Author Topic: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters  (Read 169748 times)

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Online maxwell3e10

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #675 on: January 17, 2019, 02:06:34 pm »
It maybe interesting to repeat this test on 100 NPLC setting. There are some data from OldNeurons on TiN's website that suggest that 34461A is better than 34465A/34470A on 100 mV scale and 100 NPLC.
 

Offline dmm2018

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #676 on: January 17, 2019, 02:16:01 pm »
25.41°C would be the internal temperature and not the lab temperature

Thank you e61_phil.

If 25.41°C is the internal temperature, I guess the lab temperature (ambient temperature) should be lower than 25.41°C.

I note that the temperature readings shown on the Cal menu of the meter keep changing (see below). If I adjust my room aircond temperature setting until the "Temperature change from last calibration" = 0°C, is it ok to guess/tell that the ambient temperature of my room is now equal (or very close to) to the ambient temperature of the Keysight Cal lab when the meter was calibrated at the Keysight Cal lab?

« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 02:19:37 pm by dmm2018 »
 

Offline dmm2018

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #677 on: January 17, 2019, 02:35:38 pm »
Wished to access the built-in Web Interface of my 34470A via a Web browser. My Web browser (Google Chrome, Version 71) has no problem to access the page shown below. However, when I clicked the "Instrument Monitor and Control" tab (the 2nd tab, see below), an error message popped up: "Java not detected".

I followed the troubleshooting steps described at the following Keysight site: https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=MY&lc=eng&ckey=2573860&nid=-11143.0.00&id=2573860 but still cannot solve the problem.

My OS is Windows 7 (32-bit).
Java version 8 is installed.

Kindly advise.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 02:39:45 pm by dmm2018 »
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #678 on: January 17, 2019, 02:52:35 pm »
Is it a old firmware version, my meter looks different and I can select a HTML5 control that works. It do also have a Java applet, but it states that Java applets are not supported in Chrome.
 
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Offline JDubU

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #679 on: January 17, 2019, 02:54:52 pm »
Some info on Java applets in Chrome:

https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/chrome.xml
 
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Offline dmm2018

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #680 on: January 17, 2019, 03:07:00 pm »
Is it a old firmware version, my meter looks different and I can select a HTML5 control that works. It do also have a Java applet, but it states that Java applets are not supported in Chrome.

Thank you HKJ.

Later when I tested with IE-11, it works !!!

Then checked the firmware version. Yes, it's an old firmware: A.02.06. I borrowed this unit from a friend.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 03:09:13 pm by dmm2018 »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #681 on: January 17, 2019, 03:11:34 pm »
It maybe interesting to repeat this test on 100 NPLC setting. There are some data from OldNeurons on TiN's website that suggest that 34461A is better than 34465A/34470A on 100 mV scale and 100 NPLC.
OK, I will make another run at 100 NPLC of all 4 instruments
May be I will add a second 34461A

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline dmm2018

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #682 on: January 17, 2019, 03:15:27 pm »
Some info on Java applets in Chrome:

https://www.java.com/en/download/faq/chrome.xml

Thank you JDubU.

Tried using Firefox version 64 >> Not Successful

Tried using IE version 11 >> Working
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #683 on: January 17, 2019, 03:36:36 pm »
25.41°C would be the internal temperature and not the lab temperature

Thank you e61_phil.

If 25.41°C is the internal temperature, I guess the lab temperature (ambient temperature) should be lower than 25.41°C.

I note that the temperature readings shown on the Cal menu of the meter keep changing (see below). If I adjust my room aircond temperature setting until the "Temperature change from last calibration" = 0°C, is it ok to guess/tell that the ambient temperature of my room is now equal (or very close to) to the ambient temperature of the Keysight Cal lab when the meter was calibrated at the Keysight Cal lab?


The 34465/470s internal temperature usually rises about 3°C above room temperature, therefore this instrument had been calibrated at about 22.5 °C.
In the cal certificate, they do not give the actual cal temperature, only a range around 23°C.

My instrument has 'date 23C' as a cal string, so I assume this to be the original room temperature (as the internal temperature is displayed on that specific screen in a different manner).

So you should set your R.T. accordingly but also use ACAL, to get best accuracy.

And your friend should update the firmware to the recent 3.0, as this old one still contains a lot of errors, and 3.0 adds the DIG option, and HTML5 operation of the browser.

Frank 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 04:43:58 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #684 on: January 18, 2019, 09:59:58 am »
OK, repeated the histogram noise test again, this time on 5 instruments at the same time over night.
The temperature span was about 1.5 degrees.

I am not sure what happened to the 34465A this time.

All standard settings, 100 NPLC

1. Room temperature measurement with 5k thermistor on a 34461A
2. Noise 34461A #1    = 70 nV StdDev
3. Noise 34461A #2    = 90 nV StdDev
4. Noise 34470A #1    = 90 nV StdDev
5. Noise 34470A #2    = 150 nV StdDev
6. Noise 34465A #1    = 120 nV StdDev
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Online maxwell3e10

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #685 on: January 18, 2019, 10:43:01 pm »
I wonder if some of the standard deviation is due to long term drift. One can clearly see a double-peaked distribution on the 34465A.
One would have to save the raw data and calculate the Allan variance to separate short term noise from long term drift. 
 

