Wow, 1uA current range :-+ :clap:
And added cap measurement too.
Obviously designed to compete with the new Keithley DMM7510
Wow, 1uA current range :-+ :clap:
And added cap measurement too.
Obviously designed to compete with the new Keithley DMM7510
Looks like they're going to release firmware for the 34460A/61A to add capacitance measurement too. Either that or that made a major mistake in the new spec sheets.
I wonder, which kind of volt reference they use; I doubt that an LM399H can further be selected for 16ppm/yr. stability.
34465A - R$ 11,304.49 - US$ 3,995.37 - £2,588.80
This price is in Brazil, normally much more expensive.
And also, it is as costly as the 3458A..
The 10µA and 1µA ranges are realized by higher amplification on the same 100µA shunt..as the burden goes down by factors of ten, each. Maybe they copied Daves µCurrent circuitry?
Here's to hoping Dave ends up with one of each in the next few days! :o
I have it on very good authority that those prices are completely wrong.
The 34465A will be around US$1500
The 34470A will be <US$3000
Options will cost extra, in the order of hundreds of dollars.
And yes, I might be able to get one soon for teardown.
I have it on very good authority that those prices are completely wrong.
The 34465A will be around US$1500
The 34470A will be <US$3000
Options will cost extra, in the order of hundreds of dollars.
And yes, I might be able to get one soon for teardown.
This price is in Brazil, normally much more expensive.
For some context, iPhones used to be sold officially in Brazil for almost twice the price. Playstation 4 launch price? US$1400 vs. US$400 on Amazon. Brasilians often complain about this here in the EEVBlog forum. It's because of import taxes :-- It's so bad, actually, that Apple started manufacturing iPhones in Brazil just to stay competitive in that market.
The conversion rate in that site is, let me say, unreliable.
DSOX3014A - R$12,821.78 - US$3,950
MDO3014 - R$13,949.20 - US$3,990
34461A -R$5,798.34 - US$1.100
Fluke 87V - R$2,490.00 - US$340
U1733C - R$1,099.56 - US$432
US$ prices from tequipment.com
The Fluke 87V here, as you could see, is in 'normal' range of value. You could see that, even with taxes, and reseller profit, still very high.
I don't know why. One thing to think, the agilent U1272 or U1273 are about R$1000,00~R$1500,00, way less than fluke. I don't know how they calculate brazilan values... :scared:
So, it ranges from 2.5 to 8.
My guess is that the conversion rate will be similar to the 34461A, about 5.
I have it on very good authority that those prices are completely wrong.
The 34465A will be around US$1500
The 34470A will be <US$3000
Options will cost extra, in the order of hundreds of dollars.
And yes, I might be able to get one soon for teardown.
Yes, Techni-tool who virtually never discounts has the 34465A for $1395, and the 34470A for $2895.
http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3446 (http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3446)
http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3447 (http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3447)
They will be available (at least in North America) in the beginning of March. Some distributors have stock already. I am working on trying to get a demo this week to compare it to the 34461A that I still can return. The guy I am dealing with says they have 3, none of them being spoken for, and can sell them on the 2nd.
Apparently I have one practically on the truck...
Apparently I have one practically on the truck...
A Keithley, or an HP (successor)?
A Keithley, or an HP (successor)?
New brochure from Keysight, 34465A - 34470A included
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-5315EN.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5990-5315EN.pdf)
Hey, what's with that U3606A/U3606B ?
A 5.5 digit meter and 30W PSU in the one unit, is that new too?
I have it on very good authority that those prices are completely wrong.
The 34465A will be around US$1500
The 34470A will be <US$3000
Options will cost extra, in the order of hundreds of dollars.
And yes, I might be able to get one soon for teardown.
Yes, Techni-tool who virtually never discounts has the 34465A for $1395, and the 34470A for $2895.
http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3446 (http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3446)
http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3447 (http://www.techni-tool.com/431TE3447)
Techni-tool appears to have scrubbed those pages.
Any other confirmation or delivery date information?
The model numbers are easily found on the Keysight site, so looks like it is fully public now.
* Capacitance measurement (ALL - NEW for 60/61)
* Capacitance measurement (ALL - NEW for 60/61)
Existing 61 owners can get cap measurement with a firmware upgrade?
Capacitance measurements with the 34461A will require an upgrade to firmware revision 2.07. Revision 2.07 should be available on the Web around March 16th. You can upgrade the firmware yourself by downloading the firmware update utility that is also on the web, along with the firmware file itself.
Note that after you upgrade the firmware, the capacitance function is accessed by pressing:
Shift ? Freq
Older instruments such as yours will not have the symbol above the Freq key as the newer instruments will.
* ACAL. The manual does not exclude the 60/61 from ACAL even though the datasheet does (ALL - NEW for 60/61- to be confirmed).
* Extended calibration status window with ACAL-related info (ALL - NEW for 60/61 TBC)
* Partial 2nd measurement display (e.g. ACV while DCV primary) (NEW for 60/61)
Just lit it up for the first time, and man I am glad this got released while I still could return the Rigol and the 61A! It was not much more than the 61A either.
Silent hint : we'd love to see some foto's and hear some first imperssions ;)
Want to use the digitiser feature, though? That's another £258.
Access to the full memory of the device? A further £161. (Seriously... memory chips are NOT expensive these days!)
Want to use the digitiser feature, though? That's another £258.
Access to the full memory of the device? A further £161. (Seriously... memory chips are NOT expensive these days!)
The point is, it is not the memory chips, they are already there probably. You are paying for the development, or something like that...
I don't mind paying for features that take time and effort to develop. I spent about £600 on serial decoding for my Agilent scope, and it was well worth it.I agree - we shouldn't have arbitrary memory limits in modern devices.
Enabling the use of memory that's already there is just removing an arbitrary limit, though. There's no design effort, no innovation.
They've done something similar with their BenchVue software. The basic version is free, which is great, but if you want to data log for more than 1 hour, you have to buy the 'pro' version for another £128 (and even more, if you want to log data from other types of instrument).
I don't mind paying for features that take time and effort to develop. I spent about £600 on serial decoding for my Agilent scope, and it was well worth it.
Enabling the use of memory that's already there is just removing an arbitrary limit, though. There's no design effort, no innovation.
They've done something similar with their BenchVue software. The basic version is free, which is great, but if you want to data log for more than 1 hour, you have to buy the 'pro' version for another £128 (and even more, if you want to log data from other types of instrument).
I'll test the water here.
What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?
I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.
Please educate me!
I'll test the water here.
What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?
I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.
Please educate me!
If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.
Measuring the long term stability of that new Calibratory D-105 DC Precision Voltage Reference Standard. ;)If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.
But what are those cases? :-//
I'll test the water here.
What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?
I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.
Please educate me!
If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.
But what are those cases? :-//
Speaking of strange options, does anyone know if the LAN port is enabled or disabled by default on the 34465A? Keysight says yes. Testequity says no. Keysight does not respond to inquiries except to forward me to Microlease, which I find mildly irritating. Yeah, I'm a one man band with no volume , but this is a simple question. :-/
I'll test the water here.
What is the justification for blowing $3,000 on a 7.5 digit dmm?
I am desperately trying to keep an open mind, but it is my head that's saying besides a very, very, very few edge cases this has strong parallels to audiophoolery.
Please educate me!
If you could pay a lot more on a 8.5 digit dmm, why not on a 7.5 digits?
Some cases you need, and when you need, you need.
But what are those cases? :-//
Well, testing voltage and current references for one.
Or what if you have an application where you're using a high quality ADC to measure something and you want to check your results in testing before releasing something to the field? Or for calibrating a device using an ADC prior to shipment. Or anytime that having a more accurate result is valuable... light sensing, temperature sensing, or whatever.
I don't think there is any parallel to audiophoolery, because an 8.5 digit DMM will actually have that level of resolution and accuracy, whereas audiophoolery is about expensive products that don't actually do anything at all.
So, at least in my case the 6 1/2 digits wasn't nearly as important as the ability to measure nA accurately.
I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it
I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it
Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.
Haven't tried it but I wonder if the effect of temperature variations is more than that of discharge by the time you get to the 6th digit...
Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.
I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it
Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.
Yep, I guess we'll all be doing slow discharge tests of batteries next to justify our 6 1/2 digit meters :) I work with battery powered designs all the time, haven't seen the need for measuring battery discharge with a 6 1/2 digit meter yet. An electronic load with logging to a laptop has been much more useful for my use when characterising a battery.
I have a 6 1/2 digit bench meter (got it free), use it occasionally, but certainly wouldn't rush out to buy one and I am designing/working with electronics every day. I agree that there are 'some' applications where it is needed, but I'll stick to my original claim that only a small fraction of users actually NEED one.
cheers,
george.
Anyone know who has the 34465A in stock in the US?
Haven't tried it but I wonder if the effect of temperature variations is more than that of discharge by the time you get to the 6th digit...
Agreed. I've worked in design labs for over 25 years and worked alongside hundreds of talented engineers across RF/HW/SW/DSP designing all manner of products in the defence industry and it's extremely rare to see a 6.5 digit DMM being used in our labs. We have loads of very expensive test
gear but the DMM isn't seen as anything special and is just seen as a dull and boring accessory and we get by just fine with 3.5 to 5 digit H/H models.
When you design something where the specification said 0.0x% or 0.00x% it is quite essential to have a meter like this, or even a 3458A. I like the one we have at work a lot. You can measure stuff you never even imagined it is even possible. Like you have a solid ground plane, but it is possible to measure the uV of voltage drops across it. If you ever worked with a 16 bits or more having one is essential.I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it
Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.
Yep, I guess we'll all be doing slow discharge tests of batteries next to justify our 6 1/2 digit meters :) I work with battery powered designs all the time, haven't seen the need for measuring battery discharge with a 6 1/2 digit meter yet. An electronic load with logging to a laptop has been much more useful for my use when characterising a battery.
I have a 6 1/2 digit bench meter (got it free), use it occasionally, but certainly wouldn't rush out to buy one and I am designing/working with electronics every day. I agree that there are 'some' applications where it is needed, but I'll stick to my original claim that only a small fraction of users actually NEED one.
cheers,
george.
Agreed. I've worked in design labs for over 25 years and worked alongside hundreds of talented engineers across RF/HW/SW/DSP designing all manner of products in the defence industry and it's extremely rare to see a 6.5 digit DMM being used in our labs. We have loads of very expensive test
gear but the DMM isn't seen as anything special and is just seen as a dull and boring accessory and we get by just fine with 3.5 to 5 digit H/H models.
In the test dept things are different and there are quite a few high end DMMs. some in ATE racks and some are on test benches where they have a definite status appeal.
I doubt more than a tiny fraction of folk have a need for 6 1/2 or 7 1/2 or ... accuracy and indeed many of the purchasing decision are based on wanting the perceived latest & greatest versus needing it
Trying watching something simple, like the slow discharge of a battery, using a 4.5 digit meter. Good luck.
Having a 6.5 digit meter is like having a deep memory scope. You don't know how useful it can be until you get it.
I'm also interested how did they make the good old artefact calibration in the meters.
I dont know, is it? For sure, they call it the same way. The manual said it takes 20-30 seconds to do this, it takes several minutes on the 3458A, because the 1000 NPLC on the 3458A, while the xx65 and 70 are 100NPLC. We need to see a service manual, because the user manual is missing the details. Maybe after the teardown it will be more clear. Maybe Dave should cover this if he makes a review of the meters or ask HP/Agilent/Keysight to clarify.
I'm also interested how did they make the good old artefact calibration in the meters.
You mean the AUTOCAL feature of the 3458A?
That is NOT implemented in the new '465A and'470A, quite obviously, although they also call it AUTOCAL.
If you have a look in the manual for these new meters, service / calibration section, you will note, that these instruments both have to calibrated in the usual manner, i.e. by individual Cardinal Points for each mode and for each range.
They may only correct for some internal temperature drifts of amplifiers, what they call AUTOCAL here, but the A/D is far too bad (nonlinear) to realize a real / full artefact calibration, by only two references.
Frank
I dont know, is it? For sure, they call it the same way. The manual said it takes 20-30 seconds to do this, it takes several minutes on the 3458A, because the 1000 NPLC on the 3458A, while the xx65 and 70 are 100NPLC. We need to see a service manual, because the user manual is missing the details. Maybe after the teardown it will be more clear. Maybe Dave should cover this if he makes a review of the meters or ask HP/Agilent/Keysight to clarify.
You are right. The calibration process still contains a lot more steps than what you would need for artefact. We should see some block diagrams, otherwise we have no idea what is going on inside the meter when we press the button.I dont know, is it? For sure, they call it the same way. The manual said it takes 20-30 seconds to do this, it takes several minutes on the 3458A, because the 1000 NPLC on the 3458A, while the xx65 and 70 are 100NPLC. We need to see a service manual, because the user manual is missing the details. Maybe after the teardown it will be more clear. Maybe Dave should cover this if he makes a review of the meters or ask HP/Agilent/Keysight to clarify.
