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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Martin72 on July 06, 2019, 09:28:25 pm

Title: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on July 06, 2019, 09:28:25 pm
Hi Everyone,

At last, we want new scopes - And we want it from Lecroy for serveral reasons.
Me personally would prefer siglents new 5000 series, but our Departement Manager want Lecroy.
Nevertheless, after almost bad experiences with the lecroy WS 3024, we´re looking for the HDO 4000 series….
Any comments on this, is it good, is it fast, Pros and Cons about it...
As we used the Waverunner series for almost 20 yrs, the Waverunner 8000 series is a competion to the 12bit HDO 4000 ?

Martin
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: nctnico on July 07, 2019, 06:51:04 pm
I'd be looking to see if the oscilloscope has enough processing power under the hood to do something meaningfull with the acquired data. The Siglent 5000 series is probably a good choice in the lower cost segment but it needs many more refinements to increase the productivity level when using it. I'm also wary whether the Siglent 5000 series has enough power under the hood to process all the data it can acquire. For business use spending more on the equipment likely pays back by being able to make measurements quicker. The cheapest solution to buy may not be the cheapest solution to use. The old saying goes: penny wise, pound foolish. Being 'burned' by the slow and handicapped WS3000 series should be taken as a serious lesson.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on July 07, 2019, 07:08:54 pm
Quote
Being 'burned' by the slow and handicapped WS3000 series should be taken as a serious lesson.

Yes indeed.
Awful slow and still buggy so the actual WS3000Z series isn´t interesting for us, the next "level" would be the Wavesurfer 510, but we don´t need 1ghz bw.
So the HDO4000A series could be the next for us.
Siglent SDS 5000 series would also fulfill our needs, costs 3 times less than a HDO4024A, but isn´t wanted here for some reasons.

Quote
I hate to break it to you, but Siglent and LeCroy are partners

I know about it, but this wasn´t my question.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: mk_ on July 07, 2019, 09:00:11 pm
Any comments on this, is it good, is it fast, Pros and Cons about it...

the HDO6104 - don`t now if the 4000 too - has a really nasty bug: when the signal reach the "upper corner"  of the screen the signal disappears from the screen - even the parts below the upper corner are not visible.

LeCroy469 with the error for demostration,
LeCroy471 without this error

And they are not willing to fix this. (Cant be done and such blablabla)

This is usualy not a big problem but sometimes it _is_ a huge source of missinformation... specially if you ran into this bug without knowing about it
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: tautech on July 07, 2019, 09:30:43 pm
Any comments on this, is it good, is it fast, Pros and Cons about it...

the HDO6104 - don`t now if the 4000 too - has a really nasty bug: when the signal reach the "upper corner"  of the screen the signal disappears from the screen - even the parts below the upper corner are not visible.

LeCroy469 with the error for demostration,
LeCroy471 without this error

And they are not willing to fix this. (Cant be done and such blablabla)

This is usualy not a big problem but sometimes it _is_ a huge source of missinformation... specially if you ran into this bug without knowing about it
Is this because the channel is outside the channel offset specification ?
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: JPortici on July 08, 2019, 09:56:00 am
Can't you get a unit on loan for a couple of weeks/a month so you can throughoutly test it?
Even if lecroy won't do it (altough i don't see a reason why. It was never a problem for us and we are a very small business that was interested in ONE unit) i'm sure there are rental services that have them
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on July 08, 2019, 07:04:46 pm
Hi,

You´re right, that should be possible and it´s a good idea too.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: mk_ on July 08, 2019, 08:39:30 pm
Is this because the channel is outside the channel offset specification ?

No. It is a known bug LeCroy is not willing to fix (I don`t remeber their arguments, to silly for a 20k€ instrument.

Usualy the signal below the upper end is still visible, even when the upper part is cutted of. As you can see in the jpgs also the valid signal on the screen disappears...
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: tautech on July 08, 2019, 08:53:50 pm
Is this because the channel is outside the channel offset specification ?

