across many ranges are the same between the 34465A and 34470A, why pay for the extra digits?

Edit: I should clarify, I was looking at the current ranges.  The voltage measuring accuracy of the 70A is considerably better than the 65A, so I assume that's what folks are paying for.

Please read inside this thread, that the 34465A and the 34470A are virtually identical in hardware, and also in performance.
The only physical difference is the voltage reference, i.e. LM399 versus LTZ1000A, respectively.
That makes the '470A more stable and less noisy in DCV, as reflected in the specification, and by our common noise measurements.

All other parameters are identical, and over the bus, the resolution of both instruments is identical, too.
This is in contrast to the resolution specification in the user manual.

The '470A displays 7 1/2 digits in most, but not all modes, when using the instrument 'on the bench'.
But this additional resolution has nothing to do with accuracy or stability, see my review of 465A vs. 470A, also:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/msg889215/#msg889215 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/msg889215/#msg889215)

Therefore, you pay double the price for an LTZ1000A reference (about 350$ as spare part), and the 7 1/2 digits feeling, only.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: tomeo.gonzales on August 09, 2017, 07:17:15 pm
It is possible to buy the reference from 34470A and use it in 34465A for better noise and stability performance?
The part number for reference is 34470-66303 (PCA, Reference, Tested) and on Keysight web site they say:

Products using part  34470-66303
  •34465A
  •34470A

So it seems they have a single part number for both devices.
The price is 381$
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kj7e on August 09, 2017, 07:30:35 pm
Your also paying for the calibration with the 34470A.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on August 09, 2017, 08:02:46 pm
Your also paying for the calibration with the 34470A.

..which is identical for both instruments.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: GlowingGhoul on August 09, 2017, 08:33:21 pm
Your also paying for the calibration with the 34470A.

..which is identical for both instruments.

It's quite simple really. If you have decided to add a 6.5 and a 7.5 meter to your product lineup, you design a 7.5 and downgrade the same design to a 6.5. When it comes to pricing, the higher spec, niche product bears a higher amount of the development costs in it's pricing, as well as the slightly higher material costs.

To argue that the only difference in price should be the material cost shows why engineers are rarely involved in selling anything.

And consumers win too, because invariably the lower end product is better than if it were not derived from a higher spec design, without paying a premium.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: cellularmitosis on August 09, 2017, 10:28:07 pm
Market segmentation is great and all, but be careful with creating artificial market segmentation when your primary market is engineers.  In addition to leaving a bad taste in their mouths, they tend to find a way to hack around it anyway.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on September 24, 2017, 06:10:47 pm
Hi all,

I think I may have discovered a bug in the SCPI command of the 34465A.
I'm trying to store png picture using SCPI over telnet issuing the command:
HCOP:SDUM:DATA:FORM PNG
HCOP:SDUM:DATA?
and I found that the output data is partially corrupted.
As an example the PNG header must be (hex) 89 50 4E 47 0D 0A 1A 0A and I receive 89 50 4E 47 0D 0A 1A 00.
Even If I restore the header the PNG is still garbled.
Of course if I try to download the data (I tryed even 1M samples) values are correct.
Firmware version is A.02.14-02.40-02.14-00.49-02-01

I've already submitted a support request to keysight and I'm waiting for an answer from them.

Anyone here knows something?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on September 28, 2017, 10:52:30 am
Update:

after a few mail with Keysight and a couple test the telnet bug is obviously still there and probably they wouldn't take care of.
I used Wireshark to demonstrate that the bug is on the server (DMM) side, data is corrupted before entering the client.
For anyone interested in remoting those multimeters don't use telnet but use socket instead.

After wasting some days trying figure out what's wrong I'm very disappointed by Keysight.

Regards,
0xfede



Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Kean on September 28, 2017, 01:06:51 pm
This sounds like it is due to the way Telnet protocol is designed to handle certain binary data (OOB signalling, etc).
There are things you can negotiate in the protocol that could possibly get around this.  You'll need to read the appropriate RFC for more info, it has been nearly 20 years since I last implemented a telnet client and all the DO/DONT/WILL/WONT crap.
It could also be a limitation on the underlying telnet server implementation they've used, and I'm not surprised if they'd class this as a "wont fix" if there is a pretty simple workaround.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on September 28, 2017, 02:05:57 pm
Hi Kean, when I first saw the problem I looked into RFC854 (telnet) to see if the client implementation was wrong.
The only special character that needs to be managed differentely is the IAC (0xFF). Since there is no such value in the stream (before corruption) there is no reason for data to get wild.
From RFC854 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc854, page 14):
'....only the IAC need be doubled to be sent as data, and the other 255 codes may be passed transparently....'

I don't know what's wrong with their server implementations but if they are not interested in fixing this bug they should avoid citing telnet compatibility in the manual.

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: exe on September 28, 2017, 02:12:05 pm
Market segmentation is great and all, but be careful with creating artificial market segmentation when your primary market is engineers.  In addition to leaving a bad taste in their mouths, they tend to find a way to hack around it anyway.

I totally agree with you, but... Most equipment manufacturers target at corporate sector where it works a bit differently. Companies don't care about cost of equipment as long as it pays back.

PS I've seen people claiming "one repair justifies a new $500 soldering station" or "if you don't have a $5k+ scope then you are a bad engineer doing low-qualified work". I dunno how common is this, I'm just a hobbyist. But these guys are often selfish jerks scamming their customers. Or lucky bastards :)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: lukier on September 28, 2017, 02:25:49 pm
I totally agree with you, but... Most equipment manufacturers target at corporate sector where it works a bit differently. Companies don't care about cost of equipment as long as it pays back.

And guess who makes the purchasing decisions in this corporate sector? Usually, the engineers recommend the equipment to the management to push it through the purchasing department. I might not be able to select a particular distributor, as corporate policies might limit that, I might not care about the cost (as much as I would do personally), but still, the equipment purchasing is not always a random process.

It might be different in the public sector (think university labs) where the contracts are won by the price alone and often there is no competent engineer in the loop. Hence the popularity of Tektronix in many labs.

PS I've seen people claiming "one repair justifies a new $500 soldering station".
That is partially true, a lot of stuff gets thrown away if it is not under warranty because often there is nobody that could (legally!) do the repairs and make it economic (it doesn't make a sense for a senior engineer waste their time doing repairs).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Kean on September 30, 2017, 01:32:17 am
0xfede I agree - but telnet just isn't really the right protocol for transfer of binary data.

It is important to remember (or discover) that telnet has a lot of history behind it trying to support so many different needs of another era - such as teletypewriters (tel-net as in "teletype network"), as well as raw, line mode, and even block mode (3270) CRT terminals.  And of course many systems back in the heydays of telnet could only really support 7 bit ASCII (or maybe EBCDIC), even if TCP/IP & telnet protocol required 8-bits.  Protocols like X/Y/Z-modem and Kermit were still heavily used for transferring text or binary files between wildly different systems, even after networks became commonplace.  Side note - I still know of companies using my Windows terminal emulator client & the embedded/automated Kermit file transfer features.

Beyond RFC 854 there is at least another dozen RFCs trying to nail down the specification for implementation compatbility, any subset of which may have been actually implemented (let alone tested) in a particular "host" (such as the 344xxA).  e.g. RFC 856 is specifically about binary transmission, and 1123 section 3.3.1 deals with EOL stuff which ISTR was a pain across the various Unix platforms I was dealing with many years ago (let alone echo and backspace weirdness).

Glad to hear that you seem to have sorted this out by using a socket connection instead.  :-+

Moral of the story: There is a reason the documents are called "RFC"s and not specifications or standards!   ;D
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Echo88 on October 28, 2017, 04:51:11 pm
Just did a quick bias current measurement of my Keithley 34465A, just to check my new Triax-Banana-adapter-cable. Conditions: 10VDC, 10NPLC, AZ Off, Input Z Auto. Input-Voltage was 10...-10V, bias current measured with a Keithley 2500. Dont know if anyone can use this measurement, but i found it interesting.

Volt  Current
10   -7.4pA
9   -6.1pA
8   -5.0pA
7   -4.1pA
6   -3.2pA
5   -2.1pA
4   -1.2pA
3   -0.2pA
2   -0.1pA
1   +0.0pA
0   +0.7pA
-1   +1.9pA
-2   +3.3pA
-3   +4.7pA
-4   +6.0pA
-5   +8.8pA
-6   +9.2pA
-7   +10.9pA
-8   +13.9pA   
-9   +15.8pA
-10   +19.0pA
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: fonograph on October 28, 2017, 08:39:08 pm
In dmm noise thread,High Voltage posted comparsion where both 34470 and keithley 7510 set to 10V DCV range and he is measuring warmed up stable reference.It shows 7510 gets stable in 40 seconds while 34470 needs 20 minutes to reach stability due to warm up.

Can someone do the same tests? I am specificaly curious if 34465 with its lm399 reference warms up faster.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: fonograph on October 29, 2017, 01:44:11 pm
How linear are the 34460,61,65 and 70 adc? I read on 65,70 brochure that they are 0.5ppm.Keithley 7510 datasheet shows 1ppm + 1ppm of range.

1. What is adc linearity of 34460?
2. What is adc linearity of 34461?
3. What is adc linearity of 34465?
4. What is adc linearity of 34470?
5. What is this "1ppm +1ppm of range"? I dont understand it,how is it different to just 2ppm linearity?

edit: I found another brochure,this one is from Testequity and it says 61 = 2ppm,65 = 1ppm,70 = 0.5ppm
Interesting,I thought they 65 and 70 have same adc,I tought only difference is that 70 have ltz1000,correct me if I am wrong but voltage reference doesnt have anything to do with adc linearity?

http://www.testequity.com/documents/pdf/keysight/34461A-34465A-34470A-ad.pdf (http://www.testequity.com/documents/pdf/keysight/34461A-34465A-34470A-ad.pdf)

34460 isnt mentioned there,what is its linearity?

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Kleinstein on October 29, 2017, 03:28:07 pm
Even if they use the same ADC circuit, and maybe even the same board (except for the reference module), there can be still a difference in the parts used. This might not be visible, like selected better ones. Another difference that is not visible is a tighter testing: so the 470 might have gone through an extra test or a more stringent test to guarantee the 0.5 ppm linearity spec.

