Author Topic: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1  (Read 8754 times)

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Offline Paul T

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2024, 09:16:09 am »
Hi Scott,  Did you try calibration?  I assume the FNIRSI has a similar menu item to the ZOYI where you can go in to zero out any offset by doing the 0 ohm cal.
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Offline Frex

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2024, 11:13:45 am »
I just recorded a review for the FNIRSI and found that I could not zero them, the manual states it can be done, but in my case is doesn't actually zero, but goes down to NEGATIVE mOhm's, from power up it does -38mOhm when shorted, if I put a 100mOhm resistor on it I get about 67mOhm... trying to zero gets WORSE, down to negative 66 or so, and then negative 102mOhm or so ! if I then put the 100mOhm on it, I get about 2mOhm !

Tried all different things, no good.

It's on V1.3, tried to install V1.5... firmware doesn't take, I get the disk on the computer, and have boot loader 0% on screen, but copying the firmware .bin over results in no change at all, nothing happens, again tried doing it different ways, no good, probably because I am on a Mac rather than a PC.

UPDATE tried on a PC and got firmware updated, didn't fix the zeroing issue though, that is no different.

Hello,

I have experienced same issue.
To solve this, I had need to calibrate it (I had seen the procedure on a linked video in another FNIRSI ST-1 thread)
When it is in off state, you need to push the toggle knob at left and push power button  at same time to go in such mode.
Then you see the calibrate screen and you can select calibrate value between short, 1, 10, 100, 1k, 10k, 100k, 1M,10M and open.
Of course you need precise resistor value of each.
I hope that help.
Regards.

Frex
 
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Offline Paul T

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2024, 11:17:19 am »
And if it’s out of cal because of experimenting with that part of the menu, you are supposed to be able to restore the factory setting using the reset feature in the menu.
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Online DaneLawTopic starter

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2024, 08:39:15 pm »
..
When it is in off state, you need to push the toggle knob at left and push power button  at same time to go in such mode.
Then you see the calibrate screen and you can select calibrate value between short, 1, 10, 100, 1k, 10k, 100k, 1M,10M and open.
..

Thx for the info, about the hidden cal-menu that pops out with toggle-to-left (while a push-in activates the bootloader)
Do you know if such a manual user-calibration takes precedence, or will its "menu/restore" flip ST1 back to scratch and remove a given user cal.?.

Over the top. packaging Fnirsi are using when shipping these ST1, if such packaging are the norm.
The product is already safely inside its own form-fitted hardcasing and with a promo-cardboard outside, - seems quite excessive to also put it inside a massive flamingo-temperature resistant box that elevates the footprint numerous times, but then again, better safe than sorry, as parcel across the globe can be harsh affaire..
Looks like the battery is quite a bit bigger on Zoyi MD1 (400mAh)  than ST1 (250mAh)

« Last Edit: September 27, 2024, 01:30:04 pm by DaneLaw »
 

Offline DCFluX

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2024, 10:35:59 pm »
I was looking to replace my original Smart Tweezers with something a bit newer so I figured I'd give the Fnirsi LCR-ST1 a try.

So far a big draw back that I just discovered is the inductance scale.  Lowest display reading is 0.0uH, and it does not have enough display resolution to be useful for parts in the nanohenry range which is really what I need it to do for RF work.

I am impressed with the full color display but my second gripe is there is no way to flip the display, which I also need because I am left handed.

I have to do some more testing but I just clipped on to two capacitors that were 39pF and one measured 51 and the other 59. 

I just tried some more capacitors and whoa, weird results for sure.  So on my bin of 1, 2.2 and 4.7uF the readings on the different caps all look about in spec for the tolerance but on the 10uF parts they are reading anywhere between 6.8 and 7.5uF and I can take those same parts to another component tester and have them read around 9.85 to 10.2uF
« Last Edit: September 28, 2024, 04:48:49 pm by DCFluX »
 


Offline elantric

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2024, 09:12:02 pm »
 
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Offline u37

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2024, 11:59:02 pm »
Feuerbard, What's interesting about it is not 100 kHz at all. Take a closer look at the picture. Very few LCRs can measure in the presence of external voltage, in subj it will not work. Unfortunately, this is off-topic.