No. It is a known bug LeCroy is not willing to fix (I don`t remeber their arguments, to silly for a 20k€ instrument.

Usualy the signal below the upper end is still visible, even when the upper part is cutted of. As you can see in the jpgs also the valid signal on the screen disappears...
Sure, I understand that however if the 0V position is outside the channel offset specification this sort of behaviour is to be expected.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: nctnico on July 08, 2019, 08:56:47 pm
Hi,

You´re right, that should be possible and it´s a good idea too.
You didn't know that? It is very common practise to get equipment on loan for evaluation. I'd be surprised if companies spend thousands of euros based only on a datasheet or brochure. Purchasing equipment needs to include a thourough examination based on clearly outlined requirements. Better get some other brands over there as well to make a good comparison.

Where is comes to the behaviour shown in the pictures I guess this is due to the sin x/x signal reconstruction. If an ADC value is clipped then the sin x/x reconstruction will likely cause signal distortions which aren't there in reality. I assume Lecroy decided it was better to show nothing instead of a fantasy signal.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on July 08, 2019, 09:32:51 pm
Quote
You didn't know that? It is very common practise to get equipment on loan for evaluation.

Sure I know that, but in the first (and second) moment I didn´t have it in mind.
Will discuss the model choice with our R&D Manager, then start a request.
Until now we use waverunner models, but todays waverunner are very expensive.
More expensive as their 12 bit scope…..
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on August 15, 2019, 08:00:40 pm
Hi,

And now we got a HDO4054A fully armed for 2 weeks on loan... ;)
Since yesterday, so I have already play with it a bit, serious tests will follow.
First impressions…
12.1" screen...really good.
Touchscreen with good response, quick response in general, intel i3 4-core cpu on board, also 8GB ram.
Waste amount of decoding features ( of course, it got all options), spectrum analyzer, power analyzer….
It blasts everything away we got, the WS3024 looks like a toy against, no competition in any way.
And what about my private Rigol MSO5 ?
It´s got more features, it´s got more Samples, it´s got more (much more) Memory, but.....
It´s unfair to compare with the HDO.

And lecroy claim it as their entry-level….

Nice thing, I hope we´ll order one or two.
Parallel to the loan, we got an offer for the 200Mhz model with serial decoding option included(I2C, SPI, UART) for appx 10500€.
Ah, one thing negative...
It´s lightweight, very light...if you press the on/off button, you should better take a hand on the scope.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: genghisnico13 on August 16, 2019, 12:43:59 am
It´s lightweight, very light...if you press the on/off button, you should better take a hand on the scope.

I solved this problem in my RTB2004 by putting a couple of pieces of a anti-slip pad that is sold to put in your car (for keys, phone, etc), I don't know how it's sold where you are but you could probably find it, that is if your manager decides to approve the purchase.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: rf-loop on August 16, 2019, 07:52:07 am
...better to show nothing instead of a fantasy signal.

 :-+

Independent of just this topic... This should be turned into a great lab room wall poster.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on August 18, 2019, 08:09:45 pm
Ah, it´s somekind of funny...
We got older Lecroy stuff here, most of my colleagues grown up with it..
Now the HDO is here and everyone is moaning… ;)
Ah, the screen is big, nice, but why are the labeling so little...damn touchscreen....why it´s booting so long....why using windows 7.....and so on.
Really cute  :D
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on August 27, 2019, 09:12:45 pm
So the test weeks would be gone next friday..
Conclusion personally: This is professional stuff, forget about rigol and siglent their models to compare with it, even some of them are in the same price range.

Comparing to our WS3024 isn´t fair at all, in fact the WS3024(siglent 3000 series) is a joke against in every case.

Huge benefit is the speed at all and the hdo4000 got the dual/quad/octal grid display, like the older waverunners.
This is sometimes a really advantage an I couldn´t understand why it isn´t avaible on rigol or siglent models.
We´re confident about the hdo 4000 and we are willing to order...another model.
Because meanwhile we got offers for an hdo 6000 and waverunner 9054, not so apart away from the price of an hdo 4024a with some options included.