The LTZ reference in the 470 should not take so long to stabilize. It is more like other part on the board that need to stabilize to get full or near full stability. The amount of temperature drift can vary between units, so there can be better ones too.

The DMM7510 seems to use extensive temperature measurement and numerical corrections. This way the performance can be good, but not perfect even before reaching thermal stability. It might also be lower TC by itself. However the AZ Implementaion sucks and thus quite some extra LF noise.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 29, 2017, 04:25:33 pm
In dmm noise thread,High Voltage posted comparsion where both 34470 and keithley 7510 set to 10V DCV range and he is measuring warmed up stable reference.It shows 7510 gets stable in 40 seconds while 34470 needs 20 minutes to reach stability due to warm up.

Can someone do the same tests? I am specificaly curious if 34465 with its lm399 reference warms up faster.

Hello Fonograph
Sorry, I dont have a Keysight 34465A (not yet) but I compared here a 34461A (LM399) with a 34470A (LTZ1000). And there is almost no difference in warmup time.

- 34461A, increase of 210 mV during 30 min warmup
- 34470A, increase of 172 mV during 30 min warmup

So, I would suspect the 34465A to be in the same range.


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: fonograph on October 29, 2017, 07:08:01 pm
Thank you very much.I looked again and I made mistake,it was maxwell3e10 who posted that 65 vs 7510 graph.I think the 61 is goid enough,its obvious that it isnt the reference.

I dont know what to do,34470 have normaly working autozero and datasheet spec says it have 0.5ppm linearity but it turns on for 20 minutes and its temperature coefficient is double of 7510.
7510 is better in everything except that horrible useless autozero and as result its averaging almost doesnt work at all,also the linearity is 2ppm,thats probably not a issue,but 34465 is 1ppm and cost 1/3.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 29, 2017, 07:26:45 pm
If you don't need the resolution of the 7 1/2 digit 7510 or 34470A, then the 34465A should be perfect for you.


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: maxwell3e10 on October 30, 2017, 05:22:23 am
DMM7510 has the potential to be a great meter.  Its temperature coefficient is specified at 0.15ppm/degree, a factor of 10 better than for 34470. That is probably the reason it reaches steady state much faster. In my tests for dynamic temperature changes at 1000 sec it was about a factor of 2 better than 34470. That comes out to TC of about 0.4ppm/degree for 7510, worse than spec, although its not exactly the same kind of test.  DMM7510 also has much lower noise on 100mV and 1V ranges.  The interface is nicer and it has more capabilities.

That is why its so frustrating that the 7510 autozero firmware problem has not been solved. Also the interface is still buggy (my latest success in crashing it involved using temperature secondary measurement). So there is no clear winner.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 30, 2017, 11:06:35 am
DMM7510 has the potential to be a great meter.  Its temperature coefficient is specified at 0.15ppm/degree, a factor of 10 better than for 34470. That is probably the reason it reaches steady state much faster. In my tests for dynamic temperature changes at 1000 sec it was about a factor of 2 better than 34470. That comes out to TC of about 0.4ppm/degree for 7510, worse than spec, although its not exactly the same kind of test.  DMM7510 also has much lower noise on 100mV and 1V ranges.  The interface is nicer and it has more capabilities.

That is why its so frustrating that the 7510 autozero firmware problem has not been solved. Also the interface is still buggy (my latest success in crashing it involved using temperature secondary measurement). So there is no clear winner.

I totally agree with all your points.

In comparison, I like both meters a lot.

The 7510 is repeatedly more stable than 34470A (in the ppm range) and I am not even using the ACAL feature on the 7510! The ACAL on the 34470A is sometimes flaky and over corrects and then needs few min to correct itself again. But the really amazing feature of the 7510 is the ultra fast warmup time.
Here is a new picture from today below.
After turn on, I cleared the memory after 10 seconds because of the weird saw-tooth graph at the very beginning. And then in 120 seconds after that, the instrument is stable.

Another very important thing to consider is service. (within a warranty or outside of warranty). Try to get any kind of service with Keithley / Tektronix is a horrible experience, to say the least. If it comes to service alone, I would never buy a Keithley / Tektronix instrument again.

If you have any problems with a Keysight instrument, it is being taken care of immediately and so far always to my fullest satisfaction. This summer I had both of my 34470A serviced at the Keysight  Böblingen / Germany facility and I was (again) astonished about the really amazing service attention I got.


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dr.diesel on October 30, 2017, 12:08:01 pm
Another very important thing to consider is service. (within a warranty or outside of warranty). Try to get any kind of service with Keithley / Tektronix is a horrible experience, to say the least. If it comes to service alone, I would never buy a Keithley / Tektronix instrument again.

I will second this statement.  It is unlikely I will choose Keithley/Tek in the future, service (and new product follow-up) is just plain horrible.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dr.diesel on October 30, 2017, 12:13:41 pm
That is why its so frustrating that the 7510 autozero firmware problem has not been solved. Also the interface is still buggy (my latest success in crashing it involved using temperature secondary measurement). So there is no clear winner.

Even more annoying is that I believe they are simply ignoring the AZ issue.

FW 1.6.4c is better, but I also still experience lock-up issues.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 30, 2017, 12:42:14 pm
How linear are the 34460,61,65 and 70 adc? I read on 65,70 brochure that they are 0.5ppm.Keithley 7510 datasheet shows 1ppm + 1ppm of range.

1. What is adc linearity of 34460?
2. What is adc linearity of 34461?
3. What is adc linearity of 34465?
4. What is adc linearity of 34470?
5. What is this "1ppm +1ppm of range"? I dont understand it,how is it different to just 2ppm linearity?

edit: I found another brochure,this one is from Testequity and it says 61 = 2ppm,65 = 1ppm,70 = 0.5ppm
Interesting,I thought they 65 and 70 have same adc,I tought only difference is that 70 have ltz1000,correct me if I am wrong but voltage reference doesnt have anything to do with adc linearity?

http://www.testequity.com/documents/pdf/keysight/34461A-34465A-34470A-ad.pdf (http://www.testequity.com/documents/pdf/keysight/34461A-34465A-34470A-ad.pdf)

34460 isnt mentioned there,what is its linearity?


I determined the linearity on two 34465A, and on one 34470A (from HighVoltage): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/msg889219/#msg889219 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/msg889219/#msg889219), and found no obvious difference between both models, apart from the reference.

Usually, the integral linearity is defined as the maximum deviation from a straight line (measurement compensated for offset and gain errors), related to full scale.
The datasheet parameter is therefore 1ppm of 10V for all models, whereas the 'ppm of reading' is not so clear.

Anyhow, all 3 instruments were well below the specified limits.
The 34460A is specified identical to the 461A.

Frank


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Tom45 on October 31, 2017, 01:30:39 am
For those that did a warmup test of the Keysight meters, was the test from a cold start (plug it in), or from a warm start (in standby for some time and then turned on)?

Does the 7510 have a standby mode like the Keysight meters?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on October 31, 2017, 10:03:12 am
For those that did a warmup test of the Keysight meters, was the test from a cold start (plug it in), or from a warm start (in standby for some time and then turned on)?

Does the 7510 have a standby mode like the Keysight meters?


The Keysight meters (DMM) all do NOT have a standby mode!
The new ones do have a SW switch only, instead of a mechanical mains switch.
So even if the StandBy LED is lit, they are completely cold inside.

The initial drift in the first about 1/2 - 2h (depending on your stability criterion) is caused mainly by warming up of the resistor networks, but NOT of the voltage references.
The ovens of both the LM399H, and also the LTZ1000A warm up within 15 .. 30sec, and the output of the (more complex) LTZ1000 circuit is stable to < 1ppm within about 10 min.
See also my latest contribution in the 'Ultra Precision Reference  LTZ1000' thread.

Frank

PS: I attached a warm-up curve of an LTZ1000 module, running at about 50°C.
The output really settles within less 10 minuntes, so that should not be the problem in the 34470A, even if this reference is cooked at 90°C.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dr.diesel on October 31, 2017, 11:00:43 am
Does the 7510 have a standby mode like the Keysight meters?

The 7510 doesn't either.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Tom45 on October 31, 2017, 01:20:08 pm

The Keysight meters (DMM) all do NOT have a standby mode!
The new ones do have a SW switch only, instead of a mechanical mains switch.
So even if the StandBy LED is lit, they are completely cold inside.

Interesting. The Keysight manual refers to it as standby mode. What is the point of doing it the way they do?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on October 31, 2017, 01:41:37 pm

Interesting. The Keysight manual refers to it as standby mode. What is the point of doing it the way they do?
No benefit that I have found. Except the Keysight is showing a little yellow light, so you know the mains is plugged in.

Cold with unplugged mains or in standby, the boot-time and warmup-time does not make a difference on both instruments.

Boot-Times:
- Keithley DMM7510:  10 seconds
- Keysight 34470A:    19 seconds

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: fonograph on November 01, 2017, 05:39:43 am
Can someone make that warm up graph with 3458 please?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: maxwell3e10 on November 01, 2017, 03:04:27 pm
I am curious why warm-up and start-up time are important in your application? Or is it just a measure of general temperature sensitivity?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: fonograph on November 01, 2017, 04:58:59 pm
I am curious why warm-up and start-up time are important in your application? Or is it just a measure of general temperature sensitivity?

Becose I like to turn off my multimeter completly when I am done using it.Its big deal if I have to wait half hour every time I turn it on,especialy when 7510 exist that gets ready in 60 seconds.

Its not so much important,its more like I want to know the truth about how these instruments act,how they work,what to expect.Imagine that I have multimeter that warms up in 1 minute but I dont use it till 30 minutes after start becose I expect it to be still warming up,thats bad becose it waste time and electricity,or imagine I start using multimeter 1 minute after start and get bad readings becose I am not aware its warming up long time,knowing exact warm up behavior of the multimeter is is in my opinion good thing to know.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: nctnico on November 01, 2017, 05:05:50 pm
It is not just the reference but the rest of the equipment needs to warm up as well. If you want to do really accurate measurements you'll need to wait until the test leads reach thermal equilibrium too. From what I have seen most test equipment needs about 30 minutes warm up time to meet the accuracy specs.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Someone on November 01, 2017, 10:40:21 pm
I am curious why warm-up and start-up time are important in your application? Or is it just a measure of general temperature sensitivity?