Offline Andreas

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #686 on: January 19, 2019, 05:20:29 pm »
I am not sure what happened to the 34465A this time.

Temperature drift or even worse: popcorn noise?
Do you have the data over time?

with best regards

Andreas
 

Offline TheSteve

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #687 on: January 21, 2019, 02:42:16 am »
Thought I'd give this a try on my 34461A. It ran overnight and through the day. The twin peaks are the cooler temp of night and the warmer temp of day in the house. It would be nice to see no change with temperature but overall it seems the two temps are maintained quite well. There is a 3 degree C temp shift.
VE7FM
 

Offline dmm2018

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #688 on: January 21, 2019, 05:44:41 am »
Thought I'd give this a try on my 34461A. It ran overnight and through the day. The twin peaks are the cooler temp of night and the warmer temp of day in the house. It would be nice to see no change with temperature but overall it seems the two temps are maintained quite well. There is a 3 degree C temp shift.

I also got similar plot (2 peaks) sometimes... I believe it's due to temperature drift... in my case, when I placed the meter is a slightly different orientation, I could see it started to drift then settled at a new peak...
 

Offline Messtechniker

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #689 on: January 22, 2019, 10:03:43 am »
And another one. :P
Ambient temp. was 20.5 +- 0.5 during measurement :palm:
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 10:06:37 am by Messtechniker »
Agilent 34465A, Hameg HMO1022, R&S HMC 8043, Voltcraft VC 940 and M-Audio Audiophile 192
 
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Offline zzattack

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I've read some references in this thread about keysight moving away from WinCE for these units. Is there any concrete info about this? What would the replacement be?
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #691 on: September 09, 2019, 11:29:06 am »
Had luck found an affordable 34465A last week, couldn't resist.
Installed the new firmware 3.0 and now have the DIG option enabled.

I an now thinking of the MEM option but can only find that it extends the internal storage to 2M events instead of 50k.
So what is the usecase for this extra storage if I insert a USB stick and log to external storage then this is not needed or what am I missing ?
Second where can you buy this, I saw it on Farnell for $250 but is that the normal way of purchase, not directly at Keysight, any special discounts going on presently that anyone know of ?

Thanks. Great meter, enjoyed playing with it this weekend.
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #692 on: September 09, 2019, 12:39:08 pm »
Had luck found an affordable 34465A last week, couldn't resist.
Installed the new firmware 3.0 and now have the DIG option enabled.

I an now thinking of the MEM option but can only find that it extends the internal storage to 2M events instead of 50k.
So what is the usecase for this extra storage if I insert a USB stick and log to external storage then this is not needed or what am I missing ?
Second where can you buy this, I saw it on Farnell for $250 but is that the normal way of purchase, not directly at Keysight, any special discounts going on presently that anyone know of ?

Thanks. Great meter, enjoyed playing with it this weekend.

As soon as you really use (need) digitizing @50kHz, for longer intervals than 1sec, you'll also need the MEM option.

The instrument does not support fast data transfer to USB, or USB memory.. I didn't find the exact numbers of these speed limitations, right now.
This is mainly caused by the firmware, or the data crunching / transfer, possibly limited by the operating system WIN CE, because, in a similar manner, there's a limit of direct data transfer over the LAN and GPIB, to about 25 kSa/s.

You can observe that, if you are using BenchView trying to digitize at maximum rate and for longer period of time.

The internal buffer of the 34465A is used for that. As soon as the 50kSa, or 2MSa are exceeded, the whole system slows down.

They still have two bugs for digitizing, inside the command set, which prevent that the 344465A / 470A are really compatible with the 34411A (which probably was able to do direct high speed digitizing over its buses), and this also prevented my attempts to program digitizing at full speed.

1) There is no dedicated command to configure for 20µs or 50kHz w/o delay.
2) The smallest data format (50kHz delivers 16Bit only) for fast transfers is 8 Byte, that means bus data transfer rates of at least 400kB/sec, instead of 4 Byte / 200kB/sec, like in the 34411A. (*)

If you search the 344465A/470A for substantial data transfer rates over USB/LAN/GPIB, you'll only find incomplete information.

Anyhow, I have used this digitizing feature quite often in DCI digitizing mode, and was really happy about the 2MSa depth... got it for free, at that time.

Frank

(*) There's a detailed AN for the 410A/411A, "Agilent 34410A/34411A 6 1/2 Digit High-Performance Multimeters", which describes the digitizing state machine, and capabilities.
I'M missing that for the "successor instrument", maybe they simply replaced this state machine by SW, which is too slow.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 01:12:21 pm by Dr. Frank »
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #693 on: September 09, 2019, 12:53:56 pm »
I've read some references in this thread about keysight moving away from WinCE for these units. Is there any concrete info about this? What would the replacement be?
The four channel 1000X oscilloscope uses Linux where it's two channel brother uses CE. I've heard Linux mentioned in interviews too so that seems to be the most logical candidate.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Keysight's new 34465A (6.5 digit) and 34470A (7.5 digit) bench multimeters
« Reply #694 on: September 09, 2019, 12:58:08 pm »
@ Dr. Frank, thanks for the explanation.  :-+
 


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