 
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Online DaneLawTopic starter

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2024, 04:24:30 am »
  I just tried some more capacitors and whoa, weird results for sure.  So on my bin of 1, 2.2 and 4.7uF the readings on the different caps all look about in spec for the tolerance but on the 10uF parts they are reading anywhere between 6.8 and 7.5uF and I can take those same parts to another component tester and have them read around 9.85 to 10.2uF

What component tester are you referring your results to?  they can vary a lot in their approaches.. and "component-tester" is quite a loose term.. can vary from a 5-buck eBay tester to lab-rated ref-gear..

What values are you testing 10uF with?
Tested these two units MD1 & ST1 with 10uF on a cheap res/cap ref-board..Seems okay..



and with 10uF and 1uf electrolytic caps-
« Last Edit: September 29, 2024, 04:30:55 am by DaneLaw »
 
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Offline elantric

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2024, 04:44:37 am »
https://youtu.be/Lt-Pi3PwyZs


[youtube]Lt-Pi3PwyZs[/youtube]
« Last Edit: September 29, 2024, 04:46:24 am by elantric »
 

Online DaneLawTopic starter

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2024, 04:48:03 am »
Feuerbard, What's interesting about it is not 100 kHz at all. Take a closer look at the picture. Very few LCRs can measure in the presence of external voltage, in subj it will not work. Unfortunately, this is off-topic.

No, pls share. 
It can be helpful to possible buyers to sort through some of the marketing 3D-rendered-imaging' if their specs can't hold water in practice.

Looked online for QPLINK, and nothing stands out, I can't even find this S1-model on Aliexpress, by name-label or reversed image search..
Could be its region-restricted or the fact that it is simply very early days, hopefully' the latter.
 

Online indman

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2024, 07:48:31 am »
Feuerbard, What's interesting about it is not 100 kHz at all. Take a closer look at the picture. Very few LCRs can measure in the presence of external voltage, in subj it will not work. Unfortunately, this is off-topic.
I didn't quite understand what you wrote? How is the 100kHz measurement frequency related to the ability of the device to measure external voltage?
The description of this tweezers claims to be able to measure external voltage from 0.1 to 16V :
Voltage Range: ±0.1V to ±16V
The photo shows a LIPO 11.1V measurement in voltmeter mode. What's wrong with this regime according to you?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2024, 07:51:52 am by indman »
 

