Author Topic: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps  (Read 6364 times)

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Offline RiRaRiTopic starter

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2023, 12:25:24 am »
Okay. Thanks. Which one would you reccomend that is little bit more expensive and maybe higher quality then DER since i plan to use it a lot. Not exactly for hobbyst use
 

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2023, 12:48:28 am »
I understand. But in my opinion der de 5000 is more convenient since you can use it with multiple probes also tweezers. Also it has 100 khz option which is the best for testing the majority of electrolytic caps. Would you agree and does this tweezers has something that i am not aware of?
Only with modern designs do you need test that high.

I got tweezers 15+ years back after borrowing a old LCR bridge when at that time I was winding inductors, doing repairs and getting into SMD and they seemed the best fit for my needs and they still are.
I've found many a crook cap with them with their dual display of C and ESR and TBH I'd replace them in a flash with similar.
Now I have ST42 I am even more pleased with the improved accuracy and resolution tweezers can offer.
YMMV
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2023, 10:18:30 am »
Okay. Thanks. Which one would you reccomend that is little bit more expensive and maybe higher quality then DER since i plan to use it a lot. Not exactly for hobbyst use

I don't have a complete list of LCR meters on the market today, but in my experience there isn't much available between the ~150 USD handheld meters and the > 1000 USD benchtop meters (like our LCX100). 

My preference for the DE-5000 over the Tenma is mostly subjective: you don't really get a huge difference in quality / features unless you move up to the higher category.
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Offline kripton2035

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2023, 10:36:01 am »
same here you need to spend >$1k if you want something really better than the $150 de5000
 
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Offline Veteran68

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2023, 01:07:50 pm »
Without going back and reading every post, I think the UNI-T 622 series was mentioned but I didn't see a mention of the Hantek 1830 series. The 1833C in particular has some feature advantages over the DE-5000, such as selectable test voltage (0.3V and 0.6V) and some additional frequency bands (like 400Hz) that may or may not be useful to the OP. I did my research and watched several reviews before deciding on the 1833C over the DE-5000. I also purchased a set of Kelvin clips to go with, and have a few sets of cheap DMM tweezers on hand as well.

There was a bit of a stir created recently after Kerry Wong -- who had reviewed and recommended the Hantek meters in an earlier video -- put out a follow-up video suggesting that the guard terminal might be a dud (disconnected and not active). However a teardown showed the guard terminal was connected on the ground side and his recent update on his video suggests that this is actually a non-issue, just not the common convention.

I don't know that I'd pick the lower model 1832C over the DE-5000, but can recommend the 1833C as it's only about $20 USD more for the extra features. The Kelvin clips ran another ~$30, but I'll point out that in Tony Albus' comparison with a bench LCR meter, there was no significant increase in accuracy between the 4-wire Kelvin clips and the supplied short leads on these Hantek models, even with very small resistances. The Hantek actually held its own and edged out the bench meter in some tests.

I would also point out that I seldom recommend Hantek products. I believe Owon and others in this range are typically better, however in this case I think it's hard to beat their LCR meters in this price range (particularly the 1833C).
« Last Edit: August 09, 2023, 01:09:43 pm by Veteran68 »
 
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2023, 02:01:58 pm »
Agree not much between the DE-5000 and over $1K, except the Tonghui TH2830 which may be found for ~$900, we got ours for $850 a few years ago.

One must remember that the above $1K is bench LCR meter territory and these bench meters have many features lacking in the handhelds. Things like very high current levels up to 67ma for the TH2830 (100ma for the Hioki IM3536), selectable test Voltage and Current levels, selectable drive output impedances, DUT component binning, DC voltage and current DUT bias, frequency ranges below 50Hz (IM3534 IM3536 is 4Hz) usually with 1Hz resolution, higher frequency ranges (IM3536 is 8MHz) also with fine resolution, bigger displays with more information, external interfaces, DUT graphing capability and so on. Also the available precision DUT fixtures available, some of which have been cloned and not expensive, the SMD fixtures are an example.

The design of the quality bench type LCR meters is different as well, they utilize DDS created DUT waveforms and utilize high resolution ADCs (some have 24 bit SD ADCs that are common to lower end 5.5 and 6.5 DMMs) and have 5~6 digit resolution, and high BW and power level drive channels capable of driving 50~100ma DUT currents.

The handheld and bench LCR meters are like comparing a handheld and bench DMM, not exactly the same same features, resolution, accuracy and so on. One wouldn't use a handheld DMM to measure/characterize a Vishay precision resistor, nor a LM399 or LTZ1000, but would use such for troubleshooting in circuit, measuring the Mains lines and "seeing" if a 1K resistor is 1K or 10K (still can't read the color codes!!).

