Let’s Talk About LeCroy Scopes, AKA… the “Wuerstchenhund Holds Court” Thread

[Martin72]

By the way, turning the channel to full bandwith changes nothing on the bandwith when Eres is +3bit on the channelmenu.

Asked lecroy support for this.
He wasn´t sure but he think it´s because of the avaible 20Mhz BW limit why eres in the channel menu is also limited to 20Mhz.
Then a nice explaination followed about the eres filter function, I think I post it here tomorrow, maybe it´s interesting.

[Verticon]

This wiggling (up and down, left and right) trace of the sinusoid signal on the display of the LeCroy scope is exactly the same artefact what I see on my DDA120(LC574-series). The scope has a bandwith of 1 GHz but the wiggling starts already at a few hundred MHz where the signal on another scope with much less bandwidth is absolutely stable. I was wondering about the reason for that and thought that it is probably a defect in the trigger section. But when I see it on an actual LeCroy model one could assume that this is LeCroy specific. It's hard to believe because in general the DDA120 is a very powerful scope.

[Martin72]

If you mean my posts, it´s a 20khz sinewave feeding into a little transformer, scope is on one of it´s secondary outputs.
Scope was a 12 bit lecroy with 350Mhz bandwith.
It´s a very small transformer so I must use micro testleads on his pins and then connect the probe on this leads - probably the reason for the disturbances on the sinewave signal.

[joeqsmith]

LeCroy is niche, or not. They are great for R&D, science folks, test... They are "scopes with analysis lab built in". If you need that, they are first choice, if you don't, than you don't...
I find them logical to setup, but I never was a button twiddler, more of a make plan first before doing something...
We are all different and have different needs..

My personal experience with LeCroy scopes have just been terrible. And yes, I know that LeCroy makes some amazing high end scopes for research but they are in a range of not affordable to normal businesses.

My understanding is that LeCroy oscilloscopes were originally descendant from high speed digitizers intended for the scientific research and nuclear weapon testing.  These applications require high speed, long record length, and unattended operation.  I think this is reflected in LeCroy preferring long record lengths while relying on post processing rather than real time processing during aquision.

I have noticed that modern oscilloscopes intended for use as automated test equipment also usually lack a responsive and easy to use front panel interface, as opposed to oscilloscopes intended for service work where the operator does not necessarily know what they are looking for, so a good interface is more important.

Old thread.   I still own four vintage LeCroy DSOs (7200, 7200A, 64xi & WM8500) and no other scopes.  The SSDs I was told were never going to hold up for more than a few weeks have now been active for 8 years.  Also, the 1G Ethernet card that was added to the WM has never given me any troubles.  I'm still not a fan of the Waveblunder but after 8 years, its starting to grow on me.  Since installing all new knobs, I only had one fall off once.  The plastic case continued to crumble to the point where the front of the unit was starting to fall apart.  My bench it seems is a harsh environment.  I ended up finding some gray plastic that I melted into the original along with a bit of silver paint, that doesn't match, to cover it up.   The electronic design was never a problem but the mechanics looks like it was done by people selling to Harbor Freight.   

The attached were taken from the 1990 catalog which provides some of the history. 

[hpw]

@Joe:  I still own four vintage LeCroy DSOs (7200, 7200A, 64xi & WM8500) and no other scopes.

I am at the same point, as looking for service manual WM8000A & and maintenance to made (cap's to replace, rotary encoders to replace, dust to remove inside, front bezel to replaced, calibration locally ...)  and in addition may adding additional SW options. Even possible to transfer the options them from dead to working DSO or even purchase them??

As they are from good parents so maintenance is as on an old Ferrari 

BTW: Just a warning to purchase them on ebay (and not only) as claimed warranty given but never able to provide, working what is not fully trough and even not cleaned sold at all. As it goes with LeCroy probes as required TIP's missing at all!!

[joeqsmith]

As they are from good parents so maintenance is as on an old Ferrari 

BTW: Just a warning to purchase them on ebay (and not only) as claimed warranty given but never able to provide, working what is not fully trough and even not cleaned sold at all. As it goes with LeCroy probes as required TIP's missing at all!!

I think they had told me that the 7200A that I bought was originally priced at 75.  It was their first PC based scope.  I gave it away but a friend gave me another.  I'm a LeCroy magnet.  I made a couple of videos where I was showing some of the repairs of what they had sent.     

[nctnico]

To be clear: Lecroy has re-used the 7200A model number for a 2GHz / 20Gs/s WavePro model.

[moerm]

Allow me as a still almost outsider to talk about what I saw here, in particular in this thread, but also to some degree generally.

I personally have an almost brutally pragmatic approach. Example: I don't ask or even care which instrument, let alone which brand, is "the best". I rather try to find out what the "best" for me and within a certain budget, "best" meaning some numbers (like WUR, Samplerate, etc), sure, but at least as importantly, (ideally all) the features I need.