This manual is already available, that is document 34460-90901.pdf.
This manual now contains special chapters for 34465A and 34470A, also describing their calibration routines, see snapshot from the DCV section.
Therefore, no artefact calibration!
See page 527, a Fluke 5270A is required, 10V and 10k artefacts won't do the job.
The A/D is only 1 .. 1.5ppm linear, which may correct gain 10 errors in the order of 10..15 ppm only, impossible to achieve a full autocal calibration. (compare that to 0.02ppm linearity of the HP3458A)
Then , the third indicator is in the specs.
All ranges diverge over time, i.e. the uncertainty gap between two distinct ranges increases over time.
On the 3458A, this gap is always constant, even after 1 year, as this instrument corrects all ratio uncertainties to the 24h specification, every time AUTOCAL is engaged.
Frank
One thing I've found a 6.5 digit multimeter really useful is measuring the current of a microcontroller. Not because it was drawing a tiny amount, but because the difference between the burden voltages of adjacent ranges was enough that it triggered the micro's brown out logic. With the 6.5 digits being enough to give a decent level of precision on the higher range.
Thinking a little bit further about the 10V DCV drift specifications (most stable range) I come to the conclusion, that the 34465A will probably have an LM399H reference inside, (20ppm/year drift), and the 34470A will probably have the LTZ1000A reference of the 3458A (8ppm/year drift).
As the operational ambient temperature is also specified for 55°C, they again have to run the references on about 90°C oven temperature.
Frank
We will be releasing revision 2.08 rather than 2.06 due to defects that were found and resolved during testing. I know this seems unending and I apologize. I am given release dates which I then pad in case of unforeseen issues. 2.08 is now scheduled for release March 16th.
I have attached a set of slides which summarize the changes/fixes for the 34461A that are contained in 2.08.
I have had an update from Keysight about the 34461A's firmware:Quote from: KeysightWe will be releasing revision 2.08 rather than 2.06 due to defects that were found and resolved during testing. I know this seems unending and I apologize. I am given release dates which I then pad in case of unforeseen issues. 2.08 is now scheduled for release March 16th.
I have attached a set of slides which summarize the changes/fixes for the 34461A that are contained in 2.08.
This is the same date (March 16th) as rosbuitre said, but they have increased the version number. I don't think there is anything new in the slides, but it does mention that the ethernet has HiSLIP and IPv6 support, which I hadn't realised before.
Link to the slides: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0).
I have had an update from Keysight about the 34461A's firmware:Quote from: KeysightWe will be releasing revision 2.08 rather than 2.06 due to defects that were found and resolved during testing. I know this seems unending and I apologize. I am given release dates which I then pad in case of unforeseen issues. 2.08 is now scheduled for release March 16th.
I have attached a set of slides which summarize the changes/fixes for the 34461A that are contained in 2.08.
This is the same date (March 16th) as rosbuitre said, but they have increased the version number. I don't think there is anything new in the slides, but it does mention that the ethernet has HiSLIP and IPv6 support, which I hadn't realised before.
Link to the slides: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0).
:clap:
I have had an update from Keysight about the 34461A's firmware:Quote from: KeysightWe will be releasing revision 2.08 rather than 2.06 due to defects that were found and resolved during testing. I know this seems unending and I apologize. I am given release dates which I then pad in case of unforeseen issues. 2.08 is now scheduled for release March 16th.
I have attached a set of slides which summarize the changes/fixes for the 34461A that are contained in 2.08.
This is the same date (March 16th) as rosbuitre said, but they have increased the version number. I don't think there is anything new in the slides, but it does mention that the ethernet has HiSLIP and IPv6 support, which I hadn't realised before.
Link to the slides: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0).
:clap:
There's no need to be sarcastic - the original firmware update for the 34461A was due out, at the very latest, of December 2014 (I reported the histogram bug to them in January 2014). I was also told at the end of January that 2.06 was going to be released on March 1st. Then you said that bumping it up to 2.07 added a fortnight. So the fact that keysight have increased the version number again and not pushed the release back further is a small miracle.
I have had an update from Keysight about the 34461A's firmware:Quote from: KeysightWe will be releasing revision 2.08 rather than 2.06 due to defects that were found and resolved during testing. I know this seems unending and I apologize. I am given release dates which I then pad in case of unforeseen issues. 2.08 is now scheduled for release March 16th.
I have attached a set of slides which summarize the changes/fixes for the 34461A that are contained in 2.08.
This is the same date (March 16th) as rosbuitre said, but they have increased the version number. I don't think there is anything new in the slides, but it does mention that the ethernet has HiSLIP and IPv6 support, which I hadn't realised before.
Link to the slides: https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/kynqv5v1opoda7i/34460A-34461A%202.08%20Enhancements.pptx?dl=0).
:clap:
There's no need to be sarcastic - the original firmware update for the 34461A was due out, at the very latest, of December 2014 (I reported the histogram bug to them in January 2014). I was also told at the end of January that 2.06 was going to be released on March 1st. Then you said that bumping it up to 2.07 added a fortnight. So the fact that keysight have increased the version number again and not pushed the release back further is a small miracle.
Hi
Not trying to be sarcastic, Am I getting the 34461A Friday and makes me happy improvements and corrections, only that
Regards
First impression of the 34465A is that it's more compact than my Keithley 2000, and the display is bright, clear, and has a wide viewing angle. Nice.
Auto-ranging, on the other hand, is so much slower it's not even funny. One of the things I really like about the K2000 is that I can apply a signal, and by the time I've looked up at the meter, it's already found the correct range and showed a measurement. The 34465A is much more like a handheld meter, really quite slow, and that's disappointing. Maybe there's a setting that'll speed it up?
There's also an annoying relay that clicks away if the meter is left in high-Z voltage mode. As the inputs charge and discharge, the meter switches range and back to accommodate the instantaneous voltage. Maybe I'll just have to leave it in 10M mode instead. It's a shame, but the K2000 doesn't have this quirk either.
Any one know if the software update for the '61A will include the ability to log direct to a USB stick? That is one feature that is surprisingly missing.
Auto-ranging, on the other hand, is so much slower it's not even funny. One of the things I really like about the K2000 is that I can apply a signal, and by the time I've looked up at the meter, it's already found the correct range and showed a measurement. The 34465A is much more like a handheld meter, really quite slow, and that's disappointing. Maybe there's a setting that'll speed it up?
Really? I find that the 61A has a very similar auto-ranging speed to the 2000, I can't see why it would take longer on the 65A.
Auto-ranging, on the other hand, is so much slower it's not even funny. One of the things I really like about the K2000 is that I can apply a signal, and by the time I've looked up at the meter, it's already found the correct range and showed a measurement. The 34465A is much more like a handheld meter, really quite slow, and that's disappointing. Maybe there's a setting that'll speed it up?
Really? I find that the 61A has a very similar auto-ranging speed to the 2000, I can't see why it would take longer on the 65A.
I find this weird to. Which measurement are you autoranging? Even with relay activation, I found the 34461A immensely faster at autoranging than any HH DMM I have. And the 34465A is supposed to be even faster then the 34461A. Per the datasheet, the autoranging time in DCV is <30ms for the 34461A and the autoranging time for all measurements is < 5ms (!) for the 34465A.
Note that the measurement itself may be slow. The reset value for all 3446x series is NPLC10 and autozero ON, so by default you get a measurement time of 0.33/0.4 sec, and that's noticeable (it certainly dwarfs the autoranging time). You can put the 34465A in NPLC 1 or .2 or .02, still get near-full accuracy and blindingly fast readings.
Guys... long day at work followed by the arrival of a new toy. Of course I've been playing!
I spent a while yesterday looking for the red grabber, which I was sure should have been included in the test lead kit. I was going to give Keysight a call today to say it was missing, but having looked at the included accessories on their web site, it turns out you only get a black one (WTF?!)
On the plus side, setting it up to log to USB was dead easy and worked first time. I'm at a bit of a loss as to why anyone would pay for the MEM upgrade, when the 50,000 point limit of the standard meter doesn't apply if you're logging to a file on a USB stick. I checked this morning; 70,000 points taken at 3msec intervals, no problem at all.
Has anyone else noticed the noise from the fan? It's quiet, but quite high pitched and... whiney. Maybe it's inevitable, what with the fan being so small, but it's irritating nonetheless. Fortunately the radio drowns it out easily.
On the plus side, setting it up to log to USB was dead easy and worked first time. I'm at a bit of a loss as to why anyone would pay for the MEM upgrade, when the 50,000 point limit of the standard meter doesn't apply if you're logging to a file on a USB stick. I checked this morning; 70,000 points taken at 3msec intervals, no problem at all.Can you share a log file?
Start date:,03/10/2015,Start time:,15:09:42.910
Sample interval:,0.002000
Reading #,Reading
1,+8.80413134E+00
2,+8.80414814E+00
3,+8.80423098E+00
4,+8.80415278E+00
5,+8.80414582E+00
6,+8.80419101E+00
7,+8.80415741E+00
8,+8.80417653E+00
9,+8.80417885E+00
10,+8.80416958E+00
Start date:,03/10/2015,Start time:,15:18:38.130
Sample interval:,0.500000
Reading #,Reading
1,+8.80401932E+00
2,+8.80401939E+00
3,+8.80402039E+00
4,+8.80401911E+00
5,+8.80401959E+00
6,+8.80401877E+00
7,+8.80401866E+00
8,+8.80401888E+00
9,+8.80402165E+00
10,+8.80401964E+00
Here's a photo of with the shield in place. This is the only shield in the meter-there's not a separate one for the fan/regulator.
Here's a 10 sample log. Probes are connected to a 9V battery. Meter is set to the 10V range, acquisition time is set to 200us, and sample interval is set to 2ms, both of which are as short as I can get. If anyone knows how to sample at 1ms intervals, I'd be interested to know what I've missed.Code: [Select]Start date:,03/10/2015,Start time:,15:09:42.910
Sample interval:,0.002000
Reading #,Reading
1,+8.80413134E+00
2,+8.80414814E+00
3,+8.80423098E+00
4,+8.80415278E+00
5,+8.80414582E+00
6,+8.80419101E+00
7,+8.80415741E+00
8,+8.80417653E+00
9,+8.80417885E+00
10,+8.80416958E+00
Here's a 10 sample log. Probes are connected to a 9V battery. Meter is set to the 10V range, acquisition time is set to 200us, and sample interval is set to 2ms, both of which are as short as I can get. If anyone knows how to sample at 1ms intervals, I'd be interested to know what I've missed.
Start date:,03/10/2015,Start time:,16:29:47.790
Sample interval:,0.001000
Reading #,Reading
1,+8.80342110E+00
2,+8.80344253E+00
3,+8.80340430E+00
4,+8.80342110E+00
5,+8.80344485E+00
6,+8.80348772E+00
7,+8.80350684E+00
8,+8.80343326E+00
9,+8.80334289E+00
10,+8.80338808E+00
Did anyone get the Digitize (DIG) option? I would love to hear what maximum sustained sample rate is possible when simultaneously transferring data to a PC with USB and LAN connections.
A few years ago, I measured the output of a prototype DC power supply with a cheap Tenma DMM (a tool which, I should add, I used on a daily basis for many years and which was generally both accurate and trustworthy).
The reading was a few volts higher than it should have been, and I spent a while probing around the circuit to try and figure out why.
It turned out to be noise on the output, which was upsetting the DMM and causing it to misread. Give or take a capacitor or two, the PSU itself was fine.
The noise was visible with a scope, but that's less convenient, and not isolated. A 34465A with digitiser could, potentially, have shown not only the correct DC voltage, but also detail of the noise.
If I had any other ideas, I'd have the DIG option for my 34465A.
Did anyone get the Digitize (DIG) option? I would love to hear what maximum sustained sample rate is possible when simultaneously transferring data to a PC with USB and LAN connections.
Did anyone get the Digitize (DIG) option? I would love to hear what maximum sustained sample rate is possible when simultaneously transferring data to a PC with USB and LAN connections.
The datasheet says that the 34465/70A can do up to 40k readings/s in ASCII to the bus (LAN or USB connected computer). I have also been reliably informed that both LAN and USB have been tested at the maximum 50k readings/s but the data has to be in binary format (configured by the FORMat:DATA SCPI command - page 264 of the manual).
Did anyone get the Digitize (DIG) option? I would love to hear what maximum sustained sample rate is possible when simultaneously transferring data to a PC with USB and LAN connections.
The datasheet says that the 34465/70A can do up to 40k readings/s in ASCII to the bus (LAN or USB connected computer). I have also been reliably informed that both LAN and USB have been tested at the maximum 50k readings/s but the data has to be in binary format (configured by the FORMat:DATA SCPI command - page 264 of the manual).
It's unfortunate, and I don't understand why, the instrument configuration for max readings/sec is not clearly stated. One should not need reliable informants on-the-inside for the configuration that yields the publicly disclosed specs...
I hope it's just an oversight and Keysight publish it soon enough...