Becose I like to turn off my multimeter completly when I am done using it.Its big deal if I have to wait half hour every time I turn it on,especialy when 7510 exist that gets ready in 60 seconds.

Its not so much important,its more like I want to know the truth about how these instruments act,how they work,what to expect.Imagine that I have multimeter that warms up in 1 minute but I dont use it till 30 minutes after start becose I expect it to be still warming up,thats bad becose it waste time and electricity,or imagine I start using multimeter 1 minute after start and get bad readings becose I am not aware its warming up long time,knowing exact warm up behavior of the multimeter is is in my opinion good thing to know.
What absolute measurements are you making of that accuracy? Most devices under test themselves will need time to thermally soak before they are stable enough to have the meter dominate the error.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on November 22, 2017, 10:23:42 am
Hello Fonograph
Sorry, I dont have a Keysight 34465A (not yet) but I compared here a 34461A (LM399) with a 34470A (LTZ1000). And there is almost no difference in warmup time.

- 34461A, increase of 210 mV during 30 min warmup
- 34470A, increase of 172 mV during 30 min warmup

So, I would suspect the 34465A to be in the same range.

OK, now I have a new Keysight 34465A, (made and calibrated in 2016).
And here I did a fresh comparison of the warmup-time for three instruments.
Interestingly the 34465A needs about the same time as the 34470A but the graph looks a little different.

It seems that 30 min warmup is not enough for the Keysight instruments and they really need one hour to stabilize completely. And the Keithley 7510 is almost stable after only 3 min.

Here are the graphs from today.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 02:36:34 pm
Hi all folks.

In the past weeks I had to take a ton of measurement from my 34465A and I needed a fast and convenient method to store both screenshots and csv data. So I wrote a small C# program that use socket for connectivity (completely driverless) that I like to share.
It should work with both 34465A and 34470A, I tested it on WIN 7 64bit and it downloads 2Mpts in just 35 seconds. As a bonus I've added a few graph tweaking tools like deleting points and adding calibration factors for use with shunts and other stuff.
Please let me know if I have to change something.

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on November 22, 2017, 04:07:42 pm
It should work with both 34465A and 34470A, I tested it on WIN 7 64bit and it downloads 2Mpts in just 35 seconds. As a bonus I've added a few graph tweaking tools like deleting points and adding calibration factors for use with shunts and other stuff.

Please let me know if I have to change something.

Best,
0xfede

Hello Oxfede
Your program works really well
I just entered my instrument IP address, and it worked.
Nice and easy.
I like it as well, that I can copy the image to the clipboard, well made

I would like the following change:
Somehow I don't like the instrument serial number shown on top of the data screen
May be you can add in the "settings", if the serial number will be shown or not or may be, give the instrument a name instead of the serial number.

Otherwise it will work perfectly for such a task of quickly collecting data.
Thanks so much for sharing this.

Here I tested a 10V Reference
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 04:33:49 pm
Thanks for your feedback HighVoltage.
As you requested I added the 'Display Serial Number' checkbox in settings.

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on November 22, 2017, 05:16:01 pm
Wow, you are quick!
Thanks

Just a few more suggestions:
1. How about also a check in the settings for time and date (Sometimes I don't want it shown)
2. And time instead of "6-08-01" in 24h: "18:08:01"
3. And date instead of "11_22_2017" in "22.11.2017"
4. And may be make the x-axis more clear of the unit meaning, may be choosing sec, min, h?

BTW, your little program is faster than BenchVue!
And I don't need the IOLib installed, runs on my work laptop under Win7
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on November 22, 2017, 05:24:41 pm
0xfede

Your program works perfectly on both of my 34470A but not on the 34465A and not on the 34461A
May be you can extend it to those instruments as well?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Messtechniker on November 22, 2017, 05:32:50 pm
BTW, your little program is faster than BenchVue!

That doesn't take much >:D
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 05:35:32 pm
Thanks again HighVoltage.
I originally wrote this program because BenchVue is not fast enough for me. And also I don't like the fact that along with LXI instruments application comes installed a tons of bloatware, DLL, unknown module, License manager and so on.

While your first request is perfectly doable I've a problem with the other three that needs to be solved differentely.
The graph header is the suggested save name when you export csv and thats exclude ':' as eligible character. The reason for this choice is that I've to make a lot of captures, store and process them on another machine and I don't want to name each file.
For the X axis right now I'm not acquiring the Aperture Time from the instrument so the displayed value is just the sample number. Of course I can find the command to retrieve that.
Let me know what you prefer for time and date.


0xfede
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 05:40:11 pm
0xfede

Your program works perfectly on both of my 34470A but not on the 34465A and not on the 34461A
May be you can extend it to those instruments as well?


That's strange since I developed this program for my 34465A. Do you have an error? Which firmware version is running?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Messtechniker on November 22, 2017, 05:52:29 pm
Thanks for the hard work.
Works nicely with my 34465A.

However, the screen print is not complete. See pic.
Even so, the saved pic is complete. OK for now.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 06:07:17 pm
Thanks for the hard work.
Works nicely with my 34465A.

However, the screen print is not complete. See pic.
Even so, the saved pic is complete. OK for now.

Thank you Messtechniker.
The reason for the cropped image is because your pc is configured with the old (pre XP) scheme. I've added zoom-stretch feature to the picture viewer so it should not happen again. I'll release this version when I'll finish a few other fixes.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on November 22, 2017, 06:16:16 pm
On my 34461A firmware A.02.14-02.40-02.14-00.49-01-01 I Get the following dialog box:

[Connection error]
"Unknown Device:
 Agilent
 Technologies, 34461A  MY5320xxxx A.02.14-02.40-02.14-00.49-01-01"

I hope this can point you to the right part of your program, so you can resolve this little glitch ;-)

Johan-Fredrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 06:30:10 pm
On my 34461A firmware A.02.14-02.40-02.14-00.49-01-01 I Get the following dialog box:

[Connection error]
"Unknown Device:
 Agilent
 Technologies, 34461A  MY5320xxxx A.02.14-02.40-02.14-00.49-01-01"

I hope this can point you to the right part of your program, so you can resolve this little glitch ;-)

Johan-Fredrik

Thank you LA7SJA, I'm implementing the solution.
The problem is simply the fact that I'm looking for a Keysight and you have an Agilent  :P
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 06:38:04 pm
So I've implemented almost all the fixes and enanchements. I cannot find the SCPI command for getting the Aperture time (I'm tired) and I really appreciate if someone kindly points me in the right direction.


Best,
0xfede

PS: I messed up when changing the attachment, if you still have the Agilent bug please download the archive again.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on November 22, 2017, 07:20:49 pm
I can now download any number of empty sample values (read absolute 0), but the error message is gone. Do I need to put the instrument in a different view mode? I have the same reading in 2W, 4W, Volt DC and Volt AC, what am I doing wrong? The number of samples is according to the time since last download.

Johan-Fredrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 07:35:41 pm
I can now download any number of empty sample values (read absolute 0), but the error message is gone. Do I need to put the instrument in a different view mode? I have the same reading in 2W, 4W, Volt DC and Volt AC, what am I doing wrong? The number of samples is according to the time since last download.

Johan-Fredrik

Nope, the sw should work without any hassle and I'm sure that the problem is something different between 34465A and 34461A. I need the export of a failed download.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on November 22, 2017, 07:44:34 pm
0xfede

Thanks for the improvements!
It works now on the Keysight 34465A and the Agilent 34461A.
However, I am getting an error "error caused by remote command" when downloading data the first time from the 34461A.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 07:53:27 pm
Thanks HighVoltage, you have spotted LA7SJA problem.
It turns out that 34461A does not accept the FORM:DATA command while both 34465A and 34470A does.
I'll look for a solution and let you know.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on November 22, 2017, 07:59:43 pm
I just sent you a link to my export csv file, the file is seemingly correct (Measuring a 5V ref.) but the program only read 0 (zero) even when reading back the export file.

Johan-Fredrik

[file.csv]
+4.99985962E+00
+4.99985788E+00
+4.99985917E+00
+4.99985540E+00
+4.99985345E+00
[EOF]
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 08:13:40 pm
Attached the new version with the FORM:DATA removed for the 34461A limitation.

I just sent you a link to my export csv file, the file is seemingly correct (Measuring a 5V ref.) but the program only read 0 (zero) even when reading back the export file.

Johan-Fredrik

It's strange, I can open your file and display a graph without problems. If this update doesn't fix the problem we'll continue tomorrow.

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on November 22, 2017, 08:59:24 pm
If I change the region to Netherland it sort of works but it shows volts 4999... and not +4.999. This smells like C# automagic import number string Voodoo. Sorry if I can't help you any more but you should be able to change region to Norway or Sweden..... and test. There are many undocumented "features" in the C# metodes that uses the Region/Language settings when converting numbers to strings and strings to numbers and even reading .csv files I m used to write my own import, export and conversion rutines.

Johan-Fredrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HKJ on November 22, 2017, 09:08:29 pm
Is that the usual problem with decimal separator that is either , or . depending on country. If the program makes CSV files it also has to be aware of the windows delimiter settings that is , or ; depending on country.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 09:36:26 pm
Modified with the culture forced to CultureInfo.CreateSpecificCulture("en-US").
Hope that fix the issue, please let me know.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on November 22, 2017, 09:49:24 pm
It works, and thank you for this "Modified with the culture forced to CultureInfo.CreateSpecificCulture("en-US")"

 Johan-Fredrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 22, 2017, 09:56:15 pm
It works, and thank you for this "Modified with the culture forced to CultureInfo.CreateSpecificCulture("en-US")"

 Johan-Fredrik

Glad that it worked and thanks for your alpha testing.

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Messtechniker on November 23, 2017, 10:52:29 am
After downloading the data, the trigger mode changes from "Automatic" to "Immediate".
Would it be possible to leave the DMM in the automatic mode so that it continues to collect data?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 23, 2017, 11:18:02 am
After downloading the data, the trigger mode changes from "Automatic" to "Immediate".
Would it be possible to leave the DMM in the automatic mode so that it continues to collect data?

Anytime the instrument receive the FETCh command (used to retrieve sample memory) it stops and goes in immediate trigger mode.
However if you go in settings and select "Release Instrument after download" it returns in auto mode but it clear the memory.

