Author Topic: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope  (Read 2409 times)

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Offline Martin72

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Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« on: July 06, 2019, 09:28:25 pm »
Hi Everyone,

At last, we want new scopes - And we want it from Lecroy for serveral reasons.
Me personally would prefer siglents new 5000 series, but our Departement Manager want Lecroy.
Nevertheless, after almost bad experiences with the lecroy WS 3024, we´re looking for the HDO 4000 series….
Any comments on this, is it good, is it fast, Pros and Cons about it...
As we used the Waverunner series for almost 20 yrs, the Waverunner 8000 series is a competion to the 12bit HDO 4000 ?

Martin

Offline nctnico

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2019, 06:51:04 pm »
I'd be looking to see if the oscilloscope has enough processing power under the hood to do something meaningfull with the acquired data. The Siglent 5000 series is probably a good choice in the lower cost segment but it needs many more refinements to increase the productivity level when using it. I'm also wary whether the Siglent 5000 series has enough power under the hood to process all the data it can acquire. For business use spending more on the equipment likely pays back by being able to make measurements quicker. The cheapest solution to buy may not be the cheapest solution to use. The old saying goes: penny wise, pound foolish. Being 'burned' by the slow and handicapped WS3000 series should be taken as a serious lesson.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 07:00:35 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2019, 07:08:54 pm »
Quote
Being 'burned' by the slow and handicapped WS3000 series should be taken as a serious lesson.

Yes indeed.
Awful slow and still buggy so the actual WS3000Z series isn´t interesting for us, the next "level" would be the Wavesurfer 510, but we don´t need 1ghz bw.
So the HDO4000A series could be the next for us.
Siglent SDS 5000 series would also fulfill our needs, costs 3 times less than a HDO4024A, but isn´t wanted here for some reasons.

Quote
I hate to break it to you, but Siglent and LeCroy are partners

I know about it, but this wasn´t my question.

Offline mk_

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2019, 09:00:11 pm »
Any comments on this, is it good, is it fast, Pros and Cons about it...

the HDO6104 - don`t now if the 4000 too - has a really nasty bug: when the signal reach the "upper corner"  of the screen the signal disappears from the screen - even the parts below the upper corner are not visible.

LeCroy469 with the error for demostration,
LeCroy471 without this error

And they are not willing to fix this. (Cant be done and such blablabla)

This is usualy not a big problem but sometimes it _is_ a huge source of missinformation... specially if you ran into this bug without knowing about it
 

Online tautech

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2019, 09:30:43 pm »
Any comments on this, is it good, is it fast, Pros and Cons about it...

the HDO6104 - don`t now if the 4000 too - has a really nasty bug: when the signal reach the "upper corner"  of the screen the signal disappears from the screen - even the parts below the upper corner are not visible.

LeCroy469 with the error for demostration,
LeCroy471 without this error

And they are not willing to fix this. (Cant be done and such blablabla)

This is usualy not a big problem but sometimes it _is_ a huge source of missinformation... specially if you ran into this bug without knowing about it
Is this because the channel is outside the channel offset specification ?
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Offline JPortici

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2019, 09:56:00 am »
Can't you get a unit on loan for a couple of weeks/a month so you can throughoutly test it?
Even if lecroy won't do it (altough i don't see a reason why. It was never a problem for us and we are a very small business that was interested in ONE unit) i'm sure there are rental services that have them
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2019, 07:04:46 pm »
Hi,

You´re right, that should be possible and it´s a good idea too.

Offline mk_

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2019, 08:39:30 pm »
Is this because the channel is outside the channel offset specification ?

No. It is a known bug LeCroy is not willing to fix (I don`t remeber their arguments, to silly for a 20k€ instrument.

Usualy the signal below the upper end is still visible, even when the upper part is cutted of. As you can see in the jpgs also the valid signal on the screen disappears...
 

Online tautech

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2019, 08:53:50 pm »
Is this because the channel is outside the channel offset specification ?

No. It is a known bug LeCroy is not willing to fix (I don`t remeber their arguments, to silly for a 20k€ instrument.

Usualy the signal below the upper end is still visible, even when the upper part is cutted of. As you can see in the jpgs also the valid signal on the screen disappears...
Sure, I understand that however if the 0V position is outside the channel offset specification this sort of behaviour is to be expected.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2019, 08:56:47 pm »
Hi,

You´re right, that should be possible and it´s a good idea too.
You didn't know that? It is very common practise to get equipment on loan for evaluation. I'd be surprised if companies spend thousands of euros based only on a datasheet or brochure. Purchasing equipment needs to include a thourough examination based on clearly outlined requirements. Better get some other brands over there as well to make a good comparison.