LeCroy fell out of my scope (as in "what I looked at") for one simple reason: no MSO, at least not with a reasonable budget. Side note: I have a certain lab structure, mainly based on recognizing that there simply is no "perfect scope" and that I need to define a few kinds of tasks and then find the scope for those tasks, e.g. a "versatile bread and butter everyday scope" vs a higher end analysis scope.

One factor that I felt making it particularly difficult, also here, and well visible in this very thread here, is the "mine is superior to yours" also appearing in the form of "Brand X is the true/best instrument, period" but also in the form of "a scope without feature xyz is basically worthless".

But I also, not learned, but found again what I take to be human kinks out of control, e.g. a 10000+ post "heavyweight" in all seriousness putting some Rigol crap, uhm, stuff right next to professional quality gear.

And I also found (and disclose right away that I'm a fan) Wuerstchenhund who, the way I see it, is not trying to "sell" LeCroy scopes but likes them and seems to be on a (laudable) mission to remind the community that there is A-brand life outside of Tektronix and Agilent (pardon me, but I refuse to play their "use the most current name" game). And he seems to be a very knowledgeable man with plenty experience in the TME world - but, of bloody course, some seem to be incapable to let a brand they don't care about or simply dislike for whatever reason enjoying a bit light. It seems almost as if some reflex forced them to hit on any attempt by Wuerstechenhund.

I myself developed kind of a somewhat weak spot for LeCroy scopes but got seriously pi__ed off by their, so it seems, "we don't give a flying f_ck about small customers!" attitude. So, all in all, I'm certainly not a warrior for LeCroy. But one should be able to recognize and accept that they did some things damn right and/or well (e.g. their probe interface continuity).

Somewhat similarly I hear people over and over again say that Tektronix digital scopes are slow as snails - while a certain gentleman from down under seemed to almost have an orgasm when he introduced the new 2000 thingy.

Would it maybe be possible to (possibly in another and/or new thread) get reasonable and moderate, concrete experience based info on the Tek TDS7000 series, preferably without some Rigol fan taking a dump?
I'm asking because I wonder how the Wavepro 7300 and the Tek TDS7254 compare.
Sidenote: yes I've heard it, Tek digital scopes are snails - but is that really also true for kind of (former) high-end scopes? And, if so, how bad is it? I'm asking because such a scope, for me, would not be my everyday, go to scope but my north of 500 MHz (i.e. only occasionally used) and analysis scope, so while snail speed would not be OK, "cow with a lame leg" slow would be OK and with a max budget of about 4k or 5k for such a beast I'd not be a beggar but neither can I expect too much.

And no, I don't feel bad about possibly derailing this thread because a) it's pretty much dead anyway, and b) my point is not off-topic (WP 7300 is within topic I guess).

Thanks and have a nice sunday

[joeqsmith]

As for the MSO, my old scopes supported the MS-32.  This was made by NCI  GoLogic, GLUSB-36-1M-575.   You can find various flavors of this for cheap (<600 USD) but not the exact same one.   I've often wondered if they have anything proprietary in the one sold to LeCroy.   

Wuerstchenhund had tried to give me advice on the SSDs and the 1Gb interface claiming both would be problematic.   History has proven otherwise.   Good source but would rather if you don't know or unsure, don't present your claims as fact.   He is also the person who had suggested swapping the CPU in the WaveBlunder and claimed performance increase.  I don't think he ever presented any data and I never made the switch.     

Shame he left, but he was banned for some reason or another prior.   Guessing people were reporting him for some reason or another.  Doubt it was for bad advice as that would take out 100% of us.   They reactivated his account but seemed to mark the end of his posting.  Again, too bad IMO.   

[moerm]

@joeqsmith

Thank you.

"MS-32" I know but I seem to remember that only somewhat newer LeCroy scopes seem to have supported that device plus its price tag looked prohibitively high (but maybe I remember something wrong).

And yes, I know your story with Wuerstchenhund's advice, at least the basic line, and I agree; it seems his knowledge in that area was a bit off. But still, from what I looked at and found out (checking what he said generally about LeCroy scopes), modulo some details, I got a much clearer picture of LeCroy and their scopes.

Say, did you possibly happen to ever have had your fingers on (or, even better, played or worked with) a TDS7000? I'd really value your feedback. What would you consider to be a at least halfway reasonable alternative to a WP7300 within 4k to 5k$?

[joeqsmith]

My WaveBluner was made in 2006 and supports the MS-32.  I know my old WaveMaster supports it as well.   I have never seen one, let alone tried one.   Doing a search there is a used on listed on eBay now for 2k.  Several similar ones listed for $500.    With them LeCroy rebranding Siglent, you may be able to get something much better and lower cost.   I have zero experience with Siglent scopes. 

I had called him out about a comment he made about their first PC based scopes as my old 7200A used a standard PC 486DX motherboard which I believe was their actual first step into using a common PC platform.  Guessing he just didn't know the history.   It used PSOS, and maybe PC to him meant MS Windows.   Again just small misinformation which wasn't a problem.  Adds some color to the discussion.  But it seems he got into a few large battles with members.  I don't remember them ever posting anything political, religious.... that would have potentially led to their being banned.   

