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Let’s Talk About LeCroy Scopes, AKA… the “Wuerstchenhund Holds Court” Thread

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HighVoltage:
I had bought a Lecroy Wavejet 354 500 MHz and was full of anticipation to use it.
It was small and cute and that is where the fun stopped.

- It was soooooo loud from the air ventilation, it was impossible to work next to it
- As soon as any math function was turned on, the scope became not responsive anymore.
- Slow response in general on the GUI
- A huge area of the screen is wasted for menu options, even if they are not used
- Getting data of the scope was possible but not easy.
- and so much more, I am happy I forgot!

Guess what, I returned it after a few weeks!
And I will probably never have a LeCroy again!






XFDDesign:
I actually picked up a WaveSurver 3054 earlier this year to replace a Tek scope that went into the recycling bin.

I find the probes to be well made, especially compared to the new Tektronix probes which I have a hard time getting repeatable contacts with. The unit on whole is actually pretty silent. I don't much care for the touch screen, if only for the fact it doesn't seem to be as responsive as I would like.

The math operations are quite nice, and LeCroy has done some very clever work with managing the display when you do different tasks (i.e. you can have an FFT get its own part of the window, without being on top of your traces).

I'm very impressed with the fact that the scope still operates as a scope, while the FFT engine crunches numbers. I'll keep getting waveforms while it's computing. My old junked TDS5k couldn't do that. The built in, low freq, arb is actually quite nice as well, having a damn good SFDR compared to most off-the-shelf ARBs.

Wuerstchenhund:

--- Quote from: free_electron on November 10, 2015, 06:11:21 pm ----Plastic rotary knobs that split and then fall off (all of em, the plastic becomes hard and brittle over time),

--- End quote ---

Yes, that was pretty common on the 9300 Series (mid ''90s) and the WaveRunner LT (late '90s), falling off knobs was pretty much their trademark. With the WR2LT and WavePro 900 the knobs were changed, and much more durable, and aside from early production runs of the WR(M)Xi (2006) and falling off "Superknobs" on early production runs of the WaveRunner 6zi (2009) that wasn't much of a problem. Plus LeCroy often just sent you a batch of replacement knobs (usually the improved variant).


--- Quote ----Removable frontpanels gimmicks that become a bad contact nightmare (7ZI series)
--- End quote ---

Yes, the removable frontpanel (the whole panel can be removed and connected to the scope via USB cable so that you can have the controls close to your workspace, which I find pretty neat) on early WP7zi units had contact problems with the USB sockets when they were plugged in the unit. That was fixed pretty quickly out in the field and in production.


--- Quote ----Slow as molasses to respond to their UI (7000 series, 7Zi)
--- End quote ---

Not really. I worked on 7zi and 7zi-A, and there's nothing slow on these scopes. I also have a WavePro 7000A in my private lab, and again, no slowness here. Some of the earlier WavePro 7000 (non-A) which were sold with Windows 2000 were somewhat laggy when operating the front panel, this was improved in later software updates, and these days these scopes should be upgraded to XP anyways as otherwise they're stuck on an antique firmware.

I vaguely remember that last time you listed your "dislikes" you mentioned that they were still on Windows 2000 running an older software. If so then maybe you should try XP and the current firmware, and your problem should be gone.


--- Quote ----Become more noisy than a hoover vacuum as soon as you do anything with em ( 7Zi series )
--- End quote ---

Yes, they are nosiy. So are pretty much all multi-GHz high end scopes (the DSO90k will blow your brains out). That is mostly because these scopes develop an extensive amount of heat that needs to be removed somehow.


--- Quote ----Crappy probes where the pogo-tips break off in the grabber hooks.
--- End quote ---

Never happened to me. And I have not exactly the most sensitive hands.


--- Quote ----Endless "calibrating" messages and "triggering" messages .. with 4 to 10 seconds blind times. ( come on, make an ADc that doesn't drift will ya ! No other scope manufacturer needs that crap)
--- End quote ---

If you get endless "calibrating" and "triggering" messages then your scope is either defective or you're doing something wrong (actually, endless "calibration" was one of the bugs on earlier WavePro 7000 and 8000 scopes).

And if you think that other manufacturer's ADCs don't drift then you're wrong, they pretty much drift exactly the same, just the scope doesn't bother to compensate for it.

BTW, you know that you can disable the auto calibration? You should, as I'm pretty sure I told you before  ;)


--- Quote ---- buggy user interfaces. one The 7000 and 7300  DSA's : spin the timebase knob too fast and the scope bluescreens... whoopdedoo. STILL not fixed after 10 years of complaining !
--- End quote ---

Of course the problem has been fixed, pretty much in one of the earlier Windows 2000 software releases.