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: blackdog on November 23, 2017, 02:17:15 pm
Hi 0xfede,

Tested your software on one of my 34461A DMM's and it works!  :-DD
Sometimes its crashes and probely it has someting to do with the function "Release instrument after download" half of the time does not work properly.
Also the pictureviewer is not showing the hole pigture, if i save the picture and show it with Irfanview, than its OK.

Thanks for the program, keep op de good work!  :D

Picture is showing my +10V LAB Reference (about +2PPM to High) the 34461A is showing about +15PPM to high
(http://www.bramcam.nl/Diversen/0xfede-34465A-Test-01.png)

Kind regards,
Blackdog
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 23, 2017, 03:41:37 pm
Hi 0xfede,

Tested your software on one of my 34461A DMM's and it works!  :-DD
Sometimes its crashes and probely it has someting to do with the function "Release instrument after download" half of the time does not work properly.
Also the pictureviewer is not showing the hole pigture, if i save the picture and show it with Irfanview, than its OK.

Thanks for the program, keep op de good work!  :D

....................

Kind regards,
Blackdog


Hi blackdog, may I ask you to send a command via telnet and check if throw an error?
The command is:
SYSTem:LOCal

Thanks,
0xfede
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: blackdog on November 23, 2017, 05:02:03 pm
Hi 0xfede,


This command gives a error on the instruments display: SYSTem:LOCal

SYST:LAB "Koffie met Koek" wil give the picture below and the "error" on the display is visible, the SYST:LAB workt normaly, after the error message appeared.
(http://www.bramcam.nl/Diversen/461-2.png)

But sometimes i get this eror message and error message 113, Undefined header
(http://www.bramcam.nl/Diversen/461-3.png)

It is not clear for me, why there is sometimes a error message on the screen.
I cant put my finger on it.

But wait...
Clicking a few times on the Download Data button gives a error!
Camera screenshot
(http://www.bramcam.nl/Diversen/461-4.png)


I hope this helps a little...

Kind regards,
Bram
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 23, 2017, 05:19:18 pm
Thank you again blackdog.
So this command is also not supported on the 34461A and I can't use it for releasing the instrument from remote mode.
I'll figure out a trick for that. In the meantime do not use the release instrument after download feature.

Best,
0xfede
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on November 23, 2017, 06:27:34 pm
I regret to inform you that the "release instrument after download" feature works perfect on my
34461A A.02.14-02.40-02.14-00.49-01-01 (latest firmware)
22.11.2017  22:32            43 008 KEYSIGHT DMM plot.exe
28.08.2014  13:56           296 448 ZedGraph.dll

Johan-Fredrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 23, 2017, 06:44:11 pm
I regret to inform you that the "release instrument after download" feature works perfect on my
34461A A.02.14-02.40-02.14-00.49-01-01 (latest firmware)
22.11.2017  22:32            43 008 KEYSIGHT DMM plot.exe
28.08.2014  13:56           296 448 ZedGraph.dll

Johan-Fredrik

But still the command fails on blackdog instrument. Maybe the issue is related to a particular firmware version?
Nevertheless I'm attaching a new version with various fixes and a few addon.

Best,
0xfede

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LA7SJA on November 23, 2017, 07:30:02 pm
The release after download only works from [Download Data] and not [Download Screenshot] but the latest version now have full screenshot on screen.
Telnet on port 5024 or 5025 when testing commands?

Johan-Fredrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: blackdog on November 23, 2017, 08:10:09 pm
Hi,

Nice, PictureViewer shows the hole picture before saving the picture!

Just another picture to show my thanks  ;D
(http://www.bramcam.nl/Diversen/461-6.png)

Kind regards,
Bram
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 23, 2017, 08:44:37 pm
The release after download only works from [Download Data] and not [Download Screenshot] but the latest version now have full screenshot on screen.
Telnet on port 5024 or 5025 when testing commands?

Johan-Fredrik

The release after download function is only on download data since it clears the memory buffer. I know this is not elegant but this is the only way to download both picture and data. Maybe we should think a different approach? I'm open to suggestion :)
Telnet is on port 5024 as for the majority of Keysight products.

Hi,

Nice, PictureViewer shows the hole picture before saving the picture!

Just another picture to show my thanks  ;D
......

Kind regards,
Bram

Glad that you like it!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Messtechniker on November 24, 2017, 06:05:39 am
I'm open to suggestion :)

Reading the memory like in your program is basically a good idea, in particular when
wanting to save data after a measurement run has been completed.

Maybe you would want to log the data into your graph in real time (i.e. full remote control)
by sending the command "Read?" to the 3446x every second and recording its response.
This would give you control over the timebase. My Profilab program does this. But this program
can only communicate via a virtual COM port on the PC since this program does not offer a ready made
tcp communication module.  :(.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on November 24, 2017, 06:42:52 am
I'm open to suggestion :)

Reading the memory like in your program is basically a good idea, in particular when
wanting to save data after a measurement run has been completed.

Maybe you would want to log the data into your graph in real time (i.e. full remote control)
by sending the command "Read?" to the 3446x every second and recording its response.
This would give you control over the timebase. My Profilab program does this. But this program
can only communicate via a virtual COM port on the PC since this program does not offer a ready made
tcp communication module.  :(.

It's a nice suggestion (and a lot of work). I don't know when I will have enough time to do that but if you are patient...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: BVH on January 04, 2018, 05:16:30 am
I just sold my 34461A and want to replace it with the 34465A.  Is there a preferred authorized dealer to go through and are there any discounts that anybody is aware of.  Any other buying tips?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kj7e on January 04, 2018, 05:55:41 am
Bought mine from Newark, but had some issues with the transaction and was rather dissatisfied in the end.  Love the meter, but not in a hurry to buy anything from Newark again.  I could not find a discount when I bought mine, still not seeing anyone offering a discount.  If I was going to buy this now, I would look here;
https://www.alliedelec.com/keysight-technologies-34465a/70518011/ (https://www.alliedelec.com/keysight-technologies-34465a/70518011/)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 04, 2018, 08:53:39 am
May be this is a good deal out of Korea?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Keysight-34465A-Digital-Multimeter-6-Digit-Truevolt-DMM-Opt-GPB/253343138391?hash=item3afc6d8257:g:Bk8AAOSwhqhaTFmF (https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Keysight-34465A-Digital-Multimeter-6-Digit-Truevolt-DMM-Opt-GPB/253343138391?hash=item3afc6d8257:g:Bk8AAOSwhqhaTFmF)

New! Keysight 34465A Digital Multimeter, 6½ Digit,
34410A/34411A replacement, Truevolt DMM - Opt: GPB

Key Features
New in box, working condition(Not used)
3/26/2021   Return to Keysight Warranty - 3 years - 12/24/0 months   RTK Repair


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: BVH on January 04, 2018, 11:35:40 am
I bought the 61a from TEquipment but it looks like they stopped carrying any Keysight products.  With the Korea unit, they want $120 shipping which brings it up to and a little beyond the US price.  I buy items from Allied so I trust them.  Will continue to look for a bit longer so more good finds would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JonM on January 05, 2018, 02:14:58 am
I am going to buy a 34465A at some point. If the move from Windows CE happens and/or the free extra memory promotion comes back I will probably buy right away. I assume that any unit will be upgradeable to a new OS, but it would be nice to not have any worries.

A few days ago I filled out some Keysight form to get a document. I said that I would buy in the next 0-3 months and specified TestEquity as my preferred vendor. This afternoon I got a call from Newark/Element14 asking if I needed a demo or was ready to buy now. I told the saleswoman that I am not ready yet and mentioned that I saw a 5% discount when I put a 34465A in my cart with the Black Friday code. I asked her if I could get that 5% anytime or was it just because of the sale. She would not commit to anything but suggested that she might be able do something when I ask for a quote.

TestEquity gave me 5% off on a Keysight scope and also went out of their way on an Agilent trade-in so I am inclined to buy the DMM from them as well. I expect them to call sometime in the next few days.

Note that all Keysight distributors I have checked collect sales tax in almost all states, so if you live in a US state with sales tax the 5% will help cover that.  In any case, the first thing to do when you are serious is to ask for a quote, 5% might just be the standard discount.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: BVH on January 05, 2018, 03:17:44 pm
Just to follow up.  I, too, requested some quotes from the Keysight sellers page.  I originally received boiler plate responses all looking the same, all at list price with no indication of tax and shipping charges.  I sent replies to all of them asking about the missing items.  I didn't wait very long before I just decided to order from Newark.  Well, I should have waited another half-day.  One at a time, I then received vendor-specific quotes showing the meter, shipping, tax and discount line items.  At least three of them, including Transcat, showed about $100 off, down around $1250.  But they all included BenchVue at a $250 or so price.  If I hadn't already purchased, I'd have contacted them to remove BenchVue and find out if the discount still applied.  I jumped the gun.  So it looks like the meter can possibly be had for about $100 off.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Tom45 on January 05, 2018, 03:25:47 pm
I just sold my 34461A and want to replace it with the 34465A.  Is there a preferred authorized dealer to go through and are there any discounts that anybody is aware of.  Any other buying tips?

When the 34465a was first announced, I filled in a form on Keysight's web site requesting a quote. It was new enough that few places had stock. I found that Newark had a few and I bought from them at full list price.

A week or so later I got an email from a distributor that I recognized, but unfortunately don't remember their name now. Their price was lower by $100 or so than the price I had already paid at Newark. That email probably was due to Keysight forwarding my quote request. You might try that to see what shows up.