Offline u37

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2024, 08:31:05 am »
Declaration.
Discussion of another LCR is off-topic and please do not develop it, but the question is really useful for subj.
Let's take both LCRs, they are built on a similar scheme (there are some differences, but it is not important for now). These schemes are very similar to the previously existing QPLCR. For example, let's take the scheme on 3s (pdf).
I don't know what your level of training is, but I, for example, do not see any attempts to protect the device from external voltage (or a charged capacitor).
If you apply voltage (on the same charged capacitor, or a DC source), it will connect between J1/2 and J3/4. Contacts J1-2 are shorted to each other, as are J3-4, these are Kelvin probes. So, external voltage is applied to two nodes in the LCR - to the output of the sine wave generator and to the voltage measurement input. The signal output is made on U1A and R9 with a virtual "0" on the "IV" of U5. If you apply an increased voltage, say 15 volts, then these 15 volts will go to R9 and then to the output of U1A. At the output of the microcircuit, the voltage cannot be greater than the V supply of the microcircuit +0.7 V due to the mandatory diode inside the microcircuit from the output to gnd and to Vdd. Due to the nominal value of R9, the current will be about 15/150 = 100 mA. This current will go through pin 8 to VddA of the processor. The processor will not be able to utilize 100 mA in its power supply and its voltage will begin to increase instantly. At 4 V, the microcircuit irreversibly burns out. If the polarity of the 15V application is different, then "-" voltage will go to R9 and negative current will go to the output of U1A. The built-in diode will send this current to gnd and if the diode withstands, then nothing will happen, but ... But, on the other hand, there will be "+" and it will go to the input-output of U5, resistors R1,2, microcircuits U3,4 and according to the same scenario, a current of 100 mA will cause this current to pass through the built-in diodes into the power supply of the microcircuits and, ultimately, into VddA. The processor will also burn out. This was about the "output", but there is also an "input" - this is U6 and its resistors R4,5. Inside the amplifier microcircuit there are also protective diodes and excess voltage will also be sent to the gnd and V power supply terminals of the microcircuit. R4,5 ratings = 100 Ohm (tears), the power supply of U6 is connected to VddA. The processor is finished again. In order to eliminate this obvious drawback, it is necessary not to (!) let the increased voltage to the input of the microcircuits. Moreover, the main problem is not with the ground, but with the "power supply" - draining excess power into the "power supply" is IMPOSSIBLE, in principle, impossible! And this is a big problem. If you just install a "USB interference suppressor", your processor will burn out even faster. The solution is not so simple, but you have to think a lot, because a simple zener diode has a very large capacity (didn't know? look at the documentation) and extremely disgusting voltage stabilization for 3-4 volts. At the same time, it is necessary to utilize currents of the order of 100 mA. In addition to general protection, it is also necessary to take into account the thermal power - supplying high voltage will cause a large current, as a result, a huge power will be released in a small box and it will burn out, literally burn out. To suppress the long-term passage of current, it is necessary to install "capacitors" in the measuring circuits of sufficient size and good quality. Ceramic capacitors change their value when the voltage changes (except for NPO), so you need film and/or electrolytic ones. This will not fit into the subj case.
Apparently, QPLINK has these problems solved from the start. This means that it is guaranteed to be protected from charged capacitors up to the permissible operating voltage of the device (I don’t know, but 20 volts for sure). What does such a device give? Firstly, a more reliable and stable input. It is unlikely that anyone in their right mind will shove capacitors charged from a 230 V network, they are not even worth touching, and the device is immune to low-voltage charging. The second is measuring the ESR of rechargeable batteries and disposable batteries. It is needed to reject old/dead cans and in general, to understand what you bought - a battery or a bucket of sand. At one time, I made an RLC with exactly this function, measuring under voltage. And you know, it came in handy many times. And check the acid batteries (not to mention lithium cans) and look at the banal batteries - their ESR increases linearly as they discharge. The function is really useful.
Of course, all that has been said applies to QPLINK only under the heading "if" - I have not seen this device and judge only by those products that I developed myself. ))
 
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Online indman

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2024, 09:25:08 am »
Discussion of another LCR is off-topic and please do not develop it, but the question is really useful for subj.
Thank you for your very detailed reply, everything is clear to me from your explanation. Discussing the capabilities of tweezers is not beyond the scope of this thread, don't worry.  :)

Apparently, QPLINK has these problems solved from the start. This means that it is guaranteed to be protected from charged capacitors up to the permissible operating voltage of the device (I don’t know, but 20 volts for sure).
Apparently this problem has been solved by the developer of the tweezers. One thing that is not very clear to me is that the tweezers show another voltage V at the same time as the LIPO - V: 3.332V?  The Z:50.9mОhm reading on the right side of the display is probably the impedance of this battery at 1kHz?  :)
 

Offline u37

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2024, 09:40:31 am »
One thing that is not very clear to me is that the tweezers show another voltage V at the same time as the LIPO - V: 3.332V?
I don't know what it is. In fact, it should work as a classic impedance meter, but it doesn't have such a parameter. It doesn't look like the voltage of its own battery.
Quote
  The Z:50.9mОhm reading on the right side of the display is probably the impedance of this battery at 1kHz?  :)
Note that the value is approximately correct. ))
 

Online indman

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2024, 11:05:20 am »
The Z:50.9mОhm reading on the right side of the display is probably the impedance of this battery at 1kHz?  :)
Note that the value is approximately correct. ))
Yes, that value does look real.

Here is another interesting novelty from Chinese friends, which can operate at a frequency of 100kHz, and which can be used as a smart tweezers.
https://www.banggood.com/LCR-P1-Pro-Smart-LCR-SMD-ESR-Tester-Precise-Measurements-Capacitance-Inductance-Resistance-1200mAh-Battery-1_54-inch-Color-Screen-Portable-Testing-Tool-for-Continuity-p-2021059.html?rmmds=detail-left-hotproducts&cur_warehouse=CN&ID=49510&trace_id=845b1727546126217
But I don't think such a shaped instrument would be as convenient to work with as tweezers. :)
 

Offline DCFluX

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2024, 06:51:07 pm »
These are 10uF ceramic capacitors that I sourced from Mouser.
 