--- Quote ---- bass ackwards functionality. Like store traces in memory , perform an acquisition , scroll and you lose time lock between memory and acquisition... duh !
--- End quote ---

Never noticed that, but considering that the other software issues you mentioned have been fixed long ago this could well be another case of outdated software.

BTW, these problems are not limited to LeCroy, I've seen more than my fair share of annoying and aggravating bugs on Agilent scopes as well. That's why the software can be updated.


--- Quote ---The problem with LeCroy machinery is that these products started as very fast, deep memory samplers to be used in the physics department. They still have that mindset. They don't behave like what you'd normally expect from a scope. They have their strange quirks that make sense if you treat em as deep memory fast samplers. Not so much as you'd expect from a scope.
--- End quote ---

I work almost exclusively with high end scopes, mostly with Agilent/Keysight, and aside from UI and functional differences (i.e. some stuff that's available on one scope or but not another) a LeCroy scope pretty much behaves like any other scope. The only "strange" quirk is the swapped horizontal and vertical controls, the rest is pretty straight forward.


--- Quote ---LeCroy also fails miserably when trying to integrate stuff. Their foray into mixed signal ( the want to have 16 or 32 digital channels) was a disaster. They used a third party to design that block and the integration was a disaster. The damn thing was so buggy on its UI that a selected block to zoom in on would show a completely different block.
--- End quote ---

That would be the MS-32 MSO option that I mentioned earlier, and yes, it was buggy like hell and pretty useless. However, that thing came out around 2003, and in the last 12 years things have changed a bit. The later MS-250 and MS-500 MSO options for WaveRunner MXi and WaveSurfer MXs are actually pretty good, and aside from the fact that the MSO boxes are a bit large and cumbersome the MSO performance is pretty much on a similar level as what you can get from Keysight.


--- Quote ---The same goes for their current probes. Overpriced rebadged Hioki's to make em compatible with their crappy 6 pin pinheader scope connector.
--- End quote ---

I can't complain over Hioki, their probes are actually pretty good. I also don't know what is "crappy" on the 6pin header that is part of ProBus, the probe interface they now use pretty much unchanged for over 20 years and which has proven to be pretty solid, but if that's your opinion then fine.

Wuerstchenhund:

--- Quote from: HighVoltage on November 10, 2015, 06:33:32 pm ---I had bought a Lecroy Wavejet 354 500 MHz and was full of anticipation to use it.
It was small and cute and that is where the fun stopped.

- It was soooooo loud from the air ventilation, it was impossible to work next to it
- As soon as any math function was turned on, the scope became not responsive anymore.
- Slow response in general on the GUI
- A huge area of the screen is wasted for menu options, even if they are not used
- Getting data of the scope was possible but not easy.
- and so much more, I am happy I forgot!

Guess what, I returned it after a few weeks!
--- End quote ---

Good for you, why keep it if it doesn't satisfy your expectations. That's why one should always ask for loaners of all scopes one considers for purchase.

I guess this must have been a while ago, probably ten years or more. The WaveJet 300 came out in 2004, and in 2007 was replaced by the WaveJet 300A (which was replaced by the WaveJet 300T Dave reviewed recently).

The WaveJets are rebadged Iwatsu scopes (the 300 is a DS-5000 if I remember right), the only part that comes from LeCroy is the brand name. They are not bad scopes but as you said the original WaveJet was noisy, and the UI was reminescent on the old Tek UIs of the '90s. In 2004 the WaveJet was a very good offer, but these days its specs are pretty unimpressive.


--- Quote ---And I will probably never have a LeCroy again!
--- End quote ---

Well, never say never, each brand has come up with lemons, and while LeCroy's low end scopes are pretty poor, their scopes like the WaveSurfer 3000 and up are really good.

joeqsmith:

--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on November 10, 2015, 07:35:51 pm ---
--- Quote from: free_electron on November 10, 2015, 06:11:21 pm ----Plastic rotary knobs that split and then fall off (all of em, the plastic becomes hard and brittle over time),

--- End quote ---

Yes, that was pretty common on the 9300 Series (mid ''90s) and the WaveRunner LT (late '90s), falling off knobs was pretty much their trademark. With the WR2LT and WavePro 900 the knobs were changed, and much more durable, and aside from early production runs of the WR(M)Xi (2006) and falling off "Superknobs" on early production runs of the WaveRunner 6zi (2009) that wasn't much of a problem. Plus LeCroy often just sent you a batch of replacement knobs (usually the improved variant).

--- End quote ---

The sent me all new knobs for the old Waverunner and these have not been a problem.  Very tight fit.   I have not hand any problems with my old 7200/As or my WM.   