Don't get me wrong -- I can certainly imagine having fun with that functionality and using it. I just wonder what a real professional would do with it.Obviously, there will be valid uses (for some users) for these features but at my place of work the logging bench DMM is a rare sight in the engineering labs. I doubt many people have used one for logging because they are usually way too slow. Even in this thread people are hitting very slow sample limits.
Some additional detail photos. The Resistor R324 is a Vishay precision resistor marked as VH102ZT 10K000 1%. Also, I did notice a small fan shield after looking at it again. It's just a small piece of bent sheet metal.
Some additional detail photos. The Resistor R324 is a Vishay precision resistor marked as VH102ZT 10K000 1%. Also, I did notice a small fan shield after looking at it again. It's just a small piece of bent sheet metal.
I am confused about the trend plotting in Data Log or Digitize modes. Is it available while logging or only when logging/digitizing is done? Does the graph get reset (and not redrawn) if you change the X axis? Can you also rebin the histogram without clearing it?
QuoteDon't get me wrong -- I can certainly imagine having fun with that functionality and using it. I just wonder what a real professional would do with it.Obviously, there will be valid uses (for some users) for these features but at my place of work the logging bench DMM is a rare sight in the engineering labs. I doubt many people have used one for logging because they are usually way too slow. Even in this thread people are hitting very slow sample limits.
LM399 in socket? :) Beware wild voltnuts.
As a serious note, maybe that's how they swap reference to LTZ1000 for 34470A, if mainboard same? Just plug a LTZ-based ref board into socket.
I am confused about the trend plotting in Data Log or Digitize modes. Is it available while logging or only when logging/digitizing is done? Does the graph get reset (and not redrawn) if you change the X axis? Can you also rebin the histogram without clearing it?
The person that came up with the name "Digitize Mode" at Keysight should be fired.
LM399 in socket? :) Beware wild voltnuts.
As a serious note, maybe that's how they swap reference to LTZ1000 for 34470A, if mainboard same? Just plug a LTZ-based ref board into socket.
Because it doesn't say anything about what is different in that mode, it's digitizing in all modes, that's what a DMM is supposed to do. "Measuring Mode" would say equally as 'much'.The person that came up with the name "Digitize Mode" at Keysight should be fired.
Why do you think that?
You'll have to wait for my teardown, rendering now... 35 minutes of waffle about the reference and A/B comparison with the 34461A board.We wanted to order a new one today, but will wait for your teardown.
We wanted to order a new one today, but will wait for your teardown.
They just copied the errors from 1988.. could have been done better..
Obviously, they just transferred the old 3458A reference PCB to modern design / components.
Even the alternative positions for R4 and R5 are available.. for pimping to 65°C / 1ppm/yr.
They just copied the errors from 1988.. could have been done better..
Obviously, they just transferred the old 3458A reference PCB to modern design / components.
Even the alternative positions for R4 and R5 are available.. for pimping to 65°C / 1ppm/yr.
What errors?
I'm not familiar with the 3458A reference, never opened one. But isn't it the ducks guts?
Do you doubt this can meet the claimed specs?
I was impressed with the plastic enclosure design and the separation of the driver transistor (for separate cooling?).
Photos are up in the usual place for those who can't wait...Thanks so much for the photos, Dave !
Teardown wise the 34470A is as good as you could expect it to be :-+
Photos are up in the usual place for those who can't wait...Where is the usual place? :-[
Teardown wise the 34470A is as good as you could expect it to be :-+
Because it doesn't say anything about what is different in that mode, it's digitizing in all modes, that's what a DMM is supposed to do. "Measuring Mode" would say equally as 'much'.The person that came up with the name "Digitize Mode" at Keysight should be fired.
Why do you think that?
"High Speed Mode" for example would already mean something.
Interestingly, the 34470A's reference is attached by an 8 pin header (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/16171847343/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/16171847343/)). On the 34465, you can see there are 4 additional unpopulated holes by the LM399 reference:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=141295 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=141295)
If we can get firmware dump from 34470A, then some voltnuts could be able to upgrade their 34460/61's to 34470A for cheap (~$400USD, cost of LTZ reference, foil resistor and missing parts) since rest of hardware is same ;D
If we can get firmware dump from 34470A, then some voltnuts could be able to upgrade their 34460/61's to 34470A for cheap (~$400USD, cost of LTZ reference, foil resistor and missing parts) since rest of hardware is same ;D
Not sure if that's possible, but the 34465A to 34470A should be possible, just change the reference and firmware. Or if you were happy with the LM399 just change the firmware to get the extra digit.
This product is being discontinued. Orders for life buy purchases are available
TI does not recommend using this part in a new design. This product continues to be in production to support existing customers. TI suggests designers consider TM4C12x as an alternative family or series of devices for use in new designs.
About that ARM processor on the bottom of the board.
http://www.ti.com/product/lm3s1d21 (http://www.ti.com/product/lm3s1d21)QuoteThis product is being discontinued. Orders for life buy purchases are available
TI does not recommend using this part in a new design. This product continues to be in production to support existing customers. TI suggests designers consider TM4C12x as an alternative family or series of devices for use in new designs.
Ooops!
Splin
They just copied the errors from 1988.. could have been done better..
Obviously, they just transferred the old 3458A reference PCB to modern design / components.
Even the alternative positions for R4 and R5 are available.. for pimping to 65°C / 1ppm/yr.
What errors?
I'm not familiar with the 3458A reference, never opened one. But isn't it the ducks guts?
Do you doubt this can meet the claimed specs?
I was impressed with the plastic enclosure design and the separation of the driver transistor (for separate cooling?).
Hi Dave,
sure, this reference is something like the Holy Grale. We discussed that in the Ultra LTZ1000 blog intensively.
But anyhow, HP engineers originally designed this circuit to run on 95°C, also due to the required ambient temperature of 55°C.
That causes a higher drift than intended originally by LT: running on 65°C instead gives typically -1.. -2ppm/year, and other designs of 8 1/2 digit DMM, standards and calibrators use 45..55°C oven temperature for around 1..2 ppm/year guaranteed stability.
In this instrument, they could have used the LTZ1000, (non A), easily reducing the oven temperature by 10°C and increasing the stability by a factor of about 2, and maybe further down to 75°C by better thermal management, giving 3..4ppm/year for sure.
Obviously, the Keysight engineers did not want to create an improved circuit, which they would have to re-qualify elaborately.
That could also be true for the rest of the circuitry, where they may have copied the Multislope IV circuit and algorithm from the 34410/11.
Frank
But anyhow, HP engineers originally designed this circuit to run on 95°C, also due to the required ambient temperature of 55°C.
That causes a higher drift than intended originally by LT: running on 65°C instead gives typically -1.. -2ppm/year, and other designs of 8 1/2 digit DMM, standards and calibrators use 45..55°C oven temperature for around 1..2 ppm/year guaranteed stability.
+821,"Controller and measurement board model numbers do not match"
+822,"Controller and measurement board serial numbers do not match"
+820,"Model and serial numbers not restored"
But anyhow, HP engineers originally designed this circuit to run on 95°C, also due to the required ambient temperature of 55°C.
That causes a higher drift than intended originally by LT: running on 65°C instead gives typically -1.. -2ppm/year, and other designs of 8 1/2 digit DMM, standards and calibrators use 45..55°C oven temperature for around 1..2 ppm/year guaranteed stability.
If this is the case, why is the fan needed for normal lab environments. It seems to me the this 61a/65a/70a should work just fine without the fan. Has anyone here just pulled the plug on the fan in their unit and run it that way?
U904 looks like ATMEL 34 I2C EEPROM. And U101 on front board looks EEPROMish too. Maybe Dave can use his MiniProg for them :=\
| U100 | TI 2051b 2bm a4dj | Single power distribution switch <0.5 A |
| U101 | ST M41T82R | I2C RTC with battery switch over |
| U102 | Maxim MAX3232E | RS232 driver |
| U103 | C6AF NZ04 | Possibly a Fairchild part |
| U200 | Unpopulated 8 pin | |
| U201 | ST SPEAr320S-2 | Main processor, ARM926EJ-S core, <333 MHz, 32 kB embedded boot ROM, 8 kB embedded SRAM, crypto co-processor, touch screen interface |
| U202 | SMSC 8710A | LAN8710A (microchip) 10/100 ethernet transceiver - has auto-MDIX support |
| U203 | Micron NQ277 2TDI7 | MT29F1G08ABADAH4 1 Gb (128 MB) NAND flash |
| U204 | Micron D9LHR 2NHI2 | MT47H64M16HR-3 1 Gb (128 MB) DDR2-667 333 MHz DRAM |
| U205 | TI LC07A 26K C6EC | SN74LVC07A hex buffer/driver with open drain outputs |
| U300 | TI 54140 | TPS54140, 1.5A step down converter |
| U304 | TI TPS 650701 | Single chip power IC for battery applications - can charge Li-ion batteries & has a resistive touch screen interface controller |
| U400 | ODN | Unknown sot23-5 package |
| U401 | NXP LPC932A1FDH | 80C51, 8k flash, 768B RAM, 512B EEPROM - used for the soft power button |
| U403 | TI L393 | LM393 dual voltage comparator |
I asked this question to someone in the know and they said that the fan moves very little air in normal lab conditions, but ramps up when the internal temperature rises (I'm guessing PWM). They also said that the drop in accuracy between the 34461A and the 34460A (the cheapest model without rear connectors and a fan) was largely due to the lack of a fan - with the 60A varying if the side holes are blocked by the handle.
(I think that ACAL may have been added to the 60a and 61a too in the latest firmware.)Based on what I read so far, ACAL is only available on the 34470A model
I asked this question to someone in the know and they said that the fan moves very little air in normal lab conditions, but ramps up when the internal temperature rises (I'm guessing PWM). They also said that the drop in accuracy between the 34461A and the 34460A (the cheapest model without rear connectors and a fan) was largely due to the lack of a fan - with the 60A varying if the side holes are blocked by the handle.
On the 65a/70a the ACAL function should solve that problem nicely. (I think that ACAL may have been added to the 60a and 61a too in the latest firmware.)
(I think that ACAL may have been added to the 60a and 61a too in the latest firmware.)Based on what I read so far, ACAL is only available on the 34470A model
So if it hadn't been sold before May 1st would they have pulled it from the shelf and tossed it into a dumpster? Donated it to homeless people?Or maybe recalibrate it.
So if it hadn't been sold before May 1st would they have pulled it from the shelf and tossed it into a dumpster? Donated it to homeless people?
Tom
......OK, let's just reassign that person to marketing.
But either way, firing someone for a name choice seems a little excessive.
What is up with all the complaints about the fans? Do you guys have bionic hearing or something? Or do you have the meters backed directly against a ultra-noise reflective wall so all the noise is bouncing back to you?
So if it hadn't been sold before May 1st would they have pulled it from the shelf and tossed it into a dumpster? Donated it to homeless people?
Tom
Congrats on the purchase.
I think it has to do with Warranty and Calibration.
When I registered my 34461A, they gave me a warranty expiration 42 (36+6) months from _manufacturing date_. They didn't use (or even ask for) the sale date. So to guarantee their standard 36 month warranty, they have to sell the unit within 6 months of manufacturing. I assume it also helps making sure that units still have a fair amount (I guess that's >= 6 months) left on the 1yr calibration.
I had another experience buying a Keysight HH DMM that we later found out had been sitting on a shelf for 4 years. When I tried to register it, Keysight marked it as out of warranty. Had to return it to the dealer and they got me a fresh one directly from Keysight. I assume dealers are required to sell fresh inventory or return it for refreshing (e.g. recalibration).
I don't know if this 42 month policy is official but that seems to be how it works in practice. It's certainly easier to deal with than trying to track the sale date.
@HighVoltage: I like it, especially the results you are showing from the 2.5000V reference ;D ;D ;D@JohnnyBerg, You are fast!
What was the temperature in the lab? (I suspect 21° ~ 22°)
Got my 65A and am wondering about the bundled probe kit; it has a pair of R-B mini pincers, but only included a black hook. I'm wondering if a red hook might have been missing?The kit doesn't include a red hook, which is a pretty cheap ass thing to do for a $1400 meter.
Got my 65A and am wondering about the bundled probe kit; it has a pair of R-B mini pincers, but only included a black hook. I'm wondering if a red hook might have been missing?The kit doesn't include a red hook, which is a pretty cheap ass thing to do for a $1400 meter.
Any news regarding the new 34461, 34465 firmware? I remeber reading that it was schedulet for release yesterday, or did I dream? :-//
:-+Made by JohnnyBerg of this forum in really good quality!
2.500 V DC reference, make and model if you don't mind?
Any news regarding the new 34461, 34465 firmware? I remeber reading that it was schedulet for release yesterday, or did I dream? :-//
It was supposed to be, but so far they haven't updated their website. You can, however, download the release notes for it (go to the 1.10 firmware release notes and change the version number to 2.08 in the url), so I'm guessing it's just waiting for someone to flick the switch on.