Edit: I see that BVH had the same thing happen. A little patience can save some money.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: BVH on January 05, 2018, 03:42:06 pm
Update 2:  Newark indicated that they provided same day shipping on the meter.  Well, it still hadn't shipped as this morning so I called and cancelled the order.  I replied to the Transcat quote asking if I can buy only the meter at the $1251.90 price.  Will see what happens.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: BVH on January 05, 2018, 09:40:30 pm
I didn't get a response from Transcat yet but when I got home, a general email from Transcat was waiting and it provided a coupon code for 10% off.  So I used it and got free shipping to boot.  Tax was charged.  With free shipping, I probably saved about $180.00

I was originally going to send in my 34461A for calibration but figured I'd put the funds into a new meter that would arrive in-calibration.  So all told after selling my 61A, I was able to get a new, higher-end meter, in calibration and warranty for right around $600.00  I feel pretty good about it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on January 06, 2018, 12:46:11 am
TestEquity gave me 5% off on a Keysight scope and also went out of their way on an Agilent trade-in so I am inclined to buy the DMM from them as well. I expect them to call sometime in the next few days.
I've had good experience with TestEquity, and bought my 34465A from them.  Ask for 10% off MSRP.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JonM on January 06, 2018, 01:25:05 am
TestEquity gave me 5% off on a Keysight scope and also went out of their way on an Agilent trade-in so I am inclined to buy the DMM from them as well. I expect them to call sometime in the next few days.
I've had good experience with TestEquity, and bought my 34465A from them.  Ask for 10% off MSRP.

Great tip on the 10%. I got an email offer from TesEquity today for the 2018 Keysight calendar. I filled out the form indicating that I was interested in buying a 34465A. Maybe that will trigger a call. The sales engineer used to call me occasionally but I have not heard from him for a while. Maybe it is because I moved to a different region.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: EEngo on January 20, 2018, 01:25:15 pm
Thank you very much for this little software! It is very helpful, thanks for sharing!  8) :-+ :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: 0xfede on January 20, 2018, 04:47:09 pm
Thank you EEngo for your compliments.

Mach's gut,
Fede
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JonM on March 29, 2018, 03:04:39 am
TestEquity gave me 5% off on a Keysight scope and also went out of their way on an Agilent trade-in so I am inclined to buy the DMM from them as well. I expect them to call sometime in the next few days.
I've had good experience with TestEquity, and bought my 34465A from them.  Ask for 10% off MSRP.

Great tip on the 10%. I got an email offer from TesEquity today for the 2018 Keysight calendar. I filled out the form indicating that I was interested in buying a 34465A. Maybe that will trigger a call. The sales engineer used to call me occasionally but I have not heard from him for a while. Maybe it is because I moved to a different region.

Today I ordered the 34465A with DIG & MEM options. I got the 10% off just by asking for a quote. I told them to not install the options just in case a Free MEM promotion appears and I can return the license. However, since they seem to be getting only batches of 35 meters, and I am in the second upcoming batch, there is probably no reason for a promotion at this point. I will probably not get delivery until mid-April. It will be a race between the 121GW and 34465A...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on March 29, 2018, 05:37:00 am
TestEquity gave me 5% off on a Keysight scope and also went out of their way on an Agilent trade-in so I am inclined to buy the DMM from them as well. I expect them to call sometime in the next few days.
I've had good experience with TestEquity, and bought my 34465A from them.  Ask for 10% off MSRP.

Great tip on the 10%. I got an email offer from TesEquity today for the 2018 Keysight calendar. I filled out the form indicating that I was interested in buying a 34465A. Maybe that will trigger a call. The sales engineer used to call me occasionally but I have not heard from him for a while. Maybe it is because I moved to a different region.

Today I ordered the 34465A with DIG & MEM options. I got the 10% off just by asking for a quote. I told them to not install the options just in case a Free MEM promotion appears and I can return the license. However, since they seem to be getting only batches of 35 meters, and I am in the second upcoming batch, there is probably no reason for a promotion at this point. I will probably not get delivery until mid-April. It will be a race between the 121GW and 34465A...

You could also grab a fully optioned 34470A for nearly the same price after haggling.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-34470A-Digital-multimeter-7-1-2-digit-Truevolt-DMM-Agilent/192491189851?epid=2098135405&hash=item2cd15e765b:g:vVcAAOSw9t1athEt (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Keysight-Used-34470A-Digital-multimeter-7-1-2-digit-Truevolt-DMM-Agilent/192491189851?epid=2098135405&hash=item2cd15e765b:g:vVcAAOSw9t1athEt)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JonM on March 30, 2018, 04:51:27 am
Well, that is interesting. I had checked the Keysight eBay store several times and never saw a 34465A or 34470A.

This 34470A is $621 more than the new 34465A I have on order. Maybe I would have gone for it, but the 30 warranty is a bit worrisome, and I certainly have no need for the GPB option (I never want to use GPIB again...).

I would not expect Keysight to haggle on eBay Store prices, but maybe they do?
 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on March 30, 2018, 04:56:41 am
Well, that is interesting. I had checked the Keysight eBay store several times and never saw a 34465A or 34470A.

This 34470A is $621 more than the new 34465A I have on order. Maybe I would have gone for it, but the 30 warranty is a bit worrisome, and I certainly have no need for the GPB option (I never want to use GPIB again...).

I would not expect Keysight to haggle on eBay Store prices, but maybe they do?

They will always negotiate a little. The 34470A uses the LTZ1000A which is nice to have.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on March 30, 2018, 05:59:58 am
Well, that is interesting. I had checked the Keysight eBay store several times and never saw a 34465A or 34470A.

This 34470A is $621 more than the new 34465A I have on order. Maybe I would have gone for it, but the 30 warranty is a bit worrisome, and I certainly have no need for the GPB option (I never want to use GPIB again...).

I would not expect Keysight to haggle on eBay Store prices, but maybe they do?

They will always negotiate a little. The 34470A uses the LTZ1000A which is nice to have.

They absolutely do take offers. I have purchased several items from them, never at asking price. Based on experience, I'd be surprised if they don't give you at least 10% off.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JeffreyLatter on March 31, 2018, 12:32:00 pm
Well, that is interesting. I had checked the Keysight eBay store several times and never saw a 34465A or 34470A.

This 34470A is $621 more than the new 34465A I have on order. Maybe I would have gone for it, but the 30 warranty is a bit worrisome, and I certainly have no need for the GPB option (I never want to use GPIB again...).

I would not expect Keysight to haggle on eBay Store prices, but maybe they do?

They will always negotiate a little. The 34470A uses the LTZ1000A which is nice to have.

They absolutely do take offers. I have purchased several items from them, never at asking price. Based on experience, I'd be surprised if they don't give you at least 10% off.

I ordered one of these Ex-demo units and I got 19% off, just If anyone else is making offers on them...  :-+
Oliver said 2kUSD was absolute lowest, he could go and I tried to haggle a bit more, but no luck.

The 30days warrenty is a chance to take, but the DSOX3024T, I bought like this, haven't let me down yet and as it is ex-demo units, I'll take my chance on it and just hope it won't go  :-BROKE
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on April 01, 2018, 04:56:11 am
I certainly have no need for the GPB option (I never want to use GPIB again...).

I don't think this a 'real' option... unless they've changed something the 34465A and 34470A both come with internal GPIB whether you want it or not. :)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JonM on April 01, 2018, 05:13:07 am
I certainly have no need for the GPB option (I never want to use GPIB again...).

I don't think this a 'real' option... unless they've changed something the 34465A and 34470A both come with internal GPIB whether you want it or not. :)

No, happily, GPIB is an option for the 34465A & 34470A:

34465A-GPB   GPIB interface module for Truevolt series DMMs   US$   150

It's reasonably priced though...

My order is in, with just DIG & MEM options. I'm still hoping for another free MEM promotion so that I can return the license I am paying for.





Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JonM on April 07, 2018, 03:44:25 am
TestEquity gave me 5% off on a Keysight scope and also went out of their way on an Agilent trade-in so I am inclined to buy the DMM from them as well. I expect them to call sometime in the next few days.
I've had good experience with TestEquity, and bought my 34465A from them.  Ask for 10% off MSRP.

Great tip on the 10%. I got an email offer from TesEquity today for the 2018 Keysight calendar. I filled out the form indicating that I was interested in buying a 34465A. Maybe that will trigger a call. The sales engineer used to call me occasionally but I have not heard from him for a while. Maybe it is because I moved to a different region.

Today I ordered the 34465A with DIG & MEM options. I got the 10% off just by asking for a quote. I told them to not install the options just in case a Free MEM promotion appears and I can return the license. However, since they seem to be getting only batches of 35 meters, and I am in the second upcoming batch, there is probably no reason for a promotion at this point. I will probably not get delivery until mid-April. It will be a race between the 121GW and 34465A...

And the winner is the 34465A. It arrived today, a full week ahead of schedule. It seems that TesEquity got more delivered in the first batch. It does not look good for a free MEM promotion, but I will check one more time before installing the option keys.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on April 07, 2018, 07:47:54 am
And the winner is the 34465A. It arrived today, a full week ahead of schedule. It seems that TesEquity got more delivered in the first batch. It does not look good for a free MEM promotion, but I will check one more time before installing the option keys.
Congratulations
Another option that you might want to look in to is the DIG (Digitizing) option for the 34465A.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JonM on April 07, 2018, 02:38:30 pm
Thanks, I did get both DIG & MEM options, but since there was once a free MEM promotion that was the most that I was hoping for. I thought that during or after WAVE 2018 a promotion might appear.  Oh well....
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kj7e on April 07, 2018, 03:38:24 pm
IIRC, the free mem upgrade was prompted due to the revised max voltage spec (which was since rescinded).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: djnz on May 02, 2018, 05:42:31 am
There is a new "Modification Recommended" service note which might be relevant for some members:

http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/34465A-02.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/34465A-02.pdf)

It seems that if you do automated testing etc. there is a chance you may have already damaged your U507 and they will replace it, but otherwise, if it's not damaged already, a simple firmware upgrade is all that's needed.

Situation:
User may experience ACV out of specification when frequent function changing from other
measurement functions to ACV. This happens mostly during automated process causing the
component U507 to heat up and ACV measurement to drift out of specification.
This has been resolved in Firmware 2.17 and above.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on May 02, 2018, 05:52:15 am
The service note actually applies to the entire series - 34460A, 34461A, 34465A and 34470A.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on May 02, 2018, 06:39:46 am
That's an LM6172, a double, bipolar, high speed OpAmp.
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm6172.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm6172.pdf)
Strange, that this device might fail this way (no latch-up to be expected).

Anyhow, thanks for this heads-up, I'll check that on my unit, although it's not very probable to happen in my case.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: stainlessjimmy on September 02, 2018, 09:21:43 am
Hello,
this is my first post here, till now i was silent reader only :-)
I just wanted to let you know that Keysight has a new promotion from the beginning of september 2018 - anyone who get one of said DMMs (34465A or 34470A) will get memory option for free. So, it's back again.