Personally I own the rigol mso 5000 and it´s the best value for it´s money(appx 1000 bucks).
If I had 10000 to spend for, I would never, never ever go for a rigol or siglent model.
If I could "only" spend the half, I won´t go for them either, in this case I would buy a used lecroy waverunner.

Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: tautech on August 29, 2019, 07:22:13 am

If I had 10000 to spend for, I would never, never ever go for a rigol or siglent model.

I hope you can eat those words once you've spent some time with a SDS5000X.
The beta firmware has gone ahead in leaps and bounds since Dave looked at one.

Unfortunately they're still shipped with 8.2R1 so unless your supplier can get their hands on later FW which BTW is now 8.7**.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on October 11, 2019, 07:12:08 pm
Quote
Because meanwhile we got offers for an hdo 6000 and waverunner 9054, not so apart away from the price of an hdo 4024a with some options included.

Today they arrived…. :D

While the hdo6034 looks the same as the 4024a, I was shocked after unpackaging the waverunner - Boy, what a beast…. :o
And the benefit of having 12bits was obviously after feeding a signal (probe cal.) to both.
On the hdo6034 the signal was like "drawed" on the screen so clean, while on the 9054 it appears some noisy.
After playing a while with them, both scopes are great stuff.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: BrianH_Tektronix on October 14, 2019, 06:37:50 pm
In case you haven't seen the whole new family of Tektronix oscilloscopes recently. We have created a whole new set of instruments starting at the new 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, 6 Series and Low Profile families. All with award winning user interfaces, industry low noise, high resolution and come in an assortment of channel configurations from 2 to 8 channels. If you're looking at the LeCroy HDO4000, i'd recommend you get a demo unit of the new 4 Series MSO. You won't be sorry once you see the performance and user interface!

Innovation>> www.tek.com/innovative-scopes (http://www.tek.com/innovative-scopes)


Spec Compare >> www.tek.com/touch-screen-oscilloscope-comparison-table (http://www.tek.com/touch-screen-oscilloscope-comparison-table)

Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on October 14, 2019, 08:03:12 pm
Hi,

Point one : Oh yes, I´ve took also a look to tektronix, especially to the MSO5 series.
But...
We got lecroy specific stuff like current probes, so we wanted to use them still…
Point two: We had a hdo4000 on loan for testing, but now we got a hdo 6000 and a waverunner 9054, which are slightly "better" than a hdo4000.

Nevertheless, the new series from tektronix looks pretty good, no question.
We got the brilliant portable scopes from tektronix and some current probes also (old stuff, but still working and yearly calibrated).

Martin

Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: BrianH_Tektronix on October 14, 2019, 09:21:44 pm
I totally get the whole invested in probes story. We get lots of people using Tek's probes that don't want to change. If you really think the probe is your sticking point for going to Tek, check us out directly and maybe we can negotiate some kind of probe trade in  :-+

Also if you're looking at the HDO6000A you'll find it to be similar to the HDO4000A, but be careful when they start pointing out 10GS/s on all channels, you'll find the slope is slippery when they start comparing artificial sample points to real acquisition hardware. Those systems only provide 2.5GS/s hardware then apply sinx/x interpolation to boost it to 10GS/s.  :palm:

PM me if you have more question.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on October 14, 2019, 09:32:49 pm
Quote
Also if you're looking at the HDO6000A

We don´t looked at it, we got it now... ;)
At this price range we don´t need to talk who is better or worse, tek and lecroy done their homeworks both and therefore it´s no matter at all, just a prefering thing.
I like them both.
And yes, the claimed 12 bit resolution is somekind of a trap…
An "ordinary" scope with 8 bit resolution saves more on e.g. 50mpts Memory than a 12 bit would do...
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: BrianH_Tektronix on October 14, 2019, 10:02:08 pm
Honestly 12-bits is not a trap. You really do get better vertical resolution, calibration and triggering which contribute to being able to see smaller details then you would on a traditional 8-bit scope. The problem becomes how low is the noise and can I see enough digitizing levels on my signal. So it becomes a setup of filtering, reducing bandwidth, and being able to optimize the probe attenuation to see small variations when large signals are present.