Said it before but the case on the Waverunner is not the highest quality and don't get me started on those connector failures.   I do like the scope now that I have had it for a while and I will say that LeCroy has really pulled through and helped me out with it.     



--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on November 10, 2015, 07:35:51 pm ---
--- Quote ----Slow as molasses to respond to their UI (7000 series, 7Zi)
--- End quote ---

Not really. I worked on 7zi and 7zi-A, and there's nothing slow on these scopes. I also have a WavePro 7000A in my private lab, and again, no slowness here. Some of the earlier WavePro 7000 (non-A) which were sold with Windows 2000 were somewhat laggy when operating the front panel, this was improved in later software updates, and these days these scopes should be upgraded to XP anyways as otherwise they're stuck on an antique firmware.

I vaguely remember that last time you listed your "dislikes" you mentioned that they were still on Windows 2000 running an older software. If so then maybe you should try XP and the current firmware, and your problem should be gone.
--- End quote ---

Even my old 7200s are fairly responsive when you consider their age.   I was not impressed with that Waverunner when I first got it but again, adding the RAM and putting the SSD in it really woke it up.   You know it's been in there almost a year now?   Not bad for something that was not going to work.  :-DD   BTW Wuerstchenhund,  did you end up installing that SSD in yours?   If so, any problems?   


--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on November 10, 2015, 07:35:51 pm ---
--- Quote ----Become more noisy than a hoover vacuum as soon as you do anything with em ( 7Zi series )
--- End quote ---

Yes, they are nosiy. So are pretty much all multi-GHz high end scopes (the DSO90k will blow your brains out). That is mostly because these scopes develop an extensive amount of heat that needs to be removed somehow.
--- End quote ---

 :-+   I would guess my i7 laptop makes less noise than my first IBM PC.   Really, I think my WM is about as loud as my old 7200A and throws out near the same heat for 10X higher BW and 20X higher sample rate and .......   I don't see this trend changing.   


--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on November 10, 2015, 07:35:51 pm ---
--- Quote ----Crappy probes where the pogo-tips break off in the grabber hooks.
--- End quote ---

Never happened to me. And I have not exactly the most sensitive hands.
--- End quote ---

 :-//   I have no complaints about their standard 10X probes I have used.   I have had to repair some of their GHz differential probes that had the tips broke off (not by me). 



--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on November 10, 2015, 07:35:51 pm ---
--- Quote ----Endless "calibrating" messages and "triggering" messages .. with 4 to 10 seconds blind times. ( come on, make an ADc that doesn't drift will ya ! No other scope manufacturer needs that crap)
--- End quote ---

If you get endless "calibrating" and "triggering" messages then your scope is either defective or you're doing something wrong (actually, endless "calibration" was one of the bugs on earlier WavePro 7000 and 8000 scopes).

And if you think that other manufacturer's ADCs don't drift then you're wrong, they pretty much drift exactly the same, just the scope doesn't bother to compensate for it.

BTW, you know that you can disable the auto calibration? You should, as I'm pretty sure I told you before  ;)
--- End quote ---

 :-DD  Stupid auto cal anyway. 


--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on November 10, 2015, 07:35:51 pm ---
--- Quote ---- buggy user interfaces. one The 7000 and 7300  DSA's : spin the timebase knob too fast and the scope bluescreens... whoopdedoo. STILL not fixed after 10 years of complaining !
--- End quote ---

Of course the problem has been fixed, pretty much in one of the earlier Windows 2000 software releases.
--- End quote ---
I have never seen this and use the 7300.   I have not had a bluescreen on both my WR and WM.   Even with the added Ethernet board in the WM with it's SSD, it is rock solid.... After all the negative comments about the Ethernet I just figured I would throw that one in there.      :-DD   Well.  I guess that's not 100% true.  I did have to change the CMOS battery in the WM this summer.   


--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on November 10, 2015, 07:35:51 pm ---
--- Quote ---- bass ackwards functionality. Like store traces in memory , perform an acquisition , scroll and you lose time lock between memory and acquisition... duh !
--- End quote ---

Never noticed that, but considering that the other software issues you mentioned have been fixed long ago this could well be another case of outdated software.

BTW, these problems are not limited to LeCroy, I've seen more than my fair share of annoying and aggravating bugs on Agilent scopes as well. That's why the software can be updated.
--- End quote ---

We have some LeCroy somewhere at work that has some crazy UI.  I have never figured out where or what that thing was.   We bought a brand new one not too long ago.  What I would call a low end unit, not sure the model.  Looks nice and drove just fine.   

I have ran into problems with their software being buggy but these newer releases I must admit have been very nice.   Wish it was this stable when we bought the WP7300.   

One last thing I would like to mention is that Teledyne/LeCroy really has stepped up and helped me out.     

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