Offline Paul T

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2024, 06:55:07 pm »
@DCFluX 100 Hz would be best when above 1uF, looks like yours is set to 1kHz.  Please recheck at 100 and see if you get the same improvement.  :popcorn:

Here's some easy-to-remember rules of thumb.  Once you get the general measurement at 1kHz, switch to the best frequency for better accuracy if needed.

For capacitors
10kHz for pF
1kHz for nF
100Hz for μF

For inductors
10kHz for μH
1kHz for mH
100 Hz for H

I don't know of any meters that adjust the frequency for you automatically.  Most good meters work the same as these tweezers.  If you get a full-sized LCR bridge, you'll also need to learn whether series or parallel method should be used for your device or circuit.

Meters with 100kHz can be more accurate at low pF or nH measurements.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2024, 08:00:04 pm by Paul T »
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Offline Paul T

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2024, 07:21:44 pm »
In my experience, high-value dipped MLCC tend to produce the greatest capacitance value variation from device to device.  Not sure why.  Unless I need low leakage around 10uF, I usually choose a polarized cap.   Ceramic caps tend to be negatively impacted by DC bias, polarized caps require DC bias.

Here's my comparative measurements with a LCR meter, changing only frequency.  Transistor testers tend to be off by about 20% in my experience.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2024, 08:07:19 pm by Paul T »
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2024, 12:03:53 am »
The basic issue with Tweezers, Handhelds and Component Testers is the limited amount of DUT test voltage and current available. This is where the more expensive Bench Lab Grade LCR Meters come in, they have the ability to support higher DUT test voltage and currents, as well as higher frequencies to evaluate the DUT.

If one considers a low Z component with 10 milli-Ω impedance @ frequency, a handheld or tweezer that can deliver say 10mA RMS (14mA peak) produces only 100uV RMS across the DUT. This is a small and difficult voltage level to measure accurately. Whereas a bench LCR Meter can deliver over 100mA RMS to the DUT and thus produce a higher measurement voltage which yields a better result, and can do so at higher frequencies well beyond what handhelds and tweezers can support.

Similar situation for high Z components, a handheld or tweezer can only deliver a small DUT excitation voltage and thus the measured DUT current is very low and difficult to measure accurately. If DUT is a small capacitance (high Z) then increasing the frequency can help however most handhelds and tweezers have a limited frequency range. Again a Lab Grade Bench LCR Meter can supply a higher DUT excitation voltage at a higher frequency for better characterization of high Z components.

If one wishes to study the effects of various signal levels and/or bias levels on the DUT, then Bench LCR meters are the likely choice as handheld and tweezers have limited, or no abilities within these areas.

These are a few reasons the Lab Grade Bench LCR Meters cost more :-+

If one is considering acquiring high fidelity DUT component measurements, it's a good idea to understand the limitations of various potential use instruments, which is a valid concept for any measurements in general :-+

Best   
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Offline awakephd

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2024, 12:45:38 pm »
@DCFluX 100 Hz would be best when above 1uF, looks like yours is set to 1kHz.  Please recheck at 100 and see if you get the same improvement.  :popcorn:

Here's some easy-to-remember rules of thumb.  Once you get the general measurement at 1kHz, switch to the best frequency for better accuracy if needed.

For capacitors
10kHz for pF
1kHz for nF
100Hz for μF

For inductors
10kHz for μH
1kHz for mH
100 Hz for H

I don't know of any meters that adjust the frequency for you automatically.  Most good meters work the same as these tweezers.  If you get a full-sized LCR bridge, you'll also need to learn whether series or parallel method should be used for your device or circuit.

Meters with 100kHz can be more accurate at low pF or nH measurements.

Paul, thank you for this. I had not really understood the significance of the 100 - 1K - 10K settings on my recently acquired Zoyi MD1 ... and meanwhile I was getting some readings on various 10μF capacitors that seemed way too low. Checked again with the frequency at 100, and now getting readings much closer to the Keysight in the university lab. It seems so obvious, now that you have pointed it out, that readings for inductors and capacitors are frequency-dependent, but I sure missed that at first.

Just to be sure I'm not missing something else ... I'm guessing that readings for a resistor should not care about the frequency. Right? Or have I missed something else ... ?
 