On your second comment on memory, you probably get more on a 12-bit scope because the acquisition system has more physical memory behind it, especially with memory getting cheaper every year. So most these instruments can go up to 125Mpts or 250Mpts if record length on each channel, while acquiring at 12-bits. Its really quite amazing!

Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: bson on October 15, 2019, 06:07:36 pm
We got lecroy specific stuff like current probes, so we wanted to use them still…
While your existing probes will work, make sure they're actually supported by LeCroy on the scope you're looking to buy.  Even though they will work, not all probes are supported on all scopes.  Unsupported probes sometimes produce oddities, like the trace may flicker during a measurement, or the offset moves up and down as the probe is auto zeroed.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Berni on October 15, 2019, 06:31:44 pm
I don't have much personal experience with LeCroy scopes but they are generally good scopes in a lot of regards. Sure you may not be getting the exelent bang for buck of a Siglent, but hey if your higher ups are willing to spend the extra money on a quality scope why not.

The 12bit is not just a wank, it does make a difference to how clean your waveform looks, especially on a large screen. Just that the difference might be more apparent on certain signals compared to others.

Also raw performance is not everything with a scope. The user interface can be just as important, since if badly done it can drastically increase the time required to set the scope up for your particular measurement. When the scope is being shared among a lot of people its also helpful that the UI is very intuitive as not everyone will get familiar enough with the scope to push buttons in there sleep. So show the scope to a few people around the company and make them set it up for a measurement on a example board from a messed up state and see how quickly they can figure there way around it.

There is no one single best scope as everyone has slightly different preferences for what they like in a scope.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on October 15, 2019, 07:12:59 pm
Quote
The 12bit is not just a wank, it does make a difference to how clean your waveform looks, especially on a large screen.

Yes, the difference was clear to see, I´ll take a picture from this.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on October 15, 2019, 07:17:44 pm
Also if you're looking at the HDO6000A you'll find it to be similar to the HDO4000A, but be careful when they start pointing out 10GS/s on all channels, you'll find the slope is slippery when they start comparing artificial sample points to real acquisition hardware. Those systems only provide 2.5GS/s hardware then apply sinx/x interpolation to boost it to 10GS/s.  :palm:
Both, the HD4000 and HD6000 series clearly state a sample rate of 2.5GS/s. There is no hint about claiming 10GS/s in the datasheet. Actually 2.5GS/s appears on the front panel. So that accusation seems to lack any foundation.
The only argument that I could agree is that 2.5GS/s isn't that much for scopes going up to 1GHz. I guess this might the price to pay for the 12bit sampling. E.g. the cheaper Waverunner 510 features 10GS/s but is limited to 8bit.

Anyway, LeCroy seems to be much more honest in this aspect than Tektronix as the Tek 5's maximum sample rate of 6.25GS/s limits the ADC resolution to 8bit. The 12bit resolution is only available up to 3.125GS/s - which is a bit better than 2.5GS/s but not something to brag about. E.g. the much cheaper R&S RTM3000 allows 10bit sampling at 5GS/s - admittedly interleaved (i.e. only on two channels) but it doesn't drop to 8bit.
Besides, at least the 2GHz models of the series 5 seem to have bandwidth limitations for the low voltage ranges (<=5mv/div). There seems to be an error in the datasheet btw.(the footnotes mention always 1mv/div but refer to 2mV/div and 5mV/div as well).


Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on October 15, 2019, 07:34:50 pm
In the data sheet, it´s 10GS/s with "enhanced sample rate" - whatever this means...
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: nctnico on October 15, 2019, 07:40:29 pm
I think the enhanced samplerate is a elegant term for sin x/x signal reconstruction. This doesn't need to be bad perse but it depends on the front-end filter. These is probably some signal processing going on.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on October 15, 2019, 07:44:25 pm
Anyway, this was obviously added in the specs for the "A" models. I had a look in the original HDO4000/6000 datasheets and they clearly stated 2.5GS/s.
Boy, I miss the time when a Lecroy 6Zi had (real) 20GS/s for 600MHz and even 40GS/s for >=2GHz or so.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on October 15, 2019, 08:06:24 pm
Our new waverunner got 20Gs/s (2Ch) or 10GS/s(4Ch). The "M" versions from it got it double.

Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: BrianH_Tektronix on October 17, 2019, 06:18:21 pm
Anyway, this was obviously added in the specs for the "A" models. I had a look in the original HDO4000/6000 datasheets and they clearly stated 2.5GS/s.
Boy, I miss the time when a Lecroy 6Zi had (real) 20GS/s for 600MHz and even 40GS/s for >=2GHz or so.

Yes I was referring to the HDO-A models when stating the 10GS/s is interpolation. That is independent of Sinx/x or linear interpolation which can be applied on standard sampling. Interpolation is best estimated points between real sample points, fyi its extra math. It can not help with nyquist bandwidth improvements. Be careful and always compare HW sample rate to HW sample rate...

On your other statement, the Tek scopes provide industry leading 6.25GS/s on all 8 channels. Regardless of 8 or 12-bits, thats a lot of sample rate in a single box. You'll only benefit from 12-bits if the noise is low enough, and to be honest most 2GHz scopes have ENOB below 8-bits because of the noise limitation. As have been noted in lots of previous threads, Tek at 6.25GS/s on the 5 Series and 25GS/s on the 6 Series can transfer 8-bits to memory at max sample rate, and the ADC is always capturing at 12-bits. There is a memory throughput maximum of 25GB/s from the chipset. So you need to 1/2 the sample rate to go into 16-bit data transfer mode. You can easily press the High Res button on the front panel too. As it will drop the sample rate and apply extra filtering to optimize the scope for best vertical resolution viewing.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on October 17, 2019, 06:52:42 pm
On your other statement, the Tek scopes provide industry leading 6.25GS/s on all 8 channels. Regardless of 8 or 12-bits, thats a lot of sample rate in a single box.
If at all, 6.25GS/s on 8 channels may be somewhat unique. I'm actually not even sure it is, but am just too lazy to investigate further.
As 6.25GS/s can be only used with 8bit, that's not even close to "industry leading". E.g. a WaveRunner 9254M has 20GS/s on 4 channels and 40GS/s on 2.
And of course this isn't the bleeding edge yet, but everything above that is more in the "investment" league.

As have been noted in lots of previous threads, Tek at 6.25GS/s on the 5 Series and 25GS/s on the 6 Series can transfer 8-bits to memory at max sample rate, and the ADC is always capturing at 12-bits. There is a memory throughput maximum of 25GB/s from the chipset. So you need to 1/2 the sample rate to go into 16-bit data transfer mode. You can easily press the High Res button on the front panel too. As it will drop the sample rate and apply extra filtering to optimize the scope for best vertical resolution viewing.
So OK, it's a chipset bandwidth limitation that doesn't allow to use 12bit at 6.25GS/s. Understandable, maybe not a real world issue for high frequencies, but still a limitation worth noting when comparing sample rates.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Berni on October 17, 2019, 07:45:49 pm
I think the industry leading part is "having 8 channels at 6.25GS/s", id say that's pretty impressive for the category this scope is aimed at.

The datasheet for the Tektronix 5 series does clearly state:
8 bits @ 6.25 GS/s
12 bits @ 3.125 GS/s
13 bits @ 1.25 GS/s (High Res)
14 bits @ 625 MS/s (High Res)
15 bits @ 312.5 MS/s (High Res)
16 bits @ ≤125 MS/s (High Res)

But yeah it is a bit misleading calling it a 12bit scope (And it does have a 12bit converter in it) and then also slapping on the 6.25GS/s number.