Any news regarding the new 34461, 34465 firmware? I remeber reading that it was schedulet for release yesterday, or did I dream? :-//
It was supposed to be, but so far they haven't updated their website. You can, however, download the release notes for it (go to the 1.10 firmware release notes and change the version number to 2.08 in the url), so I'm guessing it's just waiting for someone to flick the switch on.
I kept the 2.5000 V reference hooked up over night and this is the result I am getting:
It looks to me, that the reference and the 34470A are performing well.
Is there a way to capture the date/time of a reading when doing externally triggering? When I setup external triggering and save the data to a .csv, it captures the start time of the capture, but not a time when each sample is taken. I've looked through the manual and couldn't find a way to do that without resorting to scripting.
Unfortunately the firmware release has been delayed until further notice as the engineers are performing some additional tests to make sure the firmware works as per the expectations
I have had an update about the 34461A's firmware:Quote from: KeysightUnfortunately the firmware release has been delayed until further notice as the engineers are performing some additional tests to make sure the firmware works as per the expectations
This has come from their contact centre, so I think "to make sure the firmware works as per the expectations" means they found a pretty significant bug in it. If they are fixing a bug, then it might delay the release further - as I get the impression that their firmware testing procedure takes a while to run.
I have had an update about the 34461A's firmware:Quote from: KeysightUnfortunately the firmware release has been delayed until further notice as the engineers are performing some additional tests to make sure the firmware works as per the expectations
This has come from their contact centre, so I think "to make sure the firmware works as per the expectations" means they found a pretty significant bug in it. If they are fixing a bug, then it might delay the release further - as I get the impression that their firmware testing procedure takes a while to run.
The update has arrived :-+
2015-03-16 2.08 Update to add additional 34460A/34461A functionality and fix miscellaneous 34460A/34461A/34465A/34470A defects. (http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=NO&nid=-11143.0.00&id=2367633)
I have not installed this yet, I thought I should notify the forum first!
JFG
Here are two pictures after the FW update to v2.08, in comparison to a 33461A with the FW v1.10
Top instrument: 34461A, FW v1.10
Middle instrument: 34461A, FW v2.08
Bottom instrument: 34470A, FW v2.08
It seems the trend-chart received a higher resolution (one more digit) on the 34461A, which is really nice, to say the least.
All three instruments are set to the same setting and on the same voltage source
The dual display works excellent on the 34461A
It seems the trend-chart received a higher resolution (one more digit) on the 34461A, which is really nice, to say the least.
The dual display works excellent on the 34461A
Top one was auto-scaled
Are both of the 61As scaled in the same way? It looks like the top 61A hasn't been auto-scaled.
#dadler
Have you tried the dual display on DCV with ACV as secondary?
JFG
#dadler
Have you tried the dual display on DCV with ACV as secondary?
JFG
Just tried this- it works on screen, but it clicks the relays every couple of seconds and locks up the display for each update. Anyone else seeing this?
Does the same thing with ACV primary and DCV secondary. Manual ranging doesn't help. Is this really implemented by constantly switching relays?
#dadler
Have you tried the dual display on DCV with ACV as secondary?
JFG
Just tried this- it works on screen, but it clicks the relays every couple of seconds and locks up the display for each update. Anyone else seeing this?
Does the same thing with ACV primary and DCV secondary. Manual ranging doesn't help. Is this really implemented by constantly switching relays?
Yes, measuring about 3 seconds, 3 seconds locks and switching relays and the cycle is repeated |O, in ACV no, everything ok
1 After making one o rmore primary measurements for approximately 4 seconds, the DMM makes one
secondary measurement.
Just tried this- it works on screen, but it clicks the relays every couple of seconds and locks up the display for each update. Anyone else seeing this?
Just tried this- it works on screen, but it clicks the relays every couple of seconds and locks up the display for each update. Anyone else seeing this?
Yes, it is the same annoying relay action on the 34470A
Interestingly the much older 34410A does not do this for dual display action.
Hi
Content with the new version of firmware :-+ (34461A)
But I have a question, someone I can clarify why says Time since last calibration: 808 days ??, .......
Buy less than a month ago a representative of Keysight on Argentina
Regards
It is similar on mine - using the web interface you can find out the calibration date, which for mine is showing as "Last Calibration Date: Tuesday, January 1, 2013", despite the fact mine was calibrated on the 19th April 2013.
My guess is that the time since the last calibration requires the meter to store the date in a difference place to the cal string - so next time you get it calibrated, the time display should be correct.
I did some quick capacitance measurements using the 34461A's new feature compared to two other devices.
With the more instruments I get, the less know about the parts I'm measuring.
Notes:
* The 34461 initially measured a 100nF cap at 81nF but it slowly crept up to 85 over a few minutes.
** The DM3068 jumped all over the place with pF range cap.
I did some quick capacitance measurements using the 34461A's new feature compared to two other devices.
With the more instruments I get, the less know about the parts I'm measuring.
I did some quick capacitance measurements using the 34461A's new feature compared to two other devices.
With the more instruments I get, the less know about the parts I'm measuring.
Notes:
* The 34461 initially measured a 100nF cap at 81nF but it slowly crept up to 85 over a few minutes.
** The DM3068 jumped all over the place with pF range cap.
DC + AC is bordering useless |O
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/msg634294/#msg634294 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/msg634294/#msg634294)DC + AC is bordering useless |O
Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?
DC + AC is bordering useless |O
Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?
DC + AC is bordering useless |O
Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?
DC + AC is bordering useless |O
Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?
I would probably also find this fluctuating refresh rate to annoying to use.DC + AC is bordering useless |OPerhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?
Here is a video of how it behaves: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa)
DC + AC is bordering useless |O
Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?
Here is a video of how it behaves: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa)
DC + AC is bordering useless |O
Perhaps I missed some talk on this, but why is it useless?
Here is a video of how it behaves: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/rhipa3yvs3va7n4/AAD9qqdHhSSUO4vlQeKKYIWBa)
I have a new Keithley DMM7510 and it does the same thing if you are measuring DC and have AC as a secondary measurement. The relay clicking is a little faster, however.
Hmm. Darn? I was hoping it was a bug. My Brymen BM869 and Fluke 287 seem to handle DC+AC just fine. Granted, at no where near the same accuracy/resolution. But still. Thanks for the data-point.
Hmm. Darn? I was hoping it was a bug. My Brymen BM869 and Fluke 287 seem to handle DC+AC just fine. Granted, at no where near the same accuracy/resolution. But still. Thanks for the data-point.
I was thinking the same thing (that hand held meters with secondary display seem not to have this issue) and thought perhaps the cause was the resolution. But, turning down the resolution on the DMM7510 does not change things -- I still get that clicking relay.
Hmm. Darn? I was hoping it was a bug. My Brymen BM869 and Fluke 287 seem to handle DC+AC just fine. Granted, at no where near the same accuracy/resolution. But still. Thanks for the data-point.
I was thinking the same thing (that hand held meters with secondary display seem not to have this issue) and thought perhaps the cause was the resolution. But, turning down the resolution on the DMM7510 does not change things -- I still get that clicking relay.
Why would changing the resolution make any difference? The AC and DC take difference paths in the meter, those that click use a relay to change between the paths, those that don't are either using a multiplexer (to silently switch between the paths) or have two measurement circuits - I'm guessing not many, if any at all, have two measurement circuits.
So the question is why did they choose to use a relay rather than a multiplexer? Perhaps, they can achieve a better signal integrity with a relay?
With the 61A, it is an added feature, so you can't expect it not to click, considering changing from DCV to ACV on the front panel causes a relay to click. Whilst the 65A and 70A are designed so the board is common between all of the models (including the 60/61A), they could have potentially used a multiplexer instead of the relay (unless it compromises the measurements). But my guess is that they were never electronically designed for dual measurements (AC/DC wise), but they wanted to add it into the firmware as an extra feature, with the hope that it might be useful.
I think, in their minds at least, if you need to measure both AC and DC constantly, you will have two multimeters set up.
But changing from DC to AC, at least on the 34465a, does not cause any relay click.
But changing from DC to AC, at least on the 34465a, does not cause any relay click.
But changing from DC to AC, at least on the 34465a, does not cause any relay click.
I have been told (in the last hour or so) otherwise - I'm not sure if the relay will click when the meter is in its stopped mode (i.e. not taking measurements), I think it probably would, but it might be a reason why you are not hearing it.
Today I tested how long the 34470A need after turn ON, before it reads stable
The instrument was hooked up to a stable and warmed up 10V reference and then turned on.
Lab temperature was about 21 to 22 °C
Here are my screen shots:
34470A_after-04min.png
Screen shot after 4 min of turn on
34470A_after-37min.png
Screen shot after 37 min of turn on
34461A_Warm.png
Proof, that the reference was pretty stable during the 37 min, shown here with the 34461A in parallel to the 34470A
Only the 34461A was on for several hours already.
It seems that the 34470A needs about 30 min to stabilize the readings and shows reliable numbers.
Have you done this test on your 34461A? And if so, do you care to share the result?
Johan-Fredrik
That is an extremely useful post! It has talked me out of that extra digit, which was pretty much a "that would be neat!" thing.
6 1/2 should be plenty to see drift, things leaking, discharging etc.
I owe you a beer!
It seems the 34461A is a little faster in getting stable and reliable readings
That is an extremely useful post! It has talked me out of that extra digit, which was pretty much a "that would be neat!" thing.
6 1/2 should be plenty to see drift, things leaking, discharging etc.
I owe you a beer!
Especially since the 34461A now shows one more digit after the firmware update, we can see a drift much easier than before. For me that is probably the best feature of all the firmware enhancements.
...first thing I noticed in the new 34461A firmware is that they screwed up the "4" character in the font......I don't like the altered "4" either. ;D
I also noticed that holding down a key, including soft keys, for a couple of seconds brings up the help section for that function! Brilliant!
That's unfortunate -- I was hoping to add the digitize option eventually.
Newark will sell it to you it seems: http://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/3446digu/digitizing-advanced-triggering/dp/30Y4300 (http://www.newark.com/keysight-technologies/3446digu/digitizing-advanced-triggering/dp/30Y4300)
34465A-DIG Digitizing and advanced triggering license
34465A-MEM 2 MB memory license
I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.
There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.
...
b.t.w. Just love reading these long discussion strings. Glad to know there are lots of people with passion regarding electronics and/or test equipment. Sometimes I feel like I'm unusual that find these topics interesting, when nobody understands what I do for a living... but the EEVblog community does!! 8)
I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.
There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.
Mike,I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.
There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.
I'm not working within that division, but can give you perspective that it is common to have two ordering options -- installed or as a separate line item. This is really a factor of the supply chain set up and managing through distributors. Know it isn't optimal, but a reality of managing different supply chain and delivery processes -- there's a different workflow depending on if ordered with instrument or as after-sale option.
However, agree we can make this more clear. I'll give the message to the Product Marketing Engineer and see if we can improve the documentation/website.
Mike Kawasaki (Keysight)
b.t.w. Just love reading these long discussion strings. Glad to know there are lots of people with passion regarding electronics and/or test equipment. Sometimes I feel like I'm unusual that find these topics interesting, when nobody understands what I do for a living... but the EEVblog community does!! 8)
Was it not supposed to be a software option with just a keycode, why does it take weeks? Is Keysight not ready with the software yet and need a new software upgrade before a keycode will work?
I just received the order confirmation for the 3446DIGU user installable option.
There was no explanation, why this option comes in two versions.
Delivery time is estimated 4 to 5 weeks! Actual delivery time might be faster.
I'm not working within that division, but can give you perspective that it is common to have two ordering options -- installed or as a separate line item. This is really a factor of the supply chain set up and managing through distributors. Know it isn't optimal, but a reality of managing different supply chain and delivery processes -- there's a different workflow depending on if ordered with instrument or as after-sale option.
However, agree we can make this more clear. I'll give the message to the Product Marketing Engineer and see if we can improve the documentation/website.
Mike Kawasaki (Keysight)
b.t.w. Just love reading these long discussion strings. Glad to know there are lots of people with passion regarding electronics and/or test equipment. Sometimes I feel like I'm unusual that find these topics interesting, when nobody understands what I do for a living... but the EEVblog community does!! 8)
Time will tell, may be I am getting the code and certificate by email soon.No email so far....
I will let you know, when I get it.
I've since upgraded the firmware to 2.08. Anyone else experience any freezes?
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.
I've since upgraded the firmware to 2.08. Anyone else experience any freezes?
No, I have never experienced that problem.
FW v 2.08 works extremely well for me.
And the fast DIG option also arrived and works really well.
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.
And the fast DIG option also arrived and works really well.Any updates on the DIG option?
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.
It seems the DIG option is only really useful if you get the memory upgrade as well, 50k readings a second fills up fast when you have a 50k readings memory limit.
Finally, here's my story, up to now..
...
Anybody else might also check these faults on his own instrument, even though the first fault is only evident to 34465A/34470A owners, and who were capable of checking 100V and 1kV calibration very stably / precisely.