Promotion code: 6.028

https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=DE&lc=ger&ckey=2990857&nid=-32051.1242959&id=2990857 (https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=DE&lc=ger&ckey=2990857&nid=-32051.1242959&id=2990857)

Regards,
Dim
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: janekivi on September 03, 2018, 07:53:17 pm
Usually this require you to buy DMM during required period,
but it is worth to try to insert your older purchase details.
And I got MEM license too one day : )
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LapTop006 on September 04, 2018, 03:54:55 am
I would not expect Keysight to haggle on eBay Store prices, but maybe they do?

They don't always accept offers, but they have at least offered a mild discount the few times I tried, albeit never enough to put me over the line.

However, I recently (~3 weeks back) bought a refurb scope from them, and they don't plan to actually ship it until early October which is annoying, particularly so given the amount of money involved.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JonM on September 04, 2018, 04:11:47 am
Hello,
this is my first post here, till now i was silent reader only :-)
I just wanted to let you know that Keysight has a new promotion from the beginning of september 2018 - anyone who get one of said DMMs (34465A or 34470A) will get memory option for free. So, it's back again.

Promotion code: 6.028

https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=DE&lc=ger&ckey=2990857&nid=-32051.1242959&id=2990857 (https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=DE&lc=ger&ckey=2990857&nid=-32051.1242959&id=2990857)

Regards,
Dim

I was going to wait until they replaced Windows CE. Then I was going to wait for this free MEM option to re-appear, however the consensus was that it would not return, so I ordered the 34465A at the end of March with DIG & MEM options. Oh well, I have at least made some minor use of the options.

I note that TestEquity has the free MEM option promotion listed now.


 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Andrew on December 11, 2018, 09:58:25 am
I posted about the new firmware release for the 3446xA/70A series in the "34461A" thread because that is what I have, however this may well be the defacto thread for the whole series?

In any case, the 34465A/70A models now get the previous "DIG" option as standard.

New firmware release v3.0 for 3446xA/34470A

Release notes: https://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-11143.0.00 (https://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-11143.0.00)

Of interest to me is: "Adds 2-wire and 4-wire support for 2.25 kΩ and 10 kΩ thermistors in addition to 5 kΩ thermistors." :-+

... and probably of more interest to 34465A/70A owners: "Beginning with Firmware revision 3.0, the digitizing and advanced triggering option (34465A-DIG/34470A-DIG/3446DIGU), is now standard" - time to upgrade?  ;D
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Kean on December 11, 2018, 10:01:32 am
I posted about the new firmware release for the 3446xA/70A series in the "34461A" thread because that is what I have, however this may well be the defacto thread for the whole series?

In any case, the 34465A/70A models now get the previous "DIG" option as standard.

Cool - I've always wanted DIG for my 34465A, but couldn't really justify buying it!  I did get MEM for free when I bought it.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Messtechniker on December 11, 2018, 01:58:04 pm
Thanks for the heads up.

....toddles off to the lab to refresh the 34465A.
(I still hate it a bit because of the fan howl).

Yes I know. I am too sensitive as to noise. |O

P.S.: update went well  :phew:. Manual not updated yet.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kj7e on December 11, 2018, 03:00:51 pm
Updated mine this morning (2.17 -> 3.0), confirmed the DIG option is now installed.  Also completed the free Memory Upgrade promotion form,  I saw nothing to indicate this was limited to purchase date or otherwise.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: janekivi on December 11, 2018, 04:22:02 pm
You know what is funny? We were talking with tv84 about new hacks
and I have here for experiments only that Rigol and couple of Siglent generators...
and 34465A. His reply was something like this:

Quote
Have you got a Keysight??  We can do that. :)

So... someone was afraid already.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: AndyC_772 on December 11, 2018, 05:19:03 pm
Cool, thanks for the heads-up. My 34465A now has MEM from an earlier promotion, and DIG from the firmware update. Glad I didn't pay good money for those options now!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on December 11, 2018, 05:29:30 pm
Thanks for this info.

The web interface now also works w/o java, a must for most of modern browsers, and the app looks and feels really cool, but is still slow (no realtime update).

I directly bought the DIG option in 2015, and the digitization with trigger functionality I used very often, mostly for current, but also for determination of LTZ1000s oven temperature.

MEM is also necessary for DIG, so lucky who now can have both for free.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JonM on December 12, 2018, 05:03:29 am
Nice, but I paid for both DIG and MEM... I have my 34465A registered on MyKeysight and have not yet received an email notification that new firmware is available. Eliminating the Java requirement is good.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on December 12, 2018, 08:13:43 am
I also had paid for the original DIG and MEM license when I bought my first 34470A. But I have a 34465A that is not licensed, so its nice to get it for free.

The extra 2.5k and 10k thermistor setting are nice, especially since it was standard in the older 34410A and 34411A instruments.

Mostly I am looking forward to see if the ACAL problem with the drift has been solved.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: LaurentR on December 13, 2018, 06:42:52 am
Yay for the HTML5 interface. That's really good news. It's a bit laggy, but usable.
Now, can we get an HTML5 interface on the 33522B  :D
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on December 13, 2018, 06:48:04 am
Yay for the HTML5 interface. That's really good news. It's a bit laggy, but usable.
Now, can we get an HTML5 interface on the 33522B  :D

That is what I am hoping for as well, and for the 532x0 counter series.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Messtechniker on December 13, 2018, 08:27:04 am
Yay for the HTML5 interface. That's really good news. It's a bit laggy, but usable.

Agreed :-+ Since I very much dislike convoluted software like Java and Benchvue :palm:, for example, I can now move my slightly noisy 34465A away from my workbench putting it on the second screen of my PC. I am delighted. :clap:. On the screen its easily twice the original size. Could make it even larger. No resolution problems here. By the way: the beep is not emulated though the speaker of the PC.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 03, 2019, 12:04:30 pm
Hello...

Received my 34470A one month plus ago but only started to use it 1~2 week ago.

I have just done a test. A Fluke 884X Short was installed on the front panel terminals. The meter has been powered up nearly 90 mins before the statistical data recording (image below) was initiated.

The calibration menu shows that the meter was calibrated in July 2018.

Is the reading is OK? Since "Auto Zero" is ON, I thought the reading should be (very close) to 000.00000.

Note: When the test was carried out, the (4m x 4m) room's aircond temperature setting was set to 18 degC, while the temperature shown on the calibration menu (besides Uptime) is around 24.1 degC.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on January 03, 2019, 12:25:50 pm
To get best accuracy you should use meter with same ambient temperature as what used during calibration (typically +23 °C).
I think your meter is fine, but to know for sure you need much more than just a short.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 03, 2019, 12:31:45 pm
My 34470A shows almost 0 for this quick test
Here is a picture of a comparison on my instrument.

You should test again at about the same temperature as per calibration certificate



Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 03, 2019, 12:54:38 pm
To get best accuracy you should use meter with same ambient temperature as what used during calibration (typically +23 °C).
I think your meter is fine, but to know for sure you need much more than just a short.

My 34470A shows almost 0 for this quick test
Here is a picture of a comparison on my instrument.

You should test again at about the same temperature as per calibration certificate

Thanks TiN and HighVoltage.

I do not have a thermometer to measure the room/ambient temperature now. I will get one soon. By the way, what is the temperature (the one keeps changing 24.0~24.2 degC) shown on the calibration menu of the meter? Is it the internal temperature of the meter?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HKJ on January 03, 2019, 01:00:42 pm

With any warmup time or ACAL:

(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf4/DSC_5032.jpg)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TiN on January 03, 2019, 01:02:25 pm
I would expect it to be just constant value stored in meter (typed in by calibration procedure step?) during the calibration, for user's convenience.
Sure manual should cover this detail with correct explanation. I don't have / never played with 34461A/65A/70A to know shenanigans related to these meters, sorry.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 03, 2019, 01:14:25 pm
I would expect it to be just constant value stored in meter (typed in by calibration procedure step?) during the calibration, for user's convenience.
Sure manual should cover this detail with correct explanation. I don't have / never played with 34461A/65A/70A to know shenanigans related to these meters, sorry.

I switched off the room's aircond and after nearly 10 mins the temperature shown on calibration menu changed from 24.2 to 25.2 degC. The new statistical data (after switching off aircond) is shown below.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 03, 2019, 02:16:17 pm
The temperature (shown on the calibration menu) which I referred to in my previous posts was taken from the menu in image below (copied from manual pp. 148). The temperature is not fixed but changing. After switching off the room aircond for one hour plus, the temperature is 27 degC now. The latest statistical data recorded in given below, now it's approaching 000.00003...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on January 03, 2019, 03:16:42 pm
Hello...

Received my 34470A one month plus ago but only started to use it 1~2 week ago.

I have just done a test. A Fluke 884X Short was installed on the front panel terminals. The meter has been powered up nearly 90 mins before the statistical data recording (image below) was initiated.

The calibration menu shows that the meter was calibrated in July 2018.

Is the reading is OK? Since "Auto Zero" is ON, I thought the reading should be (very close) to 000.00000.

Note: When the test was carried out, the (4m x 4m) room's aircond temperature setting was set to 18 degC, while the temperature shown on the calibration menu (besides Uptime) is around 24.1 degC.

Hello and Welcome to the forum!

At first, this deep cooling in buildings in Malaysia and also in Singapore is always a torture for non - residents (like me), but also for analogue precision instruments and metrology processes.  ;D

The calibration process is done at about 23°C, even @ Keysight in Malaysia, where your instrument might have been calibrated (see your cal certificate).
Highest uncertainty is achieved only at this calibration temperature. Otherwise, correction calculations using T.C.s apply.

If you have a look into the manual, chapter about calibration, first thing calibrated are the offsets of all modes, especially DCV, DCI, Ohm.
They use a low e.m.f., low ohm short to mitigate thermal voltages at the input jacks, but this calibration involves all (solder) junctions inside the instrument as well. See also this lengthy thread somewhere here, about DIY shorts.

e.m.f. voltages of several µV can occur all the time, even at 'normal' lab temperatures, e.g. by using lab grade cables, but that can be mitigated by using the NULL function, before making the real measurement. That does not affect the calibration of the instrument, but increases the precision of the measurements.