I have not used the Tektronix you mention and really have no idea about their support, if it could it be serviced, parts availability, manuals....  IMO, buying vintage high end equipment is a crap shoot.  Your 4-5k may not cover the repairs and service when you buy your "working" scope used.   And you may not be able to work a deal to have it shipped to the OEM for inspection as they may longer support it.  Even if it works when received, can you afford to buy a second one for parts to keep it running?  Lots of custom parts....    This is why I was wondering in the lower speeds, does it now make more sense to get something new.   

You could add a couple of zeros onto that and get a new WaveMaster with options.   I was looking at one for work.  They do seem nice. 

https://www.teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/wavemaster-hd

[moerm]

(re Wuerstchenhund) that would have potentially led to their being banned.   

I never saw an explanation either. But that may be due to lurking but not carefully reading any and all threads.
Whatever, it seems that at some later point in time he was allowed back, but seems to be much less active since. A bit sad, I always enjoyed reading his posts.

IMO, buying vintage high end equipment is a crap shoot.  Your 4-5k may not cover the repairs and service when you buy your "working" scope used.
...   
This is why I was wondering in the lower speeds, does it now make more sense to get something new.   

Yep, that's my view too, that buying vintage high end equipment is a bit like lottery.
That said, nope, I still prefer to go that route (for some instruments). One major reason being that older equipment usually was of significantly higher quality and mainly driven by engineers rather than "managers", or worse, by marketing and sales people (I want to stay polite ...).
Yes, some materials used back then, in particular plastics, it seems were lower quality, but still, all in all, one got a quality that seems hard to get nowadays with all the "a computer plus some slapped on analog stuff" equipment, profit optimized, of course.
And I have a (small) advantage: I don't care for anything north of 2.5 GHz (with scopes), nor do I run a show room (cracked front plate? So what, as long as that device works fine).

My major worry with Tektronix is their tendency to use proprietary chips etc. which nowadays are either ridiculously expensive or unobtainium plus they seem to have multiple waves of "bad luck" that is, crapacitors, whole board sections with bad soldering, etc.

Thank you again!

[tautech]

Wuerstchenhund initiated robust discussion based on his wide experience in the TE field as an advisor to professional purchase. There is little equipment he has not come in contact with or used.

Some could never look past his valuable input which brought complaints and eventually banning.
Later a group of supporters requested his reinstatement here which brings us to where things stand today.

Last I heard he had some talk of relocating which as we all know would be a considerable draw on any of his spare time hence little contribution here for a while.

Would be good to see him check in again......

[alm]

Would it maybe be possible to (possibly in another and/or new thread) get reasonable and moderate, concrete experience based info on the Tek TDS7000 series, preferably without some Rigol fan taking a dump?
I'm asking because I wonder how the Wavepro 7300 and the Tek TDS7254 compare.

I wonder how many people who use(d) a Tek TDS7000 scope you'll find in this topic . I'm pretty sure Wuerstchenhund wrote about the TDS7000 (though probably not in this topic). He was not a fan, if I remember correctly, and thought much higher of the Wavepro 7000 series. I have never used the TDS7000 series, so I can't comment.

I believe the TDS7000 series does not use standard BNC inputs, so be sure to budget for whatever adapters you might need (to 50 Ohm SMA/BNC/N or 1 MOhm BNC at reduced bandwidth) if you don't have four TekConnect probes.

[moerm]

... I'm pretty sure Wuerstchenhund wrote about the TDS7000 (though probably not in this topic). He was not a fan, if I remember correctly, and thought much higher of the Wavepro 7000 series. I have never used the TDS7000 series, so I can't comment.

A link would be helpful and welcome.

I believe the TDS7000 series does not use standard BNC inputs, so be sure to budget for whatever adapters you might need (to 50 Ohm SMA/BNC/N or 1 MOhm BNC at reduced bandwidth) if you don't have four TekConnect probes.

Yep that's my impression as well and highly likely the case; but maybe, just maybe only for the >= 4 GHz models.

Well, anyway it also has some desirable (to me anyway) advantages over the WP7000 (incl. a service manual, possibly even with schematics).

Thank you

[nctnico]

Wuerstchenhund initiated robust discussion based on his wide experience in the TE field as an advisor to professional purchase.

Not really. In the end he had to admit not having any hands-on experience / knowledge where it comes to the wide range of problems electronics and embedded firmware engineers need to deal with on a daily basis. Basically he just recommended Lecroy regardless based on his experience in a rather narrow field which just happened to fit Lecroy well (or people he bought equipment for just didn't care / know to look further to see if there is equipment which fits their use case better).

[alm]

A link would be helpful and welcome.

Is Google blocked in your country?

Here's some comments by Wuerstchenhund: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/recommendations-for-a-fast-(ghz)-scope/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-tektronix-3-series-mdo/100/
And here some more discussion about the TDS7000 series (not involving Wuerstchenhund): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tek-7404-4ghz-scope-on-ebay/