Offline Paul T

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2024, 01:02:51 pm »
It’s true, a pure resistor shouldn’t matter. However real resistors have inductance and capacitance. Especially wire wound.   I use 1k for all resistors because the owners manual for my ztmd1 recommends best accuracy overall.
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Offline mawyatt

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2024, 01:47:02 pm »
Yes resistors are also frequency dependent and measurements should take this into account. They are also test level dependent as self heating can cause measurement issues (think TC).

Vishay and Caddock Resistors are the usual types folks look too for precision and stability. For capacitors the C0G/NP0 ceramic types are good choices, also Polystyrene and Mica but these are more difficult to find.

Getting highly repeatable results is difficult as everything from the usual ambient temperature and RH needs to be considered, but also the test signal level and type, DC Bias, test fixture, instrument measurement method, electrical environment & proximity and so on, influences results.

One also needs a thorough understanding of how the measurement instrument operates and computes the displayed parameters if expecting highly repeatable and accurate results.

As an example, a recent brief discussion concerning very high "Q" components and why the effective series loss element (Rs) was inconsistent in measurements, even displaying negative values!! These measurements were conducted on Lab Grade Bench LCR Meters. An analysis of the measurement method and parameter computation reveals an impedance magnitude and phase result from which the loss element Rs is computed. A high "Q" component will have an impedance phase approaching +-90 degrees from which the computation of element loss Rs is extremely sensitive to small angle variations, and can even produce the wrong sign!!

BTW we just received the MD1 and quite impressed considered the cost :-+

Anyway, these type measurements are well beyond what tweezers are intended for, but good for a user to understand.

@ awakephd Note you are working on your PhD, congrats :clap: What's your research area and university?

Best
« Last Edit: October 09, 2024, 03:00:12 am by mawyatt »
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Online DaneLawTopic starter

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2024, 11:09:18 pm »
I just recorded a review for the FNIRSI and found that I could not zero them, the manual states it can be done, but in my case is doesn't actually zero, but goes down to NEGATIVE mOhm's, from power up it does -38mOhm when shorted, if I put a 100mOhm resistor on it I get about 67mOhm... trying to zero gets WORSE, down to negative 66 or so, and then negative 102mOhm or so ! if I then put the 100mOhm on it, I get about 2mOhm !

Tried all different things, no good.

It's on V1.3, tried to install V1.5... firmware doesn't take, I get the disk on the computer, and have boot loader 0% on screen, but copying the firmware .bin over results in no change at all, nothing happens, again tried doing it different ways, no good, probably because I am on a Mac rather than a PC.

UPDATE tried on a PC and got firmware updated, didn't fix the zeroing issue though, that is no different.

Im not sure about the purpose of the "zeroing" that the manual explains..
On my unit (FW1.5) it almost looked like its adding a +10mOhm offset everytime...
so from reading around 3mOhm. and hold it together and push 5 times, it went up in the +50mOhm.
though one thing Im not fund of on the ST1 is the 1x screw fitting.. you need to clean the contact-surfaces and then screw it down, with more torque than you usually would do with a fingerscrew to get consistent reading, but in general the MD1 seems to perform better with low mOhm readings-.
 

Offline awakephd

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Re: LCR Tweezer Fnirsi ST1 vs. Zoyi MD1
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2024, 01:09:33 pm »
@ awakephd Note you are working on your PhD, congrats :clap: What's your research area and university?

I apologize - I did not mean to be misleading! I actually earned my PhD 24 years ago, but in the humanities; I teach / serve as a Dean at Campbell University in central North Carolina. The university has a relatively new (~10 years old) School of Engineering, and I am finally getting a chance to fulfill a long-standing desire to sit in on a circuits class. Despite my professional focus on the humanities, I have been tinkering with designing / building circuits for 40+ years, and while I have generally succeeded in building something that works, I have always been painfully aware of how much I am "guessing" at design choices or at values to use (e.g., for a simple RC filter to quiet the bounce on a mechanical switch). Or as I often say, I have worked by trial and lots of error. :) Thus far, the class has been extremely enjoyable and has already filled in quite a few of the gaping holes in my knowledge. And this forum is adding to my knowledge as well!
 


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