I expect an analysis from Keysight, and hope for confirmation and repair of the assumed faulty firmware.
I have to say, that the reception of this assumed fault by Keysight is very good (starting with kind assistance by Mike Kawasaki), and the support extremely alert, as I already got another new instrument, and they wish to analyse the "defect" instrument in their development in Malaysia.
Frank
Hi,
I recently reported errors with my new 34465A, which I discussed intensively with the Keysight DMM support engineer, Jim Durr.
...A new FW for the +3ppm failure will be released in the next days / weeks, it's currently undergoing their tests.
Frank
the data logging for the 34465A is puzzeling me.
Keysight specifies 5000 readings/s.
The user manual talks about 1000 readings/s in data logging mode.
Welcome to the forum.
The 34465A and the 34470A both offer 5,000 rdgs/s in standard mode and 50,000 rdgs/s with the fast digitizer option
I'm also looking forward to hearing more about the DIG option...hopefully HighVoltagewill get a chance to write about it soon...And the fast DIG option also arrived and works really well.Any updates on the DIG option?
I will post some test results of the DIG option soon.
It seems the DIG option is only really useful if you get the memory upgrade as well, 50k readings a second fills up fast when you have a 50k readings memory limit.
A new FW for the +3ppm failure will be released in the next days / weeks, it's currently undergoing their tests.
Frank
A new FW for the +3ppm failure will be released in the next days / weeks, it's currently undergoing their tests.
Frank
It is January 2016 now and it doesn't look like the firmware that fixes this has been released yet. Am I correct in my assessment that the 34465A units are still not functioning properly as you described using current firmware 2.09? I am holding off on my purchase until Keysight fixes this issue.
Hi,
Loaded the new firmware on two 34461A, continuity check is stil a mess, morons....
Kind regarts,
Blackdog
Hi Sotos, :-)
I know there is no mention in the release notes about this, still i think morons! :-DD
Kind regarts
Hi,
Loaded the new firmware on two 34461A, continuity check is stil a mess, morons....
I've posted in the Keysight thread - I hope others do the same.
@HighVoltageI just tested this and come to the same results that you have.
I believe you have the DIG option, if so, and you use BenchVue also can you test the maximum sample rate when using BenchVue "Digitize" mode? The reason I ask is that when using firmware 2.09 on my 34465A I could set 50kHz (max) from within the BenchVue Digitize app, but now (using firmware 2.11) the maximum appears to be 25kHz! It is still possible to set 50kHz from the front panel of the meter for "local" control, but when using BenchVue for remote control I get an error that "50kHz is greater than the maximum of 25kHz". (I have both DIG and MEM options).
Could you --- or anyone else --- check and confirm?
@HighVoltageI just tested this and come to the same results that you have.
I believe you have the DIG option, if so, and you use BenchVue also can you test the maximum sample rate when using BenchVue "Digitize" mode? The reason I ask is that when using firmware 2.09 on my 34465A I could set 50kHz (max) from within the BenchVue Digitize app, but now (using firmware 2.11) the maximum appears to be 25kHz! It is still possible to set 50kHz from the front panel of the meter for "local" control, but when using BenchVue for remote control I get an error that "50kHz is greater than the maximum of 25kHz". (I have both DIG and MEM options).
Could you --- or anyone else --- check and confirm?
I also have the DIG and MEM option installed in my 34470A.
Since I have already updated the FW to v2.11, I no longer can say, if this worked in v2.09
Hopefully Keysight will fix this in the FW or in BenchVue.
@HighVoltage
34465A I could set 50kHz (max) from within the BenchVue Digitize app, but now (using firmware 2.11) the maximum appears to be 25kHz! It is still possible to set 50kHz from the front panel of the meter for "local" control, but when using BenchVue for remote control I get an error that "50kHz is greater than the maximum of 25kHz". (I have both DIG and MEM options).
Could you --- or anyone else --- check and confirm?
@HighVoltage
34465A I could set 50kHz (max) from within the BenchVue Digitize app, but now (using firmware 2.11) the maximum appears to be 25kHz! It is still possible to set 50kHz from the front panel of the meter for "local" control, but when using BenchVue for remote control I get an error that "50kHz is greater than the maximum of 25kHz". (I have both DIG and MEM options).
Could you --- or anyone else --- check and confirm?
I have a 465A, with DIG option, which is identical to the 470A in this instance.
I already upgraded to FW 2.10 (yep, I got this inofficial version), when I later also received the DMM PRO version of BenchVue.
This is the prerequisite for 50kHz digitizing over the bus. Also, I got no MEM option.
So I tested this 50kHz Digitizing with a few 100k of sample points.. over GPIB .. and had problems.
The sampling rate was set back to 25kHz in most cases, but that completely transferred all the data directly to BV, so that the internal 50k sample memory is no limitation.
By some odd tries with BV, depending on the pre-configuration on the 465A, which I can't recapitulate at that moment, I really managed to get 50kHz sampling rate directly to BenchVue.
But this was really stuttering.. display of BV freezing, and so on.
But it seemed to have transferred all data in the background.
Anyhow, I'm under the impression that the whole digitizing state machine of the 34465A/470A is too slow, and also that the bus transfer might be too slow.
Maybe BV itself has too much overhead to be optimal for fast digitizing.. although it's been promoted to do the job.
I have to point out, that I have some - successful - experience on the 3458A, digitizing 100kHz @ 16bit / 50kHz @ 18bit..
by using 2 Byte / 200kHz or 4 byte / 200kHz integer format transfers over GPIB.
Also, the former 34411A is optimized for such fast data-rates and - transfers, but this instrument provides a 4byte integer transfer, afaik, whereas the 465A / 470A only have an 8 byte real format.
As the 465A and 470A were promoted as successors to the 411A, I really wonder, if an improvement at that point is necessary, either an optimization of internal data crunching, but also formatting to 2Byte / 4 Byte integer.
A brief look into the different data transfer rate specifications of these instruments is also very instructive..
I already planned to write my own 50kHz digitizing program, w/o the overhead of BenchVue, to improve speed & buffer depth.
Got no time yet, but will report here, as soon as I'm successful.
Frank
I have LabView program for 50k/s digitizing with 34411A, so let me know if it can help.
I build exe, so it is standalone app.
It creates live view, log data to HDD and create live histogram.
For fast readout do not forget uncheck autozero.
Error should be fixed.I build exe, so it is standalone app.
It creates live view, log data to HDD and create live histogram.
For fast readout do not forget uncheck autozero.
@plesa: I tried your program but I get the error shown in attachment when I run it. Do you know what it is? Anything I can provide to help identify the problem?
(There was a second error about the directory C:\temp but that was easily resolved by creating the required directory).
Error should be fixed.
Try <snip>
I can also confirm, that this is not a problem anymore in the latest firmware.
34465A, firmware is 02.08 and I'm wondering if updating is known to fix this...
02.11 looks much better! But maybe still not quite perfect...
(http://www.rockgarden.net/download/trend_plot_2.png)
The average is 10.000022 but assuming the Y axis labels are 10.00000, 10.00010, 10.00019 then the graph is too high. It shows points at 10.000040 and higher, which is above the max value recorded. This is the case even if the bottom tick is actually at 9.99999 - but then we have TWO errors instead of one...
Btw.: Received FW 2.12 today. Problem fixed, but not yet the ACAL issue.
The scaling is 10.00000, 10.00005, 10.00010.Ah, yes, 10.00005 could have been rounded to 10.0001 and this in fact very likely the case.
Btw.: Received FW 2.12 today. Problem fixed, but not yet the ACAL issue.
It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.
Btw.: Received FW 2.12 today. Problem fixed, but not yet the ACAL issue.
It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.
:-+
Btw.: Received FW 2.12 today. Problem fixed, but not yet the ACAL issue.
It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.
We do not appear in the web :-//
Btw.: Received FW 2.12 today. Problem fixed, but not yet the ACAL issue.
It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.
We do not appear in the web :-//
Here we are.
http://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/thread.jspa?threadID=40301&tstart=0 (http://www.keysight.com/owc_discussions/thread.jspa?threadID=40301&tstart=0)
And here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/34461a-problem-after-updating-to-firmware-a_02_09-behavior-in-continuity-test/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/34461a-problem-after-updating-to-firmware-a_02_09-behavior-in-continuity-test/)
It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.
It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.
Well, your wish is my command..
Jim Durr just confirmed, that they've already solved this known problem, and it will be on the next FW release.
Watch for the Keysight Technology Support site, he promised to post that information there, too.
Frank
Dr Frank to the rescue, thank you sir.
It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.
Well, your wish is my command..
Jim Durr just confirmed, that they've already solved this known problem, and it will be on the next FW release.
Watch for the Keysight Technology Support site, he promised to post that information there, too.
Frank
Dr Frank to the rescue, thank you sir.
Please, that's not my merit at all.. I just asked Jim Durr about this issue, and he told me that they already had solved it..
Anyhow, it will take some time for the official release, due to their strict Q.A. system, and PV process, i think
It's nice to see they can be very reactive to the bugs that you find. Please do the 34461A owners a favor and ask them to fix the continuity bug.
Well, your wish is my command..
Jim Durr just confirmed, that they've already solved this known problem, and it will be on the next FW release.
Watch for the Keysight Technology Support site, he promised to post that information there, too.
Frank
Why it’s not for everybody?
Another thing they could fix is automatic filename increments for screendumps. I see some use for making screendumps from the various plots but having to input a filename and selecting the USB stick first is a tedious process.Yes, I totally agree and I have sent this request to Keysight a while back.
Have I just missed it, or is there actually NOT a simple way to grab a screen capture via Ethernet?
import socket
class instrument(object):
def __init__(self, ip_addr, web=False):
if web:
port=5042
else:
port=5025
self.socket=socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM)
self.socket.connect((ip_addr, port))
self.socket.setsockopt(socket.IPPROTO_TCP, socket.TCP_NODELAY, 1)
self.socket.settimeout(10)
def write(self, msg):
self._write(msg+'\n')
def _write(self, msg):
self.socket.send(msg.encode('UTF-8'))
def read(self):
resp=''
while True:
resp+=self._read().decode('UTF-8')
if len(resp)>0 and resp[-1]=='\n':
return resp[:-1]
def read_dlb(self, UTF_decode=True):
# definite length block
# starts with a '#', followed by a single digit representing the number of characters
# used to represent the data size, which is followed by the data
# get header
header_size=self._read(2).decode('UTF-8')
if header_size[0]!='#':
raise ValueError('DLB missing header, data returned {0}'.format(header_size))
header_size=int(header_size[1])
# get size
dlb_size=self._read(header_size)
dlb_size=int(dlb_size.decode('UTF-8'))
# get data
data=self._read(dlb_size)
while len(data)<dlb_size:
data+=self._read(dlb_size-len(data))
# clear new line
self._read(1)
if UTF_decode:
data=data.decode('UTF-8')
return data
def _read(self, buf_size=4092):
return self.socket.recv(buf_size)
def ask(self, msg):
self.write(msg)
return self.read()
def take_screenshot(self):
""" Takes a screenshot from the instrument, using the current format.
This returns the data for the caller to write to a file
"""
# request the image
self.write('HCOP:SDUM:DATA?')
return self.read_dlb(False)
Any ETA on the 2.12 public release?
Hello Frank,
for the excellent support of their quality department they should have given at least a brand new 34470A to you.
(or perhaps the still in development? 8.5 Digit 34480A)
With best regards
Andreas
Hi Frank,
Very nice data and testing, thanks for all the efforts! May you share few more details on linearity testing methods? You measured 5440 output with both meters and calculated difference between 3458A and 344xx readings? In return I'm interested of doing similar test with other meters, like K2001/K2002.
For the 3458A, you see a typical, quite narrow Gaussian distribution for the 10V measurement.Was this measure at NPLC=100? Did you use auto zero?
At 10x magnification, an irregular binning appears, with 7 different values per 0.01ppm, which gives about 17.5nV median resolution, or 0.00175 ppm, nearly 9 digits.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=206549;image)
Frank
Was this measure at NPLC=100? Did you use auto zero?
Have you calculated the minimum standard deviation(or allan deviation) for a consecutive 100 readings?
Free memory upgrade for FG and DMM
www.keysight.com/find/remember_bench (http://www.keysight.com/find/remember_bench)
Eligible Models:
Performance DMM : 34465A, 34470A
Function Generator : 33511B, 33512B, 33521B, 33522B, 33611A, 33612A, 33621A, 33622A
Purchase Period : 1st Jan 2016 until 30th Sept 2016
Registration Period : 1st Jan 2016 until 31st Oct 2016
Form below valid for US , Canada, Latin America. Use the black/white globe in top right of this page to select your country.
when I go to actually request the upgrade I get (from keysight)
Doesn't work for me either, and I'm in the U.S.
However, knowing this is Keysight, you probably need to make sure to use Internets Exploder 9 on Windows 7.
Has anyone heard anything regarding the new firmware? Keysight had suggested it would take 4 weeks or so for the testing but it has been closer to 6 or 7 without a release.