The gain constants (Full Scale) are also calibrated at ~23°C, and might out of specification, if you use the instrument @ these usual Malaysian temperatures.
Even the '470A has a T.C. specification including its internal LTZ1000A reference, of about 2ppm/°C...
18°C room temperature is just at the edge of the usual lab temperature, maybe additional 10 ppm gain error.

The 34465/470 have an ACAL function, which reduces this gain error at other temperatures to some amount (see manual), but it can't correct for these internal e.m.f. errors.. again that's what the NULL function is for..

In summary, these offsets you see @ 18°C are perfectly fine, and no sign of defect or mis-calibration.

I suggest to prepare a special lab room at 23 +/- 2 °C.

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: bson on January 04, 2019, 01:05:34 am
Somewhat tangential, but I often wish I could null my 34465A to the statistical average of a run, rather than take a new measurement.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: djnz on January 04, 2019, 03:02:12 am
Again a bit of a tangent, but firmware version 3.0 now includes the digitizing and advanced trigger (former option DIG) as standard.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 04, 2019, 11:34:40 am
I had my 34465A running over night with a short block on the input.
Here is the histogram for comparison.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 07, 2019, 04:19:20 am
I had my 34465A running over night with a short block on the input.
Here is the histogram for comparison.
Hi HighVoltage,

The histogram of your 34465A is really nice. Before starting collecting the samples for the histogram, how long has the 34465A been powered (warmed) up?

Thanks
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 07, 2019, 08:10:30 am
Hello dmm2018

This 34465A was turned ON for about 24h, before I started the data collection for the histogram


Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 07, 2019, 08:46:39 am
Hello dmm2018

This 34465A was turned ON for about 24h, before I started the data collection for the histogram

Thanks HighVoltage...

I tried to produce a similar histogram plot for my 34470A. I found it's not easy to obtain such a nice bell-shape curve for my unit. I noted that the different orientation (rotated 10-30 degree) of 34470A will affect and shift the mean of the histogram plot quite obviously.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 07, 2019, 01:33:15 pm
If you have your 34470A ON for a few hours and the temperature will not change much, you should get a very similar bell curve.

OK, I will do the test again with one of my 34470A over night and see the results tomorrow.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 10, 2019, 02:46:18 pm
These data were taken over about 24 h on one of my 34470A with a shortage block across all 4 input connectors.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: splin on January 12, 2019, 03:30:42 pm
The 34470A noise is double that of the 34465A which is a bit surprising - were they using the same NPLC/filtering/AZ settings? What were the settings?

How come the 34470A is only showing 6 1/2 Digits?

If they were using the same settings then I wonder if the noise difference is normal variance between instruments - I expect the 34465A and 34470A will have the same front end and ADC,  the main difference being the reference (and the price!)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 12, 2019, 08:56:22 pm
Both, the 34470A and the 34465A were set to ...
Aperture: 10 PLC
Auto Zero: ON
Input Z: 10 MOhm
I use the same short block on both

I will repeat the test and do both instruments at the same time and also record the room temperature
May be I will add a 34461A for comparison as well.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HKJ on January 14, 2019, 02:53:40 pm
I also tried letting my 34465A/34470A warm up, do a ACAL and then histogram over 24 hours. Except for histogram settings all parameters are default on the meters.

(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf4/DSC_5321.jpg)

Large size: http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf4/DSC_5321a.jpg (http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf4/DSC_5321a.jpg)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: splin on January 15, 2019, 12:07:11 am
From the 34465A and 34470A specs the noise adder for 1NPLC is 1ppm of range + .5uV = 6ppm for the 100mV range = 600nV

At 10NPLC the expected RMS noise would be 600/sqrt(10) = 190nV. That compares to:

34470Admm2018  136nV
34465AHKJ  180nV
34470AHKJ  200nV
34465AHighVoltage    80nV
34470AHighVoltage  190nV

So most are pretty close to the spec except HighVoltage's '65A which is surprisingly good.

[EDIT] FWIW The 3458A equivalent spec is 54nV - the difference  being mostly due to the ADC.

I estimate the 34470A's input amplifier is approx 4X noisier and the the ADC is around 14X noiser.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: eplpwr on January 16, 2019, 08:27:02 am
How come the 34470A is only showing 6 1/2 Digits?
On the 100 mV range, 34470A defaults to 6 1/2 digits. You can manually change this to 7 1/2 digits with "Digit Mask" button in DCV mode, which also results in an additional digit of resolution in the statistics window (Avg, Stddev et al).
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 16, 2019, 09:46:22 am
OK, repeated the histogram noise test on 4 instruments at the same time over night.
The temperature span was about 1 degree.
Since I only have one good short block, I used a single short cable on the voltage input of all instruments.

It seems the test results from earlier are repeatable.
I am not sure why my 34465A has such little noise, compared to the two 34470A's

All standard settings, 10 NPLC

1. Room temperature measurement with 5k thermistor on a 34461A
2. Noise 34461A    = 130 nV StdDev
3. Noise 34465A    = 100 nV StdDev
4. Noise 34470A-1 = 160 nV StdDev
5. Noise 34470A-2 = 130 nV StdDev



Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 17, 2019, 01:41:08 pm

The calibration process is done at about 23°C, even @ Keysight in Malaysia, where your instrument might have been calibrated (see your cal certificate).
Highest uncertainty is achieved only at this calibration temperature. Otherwise, correction calculations using T.C.s apply.

Frank

Today installed BenchVue and tried retrieving the "temperature of last calibration" (as described on pp. 242 of 34460-90901 Operating and Service Guide) using the following SCPI command:

CALibration:TEMPerature?
Returns the temperature of the last calibration in °C.

The returned temperature of last calibration of my Keysight 34470A (L) is 25.41 °C.

According to the Certificate Of Calibration, I think the meter was calibrated @ Keysight (Malaysia). Is it normal that the Keysight 34470A was calibrated at 25.41 °C?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: e61_phil on January 17, 2019, 01:43:50 pm
25.41°C would be the internal temperature and not the lab temperature
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: maxwell3e10 on January 17, 2019, 02:06:34 pm
It maybe interesting to repeat this test on 100 NPLC setting. There are some data from OldNeurons on TiN's website that suggest that 34461A is better than 34465A/34470A on 100 mV scale and 100 NPLC.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 17, 2019, 02:16:01 pm
25.41°C would be the internal temperature and not the lab temperature

Thank you e61_phil.

If 25.41°C is the internal temperature, I guess the lab temperature (ambient temperature) should be lower than 25.41°C.

I note that the temperature readings shown on the Cal menu of the meter keep changing (see below). If I adjust my room aircond temperature setting until the "Temperature change from last calibration" = 0°C, is it ok to guess/tell that the ambient temperature of my room is now equal (or very close to) to the ambient temperature of the Keysight Cal lab when the meter was calibrated at the Keysight Cal lab?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight_s-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=625822)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 17, 2019, 02:35:38 pm
Wished to access the built-in Web Interface of my 34470A via a Web browser. My Web browser (Google Chrome, Version 71) has no problem to access the page shown below. However, when I clicked the "Instrument Monitor and Control" tab (the 2nd tab, see below), an error message popped up: "Java not detected".

I followed the troubleshooting steps described at the following Keysight site: https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=MY&lc=eng&ckey=2573860&nid=-11143.0.00&id=2573860 (https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=MY&lc=eng&ckey=2573860&nid=-11143.0.00&id=2573860) but still cannot solve the problem.

My OS is Windows 7 (32-bit).
Java version 8 is installed.

Kindly advise.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight_s-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=625831)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HKJ on January 17, 2019, 02:52:35 pm
Is it a old firmware version, my meter looks different and I can select a HTML5 control that works. It do also have a Java applet, but it states that Java applets are not supported in Chrome.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: JDubU on January 17, 2019, 02:54:52 pm
Some info on Java applets in Chrome:

https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/chrome.xml (https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/chrome.xml)
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 17, 2019, 03:07:00 pm
Is it a old firmware version, my meter looks different and I can select a HTML5 control that works. It do also have a Java applet, but it states that Java applets are not supported in Chrome.

Thank you HKJ.

Later when I tested with IE-11, it works !!!

Then checked the firmware version. Yes, it's an old firmware: A.02.06. I borrowed this unit from a friend.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 17, 2019, 03:11:34 pm
It maybe interesting to repeat this test on 100 NPLC setting. There are some data from OldNeurons on TiN's website that suggest that 34461A is better than 34465A/34470A on 100 mV scale and 100 NPLC.
OK, I will make another run at 100 NPLC of all 4 instruments
May be I will add a second 34461A

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 17, 2019, 03:15:27 pm
Some info on Java applets in Chrome:

https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/chrome.xml (https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/chrome.xml)

Thank you JDubU.

Tried using Firefox version 64 >> Not Successful

Tried using IE version 11 >> Working
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on January 17, 2019, 03:36:36 pm
25.41°C would be the internal temperature and not the lab temperature

Thank you e61_phil.

If 25.41°C is the internal temperature, I guess the lab temperature (ambient temperature) should be lower than 25.41°C.

I note that the temperature readings shown on the Cal menu of the meter keep changing (see below). If I adjust my room aircond temperature setting until the "Temperature change from last calibration" = 0°C, is it ok to guess/tell that the ambient temperature of my room is now equal (or very close to) to the ambient temperature of the Keysight Cal lab when the meter was calibrated at the Keysight Cal lab?


The 34465/470s internal temperature usually rises about 3°C above room temperature, therefore this instrument had been calibrated at about 22.5 °C.
In the cal certificate, they do not give the actual cal temperature, only a range around 23°C.

My instrument has 'date 23C' as a cal string, so I assume this to be the original room temperature (as the internal temperature is displayed on that specific screen in a different manner).

So you should set your R.T. accordingly but also use ACAL, to get best accuracy.

And your friend should update the firmware to the recent 3.0, as this old one still contains a lot of errors, and 3.0 adds the DIG option, and HTML5 operation of the browser.

Frank 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 18, 2019, 09:59:58 am
OK, repeated the histogram noise test again, this time on 5 instruments at the same time over night.
The temperature span was about 1.5 degrees.

I am not sure what happened to the 34465A this time.