Where is comes to the behaviour shown in the pictures I guess this is due to the sin x/x signal reconstruction. If an ADC value is clipped then the sin x/x reconstruction will likely cause signal distortions which aren't there in reality. I assume Lecroy decided it was better to show nothing instead of a fantasy signal.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2019, 09:01:39 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2019, 09:32:51 pm »
Quote
You didn't know that? It is very common practise to get equipment on loan for evaluation.

Sure I know that, but in the first (and second) moment I didn´t have it in mind.
Will discuss the model choice with our R&D Manager, then start a request.
Until now we use waverunner models, but todays waverunner are very expensive.
More expensive as their 12 bit scope…..

Offline Martin72

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2019, 08:00:40 pm »
Hi,

And now we got a HDO4054A fully armed for 2 weeks on loan... ;)
Since yesterday, so I have already play with it a bit, serious tests will follow.
First impressions…
12.1" screen...really good.
Touchscreen with good response, quick response in general, intel i3 4-core cpu on board, also 8GB ram.
Waste amount of decoding features ( of course, it got all options), spectrum analyzer, power analyzer….
It blasts everything away we got, the WS3024 looks like a toy against, no competition in any way.
And what about my private Rigol MSO5 ?
It´s got more features, it´s got more Samples, it´s got more (much more) Memory, but.....
It´s unfair to compare with the HDO.

And lecroy claim it as their entry-level….

Nice thing, I hope we´ll order one or two.
Parallel to the loan, we got an offer for the 200Mhz model with serial decoding option included(I2C, SPI, UART) for appx 10500€.
Ah, one thing negative...
It´s lightweight, very light...if you press the on/off button, you should better take a hand on the scope.
 
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Offline genghisnico13

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2019, 12:43:59 am »
It´s lightweight, very light...if you press the on/off button, you should better take a hand on the scope.

I solved this problem in my RTB2004 by putting a couple of pieces of a anti-slip pad that is sold to put in your car (for keys, phone, etc), I don't know how it's sold where you are but you could probably find it, that is if your manager decides to approve the purchase.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2019, 07:52:07 am »
...better to show nothing instead of a fantasy signal.

 :-+

Independent of just this topic... This should be turned into a great lab room wall poster.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory  is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
It is much easier to think an apple fall to the ground than to think that the earth and the apple will begin to move toward each other and collide.
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2019, 08:09:45 pm »
Ah, it´s somekind of funny...
We got older Lecroy stuff here, most of my colleagues grown up with it..
Now the HDO is here and everyone is moaning… ;)
Ah, the screen is big, nice, but why are the labeling so little...damn touchscreen....why it´s booting so long....why using windows 7.....and so on.
Really cute  :D

Offline Martin72

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2019, 09:12:45 pm »
So the test weeks would be gone next friday..
Conclusion personally: This is professional stuff, forget about rigol and siglent their models to compare with it, even some of them are in the same price range.

Comparing to our WS3024 isn´t fair at all, in fact the WS3024(siglent 3000 series) is a joke against in every case.

Huge benefit is the speed at all and the hdo4000 got the dual/quad/octal grid display, like the older waverunners.
This is sometimes a really advantage an I couldn´t understand why it isn´t avaible on rigol or siglent models.
We´re confident about the hdo 4000 and we are willing to order...another model.
Because meanwhile we got offers for an hdo 6000 and waverunner 9054, not so apart away from the price of an hdo 4024a with some options included.

Personally I own the rigol mso 5000 and it´s the best value for it´s money(appx 1000 bucks).
If I had 10000 to spend for, I would never, never ever go for a rigol or siglent model.
If I could "only" spend the half, I won´t go for them either, in this case I would buy a used lecroy waverunner.


Online tautech

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2019, 07:22:13 am »

If I had 10000 to spend for, I would never, never ever go for a rigol or siglent model.

I hope you can eat those words once you've spent some time with a SDS5000X.
The beta firmware has gone ahead in leaps and bounds since Dave looked at one.

Unfortunately they're still shipped with 8.2R1 so unless your supplier can get their hands on later FW which BTW is now 8.7**.
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2019, 07:12:08 pm »
Quote
Because meanwhile we got offers for an hdo 6000 and waverunner 9054, not so apart away from the price of an hdo 4024a with some options included.

Today they arrived…. :D

While the hdo6034 looks the same as the 4024a, I was shocked after unpackaging the waverunner - Boy, what a beast…. :o
And the benefit of having 12bits was obviously after feeding a signal (probe cal.) to both.
On the hdo6034 the signal was like "drawed" on the screen so clean, while on the 9054 it appears some noisy.
After playing a while with them, both scopes are great stuff.