After 3 weeks they finally approved my free 2M memory upgrade. :)When did you buy your instrument?
They email me the software entitlement certificate. I had to login and download the lic file, copy it over to an USB stick and install it on the meter.
Anyone any idea if the free memory upgrade will come from the factory with new units or will I still have to register it once my DMM arrives?
Also asked for a quote for the digitizer upgrade (3446DIG) to see if they'll include the memory upgrade with it...Well, that didn't work at all - a reseller responded to this with a quote for a 34465A, not the option I actually asked for, or any answer to if they can include the memory upgrade with it. :--
I hope that Keysight will not take too long to supply the MEM key then :pIn Germany, you get the MEM key overnight from a Keysight distributor by email and the real paper certificate is mailed in an envelope.
As said I'm a little tight on space so I made this custom shelf to fit the DMM. Only 2mm of clearance on each side so it's a perfect fit without removing the handle.
(http://i.imgur.com/WdLkEo7.jpg)
For everyone else: I have noticed a small problem with the Trend Chart (firmware A.02.14).
When I select a Time Window of 5 Minutes and then switch back to 1 Minute to acquire a more detailed view of recent events the values from 5 Minutes will disappear when I switch back to it. Really?
But if I select "All" instead of "Recent" then I can see a full view since the beginning of when I began taking measurements. But of course this doesn't help when I have several hours of measurements already (the view becomes too compact).
Is there any way to prevent the view of various Time Window ranges from disappearing when moving up and down between the ranges?
Thank you for any help anyone is able to provide!
I am not that impressed, he is not thinking ahead. Next year he want some other instrument and there is no place to put it.Just take the bumpers and handles off.
The instrument has to be on top, then you can stack them:
(http://lygte-info.dk/pic/cpf3/DSC_6332.jpg)
Just take the bumpers and handles off.
Today my Keysight 34470A arrived...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=142095;image)
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.:-DD
Top one was auto-scaled
Are both of the 61As scaled in the same way? It looks like the top 61A hasn't been auto-scaled.
It is confirmed by the upper, lower values on the scale to the left
Upper (max) value: 5.000 5 V
Lower (min) value: 5.000 4 V
On the old firmware there was no more resolution in between
Adding the extra digit added the extra resolution on the vertical axis.
The new FW v2.08 shows now on the left of the trend chart:
Upper (max) value: 5.000 48 V
Lower (min) value: 5.000 47 V
This is really great and something I did not expect from a firmware upgrade
It seems like we are now having the following resolution on the trend chart:
34461A, FW1.10 +/- 100 uV Resolution
34461A, FW2.08 +/- 10 uV Resolution
34470A, FW2.08 +/- 1 uV Resolution
Today my Keysight 34470A arrived...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=142095;image)
Same "axis numbering" problem on my brandnew 34465A:
2.5 , 2.5000 , 2.5001 - WTF? :palm:
Isn't there enough place for:
2.49995 , 2.50000 , 2.50005
Yes, you're right. And it shows, keysight cannot even round correctly, they just truncated the values... |OToday my Keysight 34470A arrived...
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/keysight's-new-34465a-(6-5-digit)-and-34470a-(7-5-digit)-bench-multimeters/?action=dlattach;attach=142095;image)
Same "axis numbering" problem on my brandnew 34465A:
2.5 , 2.5000 , 2.5001 - WTF? :palm:
Isn't there enough place for:
2.49995 , 2.50000 , 2.50005
It's actually...
2.500 10
2.500 05
2.500 00
But, yeah. Agreed on the :palm: for rounding and truncating axis labels in the first place. You're not the first to trip over this!
Yes, you're right. And it shows, keysight cannot even round correctly, they just truncated the values... |O
Is anybody here, who has a good contact to Keysight/Agilent/HP, who could ask for solving this bug?
BTW: How can I store a screenshot of the instrument's display?You can save it to a screenshot or use Benchvue or over the LXI web interface.
No, maybe "round to nearest even" is used, you are right, but...
Yes, you're right. And it shows, keysight cannot even round correctly, they just truncated the values... |O
Shure?
Most probably their math package uses "round to nearest even" to avoid propagation of rounding errors e.g. in statistics mode....on axis numbering, same result as shown in screenshot (2.5 , 2.5000 , 2.5001 is nonsense).
...I would wanted to have the StdDv shown in engineering notation or proper units and not so many zeros.+1
Like the 34410A / 34411A has it shown.
5.67 uV on the 43410A instead of 0.000,005 V
Hopefully we will see this in a future update as well.
OK. I tried to save to USB and got only raw data...QuoteBTW: How can I store a screenshot of the instrument's display?You can save it to a screenshot or use Benchvue or over the LXI web interface.
It is pretty easy and works well.
Same "axis numbering" problem on my brandnew 34465A:
2.5 , 2.5000 , 2.5001 - WTF? :palm:
Isn't there enough place for:
2.49995 , 2.50000 , 2.50005
It's actually...
2.500 10
2.500 05
2.500 00
But, yeah. Agreed on the :palm: for rounding and truncating axis labels in the first place. You're not the first to trip over this!
I've seen a better solution for that space vs. resolution problem, I think, it was on the KEI 7510, i.e. the 'base value' is displayed to one or two decimal places somewhere on a major tick, and the major ticks divisor is displayed separately at the top.
BTW: How can I store a screenshot of the instrument's display?
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WaJL7PUbmSk/VdSlENErEZI/AAAAAAAAZ9c/IESAIbt5ZYk/s1600/image5-747241.JPG)
Thank you!BTW: How can I store a screenshot of the instrument's display?Press <Shift> DISPLAY, and then there should be an item inside the file management items, labelled as screen shot.
At first, yes, there is not enough space to display all these digits.OK...?
2.499 95 / 2.500 00 / 2.500 05
OK...?
I had no problem to find space for the additional (one) digit, see attachment.
(The red marked distance is unchanged, but could be reduced, too.)
I dunno. That looks like ass, IMHO. With a wide-aspect display like this, it certainly wouldn't have done any harm to spend a few horizontal pixels replicating the +5.04 at every graticule line.
Graph rendering isn't a ripe subject for "innovation" unless you're absolutely certain you're improving things. If this labeling method didn't catch on in the 400 years since Descartes, what are the odds that it's the right thing to do now?
Also, what's going on in the last few lines, where the scale goes from .184 ... .096 ... .008 ... .920? Am I supposed to mentally apply the "+5.04" prefix to all of these? That's a worse bug than anything in the Keysight screenshots.
I realize this isn't a Keithley thread, but if anyone would like to see similar screenshots from the k7510 for comparison I'd be happy to post them.That would be great.. I would appreciate seeing examples from your instrument, here.
For such small differences, I found a better approach. By using the Math Scale function, you might either substract the average value (B = 2.500 000V), with a resolution of 1µV, and the window is now controllable in Center and Span to fractions of µV. Note also, that the instrument displays down to the resolution of the A/D, about 8 digits, or 100nV.Ooh, that's nice. Why didn't I think of this! :-+
For sure, it can do something like this, expressing the whole statistics in ppm.. gives much bigger resolution for the StD value..
Is anybody here, who has a good contact to Keysight/Agilent/HP, who could ask for solving this bug?
Congratulations on your 34465A and nice comparison to the 3458A.
What 10 k Resistor did you base this on, to be so perfect on the mark?
Received the 34465A today. After ACAL it agrees within 1ppm with our HP3458A Opt002 meter (calibrated in January) on my self-made 10K reference and on 7.16V from LTZ1000 . Quite impressive for both meters to agree that nicely.
Cheers
Alex
Received the 34465A today. After ACAL it agrees within 1ppm with our HP3458A Opt002 meter (calibrated in January) on my self-made 10K reference and on 7.16V from LTZ1000 . Quite impressive for both meters to agree that nicely.
Cheers
Alex
Hello Alex,
congrats on your new 34465A.
Your 10V / 10k check is to be expected, and proves that it arrived in undisturbed condition.
Check the Test Report of your instrument.. it has been adjusted and verified to < 1ppm uncertainty in DCV and Ohm modes.
As you probably received it within about 3 weeks, and it had not been powered on in between, practically no drift occurred.
So you might take these readings as an additional calibration verification of your 3458A, about +/- 1ppm after ACAL.´
The difference in noise levels of the 34465A vs. the 3458A arise directly from the LM399H vs. their internal LTZ1000A references.
Your 0.7ppm drift of the 3458A vs. the external LTZ1000 is quite high, maybe your room temperature changes too much; <= 0.2°C change is required.
Frank
..
1) The calibration date on the 34465A is 30th of June, so over 90 days ago :( .
..
Cheers
Alex
The DCV drift is dependent on the instruments uptime. If it's not used so often, it may as well have its initial uncertainty.
Mine is from about June 2015, I think, and it's still within about 1ppm.
HighVoltage's 34470A, which is running 24/365, showed a drift of +5ppm only, after about 10 months.
This is also typical for the LTZ1000A reference, at 95°C.
The Ohm ranges, as their components are running on RT, won't drift as much, and the 34470A was also found to be within 1ppm for 10kOhm.
So your observation is an indicator, that your instrument is still in very good condition; 3 months of operation is nothing.
Ah yes, you should try to get the 2MB option for free.. I also got it this year, despite mine was an elder one.
Frank
...
Same procedure apply for 3458A as well, long cold instruments "lose" their stability and need to run awhile to get back to normal stability. Few cases over EEVBlog nuts already confirmed this.
Does your statement refer to the regular LTZ1000A references,@95°C oven temperature?Hm, you definately right. I referenced to SN18 for standard A9, and did not tested on pimped ones. My box runs 24/7 since repair done.
I am logging the voltage again just to see if the measured value would go up now when the lab temperature is increasing.Nice data on your 34465A and comparison to the 3458A.
Cheers
Alex
Can you also log the temperature during this next test?
Thank you. One interesting observation - a repeated ACAL on the 34465A returns a somewhat different measured values for LTZ1000, with around 1-1.5ppm variations (easily visible on the averaged 7.5 digit value). My suspicion is that variation is due to the LM399 noise, which is about 1ppm p-p.
Cheers
Alex
The ACAL mechanism of the 34465A/470A is not as precise as the one of the 3458A, as Scott Stever last year explained, in a discussion about that feature (it also cannot do a full re-calibration, of course).
So it might as well arise from the basic ACAL-principle.
The ACAL mechanism of the 34465A/470A is not as precise as the one of the 3458A, as Scott Stever last year explained, in a discussion about that feature (it also cannot do a full re-calibration, of course).
So it might as well arise from the basic ACAL-principle.
The ACAL on 34465A is also very quick, which means it is based on a spot reference value and not on an averaged one. I would probably be happier with a somewhat slower but more consitent ACAL. It is still accurate to 1-2ppm though, which for that meter class (and price) is very good.
Cheers
Alex
I didn't read all of the documentation, but does the 34470A average at some point > 10 NPLC?I was not aware of this and I am not sure if this is the case.
@HighVoltage 'n all what is the best way of connecting multiple GPIB to the same USB or RS232?
I've seen some images of male/female cable connected one on the other and then connected to a box, then the box to the PC.
I assume, that there might be a switch mode power supply or similar in your room, or your resistor is not properly connected.
What's this strange resistor, you are using? Didn't find it anywhere.
Do you have a photo of your setup?
Frank
Here is a graph with a 2 hour run using my LTC450C 10K "standard" (measured by HP3458 about a week ago and by Keysight 34465A today) . Overnight variations were even larger - about 25ppm p-p. Is this a typical behaviour for the 34465A ?
Cheers
Alex
Just for completeness, here's another 12h run, after ACAL, and fully warmed up.
Apart from the initial fluctuations, the reading is stable to < 0.5ppm over 12h, StD measures 0.16ppm.
That's as should be, very nice.
For narrowing the error, I propose to check the front/rear switch by engaging it several times, and if this fault also occurs on the rear jacks.
Then, you might check the stability of the 10kOhm current source in 4W mode with another DMM, I think it's 100uA.
Frank
For 34465A, 24-hour stability of 10K range is +/-25 ppm. Value of +/-35 ppm is valid for 34460A - they even don't know specs of their own products, lol.
Btw. I wonder where you found specs on the noise performance of resistance ranges? I can't find them...
Hi Frank,
.. . May I use your graph in my correspondence with Keysight as an example of a healthy 34465A readings?
Cheers
Alex
Hi Frank,
.. . May I use your graph in my correspondence with Keysight as an example of a healthy 34465A readings?
Cheers
Alex
Of course.
Arguing with the RMS noise is quite difficult with Keysight, as everything is inside specification, even your fluctuating measurements.
Therefore, a comparison like this is good, better if you really find an issue like an unstable current source (check also other ranges), or a bad switch.
I can't complain about KS, they reacted very quickly to my findings about the 100V/1kV range errors, and even replaced the instrument for analysis.
In my case, these errors were also inside specification. James Durr did a great job.