All standard settings, 100 NPLC

1. Room temperature measurement with 5k thermistor on a 34461A
2. Noise 34461A #1    = 70 nV StdDev
3. Noise 34461A #2    = 90 nV StdDev
4. Noise 34470A #1    = 90 nV StdDev
5. Noise 34470A #2    = 150 nV StdDev
6. Noise 34465A #1    = 120 nV StdDev
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: maxwell3e10 on January 18, 2019, 10:43:01 pm
I wonder if some of the standard deviation is due to long term drift. One can clearly see a double-peaked distribution on the 34465A.
One would have to save the raw data and calculate the Allan variance to separate short term noise from long term drift. 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Andreas on January 19, 2019, 05:20:29 pm
I am not sure what happened to the 34465A this time.

Temperature drift or even worse: popcorn noise?
Do you have the data over time?

with best regards

Andreas
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on January 21, 2019, 02:42:16 am
Thought I'd give this a try on my 34461A. It ran overnight and through the day. The twin peaks are the cooler temp of night and the warmer temp of day in the house. It would be nice to see no change with temperature but overall it seems the two temps are maintained quite well. There is a 3 degree C temp shift.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: dmm2018 on January 21, 2019, 05:44:41 am
Thought I'd give this a try on my 34461A. It ran overnight and through the day. The twin peaks are the cooler temp of night and the warmer temp of day in the house. It would be nice to see no change with temperature but overall it seems the two temps are maintained quite well. There is a 3 degree C temp shift.

I also got similar plot (2 peaks) sometimes... I believe it's due to temperature drift... in my case, when I placed the meter is a slightly different orientation, I could see it started to drift then settled at a new peak...
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Messtechniker on January 22, 2019, 10:03:43 am
And another one. :P
Ambient temp. was 20.5 +- 0.5 during measurement :palm:
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: zzattack on May 02, 2019, 12:28:30 pm
I've read some references in this thread about keysight moving away from WinCE for these units. Is there any concrete info about this? What would the replacement be?
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Kjelt on September 09, 2019, 11:29:06 am
Had luck found an affordable 34465A last week, couldn't resist.
Installed the new firmware 3.0 and now have the DIG option enabled.

I an now thinking of the MEM option but can only find that it extends the internal storage to 2M events instead of 50k.
So what is the usecase for this extra storage if I insert a USB stick and log to external storage then this is not needed or what am I missing ?
Second where can you buy this, I saw it on Farnell for $250 but is that the normal way of purchase, not directly at Keysight, any special discounts going on presently that anyone know of ?

Thanks. Great meter, enjoyed playing with it this weekend.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on September 09, 2019, 12:39:08 pm
Had luck found an affordable 34465A last week, couldn't resist.
Installed the new firmware 3.0 and now have the DIG option enabled.

I an now thinking of the MEM option but can only find that it extends the internal storage to 2M events instead of 50k.
So what is the usecase for this extra storage if I insert a USB stick and log to external storage then this is not needed or what am I missing ?
Second where can you buy this, I saw it on Farnell for $250 but is that the normal way of purchase, not directly at Keysight, any special discounts going on presently that anyone know of ?

Thanks. Great meter, enjoyed playing with it this weekend.

As soon as you really use (need) digitizing @50kHz, for longer intervals than 1sec, you'll also need the MEM option.

The instrument does not support fast data transfer to USB, or USB memory.. I didn't find the exact numbers of these speed limitations, right now.
This is mainly caused by the firmware, or the data crunching / transfer, possibly limited by the operating system WIN CE, because, in a similar manner, there's a limit of direct data transfer over the LAN and GPIB, to about 25 kSa/s.

You can observe that, if you are using BenchView trying to digitize at maximum rate and for longer period of time.

The internal buffer of the 34465A is used for that. As soon as the 50kSa, or 2MSa are exceeded, the whole system slows down.

They still have two bugs for digitizing, inside the command set, which prevent that the 344465A / 470A are really compatible with the 34411A (which probably was able to do direct high speed digitizing over its buses), and this also prevented my attempts to program digitizing at full speed.

1) There is no dedicated command to configure for 20µs or 50kHz w/o delay.
2) The smallest data format (50kHz delivers 16Bit only) for fast transfers is 8 Byte, that means bus data transfer rates of at least 400kB/sec, instead of 4 Byte / 200kB/sec, like in the 34411A. (*)

If you search the 344465A/470A for substantial data transfer rates over USB/LAN/GPIB, you'll only find incomplete information.

Anyhow, I have used this digitizing feature quite often in DCI digitizing mode, and was really happy about the 2MSa depth... got it for free, at that time.

Frank

(*) There's a detailed AN for the 410A/411A, "Agilent 34410A/34411A 6 1/2 Digit High-Performance Multimeters", which describes the digitizing state machine, and capabilities.
I'M missing that for the "successor instrument", maybe they simply replaced this state machine by SW, which is too slow.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Mr. Scram on September 09, 2019, 12:53:56 pm
I've read some references in this thread about keysight moving away from WinCE for these units. Is there any concrete info about this? What would the replacement be?
The four channel 1000X oscilloscope uses Linux where it's two channel brother uses CE. I've heard Linux mentioned in interviews too so that seems to be the most logical candidate.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Kjelt on September 09, 2019, 12:58:08 pm
@ Dr. Frank, thanks for the explanation.  :-+
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: idolclub on January 09, 2020, 06:44:34 pm
Keysight Releases New Firmware v3.01 for 3446xA/70A series.

Firmware Update 3.01 Release Notes:

34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A Revision 3.01 Enhancements and Fixes:

1. Improvements to reduce the occurrence of a memory leak associated with LAN traffic that occurs when the DMM is connected to a LAN network but remains idle for several days.

2. Changed the 100 kΩ range calibration to internally select 100 NPLC rather than 10 NPLC to better reject noise associated with selected Fluke 5730 calibration values.

3. Removed Option AVG from the list of available options (Help – About window) as it is not available to all customers.

Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 09, 2020, 11:16:02 pm

3. Removed Option AVG from the list of available options (Help – About window) as it is not available to all customers.

Too bad not a major update with enhancements.
But good that the LAN problem was fixed.

Did we ever find out what this AVG option was all about?
As its seems now, it was only for selected customers.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Dr. Frank on January 10, 2020, 09:10:48 am
Hello HighVoltage,
yes, about the AVG option, it's been answered here:
https://community.keysight.com/thread/26870

Frank
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 10, 2020, 09:32:31 am
Thank you Dr.Frank, I had not noticed this.

This was the answer:
Quote
The 34465AVG  AC average function is a special option that was done for the Navy that you shouldn't want.  The Navy wanted to get matching results that are given by some very old analog voltmeters before good RMS converters were available.  The 34465A true RMS AC voltage function gives a much more accurate RMS voltage.  In any case, the AVG option is only available to the Navy.  It was a mistake to have this show up in the Help > About window.

So, it seems, Keysight has a special firmware for the Navy. And may be other large customers.
Very interesting.
 
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: babysitter on January 10, 2020, 01:45:15 pm
Just to give back to the eevblog community:
A little python script leaking measurements into the clipboard.

Requirements:

You enter the query, a multiplier (if needed) and if you want CR-terminated string in the clipboard.

Your trusty DMM will start cyclic measurement and you can e.g. write reports and get the most recent measurement into your report by pressing Ctrl-V.

With CR termination (j) its  -0.000
 -0.000
 -0.001
 -0.001
 -0.001
 -0.001

Without CR termination (n) its  -0.000 -0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000 0.000

Tested with a 34461A.

BR
Hendrik
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Hexley on January 18, 2020, 10:13:30 pm
The continuity test feature in my 34465A is acting oddly when the meter is first powered on: the beep sound extends for a long time after continuity is broken. In other words, a brief touch of the probes will produce a few full seconds of sound.

After 3 or 4 test touches, with the prolonged beep period getting shorter on each test, the meter seems to recover and it operates as expected from that point onward.

I suppose Keysight should take a look at this. Before sending it in for service, I wanted to ask if any forum members have seen a similar issue?

BTW, the meter is running v3.01 firmware.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on January 18, 2020, 11:25:21 pm
I don't see this on a 34461A running 3.01 but I know in the past the performance of continuity was broken on the 34461A when they first added support for the 34465/70 so there is a difference somewhere. Hopefully another 34465A owner can comment.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: HighVoltage on January 18, 2020, 11:36:19 pm
The continuity test behavior of these instruments never went back to how it was when the 34461A was released first with the original FW.
My guess, its probably such a minor issue that will not be addressed again in the future with new FW updates.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: kj7e on January 19, 2020, 12:10:59 am
Running FW v3.01 on my 34465A, just fired mine up and found no issues with odd tone or tone latch behavior.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: Hexley on January 19, 2020, 12:18:26 am
Running FW v3.01 on my 34465A, just fired mine up and found no issues with odd tone or tone latch behavior.

Thanks for checking. Looks like it is not a widespread issue, just something idiosyncratic here.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: idolclub on February 14, 2020, 09:47:30 pm
Keysight Releases New Firmware v3.02 for 3446xA / 34470A series.

Firmware Update 3.02 Release Notes (Previous release: 3.01)

34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A Revision 3.02 Enhancements and Fixes:

1. Resolves the memory leak associated with LAN traffic that occurred when the DMM is connected to a LAN network but remains idle for several days.



34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A Revision 3.01 Enhancements and Fixes:

1. Improvements to reduce the occurrence of a memory leak associated with LAN traffic that occurs when the DMM is connected to a LAN network but remains idle for several days.

2. Changed the 100 kΩ range calibration to internally select 100 NPLC rather than 10 NPLC to better reject noise associated with selected Fluke 5730 calibration values.

3. Removed Option AVG from the list of available options (Help – About window) as it is not available to all customers.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: NoisyBoy on February 15, 2020, 02:12:29 am
Thanks for the heads-up, as I wasn't expecting another firmware update so quickly.  Apparently the memory leak fix in 3.01 must not be doing the trick, I will update my meters later tonight.
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: TheSteve on February 15, 2020, 04:08:18 am
Updated without issue!
Title: Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
Post by: NoisyBoy on February 15, 2020, 07:06:13 am
X2, update went smoothly on both the 34461A and 34465A. 

Thanks Keysight for being so responsive and proactive on firmware update.  This is one of many reasons that separate Keysight from most tier-B brands, for me, it makes the decision to go Keysight easy to justify.