Also, should mention the quality bench LCR meters higher DUT excitation currents allow Resistance measurement ranges below the ranges on popular high resolution DMMs like the KS34465A, where the lowest range is 100 ohms.

Anyway, each type LCR meter has their place like the mentioned DMMs, and why we have and use both types.

Best,
« Last Edit: August 09, 2023, 07:40:39 pm by mawyatt »
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2023, 02:54:40 pm »
One must remember that the above $1K is bench LCR meter territory and these bench meters have many features lacking in the handhelds.

I did a video explaining "benchtop" LCR meters and their features:



and I also did one that shows how these kinds of features are implemented on our LCX series LCR meters

Test and Measurement Fundamentals video series on the Rohde & Schwarz YouTube channel:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8
 
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2023, 08:14:14 pm »
One must remember that the above $1K is bench LCR meter territory and these bench meters have many features lacking in the handhelds.

I did a video explaining "benchtop" LCR meters and their features:



and I also did one that shows how these kinds of features are implemented on our LCX series LCR meters



Another nice pair of videos, well done and highly informative  :clap:

You certainly have a skill for producing informative and easy to follow videos on R&S instrumentation, that should be viewed by all folks, junior or senior, interested in specific instruments and measurements :-+

Best,
« Last Edit: August 10, 2023, 01:03:05 am by mawyatt »
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Offline Electro Fan

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2023, 08:32:18 pm »
Also, should mention the quality bench LCR meters higher DUT excitation currents allow Resistance measurement ranges below the ranges on popular high resolution DMMs like the KS34465A, where the lowest range is 100 ohms.

A little bit off the original topic but the KS34465A with 4 wire can measure with some reasonable accuracy down to around .01 ohm to .001 ohm or maybe even a tad better?
 

Online Martin72

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2023, 09:17:28 pm »
I don't have a complete list of LCR meters on the market today, but in my experience there isn't much available between the ~150 USD handheld meters and the > 1000 USD benchtop meters (like our LCX100). 

My personal "ranking" based on own experiences, from cheap to "not so cheap anymore":

Vici LCR ????? (forget the model number)
Mastech MS8911
DE5000
ET4410
Keysight U1733C
ST2830/TH2830

And now the ranking regardless of the price...

1.) ST2830/TH2830
2.) ET4410
3.) DE 5000
4.) U1733 C
5.) MS8911
6.) Vici ????

The vici is a cheap (appx 40€) meter without selectable frequency, the mastech is good but mechanical limited ( SMD-Tweezer), the keysight is disappointing for its price (appx 700€), the DE5000 is the best handheld LCR I know for it´s price, the ET4410 is a surprisingly good meter although you must take care when doing measurings at the highest frequency.
And the Sourcetronic/Tonghui is a meter you could be happy with it - to "beat" this, you must pay much, much more...
ET4410 again:
Pros vs DE5000:

- Testfrequencies in 16 steps selectable
- Testvoltage up to 2Vrms
- Inbuilt DC-Bias up to 2V
- Selectable output resistance 30/100 Ohm.
- List (a kind of sweep) function
- Best accuracy 0.1%

If you want to spend max 150...170€, take the DE5000.
If you want/could spend more, take the ET4410 (250..270€)
Otherwise go for a ST2830/TH2830.
Superb building quality high accuracy, lots of features....




 
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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2023, 10:55:02 pm »
Another nice pair of videos, well done and highly informative  :clap:

You certainly have a skill for producing informative and easy to follow videos on R&S instrumentation, that should be viewed by all folks, junior or senior, interested in specific instruments and measurements :-+

Thanks! 
Test and Measurement Fundamentals video series on the Rohde & Schwarz YouTube channel:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8
 

Offline RiRaRiTopic starter

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2023, 01:32:03 am »
Thanks for this in-depth answer. This ET44 seems as a good budget options but it seems to me that is very low quality built. Were you saying about this one that it has sweep option? Thing is i mostly need it for testing caps only for servicing devices.
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2023, 02:00:04 am »
If you're making sure to discharge the caps, you should also consider the Shannon Tweezers ST42. It's a great little tweezer pair, and they hold their own within their specs compared to the TH2830.
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Re: LCR meter reccomendations, mostly for measuring ESR on e-caps
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2023, 02:04:00 am »
If you're making sure to discharge the caps, you should also consider the Shannon Tweezers ST42. It's a great little tweezer pair, and they hold their own within their specs compared to the TH2830.
Yep, ppl just overlook any such small device can be useful but they are and for the repair work the OP does they will better than meet his needs.

Glad there are other converts to these very good devices.  :-+
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