Frank
@Alex
Aha, I see now ... but if I read the table correctly 1 ppm noise adder value refers to NPLC=1. It is 0 ppm for NPLC=100. (Do they really mean that there is 0 ppm noise with NPLC=100?)
As Dr. Frank wrote, 25 ppm variations you observe do not violate +/-25 ppm 24hour specs, so I think the only change is to blame ohm noise performance of your unit...
Have you measured what the short-term rms noise (sdev) of your unit is?
Arguing with the RMS noise is quite difficult with Keysight, as everything is inside specification, even your fluctuating measurements.
Therefore, a comparison like this is good, better if you really find an issue like an unstable current source (check also other ranges), or a bad switch.
Hi Frank,
Thank you, your graph and some additional information from me did convince Keysight and I'll get a replacement meter from Farnellsometime soontomorrow. I've tried rear terminals and other resistance ranges today and get roughly the same "jumpy" results. Here is the graph from real terminals for 2.5 hours. Let's hope the replacement would be OK.
Cheers
Alex
;D ;D ;D ;D
are you able to measure the current source in 4W mode? I'd be interested in this failure mode, as KS probably won't give a feedback.
What a huge difference between those two 3465A meters. Great that Keysight solved this for you.
But also a surprise, that your first meter has left the factory like that.
Keysight have terminated their offer of a free MEM upgrade for the Truevolt DMMs.
Anyone know if this is a returning offer?
I'm buying mine NOW from Farnell Norway :(
It looks like our 34465A is failing the noise spec on 10K. I'll talk to Keysight on Monday. It would be nice if somebody with the 34465A would repeat this resistance test (10K, 100NPLC, 10 sec logging interval).
Cheers
Alex
An update. I've received the replacement 34465A last week and it was on continuously for about 100 hours so far. I've run a log over the weekend measuring the LTZ1000 and the meter drifted about 4ppm down, however ACAL this morning returned the results to within 1ppm of measured by HP3458A previously. The resistance ranges are now nice and stable, the attached graph shows 1 hour log for two 34465A and HP3458A - all for NPLC 100 measuring my 10K LTC450C reference resistor (taken at different times, obviously, but with a fairly constant temperature in the lab for each run). Keysight UK was very helpful in resolving this problem. I aslo should get the 3458A Opt 002 back from them later this week so I will have a freshly calibrated reference.
Cheers
Alex
Try put the cap/resistor under test right in the input jacks, compared to at the end of the test leads.
I find the LSD moving around so much on 34461's on resistance and worse on capacitance, I had to laugh at all those supposed extra digits.
You new lab might have more noise/different grounding and layout.
As far as I investigated, something for others to keep an eye on, these meters use a mains SMPS and associated Y-capacitors.
So they generate their own common-mode noise- that seemed to be what I was seeing.
I would be curious if it's the lab/setup noise or the meter's have a sensitivity to RF.
As far as I investigated, something for others to keep an eye on, these meters use a mains SMPS and associated Y-capacitors.
So they generate their own common-mode noise- that seemed to be what I was seeing.
Really?! After the cooling fan roar, as my first multimeter ever with a fan >:( I assumed Keysight went SMPS for small size.
This would be good news. So it probably has a line-filter with Y-caps then.
After seeing a simple capacitance measurement noisy and then perfectly quiet with no test leads, I wrongly assumed these have mains-SMPS contributing noise. What else could it be, as no other gear in the lab suffers from this.
Bought two 34461A's to replace aging 34401's and thoroughly disappointed. Would not purchase again.
Sorry, I am not a fanboy of these meters.
Is it just me, or is it surprisingly hard to find information on counts / resolution of the new Keysight meters? It doesn't look like they've published this information in the datasheets or user manuals for the 34461A/34465A/34475A.In almost all situations the accuracy is much worse than the available resolution, so most users are not concerned with this as the readout resolution is excessive in their use cases (you can manually reduce the number of digits if desired). Otherwise there is a short section towards the end of the data sheet showing the tradeoff between digits and integration time.
In almost all situations the accuracy is much worse than the available resolution, so most users are not concerned with this as the readout resolution is excessive in their use cases (you can manually reduce the number of digits if desired). Otherwise there is a short section towards the end of the data sheet showing the tradeoff between digits and integration time.
I think you've come to the conclusion yourself, a higher model might only be improved in some areas and not all. This is common across multimeter series both bench and handheld.In almost all situations the accuracy is much worse than the available resolution, so most users are not concerned with this as the readout resolution is excessive in their use cases (you can manually reduce the number of digits if desired). Otherwise there is a short section towards the end of the data sheet showing the tradeoff between digits and integration time.
Ok, that makes sense. Maybe this is a dumb question, but given that the accuracy specs across many ranges are the same between the 34465A and 34470A, why pay for the extra digits?
Edit: I should clarify, I was looking at the current ranges. The voltage measuring accuracy of the 70A is considerably better than the 65A, so I assume that's what folks are paying for.
Ok, that makes sense. Maybe this is a dumb question, but given that the accuracy specs across many ranges are the same between the 34465A and 34470A, why pay for the extra digits?
Edit: I should clarify, I was looking at the current ranges. The voltage measuring accuracy of the 70A is considerably better than the 65A, so I assume that's what folks are paying for.
Your also paying for the calibration with the 34470A.
Your also paying for the calibration with the 34470A.
..which is identical for both instruments.
Market segmentation is great and all, but be careful with creating artificial market segmentation when your primary market is engineers. In addition to leaving a bad taste in their mouths, they tend to find a way to hack around it anyway.
I totally agree with you, but... Most equipment manufacturers target at corporate sector where it works a bit differently. Companies don't care about cost of equipment as long as it pays back.
PS I've seen people claiming "one repair justifies a new $500 soldering station".That is partially true, a lot of stuff gets thrown away if it is not under warranty because often there is nobody that could (legally!) do the repairs and make it economic (it doesn't make a sense for a senior engineer waste their time doing repairs).
In dmm noise thread,High Voltage posted comparsion where both 34470 and keithley 7510 set to 10V DCV range and he is measuring warmed up stable reference.It shows 7510 gets stable in 40 seconds while 34470 needs 20 minutes to reach stability due to warm up.
Can someone do the same tests? I am specificaly curious if 34465 with its lm399 reference warms up faster.
DMM7510 has the potential to be a great meter. Its temperature coefficient is specified at 0.15ppm/degree, a factor of 10 better than for 34470. That is probably the reason it reaches steady state much faster. In my tests for dynamic temperature changes at 1000 sec it was about a factor of 2 better than 34470. That comes out to TC of about 0.4ppm/degree for 7510, worse than spec, although its not exactly the same kind of test. DMM7510 also has much lower noise on 100mV and 1V ranges. The interface is nicer and it has more capabilities.
That is why its so frustrating that the 7510 autozero firmware problem has not been solved. Also the interface is still buggy (my latest success in crashing it involved using temperature secondary measurement). So there is no clear winner.
Another very important thing to consider is service. (within a warranty or outside of warranty). Try to get any kind of service with Keithley / Tektronix is a horrible experience, to say the least. If it comes to service alone, I would never buy a Keithley / Tektronix instrument again.
That is why its so frustrating that the 7510 autozero firmware problem has not been solved. Also the interface is still buggy (my latest success in crashing it involved using temperature secondary measurement). So there is no clear winner.
How linear are the 34460,61,65 and 70 adc? I read on 65,70 brochure that they are 0.5ppm.Keithley 7510 datasheet shows 1ppm + 1ppm of range.
1. What is adc linearity of 34460?
2. What is adc linearity of 34461?
3. What is adc linearity of 34465?
4. What is adc linearity of 34470?
5. What is this "1ppm +1ppm of range"? I dont understand it,how is it different to just 2ppm linearity?
edit: I found another brochure,this one is from Testequity and it says 61 = 2ppm,65 = 1ppm,70 = 0.5ppm
Interesting,I thought they 65 and 70 have same adc,I tought only difference is that 70 have ltz1000,correct me if I am wrong but voltage reference doesnt have anything to do with adc linearity?
http://www.testequity.com/documents/pdf/keysight/34461A-34465A-34470A-ad.pdf (http://www.testequity.com/documents/pdf/keysight/34461A-34465A-34470A-ad.pdf)
34460 isnt mentioned there,what is its linearity?
For those that did a warmup test of the Keysight meters, was the test from a cold start (plug it in), or from a warm start (in standby for some time and then turned on)?
Does the 7510 have a standby mode like the Keysight meters?
Does the 7510 have a standby mode like the Keysight meters?
The Keysight meters (DMM) all do NOT have a standby mode!
The new ones do have a SW switch only, instead of a mechanical mains switch.
So even if the StandBy LED is lit, they are completely cold inside.
No benefit that I have found. Except the Keysight is showing a little yellow light, so you know the mains is plugged in.
Interesting. The Keysight manual refers to it as standby mode. What is the point of doing it the way they do?
I am curious why warm-up and start-up time are important in your application? Or is it just a measure of general temperature sensitivity?
What absolute measurements are you making of that accuracy? Most devices under test themselves will need time to thermally soak before they are stable enough to have the meter dominate the error.I am curious why warm-up and start-up time are important in your application? Or is it just a measure of general temperature sensitivity?
Becose I like to turn off my multimeter completly when I am done using it.Its big deal if I have to wait half hour every time I turn it on,especialy when 7510 exist that gets ready in 60 seconds.
Its not so much important,its more like I want to know the truth about how these instruments act,how they work,what to expect.Imagine that I have multimeter that warms up in 1 minute but I dont use it till 30 minutes after start becose I expect it to be still warming up,thats bad becose it waste time and electricity,or imagine I start using multimeter 1 minute after start and get bad readings becose I am not aware its warming up long time,knowing exact warm up behavior of the multimeter is is in my opinion good thing to know.
Hello Fonograph
Sorry, I dont have a Keysight 34465A (not yet) but I compared here a 34461A (LM399) with a 34470A (LTZ1000). And there is almost no difference in warmup time.
- 34461A, increase of 210 mV during 30 min warmup
- 34470A, increase of 172 mV during 30 min warmup
So, I would suspect the 34465A to be in the same range.
It should work with both 34465A and 34470A, I tested it on WIN 7 64bit and it downloads 2Mpts in just 35 seconds. As a bonus I've added a few graph tweaking tools like deleting points and adding calibration factors for use with shunts and other stuff.
Please let me know if I have to change something.
Best,
0xfede
BTW, your little program is faster than BenchVue!
0xfede
Your program works perfectly on both of my 34470A but not on the 34465A and not on the 34461A
May be you can extend it to those instruments as well?
Thanks for the hard work.
Works nicely with my 34465A.
However, the screen print is not complete. See pic.
Even so, the saved pic is complete. OK for now.
On my 34461A firmware A.02.14-02.40-02.14-00.49-01-01 I Get the following dialog box:
[Connection error]
"Unknown Device:
Agilent
Technologies, 34461A MY5320xxxx A.02.14-02.40-02.14-00.49-01-01"
I hope this can point you to the right part of your program, so you can resolve this little glitch ;-)
Johan-Fredrik
I can now download any number of empty sample values (read absolute 0), but the error message is gone. Do I need to put the instrument in a different view mode? I have the same reading in 2W, 4W, Volt DC and Volt AC, what am I doing wrong? The number of samples is according to the time since last download.
Johan-Fredrik
I just sent you a link to my export csv file, the file is seemingly correct (Measuring a 5V ref.) but the program only read 0 (zero) even when reading back the export file.
Johan-Fredrik
It works, and thank you for this "Modified with the culture forced to CultureInfo.CreateSpecificCulture("en-US")"
Johan-Fredrik
After downloading the data, the trigger mode changes from "Automatic" to "Immediate".
Would it be possible to leave the DMM in the automatic mode so that it continues to collect data?
Hi 0xfede,
Tested your software on one of my 34461A DMM's and it works! :-DD
Sometimes its crashes and probely it has someting to do with the function "Release instrument after download" half of the time does not work properly.
Also the pictureviewer is not showing the hole pigture, if i save the picture and show it with Irfanview, than its OK.
Thanks for the program, keep op de good work! :D
....................
Kind regards,
Blackdog
I regret to inform you that the "release instrument after download" feature works perfect on my
34461A A.02.14-02.40-02.14-00.49-01-01 (latest firmware)
22.11.2017 22:32 43 008 KEYSIGHT DMM plot.exe
28.08.2014 13:56 296 448 ZedGraph.dll
Johan-Fredrik
The release after download only works from [Download Data] and not [Download Screenshot] but the latest version now have full screenshot on screen.
Telnet on port 5024 or 5025 when testing commands?
Johan-Fredrik
Hi,
Nice, PictureViewer shows the hole picture before saving the picture!
Just another picture to show my thanks ;D
......
Kind regards,
Bram
I'm open to suggestion :)
I'm open to suggestion :)
Reading the memory like in your program is basically a good idea, in particular when
wanting to save data after a measurement run has been completed.