Offline BrianH_Tektronix

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2019, 06:37:50 pm »
In case you haven't seen the whole new family of Tektronix oscilloscopes recently. We have created a whole new set of instruments starting at the new 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, 6 Series and Low Profile families. All with award winning user interfaces, industry low noise, high resolution and come in an assortment of channel configurations from 2 to 8 channels. If you're looking at the LeCroy HDO4000, i'd recommend you get a demo unit of the new 4 Series MSO. You won't be sorry once you see the performance and user interface!

Innovation>> www.tek.com/innovative-scopes


Spec Compare >> www.tek.com/touch-screen-oscilloscope-comparison-table

Product Marketing Manager & NPI planner, Tektronix Low Profile Scopes & Digitizers
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2019, 08:03:12 pm »
Hi,

Point one : Oh yes, I´ve took also a look to tektronix, especially to the MSO5 series.
But...
We got lecroy specific stuff like current probes, so we wanted to use them still…
Point two: We had a hdo4000 on loan for testing, but now we got a hdo 6000 and a waverunner 9054, which are slightly "better" than a hdo4000.

Nevertheless, the new series from tektronix looks pretty good, no question.
We got the brilliant portable scopes from tektronix and some current probes also (old stuff, but still working and yearly calibrated).

Martin


Offline BrianH_Tektronix

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2019, 09:21:44 pm »
I totally get the whole invested in probes story. We get lots of people using Tek's probes that don't want to change. If you really think the probe is your sticking point for going to Tek, check us out directly and maybe we can negotiate some kind of probe trade in  :-+

Also if you're looking at the HDO6000A you'll find it to be similar to the HDO4000A, but be careful when they start pointing out 10GS/s on all channels, you'll find the slope is slippery when they start comparing artificial sample points to real acquisition hardware. Those systems only provide 2.5GS/s hardware then apply sinx/x interpolation to boost it to 10GS/s.  :palm:

PM me if you have more question.
Product Marketing Manager & NPI planner, Tektronix Low Profile Scopes & Digitizers
 

Offline Martin72

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2019, 09:32:49 pm »
Quote
Also if you're looking at the HDO6000A

We don´t looked at it, we got it now... ;)
At this price range we don´t need to talk who is better or worse, tek and lecroy done their homeworks both and therefore it´s no matter at all, just a prefering thing.
I like them both.
And yes, the claimed 12 bit resolution is somekind of a trap…
An "ordinary" scope with 8 bit resolution saves more on e.g. 50mpts Memory than a 12 bit would do...

Offline BrianH_Tektronix

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2019, 10:02:08 pm »
Honestly 12-bits is not a trap. You really do get better vertical resolution, calibration and triggering which contribute to being able to see smaller details then you would on a traditional 8-bit scope. The problem becomes how low is the noise and can I see enough digitizing levels on my signal. So it becomes a setup of filtering, reducing bandwidth, and being able to optimize the probe attenuation to see small variations when large signals are present.

On your second comment on memory, you probably get more on a 12-bit scope because the acquisition system has more physical memory behind it, especially with memory getting cheaper every year. So most these instruments can go up to 125Mpts or 250Mpts if record length on each channel, while acquiring at 12-bits. Its really quite amazing!

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Offline bson

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2019, 06:07:36 pm »
We got lecroy specific stuff like current probes, so we wanted to use them still…
While your existing probes will work, make sure they're actually supported by LeCroy on the scope you're looking to buy.  Even though they will work, not all probes are supported on all scopes.  Unsupported probes sometimes produce oddities, like the trace may flicker during a measurement, or the offset moves up and down as the probe is auto zeroed.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: Lecroy HDO 4000 12 Bit Scope
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2019, 06:31:44 pm »
I don't have much personal experience with LeCroy scopes but they are generally good scopes in a lot of regards. Sure you may not be getting the exelent bang for buck of a Siglent, but hey if your higher ups are willing to spend the extra money on a quality scope why not.

The 12bit is not just a wank, it does make a difference to how clean your waveform looks, especially on a large screen. Just that the difference might be more apparent on certain signals compared to others.

Also raw performance is not everything with a scope. The user interface can be just as important, since if badly done it can drastically increase the time required to set the scope up for your particular measurement. When the scope is being shared among a lot of people its also helpful that the UI is very intuitive as not everyone will get familiar enough with the scope to push buttons in there sleep. So show the scope to a few people around the company and make them set it up for a measurement on a example board from a messed up state and see how quickly they can figure there way around it.

There is no one single best scope as everyone has slightly different preferences for what they like in a scope.
 


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