The Tektronix 5 series datasheet does appear to downplay the RMS noise performance of it (If not, then the AFE in this scope is quite a noisy one):
[attachimg=2]
All of this claims to be in High Res mode. Keep in mind that the values for < 10mV/div 50Ohm on the 2GHz model start dropping off in bandwidth down to only 175MHz (1mV/div) even tho the column is labeled 1GHz

Compared to the Keysight Infiniium 9000 series that is about 10 years old (the 9014A is the 1GHz model):
[attachimg=1]
Where no special high res mode is used on this scope, while only having a 8bit ADC (I did check on my scope, the table matches when running in 50Ohm, Normal mode 20GS/s). The numbers look pretty similar to the Tek with its 12bit ADC.

However the Infiniium 9000 does also have a high resolution mode that can be turned on on top of this, but when it is turned all the way up to 12bit the sample rate drops off to only 2.5GS/s and the channels bandwidth drops to 550MHz but it also results in a RMS(AC) noise of 99uV on the 10mV/div range. Dialing it back to 11bit in order to get us to a more Tek comparable 5GS/s 1.12 GHz of bandwidth and a RMS noise of 150uV. So significantly better than the 12bit Tek

Infact looking up the LeCroy HDO6000 (Another true 12bit ADC scope) the RMS noise spec for 1GHz 10mV/div is 155uV. This is 5uV worse than my Keysight 9000 that is pretending to be 12bit on its old 8bit ADC.

As you see having a 12bit ADC might not be as big of a advantage as it sounds.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Berni on October 17, 2019, 08:02:34 pm
And to put money where my mouth is here are screenshots of a RMS(AC) noise test on a Keysight Infiniium MSO9254

EDIT: For the sake of completeness also added a 20MHz bandwidth limited screenshot (Tho unlike the 12bit high res mode this bandwidth limit does not happen inside the acquisition ASIC but is done in software so its a significant speed penalty)
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on October 18, 2019, 04:57:11 pm
Quote
While the hdo6034 looks the same as the 4024a, I was shocked after unpackaging the waverunner - Boy, what a beast….

Two pics, hdo6034a vs wafesurfer 3024, 12" vs. 10" Display.
And then the wr9054....

Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: tautech on October 18, 2019, 07:49:42 pm
Interesting, multiplexed vertical controls in this class of instrument.

Do they annoy you much ?
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on October 18, 2019, 08:28:25 pm
Hi,
I´ve been "growing up" in the last 16yrs with lecroy scopes, especially waverunners (LT series) and they all have no separate vertical controls.
So it annoying me not much, but sometimes….
When you work with all channels displaying it´s not comfortable to select the channel first, then move it.
But I could live with it.
What´s impressing is the fast response of both scopes, comparing to the ws3024, ok a little bit unfair.
The ws3024 was a try to establish a new general purpose scope for simply testing and service.
Our new scopes (hdo and waverunner) will be used for advanced tasks, nevertheless we´re still looking for a pricy but good enough scope for the daily work.
Because the ws3024 was a disappointment in nearly every case.
Plus the still available bugs…
They promised to fixed them, but after over a year nothing happens.
The SDS5000 could be the better choice, but there is the problem not to get the special lecroy stuff connecting to it  (current probes).
And one point on the hdo/wr is really annoying for us….
The tracking function for the measure gate, known from the old waverunners but also known from rigol/siglent scopes, is missing on both new scopes.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: tautech on October 18, 2019, 08:36:56 pm

The SDS5000 could be the better choice, but there is the problem not to get the special lecroy stuff connecting to it  (current probes).
Adapters for LeCroy active probes are coming and before years end according to the factory.