Maybe you would want to log the data into your graph in real time (i.e. full remote control)
by sending the command "Read?" to the 3446x every second and recording its response.
This would give you control over the timebase. My Profilab program does this. But this program
can only communicate via a virtual COM port on the PC since this program does not offer a ready made
tcp communication module. :(.
I just sold my 34461A and want to replace it with the 34465A. Is there a preferred authorized dealer to go through and are there any discounts that anybody is aware of. Any other buying tips?
TestEquity gave me 5% off on a Keysight scope and also went out of their way on an Agilent trade-in so I am inclined to buy the DMM from them as well. I expect them to call sometime in the next few days.I've had good experience with TestEquity, and bought my 34465A from them. Ask for 10% off MSRP.
TestEquity gave me 5% off on a Keysight scope and also went out of their way on an Agilent trade-in so I am inclined to buy the DMM from them as well. I expect them to call sometime in the next few days.I've had good experience with TestEquity, and bought my 34465A from them. Ask for 10% off MSRP.
TestEquity gave me 5% off on a Keysight scope and also went out of their way on an Agilent trade-in so I am inclined to buy the DMM from them as well. I expect them to call sometime in the next few days.I've had good experience with TestEquity, and bought my 34465A from them. Ask for 10% off MSRP.
Great tip on the 10%. I got an email offer from TesEquity today for the 2018 Keysight calendar. I filled out the form indicating that I was interested in buying a 34465A. Maybe that will trigger a call. The sales engineer used to call me occasionally but I have not heard from him for a while. Maybe it is because I moved to a different region.
TestEquity gave me 5% off on a Keysight scope and also went out of their way on an Agilent trade-in so I am inclined to buy the DMM from them as well. I expect them to call sometime in the next few days.I've had good experience with TestEquity, and bought my 34465A from them. Ask for 10% off MSRP.
Great tip on the 10%. I got an email offer from TesEquity today for the 2018 Keysight calendar. I filled out the form indicating that I was interested in buying a 34465A. Maybe that will trigger a call. The sales engineer used to call me occasionally but I have not heard from him for a while. Maybe it is because I moved to a different region.
Today I ordered the 34465A with DIG & MEM options. I got the 10% off just by asking for a quote. I told them to not install the options just in case a Free MEM promotion appears and I can return the license. However, since they seem to be getting only batches of 35 meters, and I am in the second upcoming batch, there is probably no reason for a promotion at this point. I will probably not get delivery until mid-April. It will be a race between the 121GW and 34465A...
Well, that is interesting. I had checked the Keysight eBay store several times and never saw a 34465A or 34470A.
This 34470A is $621 more than the new 34465A I have on order. Maybe I would have gone for it, but the 30 warranty is a bit worrisome, and I certainly have no need for the GPB option (I never want to use GPIB again...).
I would not expect Keysight to haggle on eBay Store prices, but maybe they do?
Well, that is interesting. I had checked the Keysight eBay store several times and never saw a 34465A or 34470A.
This 34470A is $621 more than the new 34465A I have on order. Maybe I would have gone for it, but the 30 warranty is a bit worrisome, and I certainly have no need for the GPB option (I never want to use GPIB again...).
I would not expect Keysight to haggle on eBay Store prices, but maybe they do?
They will always negotiate a little. The 34470A uses the LTZ1000A which is nice to have.
Well, that is interesting. I had checked the Keysight eBay store several times and never saw a 34465A or 34470A.
This 34470A is $621 more than the new 34465A I have on order. Maybe I would have gone for it, but the 30 warranty is a bit worrisome, and I certainly have no need for the GPB option (I never want to use GPIB again...).
I would not expect Keysight to haggle on eBay Store prices, but maybe they do?
They will always negotiate a little. The 34470A uses the LTZ1000A which is nice to have.
They absolutely do take offers. I have purchased several items from them, never at asking price. Based on experience, I'd be surprised if they don't give you at least 10% off.
I certainly have no need for the GPB option (I never want to use GPIB again...).
I certainly have no need for the GPB option (I never want to use GPIB again...).
I don't think this a 'real' option... unless they've changed something the 34465A and 34470A both come with internal GPIB whether you want it or not. :)
TestEquity gave me 5% off on a Keysight scope and also went out of their way on an Agilent trade-in so I am inclined to buy the DMM from them as well. I expect them to call sometime in the next few days.I've had good experience with TestEquity, and bought my 34465A from them. Ask for 10% off MSRP.
Great tip on the 10%. I got an email offer from TesEquity today for the 2018 Keysight calendar. I filled out the form indicating that I was interested in buying a 34465A. Maybe that will trigger a call. The sales engineer used to call me occasionally but I have not heard from him for a while. Maybe it is because I moved to a different region.
Today I ordered the 34465A with DIG & MEM options. I got the 10% off just by asking for a quote. I told them to not install the options just in case a Free MEM promotion appears and I can return the license. However, since they seem to be getting only batches of 35 meters, and I am in the second upcoming batch, there is probably no reason for a promotion at this point. I will probably not get delivery until mid-April. It will be a race between the 121GW and 34465A...
And the winner is the 34465A. It arrived today, a full week ahead of schedule. It seems that TesEquity got more delivered in the first batch. It does not look good for a free MEM promotion, but I will check one more time before installing the option keys.Congratulations
I would not expect Keysight to haggle on eBay Store prices, but maybe they do?
Hello,
this is my first post here, till now i was silent reader only :-)
I just wanted to let you know that Keysight has a new promotion from the beginning of september 2018 - anyone who get one of said DMMs (34465A or 34470A) will get memory option for free. So, it's back again.
Promotion code: 6.028
https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=DE&lc=ger&ckey=2990857&nid=-32051.1242959&id=2990857 (https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=DE&lc=ger&ckey=2990857&nid=-32051.1242959&id=2990857)
Regards,
Dim
New firmware release v3.0 for 3446xA/34470A
Release notes: https://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-11143.0.00 (https://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?ckey=2367633&lc=eng&cc=US&nid=-11143.0.00)
Of interest to me is: "Adds 2-wire and 4-wire support for 2.25 kΩ and 10 kΩ thermistors in addition to 5 kΩ thermistors." :-+
... and probably of more interest to 34465A/70A owners: "Beginning with Firmware revision 3.0, the digitizing and advanced triggering option (34465A-DIG/34470A-DIG/3446DIGU), is now standard" - time to upgrade? ;D
I posted about the new firmware release for the 3446xA/70A series in the "34461A" thread because that is what I have, however this may well be the defacto thread for the whole series?
In any case, the 34465A/70A models now get the previous "DIG" option as standard.
Have you got a Keysight?? We can do that. :)
Yay for the HTML5 interface. That's really good news. It's a bit laggy, but usable.
Now, can we get an HTML5 interface on the 33522B :D
Yay for the HTML5 interface. That's really good news. It's a bit laggy, but usable.
To get best accuracy you should use meter with same ambient temperature as what used during calibration (typically +23 °C).
I think your meter is fine, but to know for sure you need much more than just a short.
My 34470A shows almost 0 for this quick test
Here is a picture of a comparison on my instrument.
You should test again at about the same temperature as per calibration certificate
I would expect it to be just constant value stored in meter (typed in by calibration procedure step?) during the calibration, for user's convenience.
Sure manual should cover this detail with correct explanation. I don't have / never played with 34461A/65A/70A to know shenanigans related to these meters, sorry.
Hello...
Received my 34470A one month plus ago but only started to use it 1~2 week ago.
I have just done a test. A Fluke 884X Short was installed on the front panel terminals. The meter has been powered up nearly 90 mins before the statistical data recording (image below) was initiated.
The calibration menu shows that the meter was calibrated in July 2018.
Is the reading is OK? Since "Auto Zero" is ON, I thought the reading should be (very close) to 000.00000.
Note: When the test was carried out, the (4m x 4m) room's aircond temperature setting was set to 18 degC, while the temperature shown on the calibration menu (besides Uptime) is around 24.1 degC.
I had my 34465A running over night with a short block on the input.Hi HighVoltage,
Here is the histogram for comparison.
Hello dmm2018
This 34465A was turned ON for about 24h, before I started the data collection for the histogram
| 34470A | dmm2018 | 136nV |
| 34465A | HKJ | 180nV |
| 34470A | HKJ | 200nV |
| 34465A | HighVoltage | 80nV |
| 34470A | HighVoltage | 190nV |
How come the 34470A is only showing 6 1/2 Digits?On the 100 mV range, 34470A defaults to 6 1/2 digits. You can manually change this to 7 1/2 digits with "Digit Mask" button in DCV mode, which also results in an additional digit of resolution in the statistics window (Avg, Stddev et al).
The calibration process is done at about 23°C, even @ Keysight in Malaysia, where your instrument might have been calibrated (see your cal certificate).
Highest uncertainty is achieved only at this calibration temperature. Otherwise, correction calculations using T.C.s apply.
Frank
25.41°C would be the internal temperature and not the lab temperature
Is it a old firmware version, my meter looks different and I can select a HTML5 control that works. It do also have a Java applet, but it states that Java applets are not supported in Chrome.
It maybe interesting to repeat this test on 100 NPLC setting. There are some data from OldNeurons on TiN's website that suggest that 34461A is better than 34465A/34470A on 100 mV scale and 100 NPLC.OK, I will make another run at 100 NPLC of all 4 instruments
Some info on Java applets in Chrome:
https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/chrome.xml (https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/chrome.xml)
25.41°C would be the internal temperature and not the lab temperature
Thank you e61_phil.
If 25.41°C is the internal temperature, I guess the lab temperature (ambient temperature) should be lower than 25.41°C.
I note that the temperature readings shown on the Cal menu of the meter keep changing (see below). If I adjust my room aircond temperature setting until the "Temperature change from last calibration" = 0°C, is it ok to guess/tell that the ambient temperature of my room is now equal (or very close to) to the ambient temperature of the Keysight Cal lab when the meter was calibrated at the Keysight Cal lab?
I am not sure what happened to the 34465A this time.
Thought I'd give this a try on my 34461A. It ran overnight and through the day. The twin peaks are the cooler temp of night and the warmer temp of day in the house. It would be nice to see no change with temperature but overall it seems the two temps are maintained quite well. There is a 3 degree C temp shift.
Had luck found an affordable 34465A last week, couldn't resist.
Installed the new firmware 3.0 and now have the DIG option enabled.
I an now thinking of the MEM option but can only find that it extends the internal storage to 2M events instead of 50k.
So what is the usecase for this extra storage if I insert a USB stick and log to external storage then this is not needed or what am I missing ?
Second where can you buy this, I saw it on Farnell for $250 but is that the normal way of purchase, not directly at Keysight, any special discounts going on presently that anyone know of ?
Thanks. Great meter, enjoyed playing with it this weekend.
I've read some references in this thread about keysight moving away from WinCE for these units. Is there any concrete info about this? What would the replacement be?The four channel 1000X oscilloscope uses Linux where it's two channel brother uses CE. I've heard Linux mentioned in interviews too so that seems to be the most logical candidate.
3. Removed Option AVG from the list of available options (Help – About window) as it is not available to all customers.
The 34465AVG AC average function is a special option that was done for the Navy that you shouldn't want. The Navy wanted to get matching results that are given by some very old analog voltmeters before good RMS converters were available. The 34465A true RMS AC voltage function gives a much more accurate RMS voltage. In any case, the AVG option is only available to the Navy. It was a mistake to have this show up in the Help > About window.
Running FW v3.01 on my 34465A, just fired mine up and found no issues with odd tone or tone latch behavior.
..But all is politically correct now.. :D
2. Changed the “Slave” terminology to “Secondary” on the error message.
Too bad, the ACAL problem with the 34470A was not addressed.
I did not want to say it, but so true !..But all is politically correct now.. :D
2. Changed the “Slave” terminology to “Secondary” on the error message.
Too bad, the ACAL problem with the 34470A was not addressed.
Now that ADR1399 is available, someone already replaced the LM399 inside their 34465A?I got very lucky with my 34465A, it is in such good condition and spot on in the DC calibration that I am not planning to play with the ADR1399. Hmm, but maybe getting a second 34465A for upgrading and comparison would not be a bad idea.
-branadic-
Is there a SCPI command for the total number
of operating hours for my 34465A? Or any
other way of determining this?
*LRN? showed a lot of SCPI commands.
But not the one I need. No hints in the manual
and the SCPI programming manual.
By the way: *LRN? is not implemented on all the other
SCPI equipment I have.
INSTRUCTIONS:
HOW TO REDEEM YOUR LICENSE
Log into Keysight’s licensing website at
www.keysight.com/find/softwaremanager (http://www.keysight.com/find/softwaremanager) to redeem your license.
You will need the following information:
• Keysight Order Number and Keysight Certificate Number from the top of this certificate
• Host ID (Instructions will be provided during the redemption process in the licensing website).
• The model and serial numbers for the unit(s) that will use the license(s)
When you are asked to select the host to assign licenses to, select "Add a new Model Number host..." and enter the model number
and serial number of your instrument.