Quote
And one point on the hdo/wr is really annoying for us….
The tracking function for the measure gate, known from the old waverunners but also known from rigol/siglent scopes, is missing on both new scopes.
OK later when I get some time I'll grab a screenshot from my SDS5104X  ;) SDS5054X...other things to do this morning.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on October 18, 2019, 08:53:33 pm
Quote
Adapters for LeCroy active probes are coming and before years end according to the factory.

Ahh….
This could be a real game changer.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: tautech on October 18, 2019, 11:01:59 pm
Quote
Adapters for LeCroy active probes are coming and before years end according to the factory.

Ahh….
This could be a real game changer.
Yep and TekProbe adapter coming early next year.  :)
Mentioned here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2690724/#msg2690724 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2690724/#msg2690724)
Quote
And one point on the hdo/wr is really annoying for us….
The tracking function for the measure gate, known from the old waverunners but also known from rigol/siglent scopes, is missing on both new scopes.
Had a quick play with 5 KHz sine sweeping over 4.5-5.5 KHz for 5s and tracking cursors but I got the Gate wrong and used Zone triggering not Measure gate.  :palm:

Measurements track fine on the Y axis but it seems the X axis is fixed  :(

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lecroy-hdo-4000-12-bit-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=857292)

I'll have a bit more investigation.........

OK, now with a measurement gate (white dotted lines) but it seems unrelated to tracking cursors.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lecroy-hdo-4000-12-bit-scope/?action=dlattach;attach=857298)
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Performa01 on October 19, 2019, 02:49:23 am
@tautech ... no need to struggle. The discussion about tracking gates is quite old and Martin72 is certainly aware of the capabilities in Siglent X-series DSOs - I believe he has access to an SDS1104X-E.

Furthermore, I've already demonstrated the gating options quite a while ago, see reply #202 here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2418549/#msg2418549 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/at-last-siglent_s-sds5054x-touchscreen/msg2418549/#msg2418549)

Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: Martin72 on October 19, 2019, 12:34:29 pm
Hi,

Quote
OK, now with a measurement gate (white dotted lines) but it seems unrelated to tracking cursors.

Yep.
You can define a gate through the dotted lines and what´s inbetween would be measured.
Every modern scope got it, the new lecroys too.
But what they not got is the tracking function of the measurement gate ( of course, by cursors they got it)like older lecroys had it.
Example given:
We measure the loadstep behaviour of our Inverters. They got sinewave output.
We measure this sinewave for three cycles after the loadstep.
1st cycle XYZ Vrms, 2nd cycle, 3rd cycle…
So we define a gate which is one cycle wide and measure the voltage inbetween.
Then the next cycle and so on.
So if you have the tracking function, it´s an easy thing, once defined you could simply move this gate over the screen.
Now we must define the gate for every cycle new , that´s a little bit annoying  ;)
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: 0xdeadbeef on October 19, 2019, 12:51:08 pm
Wouldn't this something to use WaveScan for on a LeCroy? I'm not 100% sure that it will work for your case, but e.g. when I first wrote a SENT decoder in 2006 or so, I used WaveScan to analyze SENT patterns with period (falling edge to falling edge) measurements. So I had a list of periods in WaveScan which I could use to check instead of trying to trigger on a message start (CAL pulse) and measuring the periods after that with gating.
This kind of stuff is really missing in most other scopes.
Title: Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
Post by: nctnico on October 19, 2019, 01:32:38 pm
As you see having a 12bit ADC might not be as big of a advantage as it sounds.
At high samplerates you'll also run into another problem: the jitter on the clock for the ADC is becoming a major noise contributor. IIRC to get 10bits ENOB from an ADC clocked at 250MHz (250Ms/s) you'll need a clock with less than a ps of jitter. Now scale that up to 12 bit and several GHz. Something has to give. Still I think having more bits is beneficial for measuring lower frequency signals with more detail. Oversampling to get more bits doesn't make non-linearities in the ADC go away and without enough/good noise it can play nasty tricks. So in the end there is no substitute for real ADC resolution.